Meeting:Release Notes IRC log 20090723

Sparks	#startmeeting Release Notes Meeting	15:02
Sparks	Who is here?	15:02
* Sparks		15:02
* zoglesby is here		15:02
* rudi is here		15:02
* bcotton is here		15:02
* jjmcd is taking a break from spending the state's money		15:02
* laubersm found you		15:03
Sparks	Okay... I'd like to discuss the following:	15:04
* laubersm goes to refill coffe mug before settling in for this hour of fun		15:05
Sparks	1. How to improve on the F12 RNs	15:05
Sparks	2. What products need to be generated.	15:05
Sparks	3. Using Publican for the RNs	15:05
Sparks	4. Training people to write beats.	15:06
Sparks	laubersm: Hour? We've got this channel all day.	15:06
Sparks	Anything else we need to discuss?	15:07
* zoglesby get coffe IV		15:07
* laubersm found only dregs and was too lazy to make more - but returned to this fun anyways		15:07
jjmcd	Probably we should discudd who the audience is before attempting to answer those questions	15:08
Sparks	jjmcd: yes	15:08
jjmcd	sheesh the typing	15:08
Sparks	anything else?	15:08
rudi	Packaging	15:09
rudi	As in, when and what	15:09
jjmcd	Influenced by 2 of course	15:09
rudi	Yeah	15:09
Sparks	Okay, let's get started...	15:10
Sparks	#topic Audience	15:10
jjmcd	I see 3	15:10
jjmcd	People who just installed and want to know what's new	15:10
jjmcd	People preparing to install	15:11
jjmcd	People looking for a new feature or fixed bug	15:11
Sparks	Wouldn't the second one be the IG?	15:11
jjmcd	Not necessarily	15:11
jjmcd	For example, database changes almost always require you to do something before install	15:11
Sparks	errr... shouldn't it be included in the IG	15:11
jjmcd	those won't be in the IG	15:11
Sparks	True	15:12
Sparks	So more of an upgrade guide	15:12
zoglesby	I think there is one more	15:12
jjmcd	Yeah, almost anything that needs a backup or something before upgrade needs to be captured	15:12
zoglesby	People that hear about Fedora and are trying to see what it has to offer	15:12
zoglesby	I often look at release notes when I hear about a new distro	15:13
jjmcd	Yeah, probably looking for more detail than the announcement	15:13
Sparks	Okay, so I see this as:	15:13
Sparks	The BIG RNs goes to the third group.	15:14
Sparks	A "Welcome to Fedora ##" for the last	15:14
Sparks	The "pretty" RN (from Marketing) for the first	15:14
jjmcd	I think welcome can also address the first group in an introductory way	15:14
Sparks	yes	15:14
jjmcd	good point. Perhaps marketing should do the welcome to fedora xx	15:15
Sparks	definitely	15:15
Sparks	So we are already working on the "pretty" version with Marketing.	15:17
Sparks	And we currently have the BIG RNs	15:17
laubersm	I generally find most "users" - new or upgrading - think of wiki and IG and UG as resources more than the RN - they tend to think Release Notes are for the geeks	15:17
Sparks	So we need to figure out the Upgrade guide	15:17
laubersm	The RN can include links to those general resources - and should	15:17
laubersm	UG = users guide	15:18
Sparks	agreed	15:18
laubersm	do we really need a separate upgrade guide? can't it be in the IG?	15:18
jjmcd	So the beat writers will need to be upgrade writers too, or at least help guide the upgrade writers	15:18
jjmcd	laubersm, I doubt if the experienced user will look at the install guide	15:18
Sparks	Well, I think the IG should have information on upgrading	15:18
rudi	FWIW, the IG already details several different upgrade paths	15:19
laubersm	jjmcd, I was thinking more of the reminders of good general practices - RN would still be for the "this time it is bar than needs to be reconfigured instead of foo"	15:19
jjmcd	But does it include things like "save your qle database to sql before upgrading and reimport after the upgrade"?	15:19
jjmcd	Yes, I don't see the upgrade guide as including all the version specific details	15:20
rudi	jjmcd -- no; and I think that's probably out of scope	15:20
laubersm	jjmcd, if that is an everytime you upgrade the db than it should be in a general guide and not repeated with every RN	15:20
Sparks	So beat writers talk about new stuff and also issues to upgrading	15:21
jjmcd	Yes, but most of the time you don't need to, seems like every third or fourth time with MYSQL, Postgres, and some others there are special things to do	15:21
jjmcd	But I agree, if its every time, then the upgrade guide	15:21
jjmcd	I see beat writers as listing all changes, but providing prose for "important" changes and upgrade issues	15:22
jjmcd	That way the change that you care about, but I don't see as important, is at least noted	15:23
laubersm	remind me - who makes up the beat writers? some are docs team members but aren't some from other teams that just help with RN?	15:23
jjmcd	Mostly docs team members but not always	15:24
jjmcd	We generally seem to do better with team members	15:24
laubersm	I ask because maybe docs members - or people more familiar with the many guides - should be reviewing to make sure RN stays trim and important stuff gets rediurected to the guides	15:24
laubersm	it seems to me that we just haven't had time for that in the past -	15:24
laubersm	even though the intent has been good	15:25
* laubersm prefers reviewing to writing by the way		15:25
jjmcd	I'm hoping to have more lists and less prose this time around	15:25
jjmcd	Should give us more opportunity to review	15:25
jjmcd	And less work for translators	15:26
laubersm	and will the review period be as free form as last time or will it be a bullet on the docs team schedule (or in a wiki chart)?	15:26
jjmcd	I hope to take poelcat's schedule and add in some docs and l10n bullets	15:27
laubersm	cool.	15:27
jjmcd	We never got the l10n notifications in there and we need that	15:27
Sparks	Yeah, I think we need to make sure we get these beats done well ahead of time	15:27
laubersm	I think if beat writers trade reviewing it will help the overall flow of all the RNs as well - and catch more duplication (or need for general docs tips)	15:28
Sparks	Okay... I don't want to drag this meeting out...  :)	15:28
Sparks	laubersm: I agree.	15:29
Sparks	So can we say that three "RNs" will make this work?	15:29
jjmcd	Most of that has to do with communications with other teams. Looking at the F11 beats, the only writer who wasn't a docs member at all was Chitlesh, although Jens I think is in the group, but not at the meetings etc	15:29
jjmcd	what three?	15:29
Sparks	1) Big RNs	15:29
zoglesby	I think we had so much duplicate stuff last time cause on the last day 3 of of were writing all the stuf that didnt get done	15:29
laubersm	How are we naming these so they catch the correct audience?	15:29
Sparks	2) "Pretty RN"	15:30
Sparks	3) Upgrade "Guide"	15:30
jjmcd	You don't see the "pretty RN" as chapter one of big rn?	15:30
Sparks	The "Pretty RN" will be very graphical	15:30
jjmcd	ahhh good	15:30
Sparks	kind of like a "newsletter"	15:30
Sparks	a flyer	15:30
jjmcd	sounds like a bitch to translate	15:31
jjmcd	but we did it with IG if I recall	15:31
rudi	Not as long as people are careful to keep text out of the graphics	15:31
rudi	And rely on captions, or callouts	15:31
rudi	And yeah, the IG has about 70 images in each of about 35 localisations	15:32
Sparks	So are we good with those three?	15:32
jjmcd	question fro rudi	15:32
jjmcd	did you do those with dot or something so that you could translate easily?	15:33
rudi	Yeah, where needed.	15:33
jjmcd	cool	15:33
jjmcd	I like it Sparks	15:33
Sparks	#idea Three "RN" guides: big RN, "pretty" RN, and Upgrade Guide	15:34
rudi	jjmcd -- http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/s1-guimode-textinterface-x86.html	15:34
Sparks	Okay to move on?	15:35
rudi	Do we have any specific plan to keep down the bigness of the big RN?	15:35
jjmcd	tables	15:35
rudi	Hmmm -- tables might get L10N hating us for whole new reasons :)	15:36
zoglesby	I think that one of the big issues for 11 was the amount of info trans had to deal with if we add 2 more we need to cut some down	15:36
jjmcd	Nothing in the tables to translate	15:36
rudi	Oh OK.	15:36
rudi	Just that elements in lists and tables are very challenging	15:37
jjmcd	Jus package name, old version, new version link	15:37
jjmcd	Specifically intended to not need translation	15:37
zoglesby	lol	15:37
rudi	Without any description of what actually changed?	15:37
zoglesby	I think we can automate that to,	15:37
jjmcd	zoglesby, a lot of the prose was just fluff. Already automated ;-)	15:38
jjmcd	rudi, only "important" changes	15:38
rudi	OK	15:38
jjmcd	User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Fedora_12_tables	15:38
jjmcd	Not organized by beats, and needs a lot of editing	15:39
rudi	sure, but yeah, I get the picture now	15:39
zoglesby	why do we have meetings again? Why not force jjmcd to 6S everything for us	15:39
Sparks	+1	15:40
jjmcd	We still need ppl who can reed and spel gud	15:40
laubersm	zodbot, because last time he built and rpm and left town and it had to be redone before he returned	15:40
laubersm	arg... that was for zoglesby	15:40
zoglesby	this is more of a fedora change log then release notes	15:40
* laubersm relies on tab complete too much without looking		15:41
jjmcd	Well, we do need the change log. In my view, we still need prose for "important" changes, but this way someone looking for a feature or bugfix can see if it is there	15:41
zoglesby	laubersm: ah yes that was a good day	15:41
jjmcd	ANd that list is long because it is against rawhide. As we close in on release it will get shorter	15:42
rudi	zoglesby; true to some extent, but then, there was a lot of stuff in previous RNs that was basically "Package X has been upgraded from version 1.7 to 1.9"	15:42
zoglesby	jjmcd: very true, it takes care of one group	15:42
jjmcd	Yes, and the prose takes care of the others	15:42
zoglesby	ok	15:42
jjmcd	rudi, and that prose only provided useless work for translators	15:42
rudi	Yep.	15:43
Sparks	jjmcd: Are you reviewig bug reports for stuff to go into the RN?	15:43
jjmcd	Yes, hit a bunch last week	15:43
laubersm	How about a para on how to use a tool to find that list and not include it at all :)	15:43
jjmcd	One "content" bug I still needs more research	15:43
* laubersm thinks such lists reinvent the wheel and will always miss something		15:44
jjmcd	And the remaining RN bugs either need a lot of work or need to wait for something else	15:44
zoglesby	put a link to the fedora community site	15:44
jjmcd	laubersm, probably not a bad idea	15:44
Sparks	jjmcd: Are people actually flagging items to be included in the RNs?	15:45
zoglesby	but there went your 0 trans :P	15:45
jjmcd	Sparks, generally no	15:45
Sparks	jjmcd: Maybe we should encourage that and then query that.	15:45
jjmcd	I wonder how good an idea that is actually	15:45
jjmcd	For the person working on a package, any change is "important"	15:45
jjmcd	Although when you have someone like Chitlesh or Jens who sees the bigger picture, it is great when they can work on the prose	15:46
laubersm	jjmcd, will the list at least be at the end - ie "other updates include:" so I don't have to scroll through it to get to the prose?	15:46
jjmcd	yes, that was my view - but by beat	15:47
jjmcd	So you get the database prose, then the list	15:47
laubersm	ok	15:47
jjmcd	Problem is, the yum groups are all screwed up, so organizing the list by beat is going to be a bit of a job	15:47
jjmcd	That drafts page is by yum group	15:48
jjmcd	But as you said, perhaps we make a page that gets updated nightly for the list, or make the tool easy enough for people to use	15:50
jjmcd	That way you can see what changed from F11 to NOW rather than to the initial release of 12	15:51
zoglesby	+1	15:51
jjmcd	is there a php interface to sqlite?	15:52
* Sparks notes nine minutes left		15:53
jjmcd	Still have most agenda items left	15:53
Sparks	Yes	15:53
jjmcd	yes sqlite or yes agenda?	15:54
Sparks	yes agenda	15:54
jjmcd	What is the issue with Publican? I thought we had that answered.	15:55
Sparks	Well... If you can do what you need to do then I'm fine.	15:55
Sparks	I can't get the SRPMs to generate in koji. They fail	15:55
* jjmcd has no issue with Publican		15:55
rudi	The Beta for Publican 1.0 should be announced soon now	15:55
jjmcd	I've been manually building the SRPM, if Publican can do it right, great, but making the RPM isn't a biggie	15:56
rudi	I can't help with the SRPMs, but until 1.0 appears, we now have hackish fixes to most of the glitches in 0.44 up on the wiki	15:57
Sparks	Well, hopefully the "new" version of Publican will fix the problems.	15:57
jjmcd	If we still include N docs in the RN RPM it doesn't matter anyway	15:57
zoglesby	rudi: the fedora wiki or publican wiki?	15:57
rudi	Fedora wiki	15:57
laubersm	Even if there are glitches with the building the SRPM, I have no issues with publican - all items should be created with publican	15:58
rudi	Publican#Publican_on_Fedora_Tips_and_Tweaks	15:58
* laubersm did not like the old toolchain adventure		15:58
* jjmcd agrees with laubersm		15:58
jjmcd	I'm afraid we need at least another meeting to answer the "what products" question though	15:59
Sparks	jjmcd: That's cool. Is this time good with everyone?	15:59
* Sparks notes that it is awfully late/early for rudi		15:59
* rudi isn't crazy about it, but will turn up with enough warning :)		15:59
jjmcd	This time on Thursday is suboptimal but doable	15:59
rudi	2AM here in the middle of an Australian winter	16:00
zoglesby	rudi: thats me every docs meeting!	16:00
zoglesby	well not the winter part	16:00
rudi	:D	16:00
* jjmcd will probably be out of town the next few Wednesdays, tho, so Thursday is better than Wednesday		16:01
zoglesby	and I only wish I was in Australian	16:01
laubersm	I will have a harder time next week - afternoon would be better when students are more likely to be doing labs instead of listening to me talk....	16:01
zoglesby	Sparks: any time is good with me, if I have to I will use my phone and not talk so much	16:01
* laubersm is EDT when refering to afternoon		16:02
* Sparks is EDT, too		16:02
jjmcd	If you move to 2000Z you are starting to get into a semi-sensible morning time for rudi	16:02
* Sparks notes 2000z is drive time for us in EDT		16:03
rudi	Don't worry about me; I'm happy to work around you guys	16:03
Sparks	rudi: Time and a half at 1A?	16:03
rudi	I wish! :)	16:04
zoglesby	lol	16:04
Sparks	I miss shift-differential	16:04
jjmcd	Not me ... back when I got it, I was making $1.82 an hour	16:04
Sparks	Okay, anything else we need to discuss today?	16:05
zoglesby	I missing getting paid for the amount of time I work not working 80 hour weeks and getting the same as everyone else working 40	16:05
rudi	Not discuss, but a thought to leave with people that we should perhaps try to get a package into rawhide rooner rather than later	16:06
Sparks	I agree	16:06
zoglesby	indeed	16:06
laubersm	+1	16:07
rudi	ECS will be able to help out with some of the heavy lifting content-wise, but not so much with the packaging	16:07
rudi	(and hopefully there will be less heavy lifting this time round anyway)	16:07
Sparks	Okay, anything else?	16:08
Sparks	Okay, while we didn't get through everything we did have a good discussion.	16:08
Sparks	Good ideas	16:08
Sparks	Okay, thanks for coming!	16:10
Sparks	#endmeeting	16:10