Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090625

Sparks	#startmeeting	00:00
Sparks	#meetingtopic Docs Meeting 25 Jun 2009	00:00
Sparks	#topic Agenda: Docs_Project_meetings	00:00
Sparks	Roll Call	00:00
* Sparks is here		00:00
* ke4qqq is here		00:00
uclugLee	is here (still learning chat code)	00:01
ke4qqq	welcome Lee!	00:01
Sparks	Welcome all... Hopefully we'll have a good attendance tonight.	00:01
* ianweller is kinda maybe sorta here but not really		00:02
* rudi is here		00:02
ke4qqq	isn't someone paying you to attend ianweller ??? :)	00:02
* Sparks ties ianweller to a chair		00:02
ianweller	ke4qqq: my internet is being fuxxored	00:02
ianweller	i want to burn my ISP	00:02
ianweller	but	00:02
ianweller	yeah	00:02
ke4qqq	ahhhh ok	00:02
ianweller	so no warning on whether i'm here or not :P	00:02
ke4qqq	is that excuse the new 'my dog ate my homework' ?	00:02
* Sparks hopes that quaid will be here so he can talk about the licensing		00:03
ianweller	ke4qqq: ok you ping salina0.ianweller.org and see when it stops responding. :P	00:03
Sparks	ianweller: Can we all do that?	00:03
Sparks	home grown DDOS	00:03
Sparks	:)	00:03
ianweller	bluh	00:03
uclugLee	Woohoo!!! My name is registered now...not really sure what that means, but....	00:03
* Sparks gives everyone one more minute		00:05
ianweller	hmm it seems like my internet is fairly stable now	00:05
ianweller	whee	00:05
ke4qqq	ianweller: have you done an unofficial review on ucluglee's package?	00:05
ianweller	no	00:05
ianweller	i should probably do that.	00:05
* Sparks makes a note to doc ianweller's pay for this week		00:06
ke4qqq	do I nned to add it to the todo?	00:06
uclugLee	Wait.......that didn't sound right.	00:06
ianweller	ke4qqq: that would be extremely helpful	00:06
Sparks	DO IT!	00:06
Sparks	Okay... if everyone will take their seats... we'll get started	00:06
Sparks	quaid: You here?	00:06
* radsy is here		00:06
* Sparks skips the CC licensing topic		00:07
Sparks	is anyone here about the shared open-source style guide?	00:07
ianweller	can someone recap that for me?	00:07
ianweller	i'm kinda lost about it	00:07
Sparks	ianweller: as soon as someone fills me in... sure	00:07
ianweller	hah	00:08
ianweller	mmmmk	00:08
ke4qqq	I like the idea - but man someone needs to stand up and lead it - and come up with lots of volunteers	00:08
Sparks	ke4qqq: Would you like to speak about it?	00:08
ke4qqq	not really	00:08
pcutler	Sparks: which one? (I'm here representing GNOME, at a docs conference 2 weeks ago we started working on a shared open source style guide)	00:08
Sparks	#topic Shared open-source style guide	00:08
radsy	we have our own internal style guide here	00:08
Sparks	Okay... let's jump into it, then.	00:08
ke4qqq	radsy: does it reference cms or ap?	00:09
radsy	ap?	00:09
Sparks	pcutler: What can you tell us about the style guide project.	00:09
Sparks	?	00:09
rudi	ke4qqq - neither	00:09
pcutler	at a docs conference 2 weeks ago, we had various free software projects, including GNOME, XFCE, Ubuntu, Drupal and BSD together.	00:09
pcutler	during our hackfest on Sunday, one group started working on the style guide, which is a wip found here: http://writingopensource.com/node/14	00:10
pcutler	this is in it's infancy, so it's still really rough, and nowhere near complete	00:10
ke4qqq	radsy - Associates Press - and Chicago Manual of Style	00:10
* Sparks wonders why I wasn't invited...  :(		00:10
pcutler	i didn't spend a lot of time on it as I was doing GNOME hackfest stuff	00:10
Sparks	pcutler: So what do you want/need from us?	00:11
ke4qqq	radsy: any chance CES's is OPL-licensed?	00:11
pcutler	Sparks: don't know yet, right now our goal is to get GNOME better integrated downstream and open communication to stuff like this	00:11
shaunm	pcutler: discussing the open source style guide?	00:11
pcutler	shaunm: yes	00:11
pcutler	as far as they style guide, I was there, but wasn't active on that project	00:12
Sparks	shaunm: If you have something to add please do.	00:12
radsy	ke4qqq, i'm not sure how it's licensed, but i can probably find out for you	00:12
radsy	leave it with me	00:12
pcutler	one topic discussed was how to create our own version of the Chicago Manual of Style long term	00:12
ke4qqq	that'd be awesome	00:12
rudi	ke4qqq -- not at the moment, in fact, it's "Confidential"	00:12
radsy	or that ^	00:12
pcutler	"our" as in all open source projects	00:13
Sparks	I guess I'm just confused about what is needed from Fedora. I'm sure we'd be happy to participate and provide all our documentation as needed.	00:13
shaunm	I saw some confusion in some places, so I'd just like to point out that the idea is not to get rid of project-specific style guides	00:13
ke4qqq	they want us to participate in creation - plus fedora has an existing style guide - though it references chicago so it's incomplete in their scope.	00:14
* quaid slides in the back of the room		00:14
shaunm	right, so any sufficiently large documentation project has its own style guide. same happens in the commercial sector	00:14
shaunm	but project style guides deal with very specific things for that project, and happily leave the general stuff to a general style guide, like CMS or AP	00:15
Sparks	okay. It would probably be a good time to get some folks working on updating our backend documents (like the style-guide and development documentation)	00:15
shaunm	the idea is to make a free style guide that can be that general base for all of us	00:15
quaid	certainly in the area of "is it x86, X86, etc."	00:16
quaid	we do our readers a service in normalizing	00:16
Sparks	Okay. Is there anyone that would like to raise their hand and volunteer to work as a liaison and help wrangle this from our end?	00:16
ke4qqq	I don't mind acting as a liaison there	00:17
shaunm	and note that I don't know how we're going about this. I'm not the one leading the effort	00:17
ke4qqq	but I'd really like to see if we could get CES to release theirs under a free license.	00:17
Sparks	ke4qqq: Thanks. I'll put you on it, then. I'd also like to be involved. Just keep me in the loop of what's happening, please.	00:17
ke4qqq	np	00:17
rudi	ke4qqq -- I'll be happy to follow that up. I don't imagine that it would be a big deal.	00:18
shaunm	ke4qqq: sorry, I'm not familiar with CES. link?	00:18
quaid	ke4qqq: +1 to an RHT addition	00:18
rudi	shaunm, actually, ECS -- Red Hat Engineering Content Services	00:18
ke4qqq	shaunm: Content Engineering Services - it's the docs team at RH	00:18
shaunm	ah, thanks	00:18
ke4qqq	wow - sorry for transposing the name	00:19
rudi	ke4qqq - np. It's not in front of your face every day, like it is for some of us ;)	00:19
Sparks	Okay, so ke4qqq is going to run with that ball. Does anyone else have anything on this topic?	00:20
Sparks	shaunm: pcutler: Thanks for helping us understand what's happening here.	00:21
* Sparks moves back to the first topic since he saw quaid slip into the back of the room.		00:21
scramer	Im curious what style guides we have already. the link posted a minute ago. doesn't contain much	00:21
Sparks	scramer: I think that is something we are going to have to figure out.	00:22
Sparks	#topic Status on CC license discussion	00:23
Sparks	quaid: Do you have an update on the license discussion?	00:23
quaid	short is, I've been on vacation since the last meeting, basically	00:23
quaid	so I haven't moved the needl	00:23
quaid	but bonus, I just started up gnote from scratch	00:24
quaid	and added this as the first to-do item	00:24
quaid	I'll bounce traffic back to the list asap.	00:24
quaid	<eof>	00:24
Sparks	:)	00:24
Sparks	cool... Does anyone have any questions?	00:24
quaid	and dependencies I need to know about?	00:24
Sparks	quaid: Thanks for the update...	00:26
Sparks	moving on	00:26
quaid	esp. dependencies :)	00:26
quaid	so moved	00:27
Sparks	:)	00:27
Sparks	#topic Bugzilla Component Changes - User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table	00:27
Sparks	So no one has really commented on this. So if no one has anything to say about it tonight I'm going to start the process of converting or changing or leaving alone.	00:28
* quaid takes a quick final peek		00:28
ianweller	Sparks: did you talk to translators about abandoning the translation docs?	00:28
ianweller	i don't want other subprojects getting angry	00:29
Sparks	ianweller: yes. I've gotten multiple confirmation on blowing those files away	00:29
Sparks	errr... abandoning them	00:29
* Sparks never throws anything away		00:29
quaid	it's in Trac now iirc	00:29
quaid	um, two questions	00:29
quaid	docs-common has tools in it that are potentially useful, may never be packaged, and are in trac now	00:29
quaid	do we not need a bug component because it's not a packaged thing?	00:30
ke4qqq	and many of them still needed for things like RN	00:30
* quaid is going to go over his alotted two questions, but tries ...		00:30
ke4qqq	and older versions of documents such as the IG for F10	00:30
quaid	and example-tutorial, is that supplated by create_book?	00:31
quaid	i.e., if we want a Fedora-specific example, we should put it in publican-fedora, right?	00:31
* quaid notes there may have been some gold in xml-normalize, but it's probably supplanted by pulican, too		00:31
* quaid has latency, argh		00:32
quaid	<eoq>	00:32
Sparks	quaid: We can put anything in bz that needs to be there. I plan on being very flexible with "our" product in bz.	00:32
quaid	so, if we are doing team wide planning/task management with bz, we probably need to keep docs-common under it's new name	00:32
Sparks	quaid: And I think many things are going to get "lost" because we will be using publican.	00:33
Sparks	quaid: +1 to using BZ for... everything	00:33
quaid	bzborg	00:33
Sparks	ke4qqq: I'm not sure if I understand your statement	00:34
quaid	docs-common tools are still needed	00:34
quaid	for RN and F10 guides, i.e. "PP" (pre-publican)	00:34
ke4qqq	perhaps I misunderstand then	00:34
ke4qqq	and even the 'other dogs' that are included with RN post-publican	00:35
ke4qqq	s/dogs/docs/	00:35
quaid	*woof*	00:35
Sparks	IMO, we need BZ components for all active items not in the wiki... does that make sense?	00:36
Sparks	If we decide to sunset a project or move it to the wiki we should get rid of the component in BZ to prevent confusion.	00:37
ke4qqq	eg - we can't EOL docs-common til all of the docs that need docs-common	00:37
Sparks	yes... that makes sense	00:37
ke4qqq	are EOLed - which means at least another 12 months	00:37
quaid	but we can rename it	00:37
ke4qqq	yep	00:37
Sparks	okay. 48 more hours and then I'm taking an ax to things... :)	00:38
Sparks	make notes/updates on the page and let's take further discussion to the list.	00:39
Sparks	is that okay?	00:39
ke4qqq	worksforme	00:39
quaid	k	00:39
Sparks	This topic really started as a BZ clean up but turned out to be a clean up of Docs!	00:40
Sparks	Anyone have anything else before we move on?	00:40
Sparks	#topic CMS Update <-- ke4qqq	00:40
Sparks	ke4qqq: Zikula... talk to us!	00:41
ke4qqq	so lots of modules packaged	00:41
ke4qqq	a few hiccups (licensing)	00:42
ke4qqq	poelcat has volunteered to take the pm role	00:42
ke4qqq	but we haven't yet had an initial meeting	00:42
quaid	?	00:42
quaid	I saw that traffic from John	00:42
quaid	and is that just for the docs.fp.o site?	00:42
ke4qqq	upstream has been very responsive to our concerns	00:42
quaid	Zikula++	00:42
Sparks	quaid: I think this is for getting the initial instance of Zikula up... which will be docs.fp.o.	00:43
ke4qqq	quaid: no this is for other fp.o uses as well I suppose	00:43
quaid	both! neither!	00:43
ke4qqq	so many groups have an interest	00:43
Sparks	yes	00:43
Sparks	Well...	00:43
ke4qqq	and so many parties are needed	00:43
Sparks	infra and art are needed initially to make sure everything is... perfect (like it would be any other way)	00:44
quaid	it would help if we made it clear that this is a step in a process that still includes hope.	00:44
Sparks	after that it should be an easy process to get other instances up and functioning	00:44
quaid	for the other teams involved; unless Infra/Websites wants to move in parallel, too	00:44
ke4qqq	and I am doing a poor job of getting it all done quite honestly, though Sparks has been packaging and stuff like a madman	00:44
Sparks	ke4qqq: give me keys and I'll drive us to California	00:45
ke4qqq	:)	00:45
quaid	this is a nice point for poelcat to step in; it's like a Fedora-ratchet, moving things along from doer to doer :)	00:45
Sparks	yes	00:46
Sparks	I think we'll be meeting the beginning of next week (I speculate)	00:46
Sparks	Anyone have anything else?	00:47
Sparks	#topic DocsProject wiki pages changes	00:47
Sparks	ianweller: you still around?	00:48
Sparks	ianweller: What's the status of getting wikibot out of the garage?	00:48
* ke4qqq needs to duck out of the meeting - sorry can't stay longer.		00:48
shaunm	are you through your agenda items?	00:48
Sparks	ke4qqq: thanks for coming	00:48
Sparks	shaunm: about half way through the items... but the last half goes faster	00:48
* Sparks thinks ianweller is MIA.		00:49
shaunm	I have something I'd like to discuss with the fedora docs team, but I don't want to interrupt your agenda	00:49
Sparks	shaunm: Can you stick around for another ten min?	00:49
shaunm	sure, no problem	00:49
Sparks	shaunm: cool	00:50
Sparks	#topic Status on Installation Guide	00:50
Sparks	rudi: Any updates on the IG?	00:50
rudi	Not much -- I'm working my way through the bug list and on some new material that engineers want incorporated	00:50
rudi	Still hope to have a revised edition ready in the next week or so	00:51
rudi	(but I think I said that last week)	00:51
Sparks	:)	00:52
Sparks	rudi: Cool. If you need anything just let me know.	00:52
rudi	Ta.	00:52
Sparks	Anyone have anything for the IG?	00:52
Sparks	#topic Status on Security Guide	00:53
Sparks	Well... I submitted a new package for review. I think he likes it.	00:53
Sparks	Have a couple of open tickets on transitioning some information from the wiki over to the guide.	00:54
Sparks	And I'd like to make mention of radsy's SELinux guides in the document, somewhere.	00:54
Sparks	radsy: do you have anything to add?	00:54
radsy	on the security guide?	00:54
radsy	no	00:54
Sparks	Anyone have anything?	00:54
radsy	it's not in my field of view right now	00:55
Sparks	#topic Status on SELinux Guides	00:55
Sparks	radsy: I'm guessing these are, though	00:55
radsy	i'm trying to beat publican into submission with the user-guide translations, and i'm working on mysql/squid for the services-guide.	00:56
* Sparks offers his baseball bat		00:56
Sparks	radsy: If I can help with the translations (or anything) please let me knwo.	00:57
Sparks	I know that jjmcd has good experience with the translations, too (more than me) so he might be a good resource	00:57
Sparks	as soon as he returns from Germany	00:57
Sparks	Anyone have anything?	00:58
Sparks	#topic Status on User Guide <-- danielsmw & rudi	00:58
Sparks	rudi: Any changes to the UG?	00:58
rudi	Nothing on the radar for this one.	00:58
Sparks	Anyone have anything?	00:58
quaid	hmm	00:59
quaid	is that one being lead?	00:59
Sparks	quaid: which one? The UG? danielsmw and rudi are assigned to it	00:59
quaid	ok	00:59
* Sparks notes he hasn't seen danielsmw around lately		00:59
quaid	sorry, was out of touch and missed that folks actually volunteered, bless 'em	01:00
quaid	I thought danielsmw took an LOA?	01:00
Sparks	did he?	01:00
quaid	or am I discombobulating him with jmtaylor?	01:00
* Sparks will consult his notes after the meeting		01:00
quaid	sorry Matthew if I am	01:00
Sparks	Okay, anythign else on the UG?	01:00
Sparks	#topic New Guides	01:00
Sparks	Anyone working on or wanting to work on a new guide?	01:01
rudi	I plan to work on an Installation Quick Start Guide for F11	01:01
rudi	F12 rather	01:01
Sparks	cool	01:01
quaid	cool	01:01
Sparks	step one: put in DVD	01:01
Sparks	step two: press enter	01:01
Sparks	step three: walk away	01:02
Sparks	step four: return and enjoy Fedora goodness	01:02
Sparks	:)	01:02
rudi	Yeah; something very much like that :)	01:02
Sparks	there may be a few steps missing in there but...  :)	01:02
Sparks	rudi: Do you need anyone to help you with this guide?	01:03
rudi	Sparks -- I'll know more once I have the chance to do some planning with it	01:03
rudi	I hope that I'll be able to reuse/condense content from some existing docs	01:03
Sparks	rudi: Okay. Just let me know.	01:03
Sparks	Anyone else?	01:03
Sparks	#topic All other busines	01:04
Sparks	Okay... Who has something they'd like to talk about?	01:04
* shaunm raises his hand		01:04
Sparks	yes shaunm!  :)	01:05
shaunm	yay!	01:05
shaunm	so there is a small group of people who are discussing coming together for a desktop help summit	01:05
shaunm	we have interested parties from gnome, kde, xfce, and ubuntu	01:05
shaunm	it's not a conference. it's a gathering of movers and shakers to bang out some common ground	01:06
Sparks	docs ground?	01:06
shaunm	I would very much like it if somebody from the fedora team could make it	01:06
shaunm	strictly docs, yes	01:06
Sparks	shaunm: I'm sure we can fill a slot.	01:06
shaunm	largely focused on desktop help. but if people find something interested to talk about for other types of documentation, I'm not going to shut them up	01:07
shaunm	*interesting	01:07
rudi	shaunm -- When and where?	01:07
quaid	I will caveat that being a starfish-type organization, it's hard to get one person who can speak for direction in terms of common ground ... depending.	01:07
Sparks	quaid: yes... but one person can at least be the liaison.	01:08
quaid	my experience is we all get together in person and have great ideas, but moving those through the projects is different.	01:08
shaunm	quaid: perfectly understood. but somebody who's involved with the fedora team can bring perspective that the rest of us don't have	01:08
shaunm	nod	01:08
quaid	I'm curious what thought there is toward virtual and widely inclusive v. physical and therefore exclusive?	01:08
shaunm	so I've offered to organize and host the event, and if I organize it, it will be in Champaign, IL, US	01:09
shaunm	and people seem to be perfectly happy to let me do that	01:09
shaunm	we're tentatively talking about august 21-23	01:09
shaunm	(I realize it's rather short notice)	01:09
Sparks	shaunm: Can you send me a message to sparks@fedoraproject.org with the details, please?	01:10
shaunm	yessir	01:10
Sparks	I'll forward the information to the list so we can figure it out on our end.	01:11
shaunm	great	01:11
Sparks	Anyone have anything else?	01:12
Sparks	5	01:13
Sparks	4	01:13
scramer	thank you	01:13
Sparks	3	01:13
Sparks	scramer: no problem	01:13
Sparks	2	01:13
Sparks	1	01:13
Sparks	Thanks everyone for coming!	01:13
Sparks	#endmeeting	01:14