ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2008-aug-11

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2008-08-11

Schedule Review

• http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html

Fedora 10 Beta

• f13 to create the various action tickets for the Beta release.
• this will be a blocking freeze so we need to make every effort to have as short of a freeze as possible
• 2008-08-19 Beta/Feature freeze

Spins

• https://fedorahosted.org/projects/rel-eng/ticket/24
• http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/SpinSubmissionProcess
• Approved by Spins SIG and only require board approval for trademark usage
• Release Engineering approves from perspective of a "feature" of the release under development
• Approved spins by Release Engineering--additional questions or comments in associated discussion page
  • Features/EducationSpin
  • Features/GamesSpin
  • Features/XfceSpin
• poelcat to add feature tracker bugs to individual feature pages

IRC Transcript

f13	ping: poelcat notting jeremy jwb spot rdieter warren wwoods lmacken	10:03
jwb	here	10:03
jeremy	hi	10:03
* spot is here		10:04
* poelcat here		10:04
poelcat	f13: i have one agenda item--quick schedule sanity review	10:05
poelcat	i recently added some more detail and want to make stuff is land on the right days	10:05
poelcat	i found a few that weren't and fixed them	10:05
f13	this would be the full view on your people page?	10:06
poelcat	current version: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html	10:06
zodbot	<http://tinyurl.com/6qyfg6> (at poelstra.fedorapeople.org)	10:06
* f13 looks		10:07
* warren here but on the phone		10:07
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Updated schedule http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html		10:07
* wwoods here		10:08
f13	poelcat: what all did you change?	10:09
poelcat	poelcat: added snapshots	10:09
f13	everything seems OK, although I'm a bit dubious about snapshot1 coming just 2 days after the Beta release	10:09
jeremy	agreed	10:10
poelcat	f13: that might be a mistake... I can drop that one	10:10
f13	yeah, I'd prefer we drop that one	10:10
poelcat	and final devel freeze is 30-sept which I had wrong on the wiki version	10:10
jeremy	poelcat: it's not a mistake if you lookat how it falls out. it's just something that might not make much sense (distractions, etc)	10:10
poelcat	f13: will do	10:10
poelcat	jeremy: well there were three for F9.. and i found a way to fit in four for f10 :)	10:11
f13	thanks	10:11
f13	anybody unhappy with the snapshot additions (minus removing snapshot 1)?	10:13
f13	seems like no, we approve those changes.	10:14
poelcat	http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-releng-tasks.html	10:14
zodbot	<http://tinyurl.com/6qyfg6> (at poelstra.fedorapeople.org)	10:14
poelcat	updated	10:14
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F10		10:14
f13	.rel 24	10:14
zodbot	f13: #24 (spins for Fedora 9) - Fedora Release Engineering - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/rel-eng/ticket/24	10:15
f13	er	10:15
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F9		10:15
jlaska	f13: snapshot#1 might be right after beta release, but it is more than 2 wks after the beta freeze.	10:15
f13	so the spins have been up for a couple weeks.	10:15
f13	jlaska: while that's true, trying to get a snapshot staged, and actually into people's hands two days after beta releases is going to be tough.	10:15
f13	jlaska: also, it'll likely take more than a week to stabalize after all the hidden updates flood rawhide post-freeze	10:16
f13	anywho, back to topic.	10:16
f13	I haven't seen any reports good/bad on the spins. I suggest we ping the spin owners and ask for a go/nogo on upgrading the "beta" to "final" for those spins.	10:16
f13	jwb: would you be able to take this back on?	10:16
* jwb nods		10:17
jlaska	f13: that will drop the total number of snaps to 3 ... should we instead keep 4 and push out a week?	10:17
mether	f13: the only that I have significantly tested along with others is Xfce. It should be ready to go	10:17
nirik	it's worked fine for me here in my testing as well (The Xfce)	10:18
jwb	these are the F9 spins right?	10:18
jeremy	f13: sounds good to me	10:18
mether	yes	10:18
jwb	k	10:18
f13	jlaska: I can create a snapshot that friday for "internal" testing, I just don't want to muddy the public waters by pushing it out there.	10:18
jwb	we need to talk about the F10 spins soon	10:18
poelcat	jwb: yes... i'm confused on what to do w/ the feature pages... they are stuck in my queue	10:19
f13	what spins have been proposed?	10:19
jwb	i've not seen any come into rel-eng yet	10:19
f13	and are they ready for us to review/vote? (essentially would they be ready for FESCo if they were other features)	10:20
f13	wait.	10:20
f13	lets move that topic later, after we get through the tickets.	10:20
jwb	k	10:20
jeremy	which, speaking of spins for f10 -- the live image configs are moved as of today (mail forthcoming when I get to it) to the spin-kickstarts repo rather than being in livecd-tools itself	10:20
f13	jwb: can you update/take ownership of ticket 24 once more?	10:20
jwb	yes	10:20
f13	ok, moving on.	10:20
f13	well. that was silly, no other tickets there.	10:21
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - F10 Beta		10:21
f13	I need to create the various action tickets for the Beta release.	10:21
f13	the process started today with a heads up mail to fedora-devel-announce warning people of hte freeze, requesting people be careful with risky changes from here on out, and to do some beta readiness checking.	10:21
f13	I'm going to be producing full trees again (once we have a working anaconda) to see where we are with things that failed in Alpha, and to look for regressions	10:22
f13	this will be a blocking freeze, so we need to make every effort to have as short of a freeze as possible, which means putting in time now, rather than after the freeze	10:22
f13	as far as schedule goes, I don't necessarily have any immediate reasons to adjust the beta schedule, but I've asked sigs/groups/feature owners/etc... to reflect upon where their area of interest is at right now, and if more (reasonable) time would be useful.	10:26
f13	Fesco/board et al meet this week and should also consider any schedule changes.	10:26
f13	anything further on Beta before we move on to spins?	10:27
wwoods	F10 feature window closing. You know what that means: F11 feature window opens	10:28
wwoods	heh	10:28
f13	right, I hinted at that.	10:28
* jeremy prefers people to think about f10 features at the moment :)		10:28
f13	ok, lets move on.	10:29
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Spins		10:29
jwb	yeah	10:29
wwoods	yeah but we just need to remember to get that across for the inevitable complaints about how we maliciously dropped pet-feature-X	10:29
jwb	so poelcat you have F10 spins feature pages?	10:29
wwoods	but yes. move on,.	10:29
f13	poelcat: you mentioned you had some spins in your queue, are any ready to be presented to releng?	10:29
jeremy	as I said above, kickstart configs for default spins have now moved	10:29
f13	or do you need info from releng about what makes them "ready" ?	10:29
f13	jeremy: this is good. Where would I attach myself to get change notifications of this repo?	10:29
jeremy	f13: looks like spin-kickstarts-commits@lists.fedorahosted	10:30
* warren back		10:30
poelcat	f13: just a sec	10:31
f13	bah, what's the mailman url to that?	10:31
jeremy	f13: dunno :)	10:31
poelcat	Features/BrOffice.orgSpin	10:32
poelcat	Features/EducationSpin	10:32
poelcat	Features/GamesSpin	10:32
poelcat	Features/XfceSpin	10:32
* poelcat is unclear what the critiera for reviewing them is		10:32
f13	poelcat: these are all ready for review?	10:32
f13	poelcat: "ready for FESCo" works for me	10:32
jwb	poelcat, use the same criteria you would with actual Features	10:32
f13	rather "same criteria you'd use to decide a normal feature is ready for FESCo"	10:32
jwb	just send them to rel-eng instead	10:32
poelcat	okay	10:33
poelcat	so, yes, I believe these are all ready	10:33
f13	ok.	10:34
* f13 goes to look at the first one.		10:34
jwb	i'm confused	10:35
jwb	why are they debranding the whole spin?	10:36
jwb	# Needed for spin debranding	10:37
jwb	sed -i -e 's/Fedora/Generic/g' /etc/fedora-release	10:37
jwb	that seems unnecessary if they've gotten Board approval...	10:37
jeremy	but it's needed prior to approval	10:38
f13	this also seems like just desire to get releng/board approval on the trademark, not to actually have us produce the spin.	10:38
jwb	why are we reviewing spins that don't have Board approval	10:38
f13	jwb: what's the proper order of approval?	10:39
jwb	Board, Spins SIG, Rel-Eng	10:39
jwb	yes?	10:39
f13	jwb: releng has to sign off on it technically, board has to sign off on it politically	10:39
jwb	kanarip, ping?	10:39
f13	one would think it starts as low as possible and works up, rather than the inverse.	10:39
jwb	then Spins SIG would be the first stop	10:39
kanarip	jwb, pong	10:39
f13	kanarip: question on the ordering of spin approvals	10:40
jwb	kanarip, for Spins... what is the order of approval?	10:40
kanarip	i just dropped a big note with a couple of exclamation marks to the spins list about the beta freeze	10:40
jwb	kanarip, should spins get approval in this order:	10:40
jwb	Spins SIG, Board, Rel-Eng	10:41
jwb	or?	10:41
kanarip	we as a sig are going to have to sign off on spins technically, they need board approval for trademark usage, then they can become features under the regular FESCo procedures	10:41
jwb	well, except FESCo delegated that last step to Rel-Eng	10:41
jwb	so seems Spins SIG, Board, Rel-Eng	10:41
kanarip	in this case, I can imagine FESCo will ask rel-eng/spin sig about anything related to releasing/spin concepts in that order?	10:41
kanarip	let me link you to the thread...	10:42
kanarip	http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2008-August/000048.html	10:42
zodbot	<http://tinyurl.com/6n2mmr> (at lists.fedoraproject.org)	10:42
f13	kanarip: is the process flow documented in the wiki somewhere, and has the spins sig already approved the BRoffice.org spin?	10:42
kanarip	this is what i said so it's basically also what the spin maintainers are going to have to live with *evilgrin*	10:42
kanarip	broffice.org.ks is not yet approved	10:43
jwb	ok, well that answers that	10:43
jwb	:)	10:43
kanarip	i'm planning on getting it through the process tomorrow	10:43
jwb	ok cool	10:43
f13	kanarip: side note, it seems the package that broffice.org wants to focus on isn't even in the distro yet	10:43
f13	kanarip: so I'm somewhat skeptical that the broffice.org spin will make it	10:43
jwb	sounds like we can come back to this next week or later...	10:43
kanarip	f13, note taken ;-)	10:43
kanarip	you guys have a mailing list at rel-eng@lists.fp.o as well, right?	10:44
f13	ok, the next three are spin approved	10:44
poelcat	feature freeze is 2008-08-19... do all spins have to be proposed/accepted by then?	10:44
f13	poelcat: yes	10:44
jwb	poelcat, yes	10:44
kanarip	poelcat, yes and they better have a feature page as well	10:44
f13	kanarip: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng	10:44
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/EducationSpin		10:45
* kanarip subscribed now		10:45
poelcat	kanarip: is there a wiki page summarizing all this?	10:45
kanarip	poelcat, /me diggs up the link	10:45
kanarip	poelcat, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/SpinSubmissionProcess	10:46
zodbot	<http://tinyurl.com/5pdzqf> (at fedoraproject.org)	10:46
kanarip	i see how the consecutive process is a little vague on that page btw	10:46
f13	ok, Education spin, I like it in general, I want to be clear on what it should be named (label of the iso and the name of the .iso file both)	10:47
kanarip	Education Math please	10:47
f13	also, I think if we're going to produce it, it should be mentioned in the release notes, and the documentation should be "why would somebody use this spin".	10:47
f13	I'm going to make these notes on the discussion page.	10:47
jwb	f13, agreed	10:47
mether	how is the educational spin related to http://wtogami.livejournal.com/27610.html	10:47
f13	otherwise (given the spin sig's pre-technical approval) I give this a +1	10:47
warren	mether: not related at all	10:48
jwb	mether, it's not?	10:48
kanarip	mether, something different entirely	10:48
mether	ok	10:48
jwb	+1	10:48
kanarip	warren, care to submit that to the spin sig nonetheless? ;-)	10:48
warren	I suppose I could.	10:48
kanarip	warren, at the very least it'll give you a central repository to maintain the kickstart in	10:48
kanarip	warren, that is, if you're not going for all the formal approval and releasing and all that	10:49
f13	any other thoughts about the education spin?	10:49
f13	spot: jeremy: votes ?	10:50
f13	wwoods: you too, any qa thoughts?	10:50
jeremy	the education spin could use a little bit of thought on naming just to avoid questions about how it overlaps with, eg, ltsp	10:50
wwoods	bluh. the test plans are terrible.	10:51
kanarip	jeremy, +1, that's why its education-math.ks, to be named "Education Math" as well	10:51
jeremy	kanarip: yeah, the feature page is the main place where the confusion exists I think	10:51
wwoods	I'm gonna need to ask some pointed questions in the Talk: sections of those pages, I think	10:51
kanarip	i'm not sure where i can document this properly but i've discussed it with the maintainer on-list, fwiw	10:52
f13	wwoods: are you willing to accept it as a featured spin of F10, provided you can work with them on the test plan?	10:52
wwoods	mostly "what exactly are you doing" and "how are you doing it" and "who is doing this 'cuz it's not me"	10:52
kanarip	jeremy, ok, /me dropping a note to the maintainer	10:52
* spot is +1		10:52
jeremy	but it's reasonable to me in general, so +1	10:52
wwoods	assuming that the owner is willing to accept responsibility for testing (or designate a tester), sure	10:53
f13	ok.	10:53
wwoods	I'll totally help work out a good test plan but we do not have the resources to test spins, nor would I be real happy about releasing untested code	10:53
f13	poelcat: Decision: releng approves the Education Math spin as a featured spin for F10. Feedback has been and will be provided in the feature page	10:54
kanarip	wwoods, this is one of the things they kinda accept as well as being on the receiving end of bugs for the remainder of the lifecycle	10:54
kanarip	it's implicit acceptance though, not explicit	10:55
wwoods	kanarip: exactly. I want explicit acceptance of that fact	10:55
f13	poelcat: also, once the tracker bug has been created for this feature, can we list said bug in the feature page?	10:55
wwoods	"Yes, I will test my own spin", followed by at least a broad definition of what testing will be performed	10:56
warren	regarding educational spin	10:56
warren	My live image right now is almost 1GB without all the educational apps installed.	10:56
warren	It kind of makes sense to do both in the same image	10:56
warren	but it is going to get freaking huge.	10:57
f13	warren: size might not matter if they're running on lab machines	10:57
warren	And maybe it is not a good idea to do both in the same image	10:57
warren	because there are a lot of users who want LTSP without the edu stuff.	10:57
f13	live images are just convenient as a medium to deliver	10:57
f13	ok, lets move on to the next spin.	10:58
warren	f13: in this case live ltsp server is convenient as the easiest way to install it	10:58
jwb	i need to bail for another meeting. as for XFCE and Games, i think both are probably OK but the pages need updating...	10:58
jwb	only 10% done?	10:58
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/GamesSpin		10:58
f13	jwb: thanks.	10:58
f13	warren: for places using ltsp sure	10:58
kanarip	is there a todo for these spins?	10:58
warren	f13: nod	10:58
f13	kanarip: can you expand upon that question?	10:59
kanarip	well, with 10% completion you'd think a Games SIG has a little todo list of things yet to do, but it's not on the feature page	10:59
f13	ah.	10:59
f13	Release alpha and beta releases in sync with Fedora 10 Run the Xfce spin through the QA team basic set of tests on i386 and x86_64 platforms Work with Fedora QA to ensure that we have sufficient coverage	10:59
f13	seems the Games spin suffers from a bad cut/paste job.	10:59
f13	mether ?	10:59
f13	it's also missing punctuation	11:00
f13	(nitpicky)	11:00
f13	kanarip: maybe Features/GamesSpin#Dependencies ?	11:00
zodbot	<http://tinyurl.com/5ld6tx> (at fedoraproject.org)	11:00
mether	f13: someone else is taking over. I will pass him the wiki page for updating it.	11:01
kanarip	f13, yikes, nice todo list ;-)	11:01
mether	basically we will reuse most of the ks file as it is for Fedora 10 too	11:01
mether	adjust the package content a bit but thats all	11:01
f13	* Test plan is woefully lacking information, as well as a cut/paste job from another feature. Links to QA tests would be good since you seem to indicate that there are some known.	11:02
f13	* Contingency plan should list all the places documentation about this spin should be removed in case we don't do it, so that we don't advertise a non-available spin.	11:02
f13	those are the two feedback items I have already	11:02
f13	other than that, I +1 this spin (though I hate the size of it)	11:03
mether	games are large. not much to do about that	11:03
kanarip	other then maybe splitting some -server packages out	11:04
f13	nod	11:04
jeremy	+1 with f13's things	11:04
mether	kanarip: yes, posted to list, I will be filing bug reports	11:04
kanarip	mether, yeah, i know, i'm dropping a mail on fedora-games to wake people up as well	11:04
wwoods	same - +1 with previous todos	11:05
f13	jwb already gave a +1	11:05
spot	+1	11:05
f13	spot: warren: ?	11:05
mether	kanarip: the only person who has been really responding is hans and he is on vacation. So I am mailing some folks offlist	11:05
kanarip	mether, sure	11:05
f13	well, everybody that has responded seems in favor. We'll approve this spin.	11:06
warren	+1 to f13's things	11:06
f13	poelcat: Decision: releng approves the Games spin as a featured spin for F10. Feedback has been and will be provided in the feature page	11:06
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora releng - Features/XfceSpin		11:07
f13	User Experience should probably substitute "matches" with "rivals"	11:08
f13	unless it's intended that XFCE will look like gnome, instead of being integrated with itself like gnome	11:08
f13	other than that I have the same feedback as the last spin, and give it a +1	11:08
jeremy	+1	11:09
kanarip	meaning, you need extension / updates to the feature page, right?	11:09
f13	right	11:09
f13	jwb also approved this spin	11:10
wwoods	I'm wwoods, and I approve this spin.	11:10
f13	heh	11:10
f13	warren: spot: lmacken: votes?	11:11
warren	+1	11:11
spot	+1	11:12
lmacken	+1	11:12
f13	ok, this passes too.	11:12
f13	alright	11:12
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Spins		11:13
mether	f13: xfce default look is intended to be just the same as gnome more or less. same theme, icons, background etc	11:13
f13	now that we have a set of spins approved for F10, should we produce them for Beta and put them on the torrent?	11:13
f13	seems reasonable to me, and can be done in parallel with the other composing	11:13
* jwb peeks in		11:14
jwb	yes. otherwise, what's the point of having them track via Feature pages?	11:15
kanarip	seems reasonable enough to me, but i'm wondering what happened to developer and electronic-lab?	11:15
kanarip	did i miss out on something or are they lacking feature pages or anything?	11:15
kanarip	*that you know of?	11:15
jwb	kanarip, i've not seen pages for either	11:15
kanarip	right	11:15
mether	kanarip: nobody created one.	11:16
kanarip	argh, as well btw	11:16
mether	there is a fedora electronics list if one wants to reach them	11:16
f13	mether: where 'theme/icons/backgrounds as gnome' you mean the ones Fedora sets for the Gnome desktop, not upstream gnome?	11:16
mether	f13: not upstream. Fedora customization	11:16
mether	Nodoka got ported and is the default Xfce theme	11:16
mether	within Fedora	11:16
f13	note that we should probably set an upper limit on how many spins we create, space considerations compose/test/sync considerations and such	11:17
f13	mether: gotcha, that could be made more clear in the documentation/release-notes/etc...	11:17
mether	alright, I will clarify that. Kinda assume that was known somehow	11:18
f13	mether: maybe if you already know what xfce is or intimately involved in the spin. Casual users or first timers wouldn't.	11:18
mether	right, i understand that. I will expand the docs section	11:19
f13	jeremy: spot: warren: thoughts on producing spin images for torrent for beta?	11:19
f13	jwb: think you might have time to do spin image creations for the beta?	11:19
warren	the spins we talked about in this meeting?	11:19
jeremy	definitely should	11:19
jwb	f13, if mmcgrath can get the guests up, yeah i think so	11:20
f13	jwb: we still have compose-x86	11:20
spot	seems sane to me, unless the responsible parties want to wait for some reason	11:20
jwb	just one?	11:20
f13	warren: and any others we approve before the Beta freeze	11:20
f13	jwb: there was also test3, not sure if we still have that	11:20
jwb	f13, maybe the requirements for the spin host have changed since i did it last...	11:20
f13	jwb: it can all be done from an x86_64 host	11:21
f13	unless we want to do live ppc images.	11:21
jwb	i thought we needed x86 and x86_64, both running rawhide with SELinux in permissive?	11:21
f13	nope, setarch is your friend.	11:21
warren	Fedora 10-based Live LTSP Server definitely wont be ready for beta.	11:21
jwb	f13, ok. so is compose-x86 what you are doing the regular composes on?	11:21
warren	well... I might be able to get it working, but higher priority items like actually getting new mkinitrd code done before beta...	11:22
warren	I might not make it.	11:22
kanarip	f13, test3 was down last time i checked	11:22
f13	jwb: I'll be doing shadow composes there, as well as on reducto internally	11:22
f13	kanarip: ok, that's fine.	11:22
jwb	f13, and the SELinux setup is right?	11:22
f13	jwb: I do believe it's set for permissive	11:22
f13	if not, we can adjust as necessary	11:22
kanarip	which is right	11:22
jwb	cool. if i can't get to the machine for some reason, i'll figure it out	11:22
f13	k	11:23
f13	jwb: we should take that for a test drive this week, ensure the spin ks's are in working order.	11:24
f13	kanarip: Can the spin sig coordinate on a branch or a tag to use for the Beta, so that we have something stable to pull from, but won't block further work?	11:24
f13	(in the spin-kickstarts git repo that is)	11:24
kanarip	f13, yes we can	11:25
f13	ok.	11:25
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Floor		11:25
kanarip	f13, actually i'll be branching but what the heck	11:25
f13	we're 25 minutes over, I know, but it was good to get through the spins we had.	11:25
f13	kanarip: yeah, either a branch or a tag, either works for us on the pulling side.	11:26
f13	poelcat: oh, Decision: Releng approves the XFCE spin as a featured spin for Fedora 10	11:26
kanarip	f13, awesome, a branch will allow me to delete the spins you do not have approved to compose	11:26
f13	looks like there is no open business, lets call it a meeting. Thanks all!	11:28

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