Meeting:IRC Support SIG 2009-03-05

---Topic for #fedora-meeting is Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule		Mar 05 09:28
---Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 4 18:15:49 2009		Mar 05 09:28
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Init process.		Mar 05 09:30
*Sonar_Guy is here		Mar 05 09:30
*thomasj		Mar 05 09:30
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*nirik waits a few for more folks to mosey in.		Mar 05 09:30
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Sonar_Guy	nirik, here is the link for what the weekly archives will look like http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly-archive/fedora-weekly-20090227.html	Mar 05 09:31
nirik	cool.	Mar 05 09:31
*zcat ---=---=-----==---		Mar 05 09:32
nirik	ok, I guess we can go ahead and get started then... I have a few items on the agenda today.	Mar 05 09:32
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Classes		Mar 05 09:32
Sonar_Guy	the date will be whatever the thursday is so this weeks will be http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly-archive/fedora-weekly-20090305.html once it runs	Mar 05 09:32
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nirik	classes are meeting this weekend over in #fedora-classroom.	Mar 05 09:32
nirik	I might start announcing in channel... let me know if it gets anoying and I can make it less often.	Mar 05 09:33
nirik	there are still some slots open for last minute classes if anyone decides they can teach something from the wishlist.	Mar 05 09:33
nirik	Classroom is the page	Mar 05 09:33
stickster	I am going to find something for the 2045 UTC class on Saturday	Mar 05 09:34
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stickster	s/something/something to teach/	Mar 05 09:34
nirik	stickster: excellent!	Mar 05 09:34
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nirik	anyone have anything futher on classes, or shall I move on?	Mar 05 09:34
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Feedback		Mar 05 09:35
Sonar_Guy	nirik, you want stats from the classroom channel?	Mar 05 09:35
nirik	Sonar_Guy: not sure it would be too usefull, but if you want to feel free.	Mar 05 09:35
Sonar_Guy	ok	Mar 05 09:35
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nirik	So, next topic: I was pointed at some feedback from someone who is a new linux user and new to fedora. They had some interesting things to say that I think we can learn from.	Mar 05 09:36
*kanarip is here		Mar 05 09:36
nirik	First of all, they were correctly pointed to a link to solve the question/issue they were having, so thats good.	Mar 05 09:36
nirik	But they noted that there is very little sense of community from #fedora. They just briskly were pointed to the link and thats it.	Mar 05 09:37
nirik	I think we could for not much of our effort help out on that front.	Mar 05 09:37
nirik	take a look at How to respond to users on: IRC_helpers_code_of_conduct	Mar 05 09:38
*nirik notes stickster wrote up those for us. ;)		Mar 05 09:38
stickster	I wanted to point out here that I think things in #fedora are immeasurably improved compared to, say, 12 months ago	Mar 05 09:39
Khaytsus	nirik: So instead of just pointing them to the link and that's then end of it, some wording around it.. like "This link can probably help, it has helped others" then a link for example?	Mar 05 09:39
nirik	So, I think we could try and all be more polite... welcome people when they say they are new, say your welcome when they say thanks, etc.	Mar 05 09:39
zcat	Data strives to be more human.	Mar 05 09:39
stickster	It's more of an engagement perspective -- link, "This has helped others," and further, "If it doesn't help or you get stuck, come back and let us know"	Mar 05 09:39
*inode0 seconds stickster's observation		Mar 05 09:39
nirik	Khaytsus: yeah. I think thats all implied to us, but to someone new, they have no idea.	Mar 05 09:39
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nirik	so, mentioning that if they get stuck on specific parts to let us know might help them know its ok to ask.	Mar 05 09:40
Khaytsus	nirik: Yep, I agree. And if you're *really* new (which, again, is hard for us to 'be' these days) even our howtos might not be readable.	Mar 05 09:40
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*inode0 observes in #rhel we now see virtually no one coming to us with hurt feelings from #fedora - so good job		Mar 05 09:40
vwbusguy	should we assume that are at the aptitude of reading the release notes	Mar 05 09:41
nirik	and especially since many of our links are just aliases/shortcuts, it could be easy to just add those things once.	Mar 05 09:41
vwbusguy	or is that asking too much?	Mar 05 09:41
vwbusguy	the release notes are pretty explanatory and n00b friendly	Mar 05 09:41
nirik	well, we can assume they can get on irc at least. ;)	Mar 05 09:41
Khaytsus	nirik: So is it at least more personal to add such comments to our scripts? ;-)	Mar 05 09:41
stickster	vwbusguy: Personally, I think you can assume they're *capable* of it, not that they *have* :-)	Mar 05 09:41
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nirik	personally impersonal. ;) But I think it would help some new folks know that this is a community and we are trying to help, not a faqbot channel where they get a link and thats it.	Mar 05 09:42
stickster	:-)	Mar 05 09:42
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stickster	I think something else we can all recognize is when we or someone we know is getting frustrated or tired when helping	Mar 05 09:43
nirik	so, does that make sense? any objections?	Mar 05 09:43
Khaytsus	nirik: Yep, this is true. I'll work on it on my own scripts, I'm sure others will do similar.	Mar 05 09:43
nirik	yes, that was the second point I was going to bring up... the person above got their link, but then they saw some other user get berated/called stupid/etc... and that made them wonder also about the community	Mar 05 09:44
nirik	we really should try and avoid any kind of personal attacks and quash them when we see them from others... I know it's not possible to get them all	Mar 05 09:45
nirik	and if you are helping and someone is pushing your buttons to the point where you are about to call them stupid or attack them, excuse yourself and come back later.	Mar 05 09:46
stickster	nirik: Sorry, didn't mean to jump the shark :-)	Mar 05 09:46
nirik	no worries. ;)	Mar 05 09:46
*Khaytsus hides		Mar 05 09:46
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nirik	anyhow, thats a old discussion. It's hard to get everyone to stop doing that. Especially when a user frustrates them.	Mar 05 09:46
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nirik	but I would ask everyone to try.	Mar 05 09:46
Khaytsus	nirik: Or the same user... daily.... same questions..	Mar 05 09:47
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Khaytsus	But yep, we should all try.	Mar 05 09:47
Khaytsus	I'm probably more guilty than most :/	Mar 05 09:47
nirik	or the f11a running user who is told to go to f10 for a stable release then comes back 10 seconds later saying they are now running f10. ;)	Mar 05 09:47
vwbusguy	some users are especially frustrating. I think nirik's right that it's best to take a break though.	Mar 05 09:47
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nirik	instead of 'frustrated -> personal attack -> walk away' we should all 'frustrated -> walk away' and avoid the attack.	Mar 05 09:48
stickster	Sometimes it's also OK to say something like "I'm sorry I can't help you further," and move on, or ask another helper/op to assist	Mar 05 09:48
stickster	Yeah, what nirik said.	Mar 05 09:48
zcat	you have stick it in your...ctrl-a backspace	Mar 05 09:49
stickster	IRC is such a tricky beast -- very little of the humanizing context of a face to face contact.	Mar 05 09:49
vwbusguy	lol	Mar 05 09:49
*nirik has done that...typed out a line, then realized it wasn't constructive, and deleted it.		Mar 05 09:49
Khaytsus	zcat: I've actually done that :( except I'm a ^u kinda guy ;-)	Mar 05 09:49
vwbusguy	stickster, heh, that's why I like it, I get enough of that from $dayjob	Mar 05 09:49
zcat	Khaytsus, not readline in xchat though	Mar 05 09:50
Khaytsus	zcat: I used that once.	Mar 05 09:50
nirik	stickster: anything else we should go over here?	Mar 05 09:50
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stickster	The Internet is very good at turning people into real jerks by virtue of anonymity. Because we represent something other than ourselves -- Fedora -- we have to go to greater lengths to be positive	Mar 05 09:50
vwbusguy	but yeah, I especially feel for the first time user who feels totally lost	Mar 05 09:50
nirik	if anyone can think of anything to add to IRC_helpers_code_of_conduct ?	Mar 05 09:50
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Khaytsus	Hmmmm... Speaking of personalizing things, nirik, what do you think about a Solved page with some info for on our irc ops that might let people know more than a nick?	Mar 05 09:51
stickster	nirik: Nothing else here, just wanted to explain myself. The opening and closing point I wanted to make was that I think we're doing much better on this front, and just to reiterate that it's a daily initiative	Mar 05 09:51
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Khaytsus	We can take it offline to #fedora-ops, just mentioning it here	Mar 05 09:51
vwbusguy	"If you find yourself losing patience, excuse yourself by apologizing and saying you have to attend to something else. It's OK to step away for a few minutes until you feel you're ready to help again. Better that the channel go understaffed for that time than for the general atmosphere to decline. "	Mar 05 09:51
vwbusguy	that's a good summary	Mar 05 09:52
Khaytsus	vwbusguy: Ah, the electronic version of crumpling paper and hanging up	Mar 05 09:52
vwbusguy	Khaytsus, which is better than throwing the paper at customer first	Mar 05 09:52
nirik	Khaytsus: yeah, we could do something like that... or a link to wiki pages or home pages or something...	Mar 05 09:52
rjune_	Khaytsus, more like the electronic version of putting the customer back into the queue	Mar 05 09:52
stickster	Can we put something like that on the wiki? A bit of personal info?	Mar 05 09:52
kanarip	isn't that what the personal wiki page is for, too?	Mar 05 09:53
stickster	kanarip: True, true -- and there's always transcludes to make it all glue together somewhere.	Mar 05 09:53
kanarip	seriously, add a short bio there, things you do within fedora, the lot	Mar 05 09:53
Khaytsus	stickster: I'm thinking something simple like a picture (up to the op), some very quick background, nothing real personal, just a few lines of background, knowldge, some statement about why they are a Fedora op	Mar 05 09:53
nirik	we could even link it to the stats. ;)	Mar 05 09:53
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stickster	Khaytsus: Sure, that sounds perfect	Mar 05 09:54
Khaytsus	So yeah, like stickster says, perhaps we just need to fill out such things and then glue it together. Possible to summarize it into a single page, rather than links to each?	Mar 05 09:54
vwbusguy	and link to our user wiki pages :-)	Mar 05 09:54
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/About_the_IRC_staff	Mar 05 09:54
zcat	Khaytsus, everybody's "hackergotchi" headshot and a oneliner quote, all squished on one page?	Mar 05 09:54
Khaytsus	zcat: yeah, something like that.. i don't have a gotchi, but I could make one in 30s ;-)	Mar 05 09:55
vwbusguy	blog links?	Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus	zcat: Perhaps more than one line, but dunno	Mar 05 09:55
kanarip	add a "what the other ops have to say about $fedora-op" kinda interview style ;-)	Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus	vwbusguy: Do you want #fedora reading your cable company rants? :D	Mar 05 09:55
vwbusguy	that was one post, haha	Mar 05 09:55
nirik	I think this could be a good idea... lots of ways we could go on it.	Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus	Yep, we can probably discuss it another time in more detail	Mar 05 09:56
nirik	But short summary: be more polite, greet people who are new, change links to note that we will be happy to help them if they get stuck, take a break if someone frustrates you, and try and quash personal attacks.	Mar 05 09:56
stickster	Khaytsus: +1	Mar 05 09:56
*stickster puts note at About_the_IRC_staff		Mar 05 09:57
*vwbusguy bookmarks it		Mar 05 09:57
Khaytsus	:)	Mar 05 09:57
vwbusguy	If I get a chance today I'll start a layout for it	Mar 05 09:57
nirik	ok, anything more on this topic we should go over?	Mar 05 09:57
vwbusguy	and add a link to it from Start page	Mar 05 09:57
thomasj	omg	Mar 05 09:58
*nirik will move on in a few		Mar 05 09:58
thomasj	please	Mar 05 09:59
thomasj	move on :D	Mar 05 09:59
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Stats		Mar 05 09:59
nirik	so Sonar_Guy has been running weekly stats for us.	Mar 05 09:59
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nirik	http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html	Mar 05 10:00
nirik	so, this tells us who was most active in channel over the last week.	Mar 05 10:00
ivazquez|laptop	By that measure, I shouldn't even be here :P	Mar 05 10:01
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nirik	no, thats nothing about quality. :)	Mar 05 10:01
nirik	it also shows us top links in the channel and number of kicks/bans	Mar 05 10:01
kanarip	good, because i'm not that active	Mar 05 10:01
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nirik	so, we are pretty low on kicks (only the paste floods) and only 1 user I think this week... pretty amazing, but I think making the channel a better place made many of the users we had to kick move on.	Mar 05 10:03
vwbusguy	my random quotes never make sense, haha	Mar 05 10:03
vwbusguy	I always get pre-coffee quotes	Mar 05 10:03
nirik	pulseaudio seems to still be a hot topic.	Mar 05 10:03
nirik	the libgxim bug and update was big too.	Mar 05 10:03
zcat	and looks i got caught there being !nice. "set XanThaOs --quiet --OCD=0"	Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus	zcat: sweet	Mar 05 10:04
fenrus02	speaking of PA, if you find something that isnt listed on the wiki page - please let me know and i'll fix it.	Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus	I mean.. bad!	Mar 05 10:04
nirik	so, I think these are good to go over... and if we want anything more added, talk to Sonar_Guy	Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus	fenrus02: Did you ever add anything specific to restarting Pulse? Might ponder that one if not.	Mar 05 10:05
nirik	fenrus02: oh, would you mind if I run the link by the pulseaudio author? note that he is... blunt, so he might rant at you if something is not exactly right.	Mar 05 10:05
fenrus02	libgxim fix has been pushed already, so it should quiet down. evdev is next in line afaict	Mar 05 10:05
fenrus02	nirik, Please do!	Mar 05 10:05
nirik	ok, will mention it to him next time I see him on irc.	Mar 05 10:05
nirik	anything else on stats?	Mar 05 10:06
fenrus02	nirik, I just compiled a list of random trash i found on the intarwebz ...	Mar 05 10:06
Khaytsus	nirik: Remind him that fenrus02 didn't just make the stuff up, they are responses to things that have happened ;-)	Mar 05 10:06
fenrus02	Khaytsus, i think it's there	Mar 05 10:06
nirik	ok, will move on in a sec.	Mar 05 10:06
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Contact		Mar 05 10:07
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nirik	so fenrus02 mentioned a good idea... we don't have any feedback/contact right now thats at all official.	Mar 05 10:07
nirik	what would folks think of setting up a alias to go to me or whoever wants it to get feedback via email?	Mar 05 10:07
nirik	irc-support@fedoraproject.org or something.	Mar 05 10:07
fenrus02	just be careful that it does not turn into a helpline.	Mar 05 10:08
nirik	yeah, agreed. Any help requests should get directed to the irc channel, the forums or the fedora-list.	Mar 05 10:08
kanarip	why not, it's about time we get rid of fedora-list@redhat.com ;-)	Mar 05 10:08
stickster	nirik: Is there an alias for irc ops group in FAS?	Mar 05 10:08
kanarip	there is	Mar 05 10:09
stickster	Or am I on a totally different wavelength from what you want?	Mar 05 10:09
nirik	stickster: well, there is the 'irc_support_operators-members@fedoraproject.org'	Mar 05 10:09
nirik	(i think thats the group)	Mar 05 10:09
stickster	Rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it?	Mar 05 10:09
kanarip	.fasinfo kanarip	Mar 05 10:09
zodbot	kanarip: User: kanarip, Name: Jeroen van Meeuwen, email: kanarip@kanarip.com, Creation: 2006-05-29, IRC Nick: kanarip, Timezone: Europe/Amsterdam, Locale: en, Extension: 5100680, GPG key ID: 9342BF08	Mar 05 10:09
zodbot	kanarip: Approved Groups: cla_done fedorabugs packager docs sysadmin ambassadors gitrevisor cvsl10n cla_fedora sysadmin-test gitwevisor sysadmin-noc gitpyjigdo gitspin-kickstarts provenpackager gitcsi gitgenome gitcourses gitpublican-genome gitlogrotate-syslog irc-support-operators fedora-emea-board gitfedora-devshell	Mar 05 10:09
zodbot	kanarip: Unapproved Groups: gitlivecd gitanaconda	Mar 05 10:09
kanarip	irc-support-operators-members@fedoraproject.org, ergo	Mar 05 10:09
nirik	but that would spam all the ops...	Mar 05 10:09
nirik	I was thinking more a alias like the webmaster one for irc support kudos and complaints.	Mar 05 10:10
stickster	yup, true... so I'm not sure I suggested the right thing.	Mar 05 10:10
thomasj	no problem with that spam	Mar 05 10:10
vwbusguy	I wouldn't mind if all ops had access to comments	Mar 05 10:10
nirik	we can do that, but just saying it might generate a lot of email for folks...	Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy	either via email or if we could dump emails somewhere	Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy	like a private mailing list with a searchabel archive ?	Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy	anyone can email but not an end user support list	Mar 05 10:11
nirik	yeah, but we need to make sure it doesn't require subscribing.	Mar 05 10:11
kanarip	nirik, afaik the alias is public already... it's just not being advertised anywhere	Mar 05 10:12
nirik	so someone would need to manage the spam. ;)	Mar 05 10:12
vwbusguy	you can set that up with mailman	Mar 05 10:12
fenrus02	webform titled something like "irc suggestion box" ?	Mar 05 10:12
vwbusguy	nirik, yeah that's true. Someone would have to moderate it	Mar 05 10:12
nirik	kanarip: sure. I don't get too much spam that I know of from 'cla_done-members' either I guess.	Mar 05 10:12
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nirik	what I would like to see: a easy way or ways for people to provide feedback... email/webform/irc whatever.	Mar 05 10:13
nirik	we don't have to decide anything now, we can ponder on it over the next week and come up with ideas.	Mar 05 10:13
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---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Open Floor		Mar 05 10:14
nirik	anything further anyone has on any topic?	Mar 05 10:14
*nirik will close out the meeting in a few if no one has any further items.		Mar 05 10:16
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nirik	ok, thanks for coming everyone. Keep up the great work!	Mar 05 10:18
---nirik has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule		Mar 05 10:18
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