Meeting:Board meeting 2009-07-02

Meeting Summary

• Board page is out of date
  • ACTION: Paul to start fixes, Board members to complete bio data
• Sponsorship -- waiting for Paul's proposal
• "What is Fedora"
  • Waiting for spot's proposal, to be provided week of 2009-07-06
  • Caillon's proposal to follow for meeting week of 2009-07-13
• Board approved use of hardware by the PPC secondary arch team, while noting this is not a policy precedent and is based on specific circumstances for PPC; implementation details to be worked out between PPC and Infrastructure separately
• Toxicity
  • ACTION: Josh to write up process page
  • ACTION: Board to find another volunteer for hall monitoring
  • ACTION: Dennis to establish a list for the moderators to record their work
• Board agrees with having a cross-team coordination list, fwiw
• Thanks to departing members

Questions & Answers

• nirik: "I have a question about who fedora is for (which I know the Board has been working on). Should things like the get-fedora page target new to fedora/linux users? Or should we target it more at advanced users who know what gnome/kde/xfce are? Or can the board answer yet before the target market is decided?"
• _Hicham_: "I have a question about mono, what is the status of mono in Fedora 12?"
• jmbuser: "Has it been decided that all documentation (including the wiki) is going to be covered by a Creative Commons license? Is this approved by legal and what does it cover?"
• Nushio: "I have a question about the default Bluetooth manager. Can it really be changed to something else, or are we stuck with whatever Gnome provides?"

#fedora-board-meeting log

stickster	Okay, who's here? Mouseketeer roll call!	02 Jul 13:00
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:00
* mmcgrath here		02 Jul 13:00
stickster	mmcgrath: Who loves ya baby?	02 Jul 13:00
mmcgrath	apparently the community	02 Jul 13:01
* stickster doesn't know if Telly Savalas references work with this crowd.		02 Jul 13:01
poelcat		02 Jul 13:01
* poelcat present		02 Jul 13:01
notting		02 Jul 13:01
* notting is here		02 Jul 13:01
stickster	We're missing mdomsch, which is expected as he's on vacation.	02 Jul 13:01
stickster	I think we may be missing caillon -- is that expected too?	02 Jul 13:01
jwb		02 Jul 13:02
* jwb is here		02 Jul 13:02
mmcgrath	a spot?	02 Jul 13:02
spot		02 Jul 13:02
* spot is here		02 Jul 13:02
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:02
* mmcgrath spots a spot		02 Jul 13:02
stickster	ping dgilmore glezos	02 Jul 13:03
dgilmore	because thats pong	02 Jul 13:04
dgilmore	pong	02 Jul 13:04
mmcgrath	when does the talking start?  :)	02 Jul 13:04
stickster	Question to those members already here -- shall we do community Q&A first, so that we can accommodate contributors waiting to ask questions?	02 Jul 13:04
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:04
* mmcgrath has no preference		02 Jul 13:04
* stickster would like to do that if possible		02 Jul 13:05
jwb	fine with me	02 Jul 13:05
stickster	Anyone against?	02 Jul 13:05
poelcat	-1 against	02 Jul 13:05
notting	stickster: one quick question - who is responsible for updating wiki/Board?	02 Jul 13:05
stickster	notting: Anyone can, but I'm happy to do it if there's something out of joint	02 Jul 13:05
notting	stickster: well, the list of members is out of date..	02 Jul 13:06
stickster	oops.	02 Jul 13:06
* stickster updated History page and forgot that.		02 Jul 13:06
poelcat		02 Jul 13:06
* poelcat wonders if we could get the meeting bot to join?		02 Jul 13:06
stickster	Let me then ask any of our newly elected/appointed contingency to update themselves on this page: Board	02 Jul 13:06
stickster	poelcat: Good point.	02 Jul 13:07
* stickster is sadly uneducated on how to make that happen		02 Jul 13:07
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v Oxf13		02 Jul 13:07
mmcgrath	stickster: soon the meeting plugin will be part of zodbot and officially supported	02 Jul 13:07
stickster	OK, poelcat wants to do agenda up front. No strong preferences, so we bend his way.	02 Jul 13:08
stickster	The first item up is Sponsorship.	02 Jul 13:08
stickster	In 5 min	02 Jul 13:09
stickster	Current status -- I believe this is waiting on me to draw up a set of definitions for sponsor levels	02 Jul 13:09
stickster	I've been -ENOTIME this whole month, for which I apologize.	02 Jul 13:09
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v ctyler		02 Jul 13:09
jwb	should we clarify we don't mean packager sponsorship?	02 Jul 13:09
stickster	jwb: Well, our previous agendas lay it out, but yes -- this is about *project* sponsorship	02 Jul 13:10
ctyler		02 Jul 13:10
* ctyler apologizes for being late, anticipates that his network problems may rear their ugly head again in a few minutes		02 Jul 13:10
stickster	As in a commercial firm that wishes to give some sort of service or other non-labor contribution	02 Jul 13:10
mmcgrath	http://fedoraproject.org/sponsors	02 Jul 13:10
stickster	mmcgrath: Yes, for example, that page	02 Jul 13:10
stickster	The next item of work TODO is for me to write a proposal on the wiki laying out equivalency for sponsorship levels. What does it take to have your name on that page?	02 Jul 13:11
poelcat		02 Jul 13:11
* poelcat notes you may have to disable adblock to actually see sponsor logos		02 Jul 13:11
mmcgrath	poelcat: they are, technically, ads :)	02 Jul 13:11
stickster	We frequently have people ask whether mirroring Fedora gives them eligibility for that page, for example. Consensus is that it does not.	02 Jul 13:12
Oxf13	ACTION. apologies. this is jesse on mu iPhone. will not be able to respond quickly	02 Jul 13:12
stickster	Any questions on this?	02 Jul 13:12
stickster	If not, I'll move on and have something for the Board next week.	02 Jul 13:13
mmcgrath	stickster: are these going to be hard rules or allow for exceptions?	02 Jul 13:13
dgilmore	stickster: right but perhaps we could have a logo added to mirrormanager that can be displayed	02 Jul 13:13
stickster	mmcgrath: I think exceptions are within the province of the Board	02 Jul 13:13
mmcgrath	k	02 Jul 13:13
Oxf13	what happens when a company wants to donate people?	02 Jul 13:13
stickster	dgilmore: Sure, we aren't blocking that either	02 Jul 13:13
poelcat	Have we detailed anywhere what we want to accomplish with the sponsorship page?	02 Jul 13:14
mmcgrath	dgilmore: and, of course, they're allowed to brand their mirror any way they want.	02 Jul 13:14
dgilmore	mmcgrath: right	02 Jul 13:14
stickster	poelcat: It's in previous sponsorship threads in the Board list	02 Jul 13:14
mmcgrath	poelcat: I kind of wondered that too, I'm not sure what problem we're trying to fix.	02 Jul 13:14
stickster	I have to round those up as part of the proposal, which is why it's taken so long to get it done.	02 Jul 13:14
mmcgrath	bit I figured I'd wait until I saw the proposal before digging further.	02 Jul 13:14
mmcgrath	s/bit/but/	02 Jul 13:15
stickster	mmcgrath: +1, I think that's probably best for now.	02 Jul 13:15
stickster	I just wanted to give a status (which was essentially, "I haven't got this done, apologies")	02 Jul 13:15
* stickster sees our time is up for this topic, let's move on		02 Jul 13:15
stickster	The next topic is the "What is Fedora?" topic. This depends on spot and caillon's proposals, which were delayed from last week due to LinuxTag and a couple other speedbumps.	02 Jul 13:16
spot	-ENOTIME	02 Jul 13:16
spot	i'll do my best to have something for next week	02 Jul 13:17
stickster	spot: Can you remind us what specifically your proposal concerned?	02 Jul 13:17
* stickster notes there is a pending question in f-b-questions that might read on this.		02 Jul 13:17
spot	uhh...	02 Jul 13:17
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v ctyler_		02 Jul 13:17
spot	it has been a while, i would have to go back in the logs to figure out what i committed to do	02 Jul 13:17
Oxf13	/me wonders if having this defined would have made the last two weeks of #fedora-devel any different	02 Jul 13:17
stickster	IIRC it concerned changes in the website and the presentation of the default Fedora live spin	02 Jul 13:18
jwb	Oxf13, possibly. but i doubt overly much	02 Jul 13:18
ctyler_		02 Jul 13:18
* ctyler_ has wondered the same thing		02 Jul 13:18
spot	stickster: i don't think it was that specific, i think it was more of a "many spins, one default."	02 Jul 13:18
stickster	spot: May well have been. My memory is probably colored by the f-devel-l thread	02 Jul 13:19
stickster	spot: I think it would be good to have this ready for next week's discussion so we can make some progress	02 Jul 13:19
spot		02 Jul 13:19
* spot is not a website designer, has no UI training, completely unqualified to tell anyone how to design a website		02 Jul 13:19
stickster	I'll tickle caillon as well	02 Jul 13:19
spot	i think caillon is at GUADEC?	02 Jul 13:20
stickster	Oh, right, there's a serious conference going on in Gran Canaria I believe	02 Jul 13:20
stickster	OK, not sure when that ends.	02 Jul 13:20
Oxf13	"changes must not break default spin unless prior agreement is reached" or something like that	02 Jul 13:20
notting	11	02 Jul 13:21
Oxf13	stickster: 10 days or so	02 Jul 13:21
dgilmore	spot: you and me both	02 Jul 13:21
stickster	Hm, that means he won't resurface until the week after next. So I guess spot, if you can have yours ready next week, I'll ask caillon to have his for the week after.	02 Jul 13:21
stickster	Probably best to move on, and hit nirik's question when we get to Q&A	02 Jul 13:22
stickster	The next item was on secondary arch	02 Jul 13:22
stickster	The pending question was, can the group setting up for PPC use the existing PPC build hardware?	02 Jul 13:23
dgilmore	we could allow them to use some of the ppc machines	02 Jul 13:23
stickster	The last meeting we had on this topic, two weeks back, was missing some of the people who knew the most about infrastructure and builders. Since those people are here now, we stand a better chance of getting the answer. :-)	02 Jul 13:23
* stickster sets clock for 10 min		02 Jul 13:23
dgilmore	we will still requires some for epel and F-10 F-11 and F-12	02 Jul 13:23
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:23
* mmcgrath notes this sounds like a better deal to them then it is.		02 Jul 13:23
Oxf13	I still say yes if infra team can figure a safe way for this to happen	02 Jul 13:23
mmcgrath	the warranty on all of our blades is up in October.	02 Jul 13:24
jwb	mmcgrath, ?	02 Jul 13:24
jwb	oh	02 Jul 13:24
mmcgrath	I'm going to try to extend that a year.	02 Jul 13:24
jwb	october+1year is better than nothing	02 Jul 13:24
mmcgrath	I think I've got enough budget for all that, (this includes our x86_64 builders.	02 Jul 13:24
mmcgrath	but we'll likely have to revisit then.	02 Jul 13:24
mmcgrath	I'll have to look at our non-blade hardware.	02 Jul 13:24
jwb	if we find it generally agreeable, i was thinking 1 or 2 of the 6 blades could be repurposed once F13 devel starts	02 Jul 13:25
mmcgrath	we've got ppc4 which is a pretty beefy box, probably has 2 years left before it gets EOLed	02 Jul 13:25
Oxf13	when the warrenty is up do we just pull them? or just leave them busted when they break?	02 Jul 13:25
dgilmore	mmcgrath: non blade is possibly out of warranty now	02 Jul 13:25
stickster	Oxf13: that's an advisory vote since the new Board is seated for this meeting, right? :-)	02 Jul 13:25
mmcgrath	dgilmore: I think all but ppc4 is	02 Jul 13:25
jwb	so does anyone think it's not reasonable to reuse exiting ppc builders?	02 Jul 13:25
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:26
* mmcgrath can't think of any.		02 Jul 13:26
jwb	maybe we should start there :)	02 Jul 13:26
Oxf13	yes. I was restating my position from previous board meetings	02 Jul 13:26
dgilmore	mmcgrath: ppc4 would be the iffy ones. ppc1 and 2 are very old and have been in use since not long after extras started	02 Jul 13:26
jwb	guys, that's implementation details	02 Jul 13:26
mmcgrath	I've given a potential proposal to dennis and tom about future secondary arch hosting.	02 Jul 13:26
mmcgrath	I haven't really heard back though about moving forward with that or not.	02 Jul 13:26
dgilmore	jwb: i think its reasonable to transition some of them. we will always require at least 2 in fedora for EPEL	02 Jul 13:26
stickster	I think jwb originally brought this question, and just wanted to know if the Board was for or against the reuse of the hardware in general. Is that correct Josh?	02 Jul 13:26
jwb	stickster, correct. the ppc sig can work with infrastructure to map out a plan. they just need approval from the board to use the hardwrae	02 Jul 13:27
notting		02 Jul 13:28
* notting is for the re-usage in this case, but does not feel it should be a precedent in other cases		02 Jul 13:28
stickster	Are we specifically allowing this reuse so that we can get a viable secondary arch off the ground?	02 Jul 13:28
dgilmore	stickster: we have viable secondary arches. bootstrapping them is not easy. ppc will have a jump in that its bootstrapped	02 Jul 13:29
jwb	we have viable secondary arch efforts. i've yet to see one release	02 Jul 13:29
stickster	dgilmore: i.e. previously maintained by Project personnel, you mean?	02 Jul 13:29
poelcat	dgilmore: could it potentially help lead the way for the others?	02 Jul 13:29
Oxf13	in my opinion yes plus we already have ppc hardware hosted so this isn't asking much of the infra team. different than hosting a s390	02 Jul 13:29
dgilmore	stickster:i guess not since i dont understand what you mean by that statement	02 Jul 13:30
dgilmore	poelcat: not at all.	02 Jul 13:30
spot	+1 for permission to use the hardware, and let ppc and infrastructure work out the specifics	02 Jul 13:30
* stickster apologizes for being unclear or marginalizing any other secondary arch efforts		02 Jul 13:30
dgilmore	poelcat: the hardest part is getting things built to match rawhide	02 Jul 13:30
poelcat	+1 to spots proposal	02 Jul 13:30
jwb	dgilmore, that's after you have hardware to build stuff one	02 Jul 13:31
dgilmore	+1 for the use fo the hardware	02 Jul 13:31
jwb	er, on	02 Jul 13:31
notting	+1 to spot's proposal	02 Jul 13:31
stickster	dgilmore: What I was asking was, does "bootstrapped" mean previously maintained inside the Fedora Project itself	02 Jul 13:31
jwb	wasn't that my proposal?	02 Jul 13:31
jwb	bah. +1 to spots stole proposal	02 Jul 13:31
jwb	;)	02 Jul 13:31
dgilmore	jwb: right, hardware for building and disk for /mnt/koji are quite large investments	02 Jul 13:31
dgilmore	stickster: no bootstrapping means going from something/nothing to having the exact same builds as fedora	02 Jul 13:32
dgilmore	stickster: so ppc is already bootstrapped	02 Jul 13:32
stickster	dgilmore: OK, that's what I was trying to get at, thanks	02 Jul 13:32
dgilmore	other arches are not	02 Jul 13:32
stickster	I think we should make the additional point that this decision is made on the basis of the particular case of PPC, and not a blanket rule for offering hardware to other arches	02 Jul 13:32
Oxf13	+1	02 Jul 13:33
stickster	Oxf13: (in your advisory capacity) ;-)	02 Jul 13:33
dgilmore	stickster: right we dont have hardware for other arches. and if we did it could be evaluated as needed.	02 Jul 13:33
notting	but please do not ship boxes to mmcgrath and dgilmore	02 Jul 13:33
dgilmore	stickster: they still need a largish investment in hardware for the ppc hub and primary storage	02 Jul 13:34
stickster	mmcgrath: Your vote?	02 Jul 13:34
dgilmore	notting: :)	02 Jul 13:34
mmcgrath	+1 I guess	02 Jul 13:34
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:35
* mmcgrath is a little confused why we're actually voting.		02 Jul 13:35
poelcat	i understand the issue to be that we are breaking from the policy of requring all secondary arches to provide their own hardware	02 Jul 13:35
stickster	jwb's original question asked for a Board clarification because of that	02 Jul 13:36
stickster	I see six +1's, so spot's proposal is carried.	02 Jul 13:36
stickster	The next issue is the toxicity follow-up.	02 Jul 13:37
stickster	At this point, we have three items pending:	02 Jul 13:37
stickster	1. write policy for how moderation works to the wiki	02 Jul 13:37
stickster	2. appoint moderators and note them as well	02 Jul 13:37
stickster	3. create list for moderators to use to record their work	02 Jul 13:37
stickster	We hashed out most of #1, it just needs to be codified on the wiki. I believe that information is all written up in the past Board minutes	02 Jul 13:38
stickster	Is there anyone who can write up that page by next week?	02 Jul 13:38
* stickster plate is full and needs to delegate something here		02 Jul 13:39
spot		02 Jul 13:39
* spot is far too overloaded to volunteer		02 Jul 13:39
stickster	spot: understandable, np	02 Jul 13:39
stickster	jwb: Any chance I could sucker you into that?	02 Jul 13:39
jwb	yes	02 Jul 13:40
stickster	jwb: OK, thank you sir.	02 Jul 13:40
stickster	jwb: I'll be available as always to help/advise/edit.	02 Jul 13:40
jwb	though i'll need a bit of a recap on #1	02 Jul 13:40
jwb	if i have questions	02 Jul 13:40
stickster	jwb: np, I'll get you pointers and so forth -- get with me after this or whenever convenient	02 Jul 13:40
jwb	yep	02 Jul 13:41
stickster	For moderators... we had a couple volunteers already who are @RH, but I would also like to see a volunteer moderator. I would also say that this venue may not be the right place to just toss around names, in case that person is not interested.	02 Jul 13:41
stickster	We don't want to put anyone in an uncomfortable place by publicly asking them to help if they're not willing.	02 Jul 13:42
stickster	I would propose we do that this week on the f-board-l for that reason. In any case, this isn't a blocker for #3, the list establishment	02 Jul 13:42
Oxf13	erm. even if @ redhat they are still volunteers	02 Jul 13:43
stickster	Oxf13: oops, I meant to write non-RH volunteer moderator. Note that I referred to the @RH folks as volunteers as well	02 Jul 13:43
stickster	"...I would also like to see a *non-RH* volunteer moderator"	02 Jul 13:43
* stickster goes back in time and corrects his buffer		02 Jul 13:43
stickster	dgilmore: Would you be willing to get a list established for the moderators?	02 Jul 13:44
stickster	Note this list would be strictly for recording moderation done.	02 Jul 13:44
Oxf13	why does @redhat or not matter? aren't we trying to end that fud?	02 Jul 13:45
dgilmore	stickster: sure	02 Jul 13:45
dgilmore	Oxf13: right we want volunteers regardless of where they come from	02 Jul 13:45
dgilmore	stickster: we want one mailing list for the moderators to communicate on right? and it should eb an open list	02 Jul 13:46
dgilmore	just so im clear on what im doing	02 Jul 13:46
jwb	open?	02 Jul 13:46
dgilmore	jwb: open archives	02 Jul 13:47
stickster	dgilmore: Thank you for bringing that up. The moderator list is not an open list, for the reasons described in the original proposal.	02 Jul 13:47
dgilmore	stickster: ok	02 Jul 13:47
stickster	The reasons are the same as those for privately notifying the moderated individual that they've been moderated.	02 Jul 13:47
dgilmore	stickster: understood	02 Jul 13:47
stickster	OK, let's move on -- I want to get to Q&A	02 Jul 13:48
stickster	Last topic is cross-project mailing list	02 Jul 13:48
stickster	This was an idea that John put on the FAB, to help with cross-team collaboration. It doesn't need Board approval any more than any other list.	02 Jul 13:49
mmcgrath	stickster: then why has it come up?  :)	02 Jul 13:49
stickster	We wanted to make sure that Board people saw this idea, and that people interested in the Board (and thus the Project at large) see it as well	02 Jul 13:49
poelcat		02 Jul 13:49
* poelcat is probably going to call it logistics@lists.fedoraproject.org		02 Jul 13:49
stickster	This meeting has attendees beyond the FAB list (or even Fedora) membership.	02 Jul 13:49
stickster	poelcat: Sounds reasonable to me	02 Jul 13:50
* stickster notes for any of those listeners, for more information, simply follow the FAB thread:		02 Jul 13:50
jwb	that's fine with me too	02 Jul 13:50
Oxf13	is this for release coordination and the like?	02 Jul 13:50
jwb	and i think the list is a great idea	02 Jul 13:50
stickster	Oxf13: Yes	02 Jul 13:50
Oxf13	sorry disregard	02 Jul 13:50
jwb	Oxf13, cross-project communication	02 Jul 13:50
stickster	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-July/msg00000.html	02 Jul 13:51
stickster	OK, time to move to Q&A	02 Jul 13:51
stickster	We have a couple of questions waiting already in the queue	02 Jul 13:51
stickster	[0] from nirik: I have a question about who fedora is for (which I know the Board has been working on). Should things like the get-fedora page target new to fedora/linux users? Or should we target it more at advanced users who know what gnome/kde/xfce are? Or can the board answer yet before the target market is decided?	02 Jul 13:51
notting	"things that require multi-group coordination so to avoid cross-posting everywhere"	02 Jul 13:51
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v nirik		02 Jul 13:52
stickster	nirik: I posted your question, sorry	02 Jul 13:52
notting	i think 1) a final answer should probably wait for the rest of the 'what is fedora' discussion 2) in general, it's better to target more new users and let more experienced users find what they need than to try and do the reverse	02 Jul 13:52
nirik	thats fine. I would only have done the same. ;)	02 Jul 13:52
jwb	notting, yes	02 Jul 13:53
* stickster agrees as well.		02 Jul 13:53
jwb	i simply think targeting advanced users is too limiting in terms of growing the fedora user base	02 Jul 13:54
mmcgrath	experienced users != new users. I think Fedora should target experienced users, and that our fedoraproject.org pages should reflect that.	02 Jul 13:54
stickster	Targeting advanced users for the download page itself is definitely limiting.	02 Jul 13:55
stickster	It's a different question for the Project as a whole.	02 Jul 13:55
jwb	mmcgrath, but then you are immediately pitting yourself in a distro war	02 Jul 13:55
mmcgrath	jwb: just the opposite.	02 Jul 13:55
jwb	"hey person that already knows linux and stuff! come use fedora instead of <$distro>!"	02 Jul 13:55
mmcgrath	experienced users can make those decisions for themselves.	02 Jul 13:56
mmcgrath		02 Jul 13:56
* mmcgrath just is tired of us trying to please everyone.		02 Jul 13:56
mmcgrath	we should pick, and stick to it.	02 Jul 13:56
mmcgrath	let other distros pick up new linux users.	02 Jul 13:56
jwb	why is that?	02 Jul 13:56
stickster	I think the get-fedora page is not typically a page that experienced users need, and therefore targeting them there is a failure.	02 Jul 13:57
jwb	stickster, i agree with that too	02 Jul 13:57
mmcgrath	stickster: even I use get.fedoraproject.org when I download fedora.	02 Jul 13:57
nirik	I will note that often we get people in #fedora who ask which they should use... KDE or Gnome, or something else. The best answer we can give them is to try them out and use what they like best. There is always going to need to be a default tho	02 Jul 13:57
mmcgrath	I guess I wonder why we're even talking about what the get.fp.o page should look like since we haven't answered who it should be fore.	02 Jul 13:58
mmcgrath	err for	02 Jul 13:58
jwb	mmcgrath, we aren't. nirik asked who it should be for :)	02 Jul 13:58
Oxf13	mmagrath: but you already know what you are looking for	02 Jul 13:58
stickster	mmcgrath: Which is exactly what notting said :-)	02 Jul 13:58
nirik		02 Jul 13:58
* nirik nods. Thats the deep down question.		02 Jul 13:58
notting		02 Jul 13:58
* notting just uses wget http://download.fedora.... and types the URLs by hand. i don't think we should optimize for that case :)		02 Jul 13:58
mmcgrath	and I think Fedora should be for experienced users... and that all of our fedoraproject.org pages should reflect that :)	02 Jul 13:58
dgilmore	stickster: i agree i never go to get-fedora	02 Jul 13:59
jwb	mmcgrath, ok. others feel that is too limiting	02 Jul 13:59
mmcgrath	what do others feel? We should be for experienced users and new users?	02 Jul 13:59
mmcgrath	are we having this discussion now?	02 Jul 13:59
jwb	no, i think we said to sort of delay it	02 Jul 14:00
mmcgrath	k	02 Jul 14:00
nirik	there is also a blurry line if you just say 'new' or experienced... how new is new?	02 Jul 14:00
stickster	nirik: Noted, definitely. That's not how one should define an audience.	02 Jul 14:00
stickster	So in summary there's more discussion to be had here.	02 Jul 14:02
stickster	We have another question	02 Jul 14:02
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v nirik		02 Jul 14:02
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v _Hicham_		02 Jul 14:02
dgilmore	nirik: most days i still think im a novice user.	02 Jul 14:03
stickster	_Hicham_ asks: I have a question about mono, what is the status of mono in Fedora 12?	02 Jul 14:03
stickster	_Hicham_: You are now voiced.	02 Jul 14:03
_Hicham_	thanks stickster	02 Jul 14:03
mmcgrath	when did that become a board question?	02 Jul 14:03
spot		02 Jul 14:03
* spot wonders why that isn't a Fedora Legal question		02 Jul 14:03
jwb	do you mean from a legal perspective?	02 Jul 14:03
dgilmore	_Hicham_: AFAIK its not changed from previous releases	02 Jul 14:03
spot	but since I'm here...	02 Jul 14:03
_Hicham_	yes, there is a lot of concerns over mono	02 Jul 14:03
dgilmore	until the OIN doesnt cover us it remains	02 Jul 14:03
spot	There is no change in the legal status of mono.	02 Jul 14:03
stickster	The only change we know of are that Tomboy has been replaced in the default Live spin by Gnote to slim down the dependencies	02 Jul 14:04
stickster	s/are/is/ <-- bad grammar, sorry	02 Jul 14:04
notting	mono is still included, moonlight is still very much not.	02 Jul 14:04
spot	So, barring some event that would change that answer, mono will be part of Fedora 12.	02 Jul 14:04
_Hicham_	so we are counting on OIN until there is a change in their policy?	02 Jul 14:04
stickster	Despite vehement voices to the contrary, and thank you to mether for shining some light in that regard.	02 Jul 14:04
spot	(As stickster points out, it probably won't be on the Default LiveCD due to space reasons)	02 Jul 14:05
notting	and it may or may not be on the default 'Fedora' DVD, depending on how those live group decisions trickle down	02 Jul 14:05
stickster	_Hicham_: Change in whose policy?	02 Jul 14:05
notting	Nushio: as it stands now, gnote would be on the DVD, not tomboy.	02 Jul 14:05
stickster	OIN's?	02 Jul 14:05
_Hicham_	rms pointed out lately that mono shouldn't be given by default	02 Jul 14:06
_Hicham_	stickster : yes, OIN's policy	02 Jul 14:06
notting	but f-spot is still a default package for the DVD	02 Jul 14:06
spot	_Hicham_: RMS is, as usual, entitled to his own opinions.	02 Jul 14:06
spot	his opinions do not affect the fact that mono is available under a free license	02 Jul 14:06
_Hicham_	I think that removing it from the DVD would be useful too	02 Jul 14:06
spot	(there is also some irony in how RMS decides to vilify patents.)	02 Jul 14:07
_Hicham_	encouring development on the mono platform is risky	02 Jul 14:07
_Hicham_	*encouarging	02 Jul 14:07
spot		02 Jul 14:07
* spot encourages people to research the risks of their own actions individually		02 Jul 14:07
_Hicham_	also, why isn't mono available for RHEL?	02 Jul 14:08
stickster	That's not a question for Fedora, is it?	02 Jul 14:08
spot	_Hicham_: now you're really asking the wrong group.	02 Jul 14:08
_Hicham_	spot : I am trying to know the legal issues	02 Jul 14:08
stickster	_Hicham_: I would encourage you to contact the fedora-legal-list for more information about legal status in Fedora	02 Jul 14:08
stickster	RHEL issues are not decided by the Fedora Board.	02 Jul 14:09
stickster	We have another question waiting and we're overtime	02 Jul 14:09
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v _Hicham_		02 Jul 14:09
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v jmbuser		02 Jul 14:09
stickster	Go ahead jmbuser	02 Jul 14:09
stickster	Me pastes in case jmbuser is no longer available	02 Jul 14:10
jmbuser	Has it been decided that all documentation (including the wiki) is going to be covered by a Creative Commons license? Is this approved by legal and what does it cover?	02 Jul 14:10
stickster	oh, thanks :-)	02 Jul 14:10
stickster	It's something that quaid is pursuing currently, I believe.	02 Jul 14:10
stickster	RH Legal doesn't decide these matters for Fedora, but for what it's worth they are fully supportive of it.	02 Jul 14:10
spot	There are no legal roadblocks to moving to a CC license.	02 Jul 14:11
stickster	A CC license gives us much greater data interchange with other projects	02 Jul 14:11
spot	well, i should say, one of the "free CC licenses"	02 Jul 14:11
stickster	Right, CC BY-SA 3.0 is the particular license we're looking at, IIRC	02 Jul 14:11
stickster	It has eliminated some of the perceived discrepancies in a previous version	02 Jul 14:11
--- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v caillon		02 Jul 14:12
stickster	I believe quaid is also working with the RH Docs folks to make sure that a licensing change happens fairly contemporaneously	02 Jul 14:12
jmbuser	That clrifies things...thanks	02 Jul 14:12
stickster	Thanks for your question jmbuser	02 Jul 14:13
stickster	(and previous question askers too) :-)	02 Jul 14:13
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v jmbuser		02 Jul 14:13
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v Nushio		02 Jul 14:13
stickster	Nushio: Did you have a question remaining?	02 Jul 14:13
Nushio	I have a question about the default Bluetooth manager. Can it really be changed to something else, or are we stuck with whatever Gnome provides?	02 Jul 14:13
Nushio	(this question is towards bluetooth, but the logic could apply to any component)	02 Jul 14:13
mmcgrath		02 Jul 14:14
* mmcgrath believes thats a FESCo question		02 Jul 14:14
stickster	I think this is probably outside the Board's purview	02 Jul 14:14
caillon	i'm pretty sure that different spins have different bluetooth managers	02 Jul 14:14
dgilmore	Nushio: its a fesco issue not a board one	02 Jul 14:14
notting	this isn't really a board-level question. i suspect that you'd need to convince the desktop or kde sigs as to the benefits of changing what they use	02 Jul 14:14
Nushio	sorry then	02 Jul 14:14
mmcgrath	Nushio: no worries, we could do a better job of clarifying what questions belong where.	02 Jul 14:14
stickster	mmcgrath: True, maybe you could draft something on the Board IRC page where we point people for these meetings?	02 Jul 14:15
stickster	I'd be happy to edit/help	02 Jul 14:15
mmcgrath	sure	02 Jul 14:15
stickster	Board/IRC	02 Jul 14:15
stickster	Eggscellent	02 Jul 14:15
caillon	(wow, we list the channel settings on what we give people?)	02 Jul 14:17
stickster	Regardless, I think caillon has this right -- not sure what LXDE, XFCE, etc. use for this purpose, but spins are free to create their own capability stacks	02 Jul 14:17
Nushio	understood, thanks, and sorry again for asking the board	02 Jul 14:17
stickster	caillon: I think that page is slightly out of date -- I used completely different commands for this purpose when setting up the f-b-questions channels.	02 Jul 14:17
stickster	Nushio: Thanks for your question!	02 Jul 14:17
stickster	I think that does it for the community question queue	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	I also wanted to say a big public thank you	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	to Chris Tyler	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	Harald Hoyer	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	Jesse Keating	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	Seth Vidal	02 Jul 14:18
stickster	for their services to the Board and to the Fedora community.	02 Jul 14:19
notting	three cheers for our dearly departed members. don't go too far!	02 Jul 14:19
stickster	well-deserving of recognition for the way they constantly looked out for community interests in our meetings and other proceedings	02 Jul 14:19
stickster	I think that does it for this meeting then	02 Jul 14:20
stickster	Thank you to everyone for coming, and we'll soon get our schedule straightened out for our regular phone meeting.	02 Jul 14:20
stickster	Community members: the monthly IRC meeting may change in accordance with that schedule, heads up. I'll make sure to highlight this in next month's announcements.	02 Jul 14:20
* stickster will post the log to the wiki per usual.		02 Jul 14:21
stickster	Thank you Board! See you next week.	02 Jul 14:21
stickster	</meeting>	02 Jul 14:21

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