Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090218

Sparks	<meeting id="Docs Project">	Feb 18 14:00
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings		Feb 18 14:00
Sparks	Roll Call!	Feb 18 14:00
* Sparks is here		Feb 18 14:00
* ke4qqq is here		Feb 18 14:00
kirkz	Kirkz is here	Feb 18 14:00
* quaid aqui tambien		Feb 18 14:00
* jjmcd too		Feb 18 14:00
Sparks	Okay, welcome back to the party we call the Docs Project.	Feb 18 14:01
* stickster here, sort of		Feb 18 14:01
kirkz	Yeah!!!!!!	Feb 18 14:01
Sparks	And the first item up for bid is...	Feb 18 14:02
* laubersm is here		Feb 18 14:02
Sparks	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix	Feb 18 14:02
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Meeting time change		Feb 18 14:02
Sparks	So only seven people have completed the requisite homework.	Feb 18 14:02
jjmcd	So does that mean the attendance will be <= 7 ?	Feb 18 14:03
Sparks	And right now Thursday at 00:01 UTC is winning.	Feb 18 14:03
* laubersm thinks someone should have marked out the spots already taken in meeting channel		Feb 18 14:03
Sparks	laubersm: We have LOTS of meeting spaces	Feb 18 14:03
laubersm	sparks: thats wed night ET - right?	Feb 18 14:03
ke4qqq	laubersm: ohhh good idea	Feb 18 14:03
Sparks	laubersm: That would be 7PM Wednesday nights	Feb 18 14:03
Sparks	eastern time	Feb 18 14:03
ke4qqq	Sparks: but in -meeting gives a lot of visibility to what we are doing	Feb 18 14:04
* laubersm is still having to think too hard about UTC		Feb 18 14:04
* mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:04
Sparks	ke4qqq: Yeah and while I agree... we still need to think about good timing for us without having to cram every other group into our schedule, IMO.	Feb 18 14:04
jjmcd	laubersm: Becom a ham or move to England	Feb 18 14:04
laubersm	:)	Feb 18 14:05
Sparks	ke4qqq: If we start using meeting-1 then more people will be ther	Feb 18 14:05
ke4qqq	true	Feb 18 14:05
Sparks	I wonder how many people even KNOW there is a meeting-1 (I'm guessing 9)	Feb 18 14:05
* laubersm does but ....		Feb 18 14:06
kirkz	I don't know what meeting-1 is	Feb 18 14:06
Sparks	kirkz: Have we assigned you a... mentor?	Feb 18 14:06
kirkz	not yet	Feb 18 14:07
kirkz	.been working with danielsmw	Feb 18 14:07
Sparks	kirkz: Okay, lets talk after the meeting...	Feb 18 14:07
kirkz	ok	Feb 18 14:07
Sparks	So I guess my question is... who CANNOT meet Thursday at 00:01 UTC?	Feb 18 14:07
kirkz	I	Feb 18 14:08
kirkz	I'll probably be late, my daughter has piano	Feb 18 14:08
Sparks	If we use that spot then we'll fall in between EPEL and LATAM.	Feb 18 14:09
jjmcd	I notice ryanlerch is lacking from the list ... did anyone speak with him?	Feb 18 14:09
* Sparks notes that there are people here today that didn't say they were available now.		Feb 18 14:10
Sparks	jjmcd: I don't know that I've discussed it with him directly but there have been emails to the list and such.	Feb 18 14:10
Sparks	jjmcd: I'll make a point of doing so.	Feb 18 14:11
jjmcd	This is a slightly troublesome time for me but obviously not insurmountable	Feb 18 14:11
* moixs has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Feb 18 14:11
Sparks	Okay, so we don't get bogged down on this I'll beg for another week and then we will make the change next week.	Feb 18 14:11
Sparks	So when you see the message hit the list hit reply to all and let's discuss it.	Feb 18 14:12
laubersm	you might want to point out in the email the top options....	Feb 18 14:12
Sparks	laubersm: +1	Feb 18 14:12
laubersm	more likely to get protests than confirmations	Feb 18 14:12
jjmcd	good point	Feb 18 14:12
Sparks	Anything else?	Feb 18 14:13
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - DocsProject wiki page changes		Feb 18 14:13
Sparks	So I asked ianweller about this last night and apparently there hasn't been any (or much) progress on getting wikibot out of the garage.	Feb 18 14:13
Sparks	quaid had a good point that we should probably just start over on the Docs Project pages which I'm not against. It is just more work but work we can do right the first time.	Feb 18 14:14
jjmcd	What is the issue with the wikibot?	Feb 18 14:15
Sparks	Not sure if it is a problem with only one person having the keys or if it is broken.	Feb 18 14:15
laubersm	I think it a little of both but ian thinks he can fix the broken if he can get the code	Feb 18 14:16
laubersm	at least that is what I last understood	Feb 18 14:16
* stickster was an early proponent of starting over, also, with the idea being to create process docs that are as slim and readable as possible		Feb 18 14:16
Sparks	I'm personally leaning towards the "reinvent the wheel" at this point because a lot of the pages we have aren't useful and there needs to be a design change.	Feb 18 14:16
* itbegins (n=Simon@nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0.fitz.cam.ac.uk) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:16
Sparks	Yeah, what stickster said	Feb 18 14:16
laubersm	+1	Feb 18 14:17
itbegins	Evening all, sorry I'm late	Feb 18 14:17
ke4qqq	starting over makes a lot of sense - the people who know what is junk and what isn't in existing docs prolly don't have time to filter it.	Feb 18 14:17
laubersm	Also, more groups are begining to rename and add categories and we need to be an example not left behind	Feb 18 14:17
jjmcd	Someone on the mailing list mentioned doing a process diagram. Perhaps a current and desired diagram would be a good starting point	Feb 18 14:17
* jjmcd takes off his MBB hat		Feb 18 14:18
laubersm	what is the status of the psv files that quaid started?	Feb 18 14:18
laubersm	can they be used as a guideline of what to archive at least?	Feb 18 14:19
Sparks	laubersm: I think it still exists.	Feb 18 14:19
quaid	yes, they can	Feb 18 14:19
Sparks	I think that file needs to be wikized so we can see it.	Feb 18 14:19
ke4qqq	laubersm: you and I have worked on it - I haven't seen any other commits hit the commit list	Feb 18 14:19
ke4qqq	Sparks: what's wrong with git clone?	Feb 18 14:19
laubersm	they are all here	Feb 18 14:19
laubersm	http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=wikirename.git;a=tree	Feb 18 14:19
* jsmith (n=nnnjsmit@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:20
quaid	-1 on wikifying, it's an easy file to work with	Feb 18 14:20
Sparks	ke4qqq: too much overhead for a group to look at and make changes	Feb 18 14:20
laubersm	I don't know that there are that many changes to make in the docs or docsproject ones...	Feb 18 14:20
Sparks	Good grief, you guys are going to make me work today	Feb 18 14:20
ke4qqq	if it's too much overhead for this group I'd be worried - we're talking hundreds of lines of text each - unwieldy at best.	Feb 18 14:21
ke4qqq	:)	Feb 18 14:21
laubersm	and quiad added category suggestions too	Feb 18 14:21
ke4qqq	sorry - was it supposed to be bonbon day today?	Feb 18 14:21
stickster	mmm bonbons	Feb 18 14:22
Sparks	Good grief... I'm ready to shred what we have in the wiki and start over from dirt after looking at that list	Feb 18 14:22
* danielsmw_ipod (n=danielsm@user-24-214-179-165.knology.net) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:22
* danielsmw_ipod is now known as danielsmw		Feb 18 14:22
laubersm	looks like docsproject is all the ugly stuff - docs is beats and drafts and hasn't had any work done	Feb 18 14:22
ke4qqq	Sparks: another reason not to wikify, it'll further ruin search.	Feb 18 14:23
* alexxed has quit ("Leaving.")		Feb 18 14:24
Sparks	Okay so what do we want to do? I guess we can tell wikibot to throw stuff in the archive: but we still are going to have to go through each page and clean it up	Feb 18 14:24
Sparks	Okay, not everyone at once.	Feb 18 14:25
Sparks	Who's available this weekend to work on wiki stuff?	Feb 18 14:26
danielsmw	I am!	Feb 18 14:26
* jsmith can't, unfortunately		Feb 18 14:26
laubersm	If we archive, rename the rest and add the categories it will be easier to go through what is left and clean up	Feb 18 14:26
kirkz	I can help if I'd be useful	Feb 18 14:26
laubersm	I vote for using the psv as a guide and manually getting it done this weekend	Feb 18 14:26
laubersm	waiting on wikibot is driving me nuts	Feb 18 14:27
quaid	yes, adding categories is key	Feb 18 14:27
Sparks	Okay, let's get a party together starting Friday night and knock this stuff out.	Feb 18 14:27
jjmcd	Do we have some confidence that the first column is comprehensive?	Feb 18 14:27
Sparks	and when was that column generated?	Feb 18 14:27
quaid	make sure all understand the naming guidelines :)	Feb 18 14:27
ke4qqq	laubersm: even better: get the .psvs ready and then dole out sections of it - spread the love - that's accesibly to everyone	Feb 18 14:27
quaid	e.g. "Titles like this", don't make all initial caps, etc.	Feb 18 14:28
laubersm	ke4qqq : are you volunteering?	Feb 18 14:28
Sparks	who wants to volunteer to head up this project or do we want to nominate ianweller?	Feb 18 14:28
* ke4qqq nominates ianweller		Feb 18 14:28
ke4qqq	laubersm: I'll be happy to help	Feb 18 14:28
* laubersm thinks quaid should finish what he started		Feb 18 14:28
quaid	oh, what's that?	Feb 18 14:29
* laubersm should have time to help this week		Feb 18 14:29
jjmcd	Can't the renaming be done in SQL?	Feb 18 14:29
laubersm	quaid: aren't you the one that put most of the suggestions into the psv file?	Feb 18 14:29
laubersm	docsproject.psv history blaims you	Feb 18 14:30
laubersm	blame	Feb 18 14:30
Sparks	okay	Feb 18 14:31
Sparks	I'll get with ianweller tonight and let's get this moving on Friday	Feb 18 14:31
* jsmith is now known as jsmith-away		Feb 18 14:31
Sparks	Anything else?	Feb 18 14:31
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - CMS Update		Feb 18 14:32
Sparks	ke4qqq: Where are we now?	Feb 18 14:32
* SmootherFrOgZ (n=laxathom@69.6.70-86.rev.gaoland.net) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq	well - honestly not much additional progress since last week	Feb 18 14:32
* ke4qqq has been busy with $dayjob		Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq	but	Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq	jds2001, herlo and spot will be around to help get this pushed in this weekend.	Feb 18 14:33
ke4qqq	and at least two of the above know that I plan on getting the modules and core completely packaged this weekend	Feb 18 14:33
Sparks	excellent	Feb 18 14:33
* Sparks understands about $DAYJOB		Feb 18 14:33
jjmcd	work is the curse of the drinking class	Feb 18 14:34
Sparks	Does anyone have any questions about the CMS?	Feb 18 14:34
quaid	laubersm: yeah, I take the blame for docsproject.psv	Feb 18 14:35
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes		Feb 18 14:35
Sparks	jjmcd: How's it going?	Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd	some headway. Got a beat writer for haskell, ryan and i discussed some	Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd	changes to the organization which Ryan incorporated into the DocBook	Feb 18 14:36
* quaid off the phone, sry		Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd	I am about 60% through writing a recruiting post	Feb 18 14:37
Sparks	Okay. Do you need anything from me? Are the release notes on schedule?	Feb 18 14:37
jjmcd	In fact, will shortly be looking for a proofreader or two	Feb 18 14:37
jjmcd	At this point I see no issue	Feb 18 14:37
Sparks	Okay	Feb 18 14:37
Sparks	Anyone have any questions?	Feb 18 14:38
* mcepl (n=mcepl@49-117-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz) has joined #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:38
quaid	um	Feb 18 14:38
quaid	there was the one thing on list about process	Feb 18 14:38
* Sparks hasn't had an opportunity to catch up on the list discussions		Feb 18 14:40
quaid	ok	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	the deal is, the process is unclear about how people are supposed to note things once Alpha is out	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	update the Alpha?	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	does that automagically fill the Beta?	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	write in to beats?	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	add it to common bugs?	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	etc.	Feb 18 14:40
quaid	so it seemed like a good time to fix those process notes and send the QA communities the word on what to do.	Feb 18 14:41
quaid	writing a new process page is an option, based on the above renaming plans	Feb 18 14:41
quaid	is that something ryanlerch and jjmcd can collaborate on soonish?	Feb 18 14:41
quaid	eof	Feb 18 14:41
* mcepl (n=mcepl@49-117-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz) has left #fedora-meeting		Feb 18 14:42
jjmcd	Making notes in the beats talk would give the writers a heads up and wouldn't make the developers feel like they have to wordcreft	Feb 18 14:42
Sparks	Yeah, I think we should be looking at documenting the current process and then look at any way to improve that process.	Feb 18 14:42
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jjmcd	wordcraft	Feb 18 14:42
quaid	I liked the other spelling, tho'	Feb 18 14:43
* jjmcd will try to sync with RL		Feb 18 14:43
quaid	I know there are holes in y'all's understanding of the way things have been done, but a good first exercise	Feb 18 14:44
quaid	might be to just try to do it all from what you know, then let the old fogies make suggestions	Feb 18 14:44
jjmcd	Yeah, might not be a bad plan ... will need lots of pictures tho ... /me thinks better in pictures <g>	Feb 18 14:45
* Sparks wonders if we have a wiki page that identifies old fogies		Feb 18 14:45
jjmcd	Plus the whole Six Sigma thing about making things visual/transparent	Feb 18 14:45
jjmcd	Prolly not too hard to recognize the gray haired types	Feb 18 14:46
laubersm	Sparks: this one does: DocsProject/SteeringCommittee	Feb 18 14:46
quaid	laubersm: nice!	Feb 18 14:47
ke4qqq	heh	Feb 18 14:47
quaid	Sparks: OT, but +1 to s/FDSCo/Docs Team/g	Feb 18 14:47
Sparks	quaid: Yeah, that's a definite need	Feb 18 14:47
Sparks	Okay.	Feb 18 14:47
Sparks	I wanted to talk with the release notes folks last weekend and unfortunately that didn't happen. Let's make that happen this week so we can exchange ideas in a less async environment.	Feb 18 14:48
Sparks	Anything else on this?	Feb 18 14:48
* quaid done		Feb 18 14:49
Sparks	danielsmw: Did you want to talk about your guide?	Feb 18 14:49
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on User Guide		Feb 18 14:49
danielsmw	yeah	Feb 18 14:49
danielsmw	just a bit	Feb 18 14:49
Sparks	go for it	Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw	I think I said most of what I wanted to say in that email, but in case anyone didn't see it:	Feb 18 14:50
Sparks	you'll wrap us up for the day	Feb 18 14:50
* quaid +1 overall for danielsmw's on-list proposal of priorities		Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw	1) Priorities for FAD	Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw	I think that there isn't a huge stress on content priority, but I suggest that we work on pages like accessing the internet and installing software before the others	Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw	since these are more fundamental	Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw	quaid: thanks	Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw	2) Organizing for maintainability	Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw	I'd like to examine what tasks can be generalized without losing ease of understanding for a new user	Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw	and then generalize these tasks, making it more maintainable and giving us time to polish other things/add content	Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw	like... (this wasn't on the list)	Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw	3) Advanced Sections	Feb 18 14:52
quaid	danielsmw: only thing I wanted to discuss was how we wanted to handle F9 and F10 content on the wiki concurrently	Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw	I think that while the user guide can be a newbie-friendly thing for the docs team, it doesn't need to leave out slightly more advanced users	Feb 18 14:52
quaid	but 2) reminds me we want to discuss a common 'sudo' doc again v. su -c everywhere	Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw	There are plenty of things that can be written for the more advanced user - setting up irssi, for example -	Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw	That we can put in there. We just need to denote that it's for advanced users	Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw	quaid: go ahead, if you want to discuss that	Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw	I'm done, I think	Feb 18 14:54
laubersm	where should I be updating with F10 info?	Feb 18 14:54
* laubersm may have missed that		Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw	Oh, right	Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw	I suppose	Feb 18 14:54
laubersm	or putting new F10 pages?	Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw	That's a worthy thing to address	Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw	For the little F10 editing that's been done, we've done it in our userspace	Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw	but we need a better place very soon	Feb 18 14:54
quaid	I'd rather settle that now, fwiw :)	Feb 18 14:55
laubersm	wiki or XML (git)?	Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw	Agreed	Feb 18 14:55
quaid	we could do what we did for F8 with the F9 content	Feb 18 14:55
quaid	but then we want to move it to Archive: when it's converted or we risk confusing ppl	Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw	Well, what if we just set aside the mediawiki source	Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw	for conversion to xml	Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw	at a later date?	Feb 18 14:55
quaid	ah, then finish F9 via XML?	Feb 18 14:55
quaid	we could do the raw conversion in a few minutes	Feb 18 14:55
quaid	and check it in to git for fixing later.	Feb 18 14:56
danielsmw	Right. I mean, the only stuff left is KDE	Feb 18 14:56
quaid	call it branched-to-XML at that point.	Feb 18 14:56
danielsmw	(i still need to go to fedora-kde)	Feb 18 14:56
quaid	hmm, yeah, and that could be written anywhere and exported later, it's true	Feb 18 14:56
* quaid ponders ... that would save needless renaming, etc.		Feb 18 14:56
* danielsmw concurs		Feb 18 14:56
quaid	danielsmw: m'man, I like that!	Feb 18 14:56
Sparks	THREE MINUTE WARNING	Feb 18 14:57
quaid	then if I get more time I can also help with the XML conversion as it sits in git	Feb 18 14:57
* jjmcd notes that Sparks checked WWV		Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw	quaid: that'd be great, because I need to learn that	Feb 18 14:57
quaid	that will move F9 UG significantly, and give us room to move on F10	Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw	yup yup.	Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw	Sounds like a plan then.	Feb 18 14:57
quaid	danielsmw: cool, nothing like watching and doing in real time to learn; you'll see from the git commits what I change, etc.	Feb 18 14:57
quaid	right o	Feb 18 14:57
Sparks	jjmcd: Every new raday	Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw	any comments on the aforementioned advanced sections before I let sparks take away the meeting?	Feb 18 14:58
danielsmw	It's something I thought of when kirkz started doing the clawsmail stuff	Feb 18 14:58
laubersm	I have no problems with some more advanced content - but lets get the current topics moving first?	Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw	oh, agreed.,	Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw	that would all be secondary.	Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw	okay, well, that's all from me.	Feb 18 14:59
laubersm	great - add them to a list and I'll help a little bit	Feb 18 14:59
Sparks	Anything else???	Feb 18 14:59
quaid	</>	Feb 18 14:59
* danielsmw thinks Sparks is pretty violent with his capitalization and punctuation		Feb 18 14:59
Sparks	5	Feb 18 14:59
Sparks	4	Feb 18 14:59
Sparks	3	Feb 18 14:59
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Sparks	Thanks everyone for coming!	Feb 18 15:00
Sparks	</meeting>	Feb 18 15:00