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[[Category:Docs_Project_meeting_logs]] | |||
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! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | ! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | ||
| style="color: #407a40" | | | style="color: #407a40" | [[Help_talk:Wiki_Structure]] | ||
|| [[#t12:10|12:10]] | || [[#t12:10|12:10]] | ||
|- id="t12:10" | |- id="t12:10" | ||
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| style="color: #407a40" | </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> | | style="color: #407a40" | </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> | ||
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] | || [[#t12:18|12:18]] | ||
|- id="t12:18" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | <meeting> | |||
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] | |||
|- id="t12:18" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming | |||
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] | |||
|- id="t12:18" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit | |||
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] | |||
|- id="t12:18" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I have to admit I've waffled again :) | |||
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] | |||
|- id="t12:19" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one | |||
|| [[#t12:19|12:19]] | |||
|- id="t12:19" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | so I'm back to this: | |||
|| [[#t12:19|12:19]] | |||
|- id="t12:20" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content | |||
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] | |||
|- id="t12:20" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] | |||
|- id="t12:20" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux | |||
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] | |||
|- id="t12:21" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name | |||
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] | |||
|- id="t12:21" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | the controversy is around 1. | |||
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] | |||
|- id="t12:21" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise: | |||
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] | |||
|- id="t12:21" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- cassmodiah [n=cass@p54AB6F63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] | |||
|- id="t12:21" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders | |||
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] | |||
|- id="t12:22" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc. | |||
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] | |||
|- id="t12:22" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- jsmith [n=jsmith@72.21.36.138] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] | |||
|- id="t12:22" | |||
| colspan="2" | * jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in | |||
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] | |||
|- id="t12:22" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space | |||
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] | |||
|- id="t12:22" | |||
| colspan="2" | * quaid pm's the status to jsmith | |||
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] | |||
|- id="t12:23" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move? | |||
|| [[#t12:23|12:23]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | <eolist><eof> | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | thoughts? | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
| colspan="2" | * ke4qqq respectfully disagrees | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | yay! | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:24" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | go ahead | |||
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | plaintext is better for searching | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | the / doesn't get in the way | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | it's treated by the search tool as a space | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | does google agree with that though? | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:25" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | does google treat it as a space? | |||
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | how do we test that? | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | hmmm what do I know then | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | Yes, I think Google does the right thing | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | " | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | Nest or not, who cares?" | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:26" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | we should guide people to not nest | |||
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has quit ["Leaving"] | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | we just need to pick out one | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | DocsProject | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know@fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"] | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:27" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim | |||
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] | |||
|- id="t12:28" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best | |||
|| [[#t12:28|12:28]] | |||
|- id="t12:28" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | and there is a lot of legacy | |||
|| [[#t12:28|12:28]] | |||
|- id="t12:29" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing | |||
|| [[#t12:29|12:29]] | |||
|- id="t12:29" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea | |||
|| [[#t12:29|12:29]] | |||
|- id="t12:29" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested? | |||
|| [[#t12:29|12:29]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | I thought searching was the reason | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- buggbot [n=supybot@landfill.bugzilla.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
| colspan="2" | * ke4qqq is confused | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- buggbot [n=supybot@landfill.bugzilla.org] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:30" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | this would work though, in terms of MW search: | |||
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] | |||
|- id="t12:31" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something | |||
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] | |||
|- id="t12:31" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" " | |||
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] | |||
|- id="t12:31" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | "something" and "foo" | |||
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] | |||
|- id="t12:31" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- techbugs [n=siddhart@122.163.194.65] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] | |||
|- id="t12:33" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise | |||
|| [[#t12:33|12:33]] | |||
|- id="t12:34" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page | |||
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] | |||
|- id="t12:34" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I think the why goes over better. | |||
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] | |||
|- id="t12:34" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower | |||
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] | |||
|- id="t12:35" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway | |||
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] | |||
|- id="t12:35" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | true | |||
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] | |||
|- id="t12:38" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time? | |||
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] | |||
|- id="t12:38" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | has to admit that is a question I was asking myself | |||
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] | |||
|- id="t12:38" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | now now | |||
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] | |||
|- id="t12:38" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-) | |||
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | two main reasons: | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * we need natural language for sane translation | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | sane(r) trans, anyway | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons. | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:39" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well | |||
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] | |||
|- id="t12:40" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming? | |||
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] | |||
|- id="t12:40" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting | |||
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] | |||
|- id="t12:41" | |||
| colspan="2" | * quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste. | |||
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] | |||
|- id="t12:41" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all. | |||
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] | |||
|- id="t12:41" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting | |||
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] | |||
|- id="t12:42" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW | |||
|| [[#t12:42|12:42]] | |||
|- id="t12:42" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | Namespace: moves it outside of the default search | |||
|| [[#t12:42|12:42]] | |||
|- id="t12:42" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | this all stems from having two audiences, IMO | |||
|| [[#t12:42|12:42]] | |||
|- id="t12:43" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results | |||
|| [[#t12:43|12:43]] | |||
|- id="t12:44" | |||
| colspan="2" | * stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace | |||
|| [[#t12:44|12:44]] | |||
|- id="t12:45" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | yep | |||
|| [[#t12:45|12:45]] | |||
|- id="t12:46" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will | |||
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]] | |||
|- id="t12:48" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | Discussion seems to have petered out. | |||
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] | |||
|- id="t12:48" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | Has a decision been taken then? | |||
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] | |||
|- id="t12:48" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- mclasen [n=mclasen@nat/redhat/x-281775b2292f2fd4] has left #fedora-meeting ["There must be some way out of here."] | |||
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] | |||
|- id="t12:48" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | Is wiki naming put to bed now? | |||
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] | |||
|- id="t12:49" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["夠荒唐"] | |||
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] | |||
|- id="t12:49" | |||
| colspan="2" | * ke4qqq didn't see a decision | |||
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] | |||
|- id="t12:50" | |||
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | wonderer1 | |||
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming... | |||
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] | |||
|- id="t12:50" | |||
| colspan="2" | * couf hopes to put it to bed | |||
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] | |||
|- id="t12:51" | |||
| colspan="2" | * ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat | |||
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] | |||
|- id="t12:51" | |||
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | wonderer1 | |||
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on... | |||
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] | |||
|- id="t12:51" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this? | |||
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] | |||
|- id="t12:53" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | hmm | |||
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] | |||
|- id="t12:53" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD252C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] | |||
|- id="t12:53" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions) | |||
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] | |||
|- id="t12:54" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I can do a final write up there | |||
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] | |||
|- id="t12:54" | |||
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | wonderer1 | |||
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | sounds good | |||
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] | |||
|- id="t12:54" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | but before I say "this is the decision" | |||
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] | |||
|- id="t12:54" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | are we in fact decided? | |||
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] | |||
|- id="t12:54" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places, | |||
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] | |||
|- id="t12:55" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | Let's make this clear. | |||
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] | |||
|- id="t12:55" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | so this is what I would like to do: | |||
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] | |||
|- id="t12:55" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list | |||
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] | |||
|- id="t12:55" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * invite discussion | |||
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
| colspan="2" | * jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?) | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | Wait, haven't we had that before? | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
| colspan="2" | * ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | hmm | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:56" | |||
| colspan="2" | * couf needs to run, sorry folks | |||
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | fine | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | couf: Please vote later by email if desired | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | jsmith: +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | stickster: will do | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- giarc [i=hidden-u@gnat.asiscan.com] has joined #fedora-meeting | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
| colspan="2" | -!- drago01 [n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
| colspan="2" | * jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:57" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | jsmith: +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | +1 or -1 to: Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting? | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | I have no problem with single nesting personally | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #488888" | jsmith | |||
| style="color: #488888" | +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | wonderer1 | |||
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #818144" | ke4qqq | |||
| style="color: #818144" | +1 | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I'm +1, fwiw | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | yay! | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :) | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:58" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | note: permit, not encourage :) | |||
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
! style="background-color: #42427e" | couf | |||
| style="color: #42427e" | +1 :) | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
! style="background-color: #854685" | stickster | |||
| style="color: #854685" | +1 again. | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | everyone watch that page | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | [[Help:Wiki_structure]] | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
| colspan="2" | * couf really runs | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t12:59" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | and I'll write up the final version | |||
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] | |||
|- id="t13:00" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :) | |||
|| [[#t13:00|13:00]] | |||
|- id="t13:00" | |||
| colspan="2" | * jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it | |||
|| [[#t13:00|13:00]] | |||
|- id="t13:01" | |||
| colspan="2" | * stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him | |||
|| [[#t13:01|13:01]] | |||
|- id="t13:01" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | time's up anyway | |||
|| [[#t13:01|13:01]] | |||
|- id="t13:01" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | I'll do it | |||
|| [[#t13:01|13:01]] | |||
|- id="t13:01" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | anything more, see you on #fedora-docs | |||
|| [[#t13:01|13:01]] | |||
|- id="t13:01" | |||
! style="background-color: #407a40" | quaid | |||
| style="color: #407a40" | </meeting> | |||
|| [[#t13:01|13:01]] | |||
|} | |} | ||
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Latest revision as of 08:36, 18 September 2016
quaid | <meeting> | 12:04 |
---|---|---|
quaid | :) | 12:04 |
quaid | no, I got lost and never made it to the agenda this morning | 12:04 |
quaid | it's essentially the same | 12:04 |
quaid | I was hoping ianweller_afk and G might be here, but I think their thuoghts are well known | 12:05 |
quaid | about wiki page naming | 12:05 |
quaid | but I think we need a compromise, I think I know what it has to be, and it is not that great but not terrible. | 12:05 |
couf | G is on IRC-break | 12:05 |
-!- ke4qqq_ [n=ke4qqq@64.89.94.194.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #fedora-docs | 12:05 | |
quaid | couf: as an action to protect his life and sanity? or just AFK? | 12:06 |
couf | the former | 12:06 |
-!- ke4qqq [n=ke4qqq@64.89.94.194.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] | 12:06 | |
-!- ke4qqq_ is now known as ke4qqq | 12:06 | |
-!- MegaCoder [n=MegaCode@apac-nc01-o.oracle.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving."] | 12:07 | |
quaid | ok | 12:07 |
quaid | well, like I said, opinion known, etc. :) | 12:07 |
quaid | ok, so here's my agenda, any additions? | 12:09 |
quaid | 1. finish wiki page naming | 12:09 |
quaid | 2. scope package guidelines changes | 12:09 |
couf | I'm is totally out the loop, but I guess you guys made some good arguments and can make a good decision about it | 12:09 |
quaid | 3. double-check on release deadlines | 12:09 |
quaid | 4. ?? | 12:10 |
quaid | couf: 17 < quaid> overholt: can you refresh me on what came from talks with JPackage and Fedora? | 12:10 |
quaid | ... | 12:10 |
quaid | sorry, bad paste | 12:10 |
quaid | Help_talk:Wiki_Structure | 12:10 |
quaid | couf: that's the discussion we had, worth a catch up on | 12:10 |
quaid | ok, if we have any other agenda items ... | 12:11 |
couf | quaid: thanks | 12:11 |
ke4qqq | quaid can we add Example_wiki_page to the agenda | 12:11 |
quaid | ke4qqq: thx | 12:12 |
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-!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know@fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-docs | 12:14 | |
* stickster gets off phone with mgr | 12:15 | |
couf | we can move to -meeting if we want to | 12:15 |
stickster | yeah, what couf said ^^ | 12:16 |
-!- denise [n=ddumas@nat/redhat/x-cb3ab6211b37d149] has joined #fedora-docs | 12:17 | |
quaid | </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> | 12:18 |
quaid | <meeting> | 12:18 |
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming | 12:18 | |
quaid | ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit | 12:18 |
quaid | I have to admit I've waffled again :) | 12:18 |
quaid | because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one | 12:19 |
quaid | so I'm back to this: | 12:19 |
quaid | 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content | 12:20 |
-!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:20 | |
quaid | 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux | 12:20 |
quaid | 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name | 12:21 |
quaid | the controversy is around 1. | 12:21 |
quaid | here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise: | 12:21 |
-!- cassmodiah [n=cass@p54AB6F63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:21 | |
quaid | * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders | 12:21 |
quaid | * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc. | 12:22 |
-!- jsmith [n=jsmith@72.21.36.138] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:22 | |
* jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in | 12:22 | |
quaid | * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space | 12:22 |
* quaid pm's the status to jsmith | 12:22 | |
quaid | * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move? | 12:23 |
quaid | * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves | 12:24 |
quaid | * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future | 12:24 |
quaid | <eolist><eof> | 12:24 |
quaid | thoughts? | 12:24 |
* ke4qqq respectfully disagrees | 12:24 | |
quaid | yay! | 12:24 |
quaid | go ahead | 12:24 |
ke4qqq | thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext | 12:25 |
ke4qqq | plaintext is better for searching | 12:25 |
quaid | the / doesn't get in the way | 12:25 |
ke4qqq | pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming | 12:25 |
quaid | it's treated by the search tool as a space | 12:25 |
ke4qqq | does google agree with that though? | 12:25 |
ke4qqq | does google treat it as a space? | 12:25 |
quaid | how do we test that? | 12:26 |
quaid | I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up | 12:26 |
quaid | and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase | 12:26 |
ke4qqq | hmmm what do I know then | 12:26 |
-!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] | 12:26 | |
jsmith | Yes, I think Google does the right thing | 12:26 |
quaid | ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame | 12:26 |
quaid | " | 12:26 |
quaid | Nest or not, who cares?" | 12:26 |
quaid | we should guide people to not nest | 12:26 |
-!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has quit ["Leaving"] | 12:27 | |
quaid | but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found | 12:27 |
ke4qqq | we just need to pick out one | 12:27 |
quaid | DocsProject | 12:27 |
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quaid | SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim | 12:27 |
quaid | there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best | 12:28 |
quaid | and there is a lot of legacy | 12:28 |
jsmith | We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing | 12:29 |
jsmith | I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea | 12:29 |
ke4qqq | so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested? | 12:29 |
jsmith | I thought searching was the reason | 12:30 |
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* ke4qqq is confused | 12:30 | |
-!- buggbot [n=supybot@landfill.bugzilla.org] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:30 | |
quaid | ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words | 12:30 |
quaid | this would work though, in terms of MW search: | 12:30 |
quaid | Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something | 12:31 |
quaid | it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" " | 12:31 |
quaid | "something" and "foo" | 12:31 |
-!- techbugs [n=siddhart@122.163.194.65] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:31 | |
couf | fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise | 12:33 |
quaid | jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page | 12:34 |
quaid | if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I think the why goes over better. | 12:34 |
couf | renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower | 12:34 |
quaid | couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway | 12:35 |
couf | true | 12:35 |
jsmith | quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time? | 12:38 |
ke4qqq | has to admit that is a question I was asking myself | 12:38 |
quaid | now now | 12:38 |
jsmith | Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-) | 12:38 |
quaid | two main reasons: | 12:39 |
quaid | * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful | 12:39 |
quaid | * we need natural language for sane translation | 12:39 |
quaid | sane(r) trans, anyway | 12:39 |
jsmith | OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons. | 12:39 |
quaid | i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well | 12:39 |
jsmith | But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming? | 12:40 |
quaid | so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting | 12:40 |
* quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste. | 12:41 | |
ke4qqq | those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all. | 12:41 |
quaid | there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting | 12:41 |
quaid | it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW | 12:42 |
quaid | Namespace: moves it outside of the default search | 12:42 |
quaid | this all stems from having two audiences, IMO | 12:42 |
quaid | and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results | 12:43 |
* stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace | 12:44 | |
quaid | yep | 12:45 |
quaid | in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will | 12:46 |
stickster | Discussion seems to have petered out. | 12:48 |
stickster | Has a decision been taken then? | 12:48 |
-!- mclasen [n=mclasen@nat/redhat/x-281775b2292f2fd4] has left #fedora-meeting ["There must be some way out of here."] | 12:48 | |
stickster | Is wiki naming put to bed now? | 12:48 |
-!- Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["夠荒唐"] | 12:49 | |
* ke4qqq didn't see a decision | 12:49 | |
wonderer1 | so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming... | 12:50 |
* couf hopes to put it to bed | 12:50 | |
* ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat | 12:51 | |
wonderer1 | for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on... | 12:51 |
stickster | quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this? | 12:51 |
quaid | hmm | 12:53 |
-!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD252C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:53 | |
quaid | I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions) | 12:53 |
quaid | I can do a final write up there | 12:54 |
wonderer1 | sounds good | 12:54 |
quaid | but before I say "this is the decision" | 12:54 |
quaid | are we in fact decided? | 12:54 |
quaid | the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places, | 12:54 |
stickster | Let's make this clear. | 12:55 |
quaid | so this is what I would like to do: | 12:55 |
quaid | * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list | 12:55 |
quaid | * invite discussion | 12:55 |
* jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?) | 12:56 | |
stickster | Wait, haven't we had that before? | 12:56 |
* ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued | 12:56 | |
quaid | * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure | 12:56 |
quaid | hmm | 12:56 |
jsmith | I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up | 12:56 |
* couf needs to run, sorry folks | 12:56 | |
quaid | fine | 12:57 |
stickster | couf: Please vote later by email if desired | 12:57 |
ke4qqq | jsmith: +1 | 12:57 |
couf | stickster: will do | 12:57 |
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* jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month | 12:57 | |
stickster | jsmith: +1 | 12:57 |
quaid | +1 or -1 to: Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting? | 12:58 |
couf | +1 | 12:58 |
stickster | +1 | 12:58 |
jsmith | I have no problem with single nesting personally | 12:58 |
jsmith | +1 | 12:58 |
wonderer1 | +1 | 12:58 |
ke4qqq | +1 | 12:58 |
quaid | I'm +1, fwiw | 12:58 |
stickster | yay! | 12:58 |
quaid | ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :) | 12:58 |
quaid | note: permit, not encourage :) | 12:58 |
couf | +1 :) | 12:59 |
stickster | +1 again. | 12:59 |
quaid | everyone watch that page | 12:59 |
quaid | Help:Wiki_structure | 12:59 |
* couf really runs | 12:59 | |
quaid | and I'll write up the final version | 12:59 |
quaid | unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :) | 13:00 |
* jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it | 13:00 | |
* stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him | 13:01 | |
quaid | time's up anyway | 13:01 |
quaid | I'll do it | 13:01 |
quaid | anything more, see you on #fedora-docs | 13:01 |
quaid | </meeting> | 13:01 |
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