Meeting:Board meeting 2008-05-06

Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2008-05-06

Roll Call

Attendees: Everyone on #fedora-board-meeting

Discussion Summary

• Board answers community questions on:
• Fedora University Tour
• Fedora 9 features
• Marketing and PR
• Fedora in higher education
• Focus areas for next 6-12 months
• The Board voted to open #fedora channel on IRC to no longer require registration of nicks. This is seen as a major hurdle for new people who don't know anything about IRC. ACTION ITEM: Dennis Gilmore to survey needs on IRC in terms of fostering better care for new users (i.e. social needs) and assessing technical needs.

IRC Transcript

• Raw discussion is here

stickster	Welcome all to the IRC public Board meeting for May 2008.	06 May 14:05
stickster	The first meeting of each month is set aside for a public meeting so the community can ask Board members questions and get (mostly) realtime answers	06 May 14:05
stickster	Soon, we hope to do this in a slightly higher-bandwidth fashion via audio and Asterisk.	06 May 14:06
stickster	As I'm sure everyone will appreciate, our Infrastructure and Websites teams are busy working on making the Fedora 9 release superb.	06 May 14:06
stickster	To ask questions, join the #fedora-board-public channel, and spevack will take questions and funnel them here.	06 May 14:07
stickster	This channel is open to the public but only Board members have VOICE.	06 May 14:07
spevack	ready for questions?	06 May 14:07
stickster	The #fedora-board-public channel allows everyone to talk, pose questions, discuss, heckle, and so forth.	06 May 14:07
stickster	Bring it on!	06 May 14:07
stickster	:-)	06 May 14:07
--- mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) changed mode: +o spevack		06 May 14:07
--- mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) changed mode: +o stickster		06 May 14:07
spevack	from inode0: how was the university tour viewed in retrospect? didn't see much news about it lately.	06 May 14:08
spevack	inode0: while the Board types, I'll direct you here for one piece of news from the Red Hat Press Blog -- http://www.press.redhat.com/2008/04/25/fedora-returns-from-the-university-tour/	06 May 14:08
spevack	and if the Board wants me to comment more on the UT, I will be happy to	06 May 14:08
stickster	The Fedora University Tour was a very cool experiment our Community Architecture Team put together	06 May 14:09
--- caillon (n=caillon@75.147.7.113) changed topic: Fedora Project Board public IRC Meeting. Q&A session: Please direct questions to spevack in the #fedora-board-public channel.		06 May 14:09
mdomsch	spevack, be our guest	06 May 14:09
stickster	The purpose was to create more awareness of open source in computer science programs in schools around the nation	06 May 14:09
spevack	sure...	06 May 14:09
spevack	stickster: you go ahead for now	06 May 14:09
stickster	:-)	06 May 14:10
stickster	as well as to seed interest in Fedora specifically as an open source community, and to cultivate interest in students who form some of the upcoming FOSS superstar pool	06 May 14:10
notting	is there a way to pull some sort of stats as to new contributors gained during/as a result of the tour?	06 May 14:11
spevack	The university tour was led by Jack Aboutboul. We visited about 15 different schools throughout the US, with a few goals in mind. As Paul says, one was to find out what *students* are doing with Fedora, and second was to see what faculty members think about the readyness of open source curriculums in colleges	06 May 14:11
stickster	Jack Aboutboul went on a multi-city, multi-school journey and you can see some of his other posts at http://fedorauniversity.wordpress.com/	06 May 14:11
spevack	There are several leads that were particularly interesting that came out of this tour, and that we need to follow up on.	06 May 14:12
spevack	In the next month or two, we'll be doing that.	06 May 14:12
stickster	notting: Jack is working on doing just that, as mentioned in the Community Architecture meeting notes: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture/Meetings/2008-04-28	06 May 14:12
spevack	In particular, there was a lot of interest at Carnegie Mellon, Syracuse, and Oregon State.	06 May 14:12
spevack	stickster: there have been 2 follow up questions	06 May 14:13
spevack	the first -- was it viewed as a success, and are future tours planned?	06 May 14:13
spevack	I'm happy to take that question -- I think that we view it as a successful lead-generation device at this point.	06 May 14:13
spevack	the amount of energy that we have discovered, compared to the few thousand dollars that we spent on it, was a good investment.	06 May 14:14
stickster	Yes, I would like to see it move outward to other geographic areas	06 May 14:14
spevack	The next few months, which is the follow up phase, will determine true success or failure	06 May 14:14
spevack	but if/when we do greenlight a second, we will probably look to do it outside of the US.	06 May 14:14
spevack	the next question, related, is from emilyr	06 May 14:14
dgilmore	spevack: i have a contact at Bradley i need to put you or gregdek in contact with	06 May 14:14
stickster	oops, hang on	06 May 14:14
spevack	Does openly available curricula for using linux and or fedora in university classes exist?	06 May 14:15
spevack		06 May 14:15
* spevack waits now for the typers to catch up		06 May 14:15
stickster	This was somewhat of a trial for this idea, and the community should expect to see more media (blog entries, external press, etc.) generated next time.	06 May 14:15
stickster	Hi emilyr	06 May 14:17
stickster	We have a couple of these kind of curricula in testing/development	06 May 14:17
stickster	NCSU has one: http://courses.ncsu.edu/csc591w/	06 May 14:17
stickster	The other we are working on with Seneca College in Toronto, Canada	06 May 14:17
dgilmore	spevack: id like for us to make sure that we have course work that schools can pick up and run with.	06 May 14:18
dgilmore	stickster: ^^^^	06 May 14:18
spevack	dgilmore: i agree. the coursework coming out of NCSU is being developed by a RH engineer, and gregdek is taking a role in it also.	06 May 14:19
stickster	yes, all this should be produced under a OSS compatible license	06 May 14:19
dgilmore	for instance i was asked at Bradley if id be willing to help them write courses around open source. for proposal. which was then followed by would you be willing to teach the courses	06 May 14:19
stickster	If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the ground rules	06 May 14:19
stickster	There are probably opportunities to have this included in the MIT OpenCourseware offerings, too.	06 May 14:20
dgilmore	is there conferences for university educators? should we have a presence at them?	06 May 14:20
spevack	dgilmore: Greg and Michael Tiemann spoke at CSEET in Charleston a few weeks ago.	06 May 14:21
spevack	it's a conference focusing on education	06 May 14:21
spevack	software engineering education, specifically	06 May 14:21
dgilmore	:)	06 May 14:21
spevack	sponsored by the IEEE	06 May 14:21
spevack	so the takeaway that I'm getting here is that we need to make some more noise publicly about what we are doing in the education realm.	06 May 14:22
stickster	dgilmore: I'll be going to the FSOSS conference in Toronto in October, as well.	06 May 14:22
dgilmore	spevack: yep. and we need to do more.	06 May 14:22
stickster	.http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2007/ <-- old 2007 page, 2008 not yet up	06 May 14:22
stickster	I'd encourage the other Board members to talk about any contact they have with higher education	06 May 14:23
stickster	And let's not forget this sort of work can start early.	06 May 14:23
spoleeba	spevack, make noise...and we need to get a good feel for what prevents people from doing an open curriculum	06 May 14:23
spoleeba	spevack, there could be common institutional roadblocks	06 May 14:23
stickster	spoleeba: I wonder what subset of those problems have already been faced (and/or conquered) by MIT	06 May 14:23
mdomsch	I know a prof at St. Louis U that is looking at barriers to open source usage among the staff	06 May 14:24
stickster	I went to a county-level information technology expo and used that opportunity to talk to instructors and administrators one-on-one about FOSS	06 May 14:24
spoleeba	stickster, I wouldnt stand up MIT as.. typical	06 May 14:24
stickster	spoleeba: Certainly if there are worries about course licensing, they won't be that different from MIT to the next university, though.	06 May 14:24
stickster	There are certainly a large set of issues that are common to all higher education.	06 May 14:25
spoleeba	stickster, i dont think educators...think about licensing	06 May 14:25
stickster	spoleeba: Err... isn't that what I said?	06 May 14:25
dgilmore	spevack: we should not ignore high school either. however we might be best started by getting university classes for computer educators. so that people feel more confident to teach FOSS in high school's	06 May 14:25
spoleeba	dgilmore, high schools will have even more aggressive institutional roadblocks i think	06 May 14:26
spevack	dgilmore: one our our summer interns for Fedora will be a high school student from NC School of Science and Math, FWIW. NEW QUESTION from emilyr: what are some of the major issues that Board candidates are focusing on this election? And my own addition: or what topics do current Board members think are important for the next 6-12 months of Fedora?	06 May 14:26
stickster	dgilmore: The one problem we'll run into in high schools -- and this isn't saying we *shouldn't* do so, just a barrier we should be aware of -- is the lack of resources that come with being a locally tax-funded institution.	06 May 14:26
spevack	whenever the board is ready for a new topic, there it is :)	06 May 14:26
spoleeba	stickster, inertia...and the ability to tie in to existing technology infrastructure that may exist...smart boards and crap	06 May 14:26
dgilmore	spoleeba: yes. but working in, by having teachers comming out of college. with knowledge and confidence in teaching FOSS should help	06 May 14:27
stickster	OK, let's move on	06 May 14:27
spevack	NEW QUESTION from emilyr: what are some of the major issues that Board candidates are focusing on this election? And my own addition: or what topics do current Board members think are important for the next 6-12 months of Fedora?	06 May 14:27
spevack		06 May 14:27
* spevack quiets down now		06 May 14:27
skvidal	fixing codeina	06 May 14:27
spoleeba		06 May 14:27
* spoleeba hides		06 May 14:27
mdomsch	one theme I see in the new candidates is finding new ways to get new (types of) people into Feodra	06 May 14:27
stickster	Let's keep in mind that not all Board candidates (1) have been announced, or (2) are present	06 May 14:27
skvidal	helping drop the barriers to contributing to fedora - that's mostly solved but needs better publicity, I think	06 May 14:28
spoleeba	skvidal, we have the click through cla in place?	06 May 14:28
stickster	We should really allow everyone to weigh in by populating the Board Nominations page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations	06 May 14:28
skvidal	and we can, later.	06 May 14:28
stickster	skvidal: I think there's plenty more to do with respect to barriers.	06 May 14:28
dgilmore		06 May 14:28
* dgilmore wants to focus on enabling people to scratch their itches		06 May 14:28
stickster	I see a lot of those problems are being solved by the Infra and Websites teams, steady progress every day.	06 May 14:29
stickster	The new wiki will help.	06 May 14:29
stickster	So will other FAS2-compatible sites.	06 May 14:29
dgilmore		06 May 14:29
* dgilmore will still work on that even if not re-elected		06 May 14:29
skvidal	stickster: yes - but not entirely solved, and they need to be the focii for the next release cycle	06 May 14:29
spoleeba	what's important.... positioning SIGS as self-reliant entities as much as possible. So SIGs can scope their own work, and actively recruit from outside our community to meet the needs of that work	06 May 14:29
stickster	skvidal: +1 that	06 May 14:29
dgilmore	skvidal: and single signon everywhere :)	06 May 14:30
mdomsch	re publicity: the ambassadors have been doing a great job representing Fedora t events worldwide	06 May 14:30
stickster	I expect that by Fedora 10 release, most if not all our web properties should be tied into FAS2, for instance, so when someone joins with our new, easy click-through process, they immediately get wiki access, website access, maybe blog space, pushbutton inclusion in the planet, who knows.	06 May 14:30
skvidal	dgilmore: s/single/seldom/	06 May 14:30
skvidal	stickster: blog space sounds like doom, imo - but sure	06 May 14:31
stickster	spoleeba: The SIGs are going to be especially important when it comes to getting ISVs and others involved in Fedora & EPEL	06 May 14:31
stickster	skvidal: pessimist :-P	06 May 14:31
stickster	:-D	06 May 14:31
spoleeba	its pretty difficult to recruit new people at the general project level. So as we lower the barriers to entry we need to make it easier for the groups within the larger project to go out and actively pull people in	06 May 14:31
skvidal	stickster: realist :)	06 May 14:31
stickster	ISV, by the way == "independent software vendor" for anyone here who's not in the biz.	06 May 14:32
stickster	Heck, I barely knew until I joined Red Hat.	06 May 14:32
caillon	emilyr, the things I'd like to see are: getting more contributors. how can we bolster the triage, testing communities for example? we could also use more people on the website, too. also, I'd like to see more focus on getting upstreams to package in fedora, and to make it easier for people to jump in and contribute. oh, and codec buddy and desktop experience. :)	06 May 14:32
skvidal	caillon: I believe calling it codec buddy will get you cursed thrice by thomasvs	06 May 14:33
spoleeba	caillon, we have to have a recruitment and retention framework	06 May 14:33
--- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v steved		06 May 14:33
spoleeba	caillon, within which SIGs can participate	06 May 14:33
caillon	skvidal, maybe he can forgive me since i voted to keep it in ;)	06 May 14:33
skvidal	caillon: :)	06 May 14:33
steved	sorry I'm late...	06 May 14:33
stickster	Steve Dickson, everyone! Give him a big hand....	06 May 14:34
stickster	*applause*	06 May 14:34
notting	emilyr - i think we need to figure out (as caillon mentioned) how to get people into QA, triage, etc. we're historically very understaffed on those tasks, and getting more focus there can only help	06 May 14:34
caillon	spoleeba, yeah, absolutely	06 May 14:34
dgilmore		06 May 14:34
* dgilmore *ROARS*		06 May 14:34
mdomsch	I'm happy to see more cvsextras sponsors self-nominating	06 May 14:35
mdomsch	it's encouraging to see that group want to expand further which will help new contributors too	06 May 14:35
caillon	i think we've done a great job with getting engineering contributions. (though more is always welcome). but not so much with getting a lot of other contributors. and i don't mean to diminish the work that people are doing on testing, website, docs, etc. but they could use some help.	06 May 14:35
dgilmore		06 May 14:35
* dgilmore thinks we need to get some vocal supporters in the media, etc. People that can help get and keep fedora on users minds		06 May 14:35
spoleeba	caillon, im still interested in find SIGs interested in experimenting with a focused recruitment week, that we can make noise about and match walkins with an appropriate SIG	06 May 14:36
dgilmore	caillon: indeed	06 May 14:36
mdomsch	sjvn :-)	06 May 14:36
caillon	spoleeba, sign me up. I'm there.	06 May 14:36
spevack	stickster: I'll invent my own follow up question here, but perhaps this would be a good time to tell folks about the press work that is going on around Fedora 9, the interviews, press kits, etc.	06 May 14:36
dgilmore	spevack, stickster: please tell	06 May 14:37
spevack		06 May 14:37
* spevack wants to moderate a Fedora Board Election debate between candidates :)		06 May 14:37
stickster	"I know Bill Nottingham. Bill Nottingham is a friend of mine... and Jef Spaleta, you're no Bill Nottingham."	06 May 14:38
spoleeba	spevack, i will subvert such a 'debate' into a consensus building discussion	06 May 14:38
stickster	So about press work.	06 May 14:38
stickster	We are using the Fedora 9 launch as a means to improve the openness and vigor of our Fedora Marketing teamwork	06 May 14:39
stickster	We have participation from people both inside Red Hat and from the greater community of volunteers	06 May 14:39
stickster	Starting at FUDCon back in January	06 May 14:39
dgilmore	:)	06 May 14:40
stickster	we put together thematic points that would help us unify messages about Fedora.	06 May 14:40
stickster	We've used those themes to build talking points for use by Ambassadors and other community members when they talk about Fedora	06 May 14:40
stickster	We've leveraged the excellent progress John Poelstra (poelcat) made on the feature process	06 May 14:41
stickster	Turning that into an easy way to rattle off the many great features in Fedora 9	06 May 14:41
stickster	We've integrated points about some of the work our community has done this cycle	06 May 14:41
stickster	including Artwork	06 May 14:41
stickster	KDE 4	06 May 14:41
stickster	and one of my favorite stories...	06 May 14:41
stickster	ROBOT SOCCER PLAYERS!	06 May 14:42
spoleeba	robotic telescopes are better	06 May 14:42
stickster	spoleeba: hush	06 May 14:42
stickster	:-D	06 May 14:42
caillon	robots that build robots are still better	06 May 14:42
stickster	All of this is a framework for doing a new kind of marketing, "open marketing" if you will	06 May 14:42
stickster	we have participation from a more-or-less dedicated team member on the Red Hat press team	06 May 14:43
stickster	She is helping us maximize our impact	06 May 14:43
stickster	by tying us into all the important press contacts cultivated at Red Hat.	06 May 14:43
stickster	This week I'm currently doing a pretty startling number of press interviews about Fedora 9	06 May 14:43
spoleeba	stickster, just dont tell people it cures cancer..i want that to be a surprise	06 May 14:44
stickster	And the impressive thing about all this cooperative work in Fedora Marketing is that it makes these interviews really easy!	06 May 14:44
stickster	I think people are going to see an enormous amount of press around Fedora 9	06 May 14:44
stickster	But...	06 May 14:44
stickster	and this is ***VERY IMPORTANT***....	06 May 14:44
stickster	We still need EVERYONE'S help	06 May 14:45
stickster	When you see stories, digg them.	06 May 14:45
stickster	Send them to friends.	06 May 14:45
stickster	Bubble this information up in the online newspool.	06 May 14:45
stickster	We've also sent Live USB devices out to the press	06 May 14:46
stickster	for the first time this release cycle.	06 May 14:46
stickster	So they can actually put their hands on the distro and try it before, during, or after the interview.	06 May 14:46
stickster	Our art team helped Max make a spiffy one-sheet to go with it, and it has plenty of opportunity for follow-up contact.	06 May 14:46
stickster	One thing I would like to see us continually improve is the way we deal with press outlets.	06 May 14:47
stickster	It's easy to respond to news blogs with "You got this wrong"...	06 May 14:47
spevack	One more question for the Board, whenever you want it, inspired by a comment in -public.	06 May 14:47
stickster	But if we can turn that instead into "I see where you may not know about XYZ... would you like to have an interview with a Fedora leader to talk about it?"	06 May 14:47
stickster	*that* is a big win PR-wise.	06 May 14:47
stickster	EOF	06 May 14:48
stickster	(finally)	06 May 14:48
spevack	stickster: +1 to that	06 May 14:48
spevack	and on a directly related note	06 May 14:48
spevack	a comment in -public was that the link you sent to the tact filter page was really useful	06 May 14:48
spevack	and here's my question.	06 May 14:48
spevack	Would someone on the board be willing to look into how well or poorly we are treating people who come into #fedora with questions, comments, etc.	06 May 14:48
spevack	that's the first point of contact for many.	06 May 14:48
spevack	and I wonder what the culture of #fedora is like these days.	06 May 14:49
dgilmore	spevack: sure, i would be willing to	06 May 14:49
stickster	spevack: That's an EXCELLENT question.	06 May 14:49
stickster	dgilmore: Thank you sir	06 May 14:49
skvidal	okay	06 May 14:49
spoleeba	the culture is the same as it ever was	06 May 14:49
skvidal	wit hthat in mind	06 May 14:49
skvidal	here's the first thing	06 May 14:49
skvidal	we stop the registered-only and non-root thing in #fedora	06 May 14:49
stickster	spoleeba: That bad?	06 May 14:50
spoleeba	maybe how the channel works or doesn't is my fault	06 May 14:50
spoleeba	stickster, bad? i dont know if its bad...its consistent	06 May 14:50
skvidal	stickster: it's a harsh place for someone who is new	06 May 14:50
stickster	And that is appalling.	06 May 14:50
skvidal	stickster: do this - boot the livecd	06 May 14:51
skvidal	stickster: login	06 May 14:51
spevack	May 13th would be a good deadline for trying to get some quick fixes made to that room	06 May 14:51
skvidal	stickster: try to go ask a question in #fedora	06 May 14:51
spoleeba	stickster, if its going to change..its going to require an affirmative effort by a group of people committed to upholding a certain level of discourse....and one or two of those people need to be active in channel all the time	06 May 14:51
skvidal	I've done this test in the past	06 May 14:51
skvidal	1. IF you can get past trying to attach to the channel AT ALL	06 May 14:52
skvidal	2. then you normally will be either ignored or abused	06 May 14:52
mdomsch	1) we can solve technically	06 May 14:52
skvidal	yes	06 May 14:52
mdomsch	2) we have to solve in person	06 May 14:52
stickster	So dgilmore, I think this means you have a mandate for recruiting.	06 May 14:52
spoleeba	stickster, meaning... office hourse	06 May 14:52
stickster	spoleeba: I can do those. Who's with me?	06 May 14:53
notting	is there any way to change the behavior of *existing* people in those channels? do we have any carrots/sticks?	06 May 14:53
dgilmore	spot: can you please give me op in #fedora	06 May 14:53
skvidal	notting: silence	06 May 14:53
spoleeba	stickster, i can't commit to specific hours...im in there all the time..but i can't commit to a speecific time	06 May 14:53
caillon	stickster, yeah, sounds good	06 May 14:53
stickster	spoleeba: Being in there "a lot" should count.	06 May 14:53
stickster	notting: I think to change that behavior we first need to identify the trouble areas/people.	06 May 14:54
spevack	Is there any reason not to remove the "you have to be registered to go into #fedora" requirement?	06 May 14:54
spevack	couldn't we do that today?	06 May 14:54
stickster	spevack: Wasn't skvidal saying that's done?	06 May 14:54
skvidal	no, I wasn't	06 May 14:54
skvidal	I said it should be done	06 May 14:54
stickster	Oh I see.	06 May 14:54
stickster	sorry.	06 May 14:54
spevack	i think he was advocating that it *should* be done	06 May 14:54
skvidal	and the non-root thing, too	06 May 14:54
skvidal	I understand	06 May 14:54
skvidal	irc'ing as root is bad/dangerous/etc	06 May 14:54
skvidal	except that some people get lost	06 May 14:55
caillon	remove the restrictions	06 May 14:55
dgilmore	skvidal: perhaps send a message if the user is root to warn why its bad if we can	06 May 14:55
spoleeba	stickster, you also need to craft an affirmative manifesto that underlines what people commit to when they sign up for office hours... just re-write the boy scout pledge or something	06 May 14:55
skvidal	and the message from freenode about that is completely obscure	06 May 14:55
dgilmore	buit allow them to seek help	06 May 14:55
spevack		06 May 14:55
* spevack presses the board for a vote on this relatively up or down question :)		06 May 14:55
skvidal	dgilmore: it does - but it gets lost in all the other garbage	06 May 14:55
spoleeba	skvidal, you gonna remove the root bans as well	06 May 14:55
stickster	dgilmore: skvidal: Right, an automessage that *makes sense* to new people.	06 May 14:55
spoleeba	skvidal, ?	06 May 14:55
caillon	spevack, kill the restrictions. open it up.	06 May 14:55
notting	caillon: +1	06 May 14:55
stickster	caillon: +1	06 May 14:55
skvidal	caillon: +1	06 May 14:55
dgilmore	+1	06 May 14:55
stickster	Oh wait, I don't get to vote.	06 May 14:55
mdomsch	+1	06 May 14:55
skvidal	stickster: the message gets lost in the garbage from xchat/freenode	06 May 14:55
caillon	stickster, well you don't know that. we might deadlock on it. :P	06 May 14:56
stickster	skvidal: true enough -- is it not possible to institute a bot to do this?	06 May 14:56
spevack	so who's the admin of #fedora? let's drop the restrictions right now.	06 May 14:56
stickster	I thin spot is.	06 May 14:56
mdomsch	stickster, yes, a bot that sends a message is what you want	06 May 14:56
stickster	*think	06 May 14:56
spoleeba	skvidal, better have the specific instructions for what ops are suppose to do when a bot attacks..	06 May 14:56
stickster	spot: Why lookee who's here!	06 May 14:56
skvidal	spoleeba: ban the bots	06 May 14:56
caillon	spoleeba, kickban?	06 May 14:56
mdomsch	spot is one; |Jef| is another	06 May 14:57
spevack		06 May 14:57
* spevack has another meeting at 3:00 PM, so he will leave the Board to wrap up this IRC session itself. Thanks all!		06 May 14:57
skvidal	mdomsch: bots? yah true	06 May 14:57
spoleeba	caillon, like i said... office hours	06 May 14:57
caillon	spoleeba, we could also have a bot which does that	06 May 14:57
stickster	mdomsch: Can we voice spot so he can respond here?	06 May 14:57
spoleeba	caillon, cuz that a 30 minute commitment :->	06 May 14:57
--- mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) changed mode: +v spot		06 May 14:57
spoleeba	caillon, you have a bot that can tell a human user from a bot user? without requring registration?	06 May 14:57
stickster	spot: You can respond if needed	06 May 14:57
spot	i will drop the restrictions on #fedora now.	06 May 14:58
skvidal	thanks	06 May 14:58
stickster	spot: Thank you!	06 May 14:58
caillon	spoleeba, you can have a bot check for the most annoying of behaviors, like flooding.	06 May 14:58
dgilmore	thanks spot	06 May 14:58
spoleeba	caillon, that was sort of the reason why the registation was put in place.. to make it harder for bots to storm in for an hour at a time...if memory serves	06 May 14:58
caillon	spoleeba, also bots tend to have certain sigs they post. there's a db of them around somewhere surely	06 May 14:59
caillon	it won't be a perfect system but it would be better than nothing.	06 May 14:59
mdomsch	some additional volunteer keepers-of-the-peace could be put on the room's access list	06 May 14:59
mdomsch	to hand things if/when spot is offline	06 May 15:00
stickster	We should be careful to avoid stepping on people's right to speak their mind	06 May 15:00
caillon	also, i'm up at bizarro hours a lot, etc.	06 May 15:00
mdomsch	stickster, I was thinking about bot control	06 May 15:00
mdomsch	more so than people control	06 May 15:00
stickster	mdomsch: Yes, I was musing out loud	06 May 15:01
skvidal	caillon: know anyone in brno who wants to be an irc op :)	06 May 15:01
stickster	Oh, good call	06 May 15:01
caillon	skvidal, they probably all would WANT to ;)	06 May 15:01
skvidal	caillon: let me rephrase - know anyone in brno YOU would want to be an irc op?	06 May 15:01
caillon	i can come up with a few names, though. i'll ask them off line to see if they'd want to	06 May 15:02
skvidal	maybe brisbane has some nice folks, too	06 May 15:02
skvidal	or pune	06 May 15:02
caillon	yeah	06 May 15:02
stickster	Brilliant	06 May 15:02
skvidal	then we can cover the various tz's by people who would already be on irc	06 May 15:02
skvidal	mether is in pune, right? maybe he knows some folks who can keep an eye pon things	06 May 15:02
spoleeba	caillon, you need to reach out to the current ops on the channel	06 May 15:03
dgilmore	spoleeba: some of them i know are no longer involved in fedora	06 May 15:03
spoleeba	caillon, but there needs to be some sort statement concerning the level of commitment being asked for in the new world order	06 May 15:03
spoleeba	dgilmore, i meant the ones who are active in channel	06 May 15:03
mdomsch	msg chanserv access #fedora list to see	06 May 15:03
notting	should this be a SIG? the fedora-help-new-users SIG?	06 May 15:06
* stickster notes there are no more questions		06 May 15:06
spoleeba	notting, actually that might be best... since its more than just #fedora	06 May 15:06
skvidal		06 May 15:06
* skvidal would be in favor of a 'join irc' button on the desktop		06 May 15:06
skvidal	and having it go to #fedora-help	06 May 15:06
skvidal	rather than #fedora	06 May 15:06
spoleeba	notting, #fedora is just a tool... how its meant to be used needs to have some context	06 May 15:07
skvidal	and-or rename #fedora to #fedora-social	06 May 15:07
spoleeba	skvidal, ximian had that	06 May 15:07
skvidal	and fwd #fedora to #fedora-help	06 May 15:07
skvidal	spoleeba: yes, I know	06 May 15:07
spoleeba	skvidal, in fact... i started doing irc stuff using xim's button	06 May 15:07
skvidal	so we know who to blame	06 May 15:07
skvidal	how nice	06 May 15:07
mdomsch	F10 feature!	06 May 15:07
skvidal		06 May 15:08
* skvidal sends a poison pin letter to the kind folks at former-ximian		06 May 15:08
mdomsch	but will it fit in the XFCE spin? :-)	06 May 15:08
skvidal	I personall blame luis villa	06 May 15:08
spoleeba	skvidal, to be perfectly honest... i think a new channel.. makes for the best fresh start..if we need to fix channel culture	06 May 15:08
mdomsch	I don't see a huge culture problem on fedora-list	06 May 15:08
skvidal	mdomsch: just a volume problem?	06 May 15:08
mdomsch	I wonder why #fedora would be that much different. Different people?	06 May 15:09
mdomsch	it's more acceptable to flame on IRC than email?	06 May 15:09
skvidal	mdomsch: forum + anonymity == asshole?	06 May 15:09
skvidal	mdomsch: lemme find the penny arcard formulation of that	06 May 15:09
* stickster has hard stop at 3:30 but here for duration otherwise		06 May 15:10
stickster	Hm, #fedora-help is owned	06 May 15:10
skvidal	http://tcritic.com/archives/internet-dickwad-theory-from-penny-arcade/	06 May 15:10
skvidal	there you go	06 May 15:10
spoleeba	mdomsch, its a combination of things	06 May 15:11
spoleeba	mdomsch, irc tends to be more panicked...since its syncronous communication	06 May 15:11
mdomsch	stickster, yes, but last used 3 years 36 weeks ago	06 May 15:11
skvidal	you can even get it on a tshirt	06 May 15:11
skvidal	http://www.pennyarcademerch.com/pat070381.html	06 May 15:11
dgilmore	stickster: by Thomaz	06 May 15:11
spoleeba	mdomsch, lists you have more time to think	06 May 15:12
stickster	mdomsch: True enough	06 May 15:12
stickster	mdomsch: Is there anyway to reclaim orphaned channels?	06 May 15:12
spoleeba	mdomsch, and even review what you write..before sending..if it was written emotionally	06 May 15:12
dgilmore	stickster: lets speak with free node staff	06 May 15:12
stickster	I could ask the Freenode staff I'm srue	06 May 15:12
stickster	dgilmore: *jinx	06 May 15:12
mdomsch	jeremy?	06 May 15:12
--- mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) changed mode: +v jeremy		06 May 15:12
spoleeba	mdomsch, unless you make a real effort to approach a conversation in irc, in a formal and courtesy manner, informal and emotional communication can dominate and be misinterpreted	06 May 15:13
stickster	spoleeba: Boiling down to: 1. Stop. 2. Think. 3. Type.	06 May 15:14
spoleeba	stickster, harder to do in irc	06 May 15:14
* stickster prepares to get out his "golden rule" sermon, then thinks better of it and puts it away.		06 May 15:14
skvidal	stickster: doesn't work for me	06 May 15:14
skvidal	stickster: I don't mind people being mean to me, it gives me more reason to be mean back	06 May 15:14
spoleeba	stickster, when people want answers to why their system doesnt boot..and if they dont get answers within 1 minute..they leave	06 May 15:14
skvidal	:)	06 May 15:14
stickster	skvidal: You always foil my plans	06 May 15:14
skvidal	stickster: and my stupid dog	06 May 15:15
skvidal	and those meddling kids	06 May 15:15
* stickster puts skvidal on #fedora-help kickban list		06 May 15:15
stickster	But lest I derail the conversation....	06 May 15:15
skvidal	stickster: no one has ever confused me w/a tech support person	06 May 15:15
spoleeba	stickster, #fedora is like a fast food drive-up window for system help	06 May 15:15
stickster	spoleeba: understood.	06 May 15:16
stickster	I've been around it enough to see how it works	06 May 15:16
stickster	But regardless, some of the escalation I see in there from people who should know better is, frankly, sad.	06 May 15:16
stickster	I think one of the cardinal expectations should be, if you're getting tired of answering people's questions politely, LEAVE. It's OK.	06 May 15:17
spoleeba	stickster, which is why i think affirmative office hours would help..put people in the right mental frame...	06 May 15:17
stickster	spoleeba: totally agree.	06 May 15:17
spoleeba	stickster, and it gives us a way to reward effort in the area..by tracking who's signing up and doing well	06 May 15:18
notting	fedora help, 5 cents. the doctor is [ in ]	06 May 15:18
skvidal	notting: yes b/c lucy was excellent support	06 May 15:18
notting	skvidal: they come running up to view the video and we pull the codecs away	06 May 15:18
skvidal	:)	06 May 15:19
stickster	notting: correct answers, $1,000,000 3_/-:	06 May 15:19
caillon	yeah. mozilla (used to?) give out tshirts when people started contributing in a meaningful way, which could include just being useful on irc to new users or doing triage work, etc	06 May 15:19
* stickster senses this topic is disintegrating fast.		06 May 15:19
mdomsch	Schroeder, don't you think my fedora blue dress is pretty?	06 May 15:19
skvidal	stickster: really? why do you say that	06 May 15:19
skvidal	okay	06 May 15:20
skvidal	I think we're done	06 May 15:20
skvidal	can I get a +1?	06 May 15:20
mdomsch	+1	06 May 15:20
dgilmore		06 May 15:20
* dgilmore says wrap it up		06 May 15:20
caillon	skvidal, sounds like one of those songs on the radio these days	06 May 15:20
caillon		06 May 15:21
* caillon shakes his +1s in the air like he just don't care		06 May 15:21
skvidal	caillon: you mean it sounds like crap?	06 May 15:21
stickster	♩♪♬♫	06 May 15:21
notting	any other questions from the channel?	06 May 15:21
skvidal	okay - I'm going to change locations	06 May 15:21
stickster	notting: They all left long ago. :-)	06 May 15:21
skvidal	back in a few minutes	06 May 15:21
stickster	I'll take care of the log.	06 May 15:22
stickster	Thanks, everyone, and bye	06 May 15:22

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