ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-apr-19

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Thursday 19-APR-07

F7 Test 4

1. In need of a good release note related to the hda-->sda change. People upgrading from a previous version could experience problems depending on how the partitions are labeled. No one officially took this task. 1. wwoods mentioned some problems he's seeing

• mkinitrd weirdness lingering
• a lot of sata/pata weirdness still being tracked down
• wwoods hoping to go through the buglists and sort stuff out but so far there's no clear patterns

1. notting reports that the comps stuff was approved. He will complete and send mail to rel-eng@fp.o 1. f13 reports seeing lots of "fun" with the extras multilib stuff. 1. jeremy reports that overall it's probably worth doing another tree in the near-ish future, but we're definitely not "there"

Coordination of sub-groups

1. jeremy is going to get a weekly rawhide live image up later today or tomorrow am and that should hopefully get us some more testing 1. f13--rel-eng is the group that drives this meeting and these topics, but we'll want some known points of people to go to for various things.

• wwoods-QA
• jeremy-installer and such
• davej-kernel
• if you'd like to represent some group for Release Engineering type discussions, feel free to add yourself to the wiki
• need a "Representatives" section in the ReleaseEngineering page to distinguish between representatives and folks actually in releng

1. jeremy determined that anaconda does not need upd-instroot changes; it looks like it might work and switch back without anything needing doing 1. Discussion about changing default icons

• notting-are there political concerns with changing icons?
• wwoods-Is it considered important to have an all-new look for F7?
• mclasen-when we did switch to echo early in the cycle, we always said that we'd reevaluate late in the cycle
• don't have a recommendation right now
• need to consult with some people first; sent question to art list and try to give recommendation by tomorrow.

When should we branch CVS for F7?

1. Several suggestions were made:

• Merge anyway even if we don't have the hardware--deal with some pain
• The Day After Tomorrow?
• At test4 release
• At the final freeze?

1. No definitive decision was made though folks seemed to think near final freeze was best.

Regular meeting schedule

Decisions made were: 1. Every Monday 1. Extra meetings tossed in when releases are happening for more the state of the tree type things. 1. f13 will mark it in the wiki that Mondays are our regular meeting slot 1. Regular meeting time was not specified

Mailing list for rel-eng?

Decisions made were: 1. Continue to use the rel-eng@ alias for requesting tags and "please do something for me" not necessarily a "lets discuss this topic" or "here is the state of hte tree." Revisit usage after F7 1. Send tree status to fedora-devel

Where to send meeting notes to?

1. Meeting notes will be sent to fedora-devel only to avoid cross-posting mess

What do we report to FESCO?

1. no strong consensus 1. ideas and comments

• jwb-this is a pointless question
• wwoods-what sort of decisions does FESCO need special notification of?
• f13-RTFM? (Read the Fine Minutes)
• wwoods-maybe decisions to slip schedules, change how freezes are done, etc..?
• jwb-how we decide to handle freezes, slips, etc

Open Floor

1. wwoods

• I'm going to try (fingers crossed) to get RHEL QE involved with testing F7--which *might* result in a bunch of folks who are not intimately familiar with Fedora.. customs and traditions; reporting bugs and such
• if I hear back about the st firmware before test4, I'll bring it up again. otherwise.. F8

1. poelcat

• I updated the feature listing... there was some discussion on how in/out certain features were
• have we ever considered the possibility of an audio meeting, e.g. SIP call? It might provide for a faster meeting

1. f13

• I _really_ want to spin a golden tree at some point tomorrow (2007-04-19) instead of on Monday

IRC Transcript

warren changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting		<a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a>
jeremy	wwoods: ping	<a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a>
warren	What was that about the last kernel being busted?	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jeremy	it was busted.  badly	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jeremy	new kernel is building that is fixedificated	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jeremy	and should be done any minute now	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
f13	we reverted, and jeremy pushed a new rawhide	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
f13	ah cool	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
f13	so, lets try to drag wwoods in here.	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
f13	wwoods: ping?	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
notting	busted is .309...?	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jeremy	1	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
wwoods	what's up? oh excellent	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jeremy	3094 is the good one	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
wwoods	yeah, I hear .3091 was busted but I haven't touched it - .3088 is in rawhide today	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
jeremy	wwoods: rawhide the second at least	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
wwoods	rawhide 2: the fixening	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
f13	heh	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
f13	ok..	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
wwoods	dwalsh says the fixfiles/restorecon segfault is fixed in -8, but -7 is what I currently see in rawhide	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting -- Test 4 status		<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
f13	so, I haven't caught up on mail, where are we at?	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
wwoods	OTOH the bug seems fixed in -7, so I don't know whether to request inclusion of -8 or just let it go	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
jeremy	f13: we're finding bugs, we're fixing bugs, we're rinsing and repeating	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
wwoods	jeremy: you have any insight there?	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
jeremy	wwoods: looking	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
warren	I'm satisfied with the SCIM debacle for now.  I'm working with tagoh to fix it in an ideal way after Test4.	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
jeremy	wwoods: -7 should be good enough	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
wwoods	okay, I'll mark that bug CLOSED RAWHIDE	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
* f13 looks at the blocker tree		<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
jeremy	warren: cool	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
wwoods	I put the kdm/ConsoleKit bug on the blocker list - rdieter wants it for test4, it's already got a patch..	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
wwoods	OTOH - rebuilding chunks of KDE, and untested patches = scary	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
wwoods	opinions?	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
notting	test it? :)	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
wwoods	right, but we need a test package built first, and AFAIK we don't have that yet	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
f13	bah, it's KDE, can't be any more broken... (:	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
notting	build it, toss it on people, have people test	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
LetoTo	quick test 4 question: people are aware that for some machines fc6 -> fc7 will cause a change from hda to sda?	<a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a>
LetoTo	does fstab get updated in the upgrade?	<a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: fstabs are setup with labels by default	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
jeremy	we should be giving better guidance in the case of not now	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
wwoods	f13, notting: so, we should try to get it in for t4?	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
jeremy	(still need to write the part for the release notes)	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
LetoTo	jeremy: yes by default :P	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
jima	LetoTo: non-default = "good luck!"	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
notting	wwoods: get a test build asap, go from there	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: there is no way to just figure it out and do a migration.  this is part of why we switched to labels long ago	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
LetoTo	jima: thats fedora policy? :P	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
jima	LetoTo: automated migration could break badly in mixed ide/sata or ide/scsi environments.	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
wwoods	It is fedora policy. There's a million different ways you can screw up your system, and we can't be expected to compensate for all of them	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
LetoTo	labels work less ideal when you install fc6 and fc7 on the same box in different partitions with root=LABEL=/	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: like I said, we should be detecting it now (I'm going to be testing in a little bit) and saying "please put the labels back"	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
wwoods	or rather - it should be	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
f13	LetoTo: the installer detects that and doesn't create duplicate label names.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
f13	(usually)	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: anaconda won't set up two partitions on the same box with different labels...	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
jima	correct, the second one is usually LABEL=/1 iirc	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
LetoTo	ok, then no worries then.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
jima	and /boot1	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
warren	jeremy, how does it handle RAID-1?	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
LetoTo	I just personally always change it, because it gave me more problems then it solved in the past. time to upgrade my tricks :)	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
warren	labels in two partitions that are identical...	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
wwoods	It'd be nice if we were using slightly more descriptive labels, like "f7_root"	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
notting	you could just label it with the uuid	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
jeremy	warren: raid superblocks give a unique identifier, so we used to mount them by that.  but then we fixed mount to dtrt with raid and label them now	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
jeremy	notting: that's probably what we're going to end up doing for f8 :/	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
wwoods	heh yuck	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
notting	jeremy: or sha1 the fs superblock, or...	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
f13	ah fun.	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
f13	ok, any more Test4 status discussion?	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
wwoods	there's a lot of mkinitrd weirdness lingering	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
wwoods	and a lot of sata/pata weirdness that I haven't gotten nailed down	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
wwoods	I'm hoping to go through the buglists and sort stuff out but so far there's no clear patterns	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
notting	f13: the comps stuff was approved. i'll get that done and send mail to rel-eng@fp.o	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
wwoods	jeremy: is the sata_sil fix you mentioned going to be in .309x (where x > 1 and not broken)	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
jeremy	wwoods: it's in 3094 I believe	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
wwoods	cool	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
* notting wonders how he always has hardware whose storage drivers does not break		<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
wwoods	we don't buy weirdo no-name laptops or build our own computers	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
jeremy	wwoods: probably	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	I'd love it if we had free budget so when there's some hardware that some poor soul cannot get working	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	we just buy one of the damn things	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
f13	notting: I have hardware that breaks (:	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	make it work	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
f13	I bought a Pogo box...	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	and sell it on ebay when we're done	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
davej	wwoods: and buy it again when we regress in an update? :)	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	davej: well, yes	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	there's that.	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
wwoods	heh	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
f13	hrm.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
davej	we'll never have complete coverage, but I agree we should at least try and get some of the more common-case hardware.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
f13	I'm seeing lots of "fun" with the extras multilib stuff.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
jeremy	f13: so the basic summary is that it's probably worth doing another tree in the near-ish future, but we're definitely not "there"	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
wwoods	yeah, I don't have any machines with ATI video, nor sata_nv, nor pata_amd, nor sata_sil	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
f13	jeremy: ok.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
wwoods	and I have no idea what other drivers may be flaky	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
jima	wwoods: well, i'm not sure it's specific to those controllers.	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
LetoTo	i guess the mkinitrd on xenblk inclusion on dom0 died out on the list	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Meeting -- Coordination of sub-groups		<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
jima	wwoods: err, sorry, wrong thread ;)	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
wwoods	jima: if it turns out there's a common cause for it all, I will be very very happy	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
jeremy	I'm going to get a weekly rawhide live image up later today or tomorrow am and that should hopefully get us some more testing	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
wwoods	I completely love it when one fix closes 97 vaguely-related bugs	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
f13	So rel-eng is the group that drives this meeting and these topics, but we'll want some known points of people to go to for various things.	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
notting	wwoods: my boxes are all ata_piix or pata/sata_via	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
f13	wwoods for QA obviously, jeremy for installer and such, davej for kernel...	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
wwoods	notting: same.. except for the ide_pmac (ha ha ha SPLODE)	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
davej	notting: ditto, though I got a bunch of jmicron controllers sent to me this week.	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
f13	Should we start listing these on the ReleaseEngineering page?	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
jeremy	f13: sure!	<a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a>
wwoods	sounds like a good idea	<a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a>
davej	people writing stuff about me on the internets? damn those guys..  meh, what's one more page. +1	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
f13	how's this, if you'd like to represent some group for releng type discussions, feel free to add yourself to the wiki	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
f13	hrm, no polecat	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
poelcat	i'm here :)	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
notting	f13: probably need to direct that to all said groups, some of which maynot be here right now	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
f13	oh, I can't type right.	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
f13	notting: yeah, broadcast announcement	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
mclasen	sorry for being late	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
f13	probably need a "Representatives" section in the ReleaseEngineering page to distinguish between representatives and folks actually in releng	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
mclasen	I hear that I missed the test4 status part of the meeting, can I still bring up one thing related to it ?	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
notting	sure	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
mclasen	default icon theme	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
notting	it's not echo?	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
mclasen	I tried to improve the echo coverage by including svgs, but that turns out to be problematic	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
mclasen	so I will have to take the svgs out again	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
mclasen	and we did say at some point that we need to decide on going with echo or not around the last test release	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
wwoods	the lightbulb does look a bit weird	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
davej	mclasen: can you un-dent the trashcan icon whilst you're at it ? :)	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
mclasen	davej: thats one of the svg issues	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
* lmacken strolls in from class		<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
wwoods	and the trashcan still turns into the old bluecurve one when you drag a file over it	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
warren	Echo looks a lot like Tango...	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
wwoods	other than that, though, I'm pretty happy with Echo..	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
mclasen	wwoods: thats a coverage issue; echo is missing that icon	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
lmacken	when all else fails... go with the upstream (default gnome icons (tango based))	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
mclasen	tango is not the default gnome icon theme	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
lmacken	i know, but the new gnome icons are tango-ish	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
mclasen	but the gnome-icon-theme got more and more tangoified over the last cycle	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
mclasen	for better or worse	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
notting	so, our choices are: 1) echo - new, lacking in coverage 2) bluecurve - works, but boring 3) upstream - not tested in fedora?	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
* f13 leans toward 2		<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
notting	mclasen: how many packages need to change to change the default?	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
mclasen	the way I see it, we either declare echo good enough, or switch back to bluecurve	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
mclasen	1 package	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
notting	jeremy: does anaconda need upd-instroot changes?	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
jeremy	potentially	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
* jeremy goes to look		<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
* lmacken would like to see us use gnome's default icons.. but i guess we already "bought in" to bluecurve and echo a while ago		<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
jeremy	it looks like it might work and switch back without anything needing doing	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
notting	are there political concerns with changing icons?	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
warren	notting, how so?	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
notting	i dunno. annoying the echo team, or something	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
wwoods	Is it considered important to have an all-new look for F7?	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
warren	notting, we can't possibly annoy the echo team more.	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
wwoods	I really like Echo thus far, personally, even though I expected not to	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
notting	wwoods: we have balloons!	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
mclasen	notting: when we did switch to echo early in the cycle, we always said that we'd reevaluate late in the cycle	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
mclasen	so I don't think people will be upset	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
wwoods	We'll still be *including* it, right?	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
warren	Well, they will be, but they already are.	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
f13	it's not our fault it isn't done yet	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
mclasen	in fact, some people were offended by us "pushing" echo before it was ready	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
jeremy	mclasen: people will _always_ be upset :-)	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
mclasen	right	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
mclasen	though art-list has become silent lately	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
jeremy	I don't have a strong opinion in any direction	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
warren	mclasen, nobody is accountable to it	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
* jeremy is willing to support whatever mclasen thinks we should do		<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
warren	mclasen, I wouldn't call a dozen mail/day silent	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
mclasen	wwoods: sure, the discussion is only about default, not about inclusion	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
mclasen	warren: I meant that there is no constant flamewar anymore	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
jwb_gone	we're having a release team meeting?	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
wwoods	How far away from "ready" is it?	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
f13	jwb_gone: yes	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
jwb_gone	f13, i thought they were on mondays?	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
jeremy	jwb_gone: generally, yes.  on monday we said we wanted to just see where we were again on thursday	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
mclasen	wwoods: there is a lot of work left to do	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
jwb_gone	jeremy, f13: ok sorry	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
mclasen	jeremy: I don't have a recommendation right now; need to consult with some people first; do you want to make this change for test4 ?	<a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a>
f13	mclasen: if you can get an answer by tomorrow, sure, if not, no.	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
wwoods	mclasen: we've got less than a month until the release, so.. if you're fairly confident it could be ready by then, I'd be inclined to keep it	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
jeremy	mclasen: I think we need to have test4 match what we're doing for the final release	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
* jwb_gone agrees		<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
f13	sure, I'm persueded	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
wwoods	jeremy: +1	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
mclasen	ok, I put the question out on the art list, so I'll wait for some responses from the echo people	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
jeremy	test4 needs to be _a lot_ more solid than the past few test releases	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
mclasen	and try to give a recommendation by tomorrow	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
wwoods	if you're not sure it can be done for the release, let's turn it off now so that test4 matches final	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
jeremy	we've gotten a fair bit of negative feedback with the previous test releases, and it'd be good to be able to follow up with a rocking test4	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Release Engineering Meeting -- When should we branch CVS for F7?		<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
notting	after we merge	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
jwb_gone	notting, +1	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
f13	notting: and if we don't get hardware in place in the next month?	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
jwb_gone	i saw we merge anyway and deal with some pain	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
notting	f13: merge anyway	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
wwoods	The People's Glorious Merging must be driven ever forward!	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
f13	so then do we want to stake a date for merging with or without hardware?	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
f13	and this is a more general question to.  At what point after the final test release do we want to branch CVS	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
* nirik thinks sooner is better than later... if only to blast extras with a thick layer of icy freeze. ;)		<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
f13	because there is going to be a lull where we don't want to introduce new things to CVS, but we're only taking specific bug fixes...	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
notting	nirik: extras: The Day After Tomorrow?	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
warren	We need better automated enforcement so folks don't allow devel to fall behind FC-7	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
notting	f13: at test4 release seems practical to me	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
notting	in the general case	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
warren	hmm... rawhide pulls from FC-7...	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
warren	so there is no published tree of devel	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
warren	?	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
f13	yeah, devel builds wouldn't be published in a tree, but available through koji's web interface	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
f13	notting: I could agree with that.  A brief period where some bugs are fixed on multiple branches, but allows for future development too	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
jeremy	except that we want devel/ to have the F-7 stuff in teh general case	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
jeremy	and forcing double builds after test4 seems like it's going to go poorly	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
warren	ouch	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
f13	how about at the final freeze?	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
f13	either we lock CVS and developers take a vacation, or we have to do some fixes in two trees for a period of time.  Just want to find the right balance	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
LetoTo	this process of devel becoming fc+1 is not always ideal. i guess it boils down to having unstable,stable,testing	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
jwb_gone	f13, i say vacation	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
jeremy	f13: yes, there is some period where it's the case.  but minimizing the amount of time is pretty important I think	<a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: that just means you always have to deal with three branches.  which isn't necessarily better	<a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a>
f13	I'm also worried about lots of time where builds in devel/ aren't actually going anywhere and the content of devel/ being _wrong_ when we branch for F-7/	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
f13	since from now until the end we're only taking packages by request.	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
LetoTo	jeremy: but it insures my development bleeding edge isnt suddenly declared the next release freeze	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
f13	unless we want to change how the final test -> final release continuous freeze works	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
LetoTo	jeremy in my case. i have nsd-2.* in FC[456]	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
jeremy	f13: yeah, not sure how to really resolve the differences :/	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
LetoTo	and nsd-3 in devel	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
LetoTo	now suddenly, other people decided to make nsd-3 the new version by calling devel fc7	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
LetoTo	i understand it is less work then having all maintainers create their stuff in a new tree	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
f13	LetoTo: maybe you weren't following the feature freeze and such dates.	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
LetoTo	f13: say i was, and i found nsd-3 was not ready?	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
LetoTo	would i have to revoke stuff from devel?	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
f13	probably.	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
f13	epoch and revert	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: or get an early F-7 branch has been done in the past	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
LetoTo	jeremy: is that process documented on the wiki? It does sound like the better solution	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
f13	so, opinions on branching at the final freeze date?	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
jeremy	f13: that's probably the best compromise time	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
jeremy	f13: and we should include thinking about this as we get back to some of the new scm thinking	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
f13	nod	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
jeremy	LetoTo: probably not...  but a branch request in bugzilla like you'd do for any other release should work	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
f13	bein gable to have both F7 and devel at the same time, but in sync if there is no changes would be nice.	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
LetoTo	f13: yes, that would be best	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
f13	so if you haven't actually changed devel, things you do in F-7 automatically echo to devel/	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
f13	but thats hand waivy future land	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jeremy	another concrete thing	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jeremy	mikmod	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jeremy	it got bumped to a beta version with a new soname right before the freeze	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jeremy	votes on reverting back to the older version?	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
notting	+revert	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jwb_gone	revert	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
f13	+1 to revert.  Probably epoch+revert for upgrade path :/	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
f13	(as much as that still bothers me)	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
* nirik notes that a few people already rebuilt against it, so we need to rebuild those again, or dump the updates there too.		<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
f13	icky tata	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
wwoods	this is one of those things that would be OK if we were doing a mass-rebuild?	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
wwoods	or, at least, we wouldn't have noticed after the rebuild	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
f13	wwoods: would have been ok before the feature freeze	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
warren	mikmod is core?	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
f13	but soname bumping sounds like featury	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
wwoods	I.. hm	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
nirik	warren: yes, jnovy is the last one in the changelog	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
wwoods	but it was pre-freeze?	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
warren	wwoods, test3 was feature freeze	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
jeremy	wwoods: it was before we locked down things.  but post feature freeze	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
wwoods	oh, pre test4 freeze	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
wwoods	boo	<a href="#t14:56" class="time">14:56</a>
* wwoods votes revert		<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
warren	how many things need reverting?	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
wwoods	unless there's a really good reason	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
warren	mikmod isn't that widespread	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
wwoods	(which was never presented to us)	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
jeremy	warren: the version that's in rawhide right now is a beta	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
nirik	<a href="http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-April/msg01047.html">http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-April/msg01047.html</a>	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
warren	reverting might be ugly due to epoch.  mikmod really isn't dangerous.  Does the new version work?	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
wwoods	so they crammed in a beta with a new soname, post-feature freeze? uuuugly	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
jeremy	wwoods: yes	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
wwoods	sounds like a LARTable (DART?) offense	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
jwb_gone	epoch is just a damn number	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
f13	warren: as much as I hate epochs, I hate having to rebuild a bunch of stuff after a freeze for a soname bump much more	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
wwoods	heh! we basically only use 'epoch' to fix stuff like this	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
f13	for a beta	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
jwb_gone	f13, +!	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
jwb_gone	er, 1	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
wwoods	so maybe we need to keep track of 'total Epoch increase by developer'	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
warren	wwoods, public shaming scoreboard?	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
wwoods	indeed	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
* wwoods mostly kidding		<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
f13	every epoch gets you -1 points in karma	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
f13	ok, anything else before we move on to regular meeting times?	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Regular meeting schedule		<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
wwoods	anyway yes, +1 for revert + epoch bump	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
f13	I think most were OK with this time slot, on Mondays	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
jwb_gone	monday works best for me	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
f13	extra meetings tossed in when releases are happening for more the state of the tree type things.	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
jeremy	although it is a 3 year old beta	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
jeremy	(sorry, network dropped)	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
notting	heh	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
f13	jeremy: a 3 year old beta, and we're just getting it now?	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
notting	active upstream project,there	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
jeremy	yep!	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
* f13 sigs		<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
f13	er sighs	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
wwoods	Monday's good for me, and yes, I'm glad we had this meeting - twice weekly during RC-building phase is a good idea	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
f13	ok, worksforme.  I'll mark it in the wiki that Mondays are our regular meeting slot	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Mailing list for rel-eng?		<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
f13	I'm on the fence about this one.	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
warren	Why not?	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
f13	we have the rel-eng@ alias for requesting tags and such	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
f13	we coul dmake it a list, but that's more a "please do something for me" not necessarily a "lets discuss this topic" or "here is the state of hte tree"	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
warren	Is there any reason to keep rel-eng private?	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
f13	however using devel or maintainers might be too "noisy" to do tree state discussions, but then again... blah	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
f13	warren: I don't think so	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
f13	warren: only when we're discussion whether or not to add a new person,and private mail could be used for that	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
jeremy	state of the tree being discussed on devel-list isn't a bad thing at all	<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
* nirik thinks devel would be fine.		<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
jeremy	it would help if more people were aware :)	<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
f13	jeremy: sure, but would that cut out making our maintainers aware who avoid -devel due to the noise?	<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
* poelcat says keep using devel and only create addition list if it really becomes a problem		<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
f13	or is that firmly in the "NotCare" area?	<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
poelcat	we have a zillion mailing lists	<a href="#t15:04" class="time">15:04</a>
jeremy	more mailing lists just means more cross-posting of crap	<a href="#t15:05" class="time">15:05</a>
f13	poelcat: I know, I hate that, but then again I get all the mail anyway, i don't necessarily care where it comes from	<a href="#t15:05" class="time">15:05</a>
jeremy	and do we really need that? :)	<a href="#t15:05" class="time">15:05</a>
f13	no.	<a href="#t15:05" class="time">15:05</a>
f13	do we need to continue using rel-eng@ for anything?  Culd those requests go to devel?  Hard to tell if as a requestor you get enough +1s from the right people...	<a href="#t15:05" class="time">15:05</a>
warren	devel is pretty noisy	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
f13	which sort of falls into good ways of ack/nack ing requests	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
f13	right now it's fuzzy	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
LetoTo	with extras gone, dont you have a free slot? :)	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
jeremy	eventually, we need to do something better than mail to an alias.  -devel isn't it.  but I don't want to try to figure that out today :)	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
f13	if we make rel-eng into an open list, who's to say your +1 came from a rel-eng person and not random joe?	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
jwb_gone	we need some way to flag rel-eng questions	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
jwb_gone	and responses	<a href="#t15:06" class="time">15:06</a>
f13	*cough* a wiki page?	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
nirik	wiki page?	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
* f13 tries real hard to not suggest RT or ORTS		<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
f13	or flags	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
wwoods	channels on the mailing list?	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
jwb_gone	wiki, rt, orts suck for discussion	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
wwoods	add some code to koji to track tag requests?	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
f13	oh yes, we totally need flags in koji	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
jeremy	wwoods: the buildsystem eventually does sound like a good place for it	<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
* notting is fine w/requests to rel-eng@, tree status to -devel		<a href="#t15:07" class="time">15:07</a>
f13	k	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
jeremy	notting: +1	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
wwoods	+1	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
jwb_gone	+1	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
f13	should rel-eng become a semi-moderated mailing list that's easier to track/get archives from?	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
f13	or continue with it being an alias for now?	<a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a>
jwb_gone	alias until after f7	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
jwb_gone	revisit then	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
wwoods	what happens when the accusations of us being an unfair shadowy cabal of blah blah blah in violation of german law start flying?	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
jwb_gone	wwoods, spam them with the oh so many emails we have	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
f13	warren: we ignore ralf?	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
f13	er wwoods	<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Where to send meeting notes to?		<a href="#t15:09" class="time">15:09</a>
f13	-devel ?	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
f13	I don't want to see cross posts of doom again.	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
jwb_gone	-devel	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
warren	Internally, we found that posting meeting minutes to lists is a great way to have them ignored.	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
jwb_gone	warren, it's the only way the community gets to see them	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
jwb_gone	they need posting	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
wwoods	I'm fine with -devel, although I"d like it if there was a reliable way to find them.. common subject or something	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
warren	sly said it is more effective to put minutes on a central webpage, and post notices that new minutes were posted.	<a href="#t15:10" class="time">15:10</a>
f13	warren: i don't care if they're ignored.  I care that we made an effort, posting to a list and in the wiki.	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
warren	That avoids cross-posting of large amounts of text.	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
wwoods	isn't there some way of doing magical marking and subfiltering on mailman lists?	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
warren	wwoods, only child lists, I don't think we're using that.	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
f13	wwoods: there is, but it isn't well used.	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
nirik	there is "topics"... but they don't help with archives, etc.	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
* notting thinks posted to the mailing list is fine as long as the minutes are reasonably concise		<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
wwoods	ah topics, that's it	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
notting	10K of bug lists... not so much	<a href="#t15:11" class="time">15:11</a>
f13	heh	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: What do we report to FESCO?		<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
wwoods	who would ever do something so insane?	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
f13	this is a fun question.	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
jwb_gone	f13, this is a pointless question	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
f13	general decisions?	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
jwb_gone	yes	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
f13	jwb_gone: if only...	<a href="#t15:12" class="time">15:12</a>
wwoods	what sort of decisions does FESCO need special notification of?	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
f13	RTFM?  (Read the Fine Minutes)	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
wwoods	what kinds of things would be too important to just hope they read in the logs?	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
f13	wwoods: maybe decisions to slip schedules, change how freezes are done, etc..?	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
jwb_gone	wwoods, how we decide to handle freezes, slips, etc	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
jwb_gone	oh, jinx f13	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
f13	oh snap	<a href="#t15:13" class="time">15:13</a>
jwb_gone	:)	<a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a>
f13	Ok, that's allthe topics I have for this meeting.	<a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Open Floor		<a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a>
wwoods	I'm going to try (fingers crossed) to get RHEL QE involved with testing F7	<a href="#t15:15" class="time">15:15</a>
wwoods	which *might* result in a bunch of folks who are not intimately familiar with Fedora.. customs and traditions	<a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a>
wwoods	reporting bugs and such	<a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a>
wwoods	so, y'know, fair warning.	<a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a>
poelcat	i updated the feature listing... there was some discussion on how in/out certain features were	<a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a>
poelcat	i did the best I could given the info I had	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
f13	wwoods: hrm, how upset are tey going to be that we aren't taking their trivial bugs in for F7 due to being in freeze?	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
wwoods	f13: ideally they won't care	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
jwb_gone	poelcat, thanks for that	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
f13	poelcat: thank you for that.  I haven't looked over it myself due to traveling and such, but thanks!	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
wwoods	they're not really emotionally involved since there's no horrific errata storm or anything	<a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a>
f13	heh	<a href="#t15:18" class="time">15:18</a>
wwoods	do we consider firmware a 'feature'?	<a href="#t15:18" class="time">15:18</a>
wwoods	or rathher - if we can get legal permission for extra firmware, can we include it or is that too distruptive?	<a href="#t15:18" class="time">15:18</a>
jeremy	wwoods: I think if we can get it into test4, then we're good.  otherwise, it's going to be a lot harder	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
f13	what jeremy said	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
jeremy	(since by shipping firmware, we'll be making drivers "do something" on a lot more hardware... and if it just causes an oops, that's bad)	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
f13	although your time to get it into test4 is very very short.	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
f13	I _really_ want to spin a golden tree at some point tomorrow instead of on Monday	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
wwoods	yeah, if I hear back about the st firmware before test4, I'll bring it up again. otherwise.. F8	<a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a>
wwoods	so, s/test4/tomorrow/	<a href="#t15:21" class="time">15:21</a>
f13	is there anything else?	<a href="#t15:22" class="time">15:22</a>
poelcat	off topic, but related... have we ever considered the possibility of an audio meeting, e.g. SIP call?	<a href="#t15:23" class="time">15:23</a>
poelcat	i think it might provide for a faster meeting	<a href="#t15:24" class="time">15:24</a>
f13	Theoretically I could set up a bridge within RH concall system, but harder to share those minutes/logs	<a href="#t15:25" class="time">15:25</a>
f13	ok, meeting over.	<a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a>

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