SIGs/Education/Meetings/2008-04-25

sdziallas	hi all!
sdziallas	so, who is here for the education sig meeting?
* rdieter here
sdziallas	warren, gregdek ping
sdziallas	anybody else?
sdziallas	okay not very effective, but here we go
sdziallas	maybe we should talk about the education spin and collaboration with K12LTSP?!
sdziallas	i have uploaded a possible kickstart file for a spin to the wiki
rdieter	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin ?
sdziallas	yes!
sdziallas	i tried to get some of the most important educational apps in
sdziallas	but basically, it's just kdeedu, blender and scribus
rdieter	What qualifies as an "educational" app?
WhiteNitro	Hello - Bryant Patten here for education sig meeting - sorry about being tardy - phone meeting overrun
sdziallas	Hi
sdziallas	rdieter: well, i went through the repos and created a first draft list (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Apps)
rdieter	ah, thx.
sdziallas	whitenitro: we were just talking about the spin and educational apps (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin)
rdieter	seems very open-ended and overly broad perhaps, hard to quantify what's best to include or not.
rdieter	esp if you're limiting yourself to a livecd (or not?)
sdziallas	yeah... that's true...
rdieter	For example, perhaps something to consider omitting would be games (otoh, there do exist educational games).
sdziallas	+1
sdziallas	i think we cannot put everything on a livecd
sdziallas	IMHO, such a cd might be used for an quick overview of edu-apps and might e.g. be handled out by a teacher to his students
sdziallas	but we cannot include everything
rdieter	maybe try to focus on 1, 2, or 3 main areas, and make sure to do them well. For example, math/science.
rdieter	at least as a first try.
WhiteNitro	Is it a given that OpenOffice suite is included - in case teachers wanted to send home assignments in ODF?
rdieter	WhiteNitro: ooo is too big.
sdziallas	sounds like a beginning
WhiteNitro	Abiword?
sdziallas	i had abiword in it
rdieter	abiword or kword would be better.
sdziallas	but for f9, my first tries using gnome (and abiword) become way too big
sdziallas	now there are kword, kspread, and kpresenter in it
sdziallas	it's just my problem, that an default gnome desktop (without all the software - just the basics and gnome) ist still about 550 MB
sdziallas	and then, I'm not able to include kdeedu anymore
rdieter	yeah, basic os/desktop, be it gnome or kde, takes a majority of the space on a livecd, not much room for additional apps.
WhiteNitro	Is a live DVD a possibility (advance apologies is that is a newbie question)?
rdieter	WhiteNitro: no, I was about to suggest considering just that.
sdziallas	well, I'd normally recommend a dvd... we had a discussion on FDL on this some time ago
rdieter	there's a hard trade off here: the ease/simplicity of using cd-sized, vs. the flexibility of the additional space using >700MB image.
WhiteNitro	Because the ability for a teacher to hand out a disk at the beginning of the year that contains all the apps for the year would be great.
sdziallas	that makes some sense
WhiteNitro	One that doesn't required installing on the home machine would be a complete homerun.
rdieter	WhiteNitro: I think for that to be possible, serious thought has to be put into narrowing the spin's focus, it can't be everything for everybody.
WhiteNitro	Or perhaps some kind of image for a 2GB or 4GB flash drive - bootable or portable apps sort of thing
WhiteNitro	I was thinking a focus on K-12 education
WhiteNitro	maybe a set of apps for K-6, and 7-12
WhiteNitro	But I hadn't thought through domain specific spins (math, science, etc)
sdziallas	well... my first idea were age-specific spins, too
rdieter	right, focus on 1 or 2 domains initially, would be my suggestion.
sdziallas	but domain specific makes also sense, too
sdziallas	but there is a major problem:
sdziallas	as you may have noticed, we had some havy discussions on spins on FAB and FDL
sdziallas	and there is now a spin sig
sdziallas	bit i really don't know, how many spins we could provide using the fedora infrastructure
rdieter	that's a good question, but a separate issue, imo.
rdieter	without narrower focus, the edu spin as-is would likely be of limitted interest to anyone.
WhiteNitro	A parallel problem is that if you force teachers or tech people to decide which of dozens of spins they need, you will lose them as well
WhiteNitro	"For this lesson plan, you need the software on Spin 17A ...."
rdieter	WhiteNitro: yes and no, edu-sig needs to reach out to folks not currently satisified, to find out what they want/need, and help them get what they want.
WhiteNitro	True
sdziallas	so we need to make some advertisement and ask the people for their opinions?!
WhiteNitro	But sometimes too many choices can be overwhelming, no?
rdieter	well, right now, there is no choice. The spin doesn't exist yet. :)
rdieter	sdziallas: eventually, yes.
sdziallas	yet! ;)
WhiteNitro	I did just get a request for a K-7 Arts Open Source CD (tuxpaint, Pencil, etc)
WhiteNitro	:) touche - we will cross that bridge later
rdieter	I guess what I'm getting at is... I propose the edu-sig start small, make a small, narrowly focussed spin, make sure it appeals to at least some edu demographic.
rdieter	obviously, this won't be everything to everyone, but hopefully, be enough to garner more input, so that other edu-spins could benefit.
WhiteNitro	Makes sense. What is your suggestion for the focus?
rdieter	*shrug*, I threw out Math/Science earlier, but it really could be anything. Any opinions on what would be most in demand, what's might be most popular?
sdziallas	well... depends... math & science seems to be most useful... maybe chemistry?
rdieter	I'm biased, I work at a University, Math dept, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
WhiteNitro	Would these spins have content or just apps?
rdieter	WhiteNitro: apps (mainly).
sdziallas	I mean, later... we could think about something like a portal with educational content and descriptions for the apps
WhiteNitro	[bias confession ] I am strictly in the K-12 world  :)
* sdziallas goes again through the list of apps
sdziallas	so tools like audacity or jokosher might be at first way too specific
WhiteNitro	It is a fairly broad list in age and domain (tuxtype to blender)
sdziallas	true... definitely
sdziallas	i should work on this
WhiteNitro	I need to re-read the use-case for this spin. Is is something that teachers hand out? That students use for the their own exploration? Home schoolers?
rdieter	WhiteNitro: I don't think there is a use-case yet, that's part of what's needed, imo. (unless I'm missing something).
sdziallas	depends... i think rdieter is right
sdziallas	we need a goal for this one
WhiteNitro	Well...I don't know if this is relevant or helpful...(jeez - great opening statement )....
WhiteNitro	but we just had an Open Source and Education conference here in Vermont
WhiteNitro	and when we suggested having an art contest for next year's conference of student created art using FOSS tools
WhiteNitro	it got a good reception and a request for a CD 'with all the FOSS art tools'
WhiteNitro	So I will be creating that in the near future
rdieter	that's a good idea.
WhiteNitro	I would be terrific to have it be a live Fedora CD/DVD if possible
sdziallas	so we would have an art specific spin containing e.g. inkscape, blender, gimp, and so on?
rdieter	we're veering into something less edu'y and more art'y, but I still think it's something to try.
* sdziallas found this one in the wiki
rdieter	sdziallas: sounds like it.
sdziallas	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio
WhiteNitro	If teachers are requesting it for use during school time.....quacks like duck...
WhiteNitro	If it helps, here is the conf. info: http://www.ncose.org/node/11
rdieter	WhiteNitro: does the existing FedorArtStudio sound like something that would might work?
WhiteNitro	At a first glance, yes - though it may need lower end stuff as well (tuxpaint) for K-2 groups
* sdziallas has a look at the kickstart file
sdziallas	this one is about 1,1 GB
WhiteNitro	Speaking of kids, I have to go pick up mine at school. I will watch the Fedora eduction mailing list for next steps.
rdieter	WhiteNitro: thx
sdziallas	;) yeah... thx
WhiteNitro	Enjoyed it - looking forward to next one
rdieter	sdziallas: ok, I think we've identified a few concrete steps on how to move forward.
<-- WhiteNitro hat () beendet
rdieter	1. identify use-case
rdieter	2. identify spin-focus
rdieter	1, 2 will affect each other obviously.
sdziallas	that's true
rdieter	3. spin size (cd size or not)
sdziallas	4. create kickstart and try to get it approved ?
sdziallas	5. release the spin and try to get as much feedback as possible ?
rdieter	I'd say to 5 first.
rdieter	don't wait/block on 4
rdieter	well, the "get it approved" part anyway
rdieter	I can help produce/host the sucker... I think Axel had offered help on list here too.
sdziallas	okay. this sounds really good
rdieter	I'm not familiar with out distro's edu efforts, like edubuntu, is that something worth looking closer at, maybe steal... err... borrow ideas?
sdziallas	;) well, i was some time ago involved in the opensuse edu-efforts (not for along time)
sdziallas	they are only producing a repo or a cd with packages on it
sdziallas	but they have some interesting web and wiki pages
sdziallas	e.g. they have also lists of desktop / server edu apps
sdziallas	http://opensuse-education.org/
sdziallas	http://en.opensuse.org/Education
rdieter	oh, and lest we forget, the other obvious spin use-case/focus would be as a delivery mechanism to ltsp-related stuff, but we'll likely have to wait on warren to fill in the details on how best to accomplish that.
warren	It isn't ready and thus would be too confusing at this point.
sdziallas	agreed. i think at least, we might include the possibility to sign on to a K12linux terminal server
warren	plus you have the problem of installing the chroot which is a bit of a unique problem
sdziallas	hmmm...
rdieter	warren: ok, I guess I had naively hoped a livecd could serve as ltsp client somehow maybe. sorta kinda.
warren	rdieter: well, that part is easy
warren	rdieter: I'm was thinking live LTSP server that has the client chroot as well
rdieter	cool, but harder.
warren	not exactly
rdieter	ok, just cool then. :)
warren	the code already exists for this, but not exactly what you describe
warren	let me clarify a bit
warren	LTSP in Fedora 9 is pretty functional now
warren	but I don't consider it production ready yet
rdieter	sdziallas: definitely put some of those related edu-sites/links on our Sig/EDU wiki too.
warren	we're still missing a few things that Ubuntu has and we have almost no documentation
sdziallas	rdieter: i'm going to :)
warren	This means a Linux sysadmin can today deploy a pretty functional LTSP server to serve thin clients
warren	but it isn't entirely easy for end-users yet
rdieter	warren: thx, do you see anything else between edu-sig and ltsp-bits that can be mutually beneficial (ie, what can the edu-sig do help you, and maybe vice-versa)
warren	yes
warren	I don't have time to define the set of 'edu' apps to install onto the LTSP LiveUSB/LiveDVD
warren	and I seriously need more people to actually TRY my stuff and post stuff to the list
warren	help me write documentation
warren	I'm getting almost no feedback despite how functional it has become in Fedora 9
rdieter	if you build it, they will come (hopefully).
sdziallas	concerning the set of edu-apps: this shouldn't be a large problem, right? we might clean up the application list and order them and so on...
warren	rdieter: if you're referring to a "spin" or live spin, that might be a misunderstanding
warren	while I do plan on making a live LTSP
warren	Ubuntu actually is moving away from making it a separate spin
warren	instead just making it stuff you install on top of standard Ubuntu
warren	This is the direction Eric Harrison wanted to go years ago
warren	and that was largely our goal in merging LTSP into Fedora
warren	live LTSP server is just a convenient way to demo or install it
warren	"clean up application list"
warren	do you mean to define your own comps group?
sdziallas	this would depend on how we are proceeding concerning the edu-spins
sdziallas	if we would create different spins for different domains (maths / chemistry / art / ...), this might be useful
rdieter	comps groups for various edu domains would be useful, especfially if we had spins associated with them. :)
warren	if you do different domains then you are treading onto redundancy with other sigs
rdieter	or not, the groups could still be useful.
warren	also keep in mind that a comps group can have both default and optional
warren	default = installed by default
warren	optional = easy to find in the package group in the GUI
rdieter	warren: nod, examples of other sigs to watch out for (redundancy)?
rdieter	Astronomy?
sdziallas	well... art (we had the link there)
warren	well, it isn't an exact 1 to 1 match
sdziallas	the astronomy guys are preparing their own spin, too
warren	and using the distinction between default and optional you can make this pretty useful
warren	decide now what you will make default?
warren	default should be more generally useful
warren	perhaps K12 target for default, and everything else possibly educational for optional?
rdieter	yeah, the more we talk about it, EDU-SIG is a good umbrella, but way too broad to speak in terms of any single spin or focus.
rdieter	K12 is an excellent place to start.
sdziallas	true! +1
sdziallas	so we would first order somehow the different apps, get those who are for k12 and create than different categories for the domains?!
warren	I have no chance of fitting a useful Live LTSP server on a CD
warren	So I'll have room to pull in whatever edu-sig picks for default desktop apps
warren	sdziallas: for your spin were you thinking live CD or traditional installable?
rdieter	sdziallas: yep.
warren	because LiveCD's can't live openoffice
warren	err
warren	can't fit
rdieter	warren: livecd, atm anyway
sdziallas	that's true... I would really like to get openoffice in, but is just not possible to get it on a cd
sdziallas	and it does not makes sense to create a dvd, if you're creating one with the default edu-apps and k12ltsp
sdziallas	so we are going to stick to the cd, right? :)
warren	eh
warren	you wont fit on a CD
rdieter	sdziallas: focussing on categorizing apps, making groups sounds like a good forward right now.
rdieter	a good *way* forward even.
sdziallas	rdieter: +100
warren	rdieter: yes, good idea
sdziallas	warren: then, we are going to use abiword or kword (depending on the desktop environment)
* rdieter goes to look at comps now.
gregdek	(Sorry, /me got called into another meeting)
* sdziallas has again a look at the app list in the wiki
rdieter	ok, there is an education group already, but it's way way small as-is.
sdziallas	i think there are also some interesting packages in the scientific group...
rdieter	right, we can help sort that out, make sure things are categorized better, possibly move some, possibly list some apps in multiple groups. (but that has it's own down-sides)
sdziallas	+1 again ;)
rdieter	OK, I'll work on reviewing comps, and make some suggestions and ask for feedback on list.
sdziallas	I'm going to order the list in the wiki somehow, ok?
rdieter	sdziallas: please do, that'll make my job easier. :)
sdziallas	work in progress ;)
warren	so yeah, start out by group defining
warren	I'll have a live LTSP server test spin during the next few weeks
sdziallas	cool.
warren	the key reason for doing live LTSP server is because people without internet or slow internet especially in developing countries can't use the standard ltsp-build-client to install their chroot
warren	it needs to download ~330+ packages
sdziallas	ups... sounds logic.
sdziallas	i still remember the times when i had a 56k modem - not so much time ago
sdziallas	so a live media seems to be a pretty good solution for such a problem
rdieter	I try not to remember... :)
sdziallas	agreed. we shouldn't remember that...
sdziallas	so since we now have something like a plan, do you think we should close this meeting and talk again in some days / weeks?
rdieter	nod, I'm out of ideas for today anyway.
sdziallas	me too
sdziallas	okay. so, i'm going to keep the log and prepare some posts to the wiki and the mailing list
sdziallas	thank you everybody!
sdziallas	any plans for next meeting? is this time okay?
sdziallas	or should we just discuss this on the list?
rdieter	this time works for me.
sdziallas	ok...
* sdziallas won't be here next friday, but lets talk about this on the list, okay?
rdieter	ok
sdziallas	ok... so again thx, and cu everybody
sdziallas	meeting adjourned :P

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