Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090917

Sparks	#startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings	00:02
zodbot	Meeting started Thu Sep 17 00:02:29 2009 UTC. The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	00:02
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	00:02
Sparks	#topic Roll Call	00:02
* Sparks		00:02
* stickster		00:02
* jjmcd is here		00:02
* joat .		00:03
* rudi is here		00:03
stickster	Sparks: Should the schedule tasks be on the agenda too?	00:03
* danielsmw		00:04
stickster	http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html	00:04
Sparks	stickster: Probably	00:04
Sparks	We'll shoe horn it in	00:04
stickster	I'd recommend that be there on a regular basis, just to avoid any sudden screechy left-hand turns	00:04
Sparks	Yeah	00:04
stickster	Even if the kids in the back think it's fun	00:04
jjmcd	Trubble is, we're already in that state	00:05
Sparks	Okay, let's get going!	00:05
* Tsagadai is here but late :)		00:05
Sparks	#topic Last week's action items	00:05
Sparks	quaid to follow up with Mizmo on the Zikula theme	00:05
Sparks	quaid: You here tonight?	00:05
stickster	Sparks: I can fill in here	00:06
Sparks	stickster: go!	00:06
stickster	mizmo worked for many hours the other night on Zikula theme	00:06
stickster	But there is some very significant broken stuff in Zikula itself that made the work slow, frustrating, and ultimately unfinished	00:06
stickster	mizmo has to punt for now because the web design is higher priority and there's too much Zikula architecture stuff to figure out for her to progress as fast as she's used to doing with other frameworks	00:07
stickster	eof	00:07
* jjmcd thinks that after we come up for air we need to work on zik dox		00:08
Sparks	stickster: So do we need to find someone else to work on the skins?	00:08
stickster	Sparks: mchua is going to do that	00:08
Sparks	Okay... Good to know.	00:09
Sparks	jjmcd: zik dox?	00:09
* stickster is a little disappointed at Zikula progress -- not because people didn't put forth superhuman effort, because they *did*		00:09
jjmcd	My exploration of zikula was hampered by horrible dox	00:09
jjmcd	lots of them, all useless	00:09
stickster	More because there's so many broken pieces when you dig inside.	00:09
Sparks	jjmcd: Yeah	00:09
Sparks	stickster: I agree	00:09
Sparks	There were a lot of people that put a lot of work into it and found it "not as advertised"	00:10
stickster	It makes me want to get further information on (1) how we decided on it, and (2) re-evaluate that process so that we can learn from the experience	00:10
stickster	But moreover	00:10
stickster	I think having itbegins around has been helpful	00:10
* mchua here		00:10
stickster	And I want to make sure that what we're learning is being fed back to the Zikula community for action	00:10
* mchua reads backlog		00:10
stickster	mchua: No biggie, just letting Sparks know that you are going to be on the lookout for more theming help for Zikula	00:10
jjmcd	stickster, that's why I say, once we get capacity free, we ought to help them out, too	00:11
stickster	jjmcd: A significant portion of the problem may be issues we can't solve, though -- like architectural issues, according to mizmo	00:11
jjmcd	since they helped us	00:11
Sparks	stickster: Yeah, we've received a lot of support... but we had to re-engineer so much...	00:11
stickster	I have no idea myself, not sure I'd know from looking at it anyway :-)	00:11
mchua	itbegins and mizmo have cleared their plates completely of FI items, so itbegins can help more people do FI stuff instead of doing tons of it himself	00:11
jjmcd	Oh yeah, we need to give them guidance, but without simon, would you have gotten off the ground?	00:11
stickster	Not sure.	00:12
stickster	Anyway, don't let me derail your agenda Sparks, I think we answered the status bit	00:12
mchua	All the remaining FI work is listed in https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&component=Fedora+Insight&order=priority in a manner that is pick-uppable by passers-by. We're trying to doc everything as we go along so future zikula deployments will be smoother.	00:12
mchua	but yeah, there have been a lot of hacks as we approach the endgame.	00:13
stickster	mchua: Not to mention the hacking we did in the startgame too :-)	00:13
mchua	...that too, yeah.	00:13
Sparks	Okay... we'll get more into Zikula in a bit..	00:13
Sparks	moving on	00:13
Sparks	quaid to follow up with Richard about the use of the CC logo on the wiki.	00:13
Sparks	Anyone know about the outcome of this? I feel we have revisited this more times than not.	00:14
rudi	Haven't heard anything new about it; don't know if quaid has broached the subject with Richard	00:14
rudi	So, AFAIK, Richard's previous advice stands	00:14
Sparks	#action quaid to follow up with Richard about the use of the CC logo on the wiki.	00:15
Sparks	danielsmw to package an editor for Scribite	00:15
Sparks	This didn't happen. Has anyone stepped up to do this?	00:15
danielsmw	Sparks: Here's my update.	00:16
danielsmw	I looked at using TinyMCE and worked at that spec file for a bit	00:16
danielsmw	I later consulted with abadger1999 and figured out that TinyMCE would be basically impossible to package without 4 or 5 other packages that are questionably packagable	00:16
Sparks	oh, danielsmw IS here! Welcome!	00:17
danielsmw	Yes, I'm here. :)	00:17
* stickster shouts Howdy to danielsmw		00:17
Sparks	danielsmw: So scratch TinyMCE	00:17
danielsmw	Anyway, we've picked up Xinha as our new option, as long as everyone's okay with that.	00:17
danielsmw	yes, scratch TinyMCE.	00:17
danielsmw	Xinha looks like it has compliant licenses	00:17
danielsmw	and is packagable.	00:17
Sparks	danielsmw: I'm good with whatever works!	00:17
danielsmw	i'm almost done with the spec file, it's just complicated because of the lack of js guidelines.	00:18
danielsmw	but abadger1999 is helping with that and hopefully i'll have it up for review before next wednesday.	00:18
* ianweller is here now		00:18
Sparks	abadger1999++	00:18
danielsmw	Indeed	00:18
Sparks	danielsmw++	00:18
Sparks	Excellent!	00:18
Sparks	Okay... moving on...	00:18
Sparks	ianweller to bring to the list the text for the CC license for the wiki so it can be approved	00:18
Sparks	ianweller: Just in time!	00:18
Sparks	ianweller: I think you did this already... didn't you?	00:19
onekopaka	which CC license?	00:20
Sparks	CC-BY-SA	00:20
onekopaka	mmkay.	00:20
Sparks	ianweller was here....	00:20
Sparks	We'll come back to him later...	00:20
ianweller	hi	00:21
onekopaka	Sparks: he disappears when he wants to.	00:21
ianweller	my internet is suck tonight	00:21
Sparks	ianweller: hi	00:21
ianweller	aaaagain	00:21
stickster	:-D	00:21
ianweller	Sparks: all it needs to say is the message that "blah blah blah is licensed under blah blah blah" at the bottom of the page, just like every CC site	00:21
ianweller	Sparks: unless you're looking for something different	00:21
ianweller	i'm not sure if it's a good thing that my ISP's phone number is a busy signal right now ^_^	00:22
ianweller	Sparks: is that good?	00:23
Sparks	ianweller: Works for me...	00:23
ianweller	ok	00:23
Sparks	Any other old business?	00:23
rudi	Publican update?	00:24
Sparks	#topic Publican Update	00:24
Sparks	rudi: Go for it!	00:24
* quaid is back		00:24
rudi	radsy, ryanlerch, and I are still waiting for sponsorship so that we can get Publican dependencies into Fedora	00:24
rudi	Once that's done, we can move ahead with both 1.0 and with the updated Fedora brand package.	00:25
stickster	ianweller: I think as the wiki czar, you're empowered to make the change, fwiw	00:25
rudi	So, any trusted packagers out there, we need you :)	00:25
stickster	ianweller: As long as we've notified people the change is coming, why, etc.	00:25
rudi	* perl-Locale-Maketext-Gettext-1.27-1.fc11.noarch.rpm – https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=521569	00:26
buggbot	Bug 521569: medium, medium, ---, nobody, NEW, Review Request: perl-Locale-Maketext-Gettext - Joins the gettext and Maketext frameworks	00:26
rudi	* perl-Makefile-DOM-0.004-1.fc11.noarch.rpm — https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=521724	00:26
buggbot	Bug 521724: medium, medium, ---, nobody, NEW, Review Request: perl-Makefile-DOM - Simple DOM parser for Makefiles	00:26
rudi	* perl-Makefile-Parser-0.211-1.fc11.noarch.rpm — https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=521723	00:26
buggbot	Bug 521723: medium, medium, ---, nobody, NEW, Review Request: perl-Makefile-Parser - Simple parser for Makefiles	00:26
Sparks	rudi: Okay. Do we need anyone to give a nudge to someone?	00:26
rudi	Well, unless we have any trusted packagers in the docs group, I'm open to suggestions...	00:26
rudi	This is the blocker right now for Publican	00:27
rudi	ianweller -- are you a trusted packager?	00:27
ianweller	rudi: i guess	00:28
Sparks	rudi: I don't think we have any trusted packagers in Docs. Heck, until a few months ago we didn't have packagers in Docs.	00:28
Sparks	ianweller: Are you?	00:28
ianweller	they trust me enough to sponsor people	00:28
rudi	Great! That's what we need :)	00:28
* ianweller trusts himself less than the community trusts him ;)		00:28
rudi	lolz	00:28
rudi	IMHO, that's always a good sign	00:29
rudi	Do you think you'll have the time to look at those in the near future>?	00:30
rudi	(and, of course, would you want to?)	00:30
Sparks	rudi: Can you get with ianweller after the meeting, maybe?	00:31
rudi	NP	00:31
Sparks	rudi: So basically after that you can support the fedora brand in Publican	00:32
rudi	Yep	00:32
Sparks	Cool	00:32
Sparks	Okay, moving on...	00:32
Sparks	#topic Release notes format changes	00:32
Sparks	#idea Put All Changes in a separate doc?	00:33
Sparks	#idea Drop beats with few changes	00:33
jjmcd	Pretty much did them all except the separate doc ... moved them to the end	00:33
Sparks	#idea Rearrange/add beats	00:33
jjmcd	I think we are ready to make pots. Still a couple of beats to touch up, but we should be at the 90% point.	00:33
Sparks	jjmcd: Cool...	00:33
jjmcd	Many many thanks to rudi and Zach	00:33
Sparks	So the RNs are on schedule?	00:33
jjmcd	L10N will love the 8000+ strings, but I think we'll hide that from them.	00:34
rudi	jjmcd -- so you're ready to pull the trigger now? :)	00:34
jjmcd	Sparks, no, not at all	00:34
jjmcd	rudi yeah	00:34
Sparks	jjmcd: No?	00:34
jjmcd	Most recent build at http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/Download/f12alpha/index.html	00:34
jjmcd	Sparks, even after 900 cycles with john	00:34
rudi	Great -- I'll doctor up a POT file after the meeting :)	00:34
jjmcd	the wiki freeze came AFTER the pots in the schedule	00:34
jjmcd	We should have had pots last week	00:35
jjmcd	With luck, tomorrow. And yeah, htanks much rudi. I would appreciate that	00:35
Sparks	Okay. Anything I can do to help? Do you need more resources?	00:35
jjmcd	Well, we should now be in good shape	00:36
Sparks	Okay	00:36
Sparks	Anything else?	00:36
jjmcd	THere are a couple of lame beats, but most of the changes were in virt	00:36
jjmcd	Also, I got surprised with a huge FEL document	00:36
jjmcd	I trimmed it way down, but it is still too large	00:36
jjmcd	Chitlesh has been working his butt off	00:37
jjmcd	But it is now under control	00:37
Sparks	cool	00:37
Sparks	anything/one else?	00:37
jjmcd	thats it from me	00:37
Sparks	moving on...	00:37
Sparks	#topic Status on CMS (Zikula) <-- ke4qqq	00:37
Sparks	#link Zikula#Module_status	00:38
stickster	jjmcd: rudi: Thanks for your hard work	00:38
Sparks	So Zikula has stalled on the runway... Are we now pushing this for f13 for sure?	00:38
quaid	I think we were clearly not making it for F12, but shortly thereafter	00:39
Sparks	Okay	00:39
quaid	we'll be able to ride 80%+ on the Fedora Insight work going on	00:39
stickster	Assuming that proceeds well	00:39
quaid	skin, integration, etc.	00:39
Sparks	WORKSFORME	00:39
quaid	stickster: well, that would only adjust my 80% down the scale some amount	00:39
quaid	I hope :)	00:39
Sparks	I guess the question now is... do we want to try to work on the existing docs.fp.o to clean it up for F12?	00:40
* mchua wonders if Docs is interested in a zikula sprint for FUDCon as well		00:40
Sparks	mchua: Which FUDCon?	00:40
mchua	f12	00:40
jjmcd	or perhaps a docs.fp.o cleanup	00:41
mchua	as a "Marketing got FI up, let's make our experience useful for Docs" thing infra-wise	00:41
mchua	and a "Docs is good at writing/workflows, Marketing can learn from Docs in getting an FI zikula workflow tweaked" thing as well, perhaps	00:41
Sparks	mchua: I'm good with that	00:42
mchua	Ok. Who should I be coordinating with on that to see if it's a possibility then? Sparks, is that you?	00:42
Sparks	mchua: Sure.	00:42
mchua	cool. action item me. ;)	00:43
Sparks	mchua: Are we talking about the FUDCon in Toronto?	00:43
mchua	yup.	00:43
jjmcd	I think it's too cold for these southern boys	00:43
Sparks	#action mchua to work with Sparks on an FAD for Zikula during FUDCon Toronto	00:43
Sparks	jjmcd: It is concerning	00:43
Sparks	Okay... anythign else?	00:45
Sparks	#topic Status on CC license rollout.	00:45
Sparks	#link License_changeover_schedule	00:45
Sparks	I think we are waiting for the last minute request for quaid to talk to Richard about the CC logo on the wiki	00:46
Sparks	otherwise our next step is to announce internally of the change	00:46
quaid	well ...	00:46
quaid	spot: ping	00:47
spot	quaid: yes?	00:47
quaid	have you heard anything about discussions with Creative Commons	00:47
quaid	about using their logo on our websites?	00:47
spot	i have not... should i have?	00:47
quaid	rfontana said he was going to pursue something with them perhaps.	00:48
spot	send him an email and cc me	00:48
quaid	ok, not sure if you were in that loop or not, I reckon not	00:48
spot	and i will stay on him	00:48
quaid	yeah, he said on list that he was going to look in to it, and I didn't want overly bug him :)	00:48
quaid	but I'll do that now	00:48
quaid	Sparks: k, we've reached	00:48
spot	he tends to be busy	00:48
quaid	the time when i said I'd bug him if we hadn't gotten word	00:48
quaid	so I'll do that :)	00:48
spot	i have regular meetings with him to make sure stuff doesn't get lost	00:48
rudi	For us to be happy to use the logo, CC would have to change *their* licensing...	00:49
stickster	He's a good mug and won't mind being bugged	00:49
rudi	I suspect that even if they agree in principle, it would take time for them to implement that change	00:49
quaid	rudi: well, or give us a specific exception that satisfied us, but ...	00:49
quaid	that might have the same effect :)	00:49
quaid	I think we should, as rudi is perhaps hinting	00:49
Sparks	rudi: They wouldn't have to change their license. We could only use it on the wiki.	00:50
quaid	proceed as if we don't get the logos to use	00:50
rudi	Sparks -- ie, change their license	00:50
Sparks	rudi: Well... yes, they'd have to change for us to use it on our docs	00:50
rudi	quaid -- that is indeed what I'm hinting :)	00:50
Sparks	ya	00:51
Sparks	Well, it really wouldn't be that big of a deal to go back and put the logo in on the wiki...	00:51
rudi	Exactly	00:51
Sparks	So... all in favor of proceeding with just the text of the CC-BY-SA	00:51
Sparks	+1	00:51
rudi	+1	00:51
quaid	+1	00:52
mchua	+1	00:52
stickster	+1 fwiw	00:52
Tsagadai	+1	00:52
jjmcd	abstain	00:52
Sparks	jjmcd: Is there a problem or???	00:52
jjmcd	Nope, I see no prob either way	00:52
Sparks	#agreed Proceed with CC licensing using only the text	00:53
Sparks	quaid: Will you still follow up on the logo issue?	00:53
Sparks	#action quaid to follow up on the CC logo issues	00:54
Sparks	moving on!	00:54
Sparks	#topic Shared open-source style guide	00:54
Sparks	#link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-June/msg00163.html	00:54
Sparks	Does anyone have an update on this?	00:55
rudi	No progess since last week	00:55
Sparks	rudi: Okay	00:55
Tsagadai	not really an update as such but that may come up when I bring in a few things in a couple of weeks :)	00:55
Sparks	rudi: Anything to talk about on this topic?	00:55
Sparks	Tsagadai: Okay	00:55
Tsagadai	there are 3 docs I have which I've scheduled to upstream as soon as I get a chance	00:56
rudi	Sparks -- I'm not sure what the last you heard was; I have a greenlight from legal to take most of our internal material upstream	00:56
Sparks	rudi: I didn't know! Excellent	00:56
Sparks	rudi: Just keep us updated.	00:56
rudi	So it now rests on time arising in my schedule, because legal will need to greenlight the final subset I pull out to use	00:57
Sparks	Okay... cool deal	00:57
Sparks	anything else?	00:57
rudi	Tsagadai -- 3 docs for the upstream Style Guide?	00:57
* Sparks notes two minutes left		00:58
Tsagadai	nope, Virt Guide, Git guide, libvirt API guide :)	00:58
rudi	Ah OK -- you're ahead of us :)	00:58
Sparks	okay, pressing on	00:58
Sparks	#topic Guide needs?	00:58
Sparks	Anyone have any guides that are in need?	00:59
* stickster has to bail for now		00:59
Sparks	#topic New Guides	00:59
Sparks	Any new guides?	00:59
Sparks	#topic All other business	01:00
rudi	Sparks -- I might *very maybe* have an early version of a Power Management guide	01:00
Sparks	Okay, any other business anyone would like to talk about?	01:00
rudi	But that's more likely to make F13	01:00
Sparks	rudi: Ooooo sounds cool	01:00
Sparks	Okay, anyone else?	01:01
Sparks	5	01:01
Sparks	4	01:01
Sparks	3	01:01
perspectival	I've just sent an update concerning the Deployment Guide to the fedora-docs-list	01:01
Sparks	2	01:01
Sparks	perspectival: +1	01:01
perspectival	I try to come in at the last minute	01:01
Sparks	:)	01:01
Sparks	1	01:01
Sparks	Anyone else?	01:01
Sparks	Thanks everyone for coming!	01:01
Sparks	#endmeeting	01:01