Websites/Meetings/2009-06-19

-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Who's here?		17:00
ricky	hiemanshu, markg85, mizmo, ianweller, mchua, onekopaka_away, nb, anybody I forgot: ping	17:00
nb	oh	17:01
* nb is here		17:01
* nb forgot about the meeting		17:01
* markg85 is here		17:01
* hiemanshu will be here in 5 mins		17:01
-!- mchua_ [n=mchua@host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has joined #fedora-websites		17:02
ricky	mchua_: Hey	17:02
-!- mchua [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-f7551ede865e4856] has quit Nick collision from services.		17:02
mchua_	hey, sorry I'm late; took a while to reconnect to wifi.	17:02
mchua_	can someone pastebin me a backlog?	17:02
* mchua_ pulls up task list		17:02
ricky	mchua_: http://dpaste.com/57245/	17:03
mchua_	thanks, ricky	17:03
-!- mchua_ is now known as mchua		17:03
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Release		17:03
ricky	Everything went pretty smoothly with the release	17:03
ricky	We tried a new way of working with git branches, which worked out really well  :-)	17:04
mizmo	hi	17:04
mchua	hey mizmo!	17:04
ricky	The one hitch was that there were some docs links that weren't right on release day, so we had to do last-minute fixing :-/	17:04
ricky	Next time, I'll send out "please check this website" emails to websites, docs, and design lists.	17:04
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Task List		17:05
* ricky hands it over to mchua		17:05
mchua	Websites/Tasks#The_list	17:05
mchua	so, people did check their email, and the list should be all up to date  :)	17:05
* mchua is new, and begs pardon for the many questions and the learning on the job		17:05
mchua	but before we all start getting busy again, i was wondering if the team had any targets for f12 - what do we want to accomplish this round?	17:06
mchua	reading through the list, a lot of things seemed scattered to me, I couldn't tell where it was all going, but I may be missing something	17:06
mchua	ricky, mizmo, ianweller, quaid, jonmasters... folks who have been around here longer, any thoughts of where we're headed?	17:07
* hiemanshu pardons for being late		17:07
ricky	My main goal is to get join.fp.o much more friendly. That'd be a big gain.	17:07
hiemanshu	ricky, i would rename that as Noob proof	17:07
hiemanshu	We have people asking us stuff in #fedora that can be found on the site	17:08
ricky	Ah	17:08
hiemanshu	for example people asked for links for x86_64	17:08
ricky	Having join info at fp.o would be nice also because it would be translated.	17:08
ricky	Ah, x86_64 downloads are another issue we'll have to think on for F12 :-/	17:09
markg85	ricky, isn't the only thing missing on j.fp.o a clear description of what those category's mean?	17:09
mizmo	this is really hard to do without understanding what exactly fedora is meant to be	17:09
* mchua agrees with n00bproof join.fp.o, but isn't sure exactly what that means		17:09
* giarc shows up late		17:09
ricky	mizmo: Sorry, which part were you referring to?	17:09
mizmo	ricky: are we a distro for developers or are we a 'consumer desktop' distro	17:10
ricky	I think n00bproof is too strong a term, even. I can see how a page like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join could be confusing to anybody.	17:10
mizmo	ricky: the difference between those two is a difference of a million miles in the approach to take for fpo	17:10
hiemanshu	ricky, we should have explain as though you were teaching a 8 year old	17:11
ricky	hiemanshu: Based on what you've seen in #fedora - what kind of person do you think wants x86_64 downloads?	17:11
hiemanshu	ricky, people who just want to try those	17:11
hiemanshu	The thing is the links are not on the get-fedora page, which should have been there	17:11
mchua	hrm.	17:12
hiemanshu	you need to click another button and people ignore that and waste more thing getting that question answered	17:12
hiemanshu	it should be made obvious to people	17:12
mizmo	hiemanshu: what kind of people are these? these are technical people no?	17:12
ricky	Can we profile each specific type of user into more categories than just "developer vs. consumer" ?	17:12
mchua	so, I'm not sure if this would be a useful metric at all, but Websites/Brainstorms#j.fp.o_experience was one thing I've been thinking of.	17:12
hiemanshu	mizmo, non technical	17:12
mchua	"one possible effectiveness metric for our website might be the number of contributions each release gets from new contributors (i.e. contributors whose first contributions were in that release) - in other words, "does join.fp.o work"?"	17:12
mizmo	hiemanshu: you're telling me a non-technical person insisted on x86_64?	17:12
hiemanshu	mizmo, yes	17:13
mizmo	hiemanshu: if i mentioned the word 'x86_64' to my mom, she would be like, 'huh?'	17:13
mizmo	hiemanshu: so on the scale of my mom <=> linus torvalds, what do you mean by "non-technical"? because i think we have very different definitions	17:13
hiemanshu	mizmo, people how have some idea or heard from friends want 64 bit OS just because they have a 64 bit proc	17:13
mizmo	hiemanshu: the very fact the person was talking to you in IRC right away tells me they are at least a little technical	17:13
mizmo	hiemanshu: this was in IRC, right?	17:14
hiemanshu	mizmo, non technical means who does not want to try to get this way around	17:14
hiemanshu	yes	17:14
mizmo	my mom doesn't know how to use IRC or even what it is	17:14
mizmo	hiemanshu: can you reword that? im not sure what you were trying to say	17:14
hiemanshu	there way*	17:14
ricky	I'm slightly confused at how somebody knows enough to be aware that there is an x86_64 version, but doens't click the "show me all options" link.	17:14
ricky	Maybe the wording is confusing? Should that link be "show me all options" instead of "show me all options on one page" ?	17:15
hiemanshu	mizmo, according to me a Non Technical user is one who knows he has a computer and a OS, but does not know what to when he has problems and comes to IRC	17:15
mizmo	well we could make the show me all options stuff more obvious	17:15
hiemanshu	ricky, below download link add looking for x86_64, find it here	17:15
mizmo	hiemanshu: okay that's a very big difference in my definition of a non-technical user, who is someone who has a computer perhaps but who doesn't know how to use IRC and just wants to try out linux	17:15
mchua	so... wait, hang on a second. before we get into the definition of a nontechnical user looking for x86_64 stuff, maybe we should figure out what improvements we want from the website this release.	17:16
ricky	hiemanshu: That would very possibly be confusing to somebody that doesn't know whether they need x86_64 or not though	17:16
mchua	hiemanshu, it sounds like you want to make sure folks looking for 64-bit stuff can find it.	17:16
markg85	Just a crazy idea but what if the download page in done in a question like way?	17:16
hiemanshu	Make every thing _obvious_ so we dont have people asking us stuff	17:16
markg85	for example:	17:16
giarc	if x86_64 is too hard for some users to find, couldn't we just add a lozenge like we have for KDE etc?	17:16
mizmo	mchua: i think the goal should be, for get.fpo, keep the newb-focused stuff the same, but make the 'more options' link way more obvious	17:16
markg85	Do you have more than 3GB of memory? (x64)	17:16
mizmo	giarc: if we added a lozenge for everything people have asked for a lozenge for, the lozenge list would be longer than richard stallman's beard	17:17
markg85	then download that x64	17:17
mizmo	markg85: i dont even know how much ram is in my laptop	17:17
mchua	it's hard to figure out what words like "obvious" and "intuitive" and "user friendly" mean.	17:17
markg85	mizmo, ^_^	17:17
ricky	giarc: That's another possibility, but it'd quickly get complicated, because then we'll have to account for KDE x86_64 live media too	17:17
hiemanshu	markg85, i586 with PAE supports 64GB ram	17:18
mizmo	mchua: okay make the more options link more prominent and eye catching, is that better than 'obvious' ? o_O	17:18
hiemanshu	RAM*	17:18
mizmo	hehe	17:18
giarc	mizmo, heh, sure...but we *can* continue to say no to all the other requests	17:18
ricky	Then there will be two links that match somebody that wants the KCD x86_64 live media.	17:18
markg85	hiemanshu, ... true	17:18
mchua	mizmo: way better.  :)	17:18
mizmo	giarc: what makes x86_64 more important than all the others?	17:18
giarc	ricky, had not thought of that	17:18
giarc	mizmo, nothing, just that seems to be a constant complaint	17:18
mchua	mizmo: making it prominent and eye catching so that people who want the non-default dl option will be able to find it, I reckon?	17:18
mizmo	giarc: the others are constant as well  :)	17:19
mizmo	mchua: yep	17:19
* markg85 would still like to point to this option: http://fedora.mageprojects.com/		17:19
hiemanshu	My aim to decrease people asking the same stuff on #fedora by making it Obvious	17:19
mchua	markg85 also had a cool idea with the questions-based page, which I'm guessing has a similar motivation... letting people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.	17:19
* giarc needs to run for 5 mins ( boss bellowing for me )		17:19
mizmo	markg85: huh? you're saying we shold go from having 2 links where people complain about not having others, to having one link? and how does that help exactly?	17:19
hiemanshu	and add a documentation link before download actually starts	17:19
mchua	hiemanshu so, reducing repetitive questions on #fedora. which you see the x86_64 thing crop up on a lot?	17:20
mizmo	i think it's okay to have a questions => link for the non-default download page, but not for the front download page	17:20
ricky	mchua: One general problem we've had with websites is that we don't have a clear decision making process. That's one other area I'd like to improve.	17:20
mchua	ricky: I'm starting to understand what you mean by that.  :)	17:20
hiemanshu	mchua, not only those, those are once in a while, but make them so obvious that an 8 year old can download it	17:20
mizmo	hiemanshu: we have documentation links before the download starts. see the grey 'resources' boxes next to each link?	17:20
* mchua frantically trying to summarize things people want to work on		17:21
mizmo	we provide the install guide, release notes, and a link to the full docs site	17:21
hiemanshu	mizmo, i mean people to get-fedora page and start downloading and overlook those resources	17:21
ricky	mchua: It's tough, because on one hand, we don't want any suggestion to instantly go live, and on the other hand, we don't want suggested changes to completely fall to the side.	17:21
mizmo	hiemanshu: that is on the get-fedora page.	17:21
markg85	mizmo, all i'm saying is that it would be a nice idea to have the most common options appear at the download page. If that's like my idea on that link or just 2 seperate links... both will do fine i think	17:21
markg85	separate	17:21
hiemanshu	mizmo, change them a little so that people will first click a link where it make it _obvious_ then another link to start download	17:22
mizmo	hiemanshu: that doesn't make sense to me, though, because you said that people were complaining about having to click another link to get to x86_64. but to me, it sounds like you are suggesting forcing everyone to click another link to get links to documentation?	17:23
mizmo	i guess i'm simply just not following	17:23
hiemanshu	mizmo, you have got me wrong	17:23
markg85	another think i would like a lot is just by looking at the user-agent of the user visiting the download page then select a default download architecture based on that	17:23
mizmo	it sounds like you are suggesting: get-fedora => documentation links => download link	17:23
mchua	okay, uh... hang on. I want to see if I'm hearing everyone correctly here.	17:23
mchua	mizmo wants to help people who want the non-default dl option find the non-default dl-option by making it more prominent and eye-catching.	17:23
markg85	the user agent tells the architecture so why not use that valuable info	17:23
mchua	markg85 wants to help people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.	17:23
mchua	hiemanshu wants to reduce repetitive questions on #fedora (example: x86_64) by making resources that 8-year-olds could use.	17:23
hiemanshu	get-fedora =>Docs link =>15 sec delay to download	17:23
mizmo	markg85: how do you know the user is downloading the image for the same computer they have the browser open on?	17:24
mchua	ricky wants to have a clear decision making process on the websites team that balances ease-of-experimentation with moderation to make sure changes are good ones.	17:24
mizmo	markg85: in many situations someone is trying to download a linux image for a machine that is broken.	17:24
mchua	and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on.  :) and raise the number of new contributors in this release through improving the website.	17:24
ricky	I'm kind of against going by the user agent. That can cause major confusion if I go to the library to download Fedora, for example	17:24
markg85	mizmo, well the same can be asked for the situation as it currently stands. you just don't know	17:24
mizmo	markg85: right which is why it's better to have the user select than auto select it for them and get it wrong.	17:25
* mchua wonders if we agree on the purpose and audience of the design details we're debating about...		17:25
hiemanshu	mizmo, where there is a download now button add another button download x86_64	17:25
mizmo	markg85: if the page changes based on the machine you're on, then it becomes more difficult for folks like hiemanshu to help people because they may not even be looking at the same page anymore	17:25
mizmo	mchua: i think we really need to start there	17:25
hiemanshu	and below that why x86_64	17:25
markg85	mizmo, true	17:26
mizmo	i do not want to add more buttons to the main get fedora page.	17:26
mizmo	there are enough as it is.	17:26
mizmo	we worked really hard to simplify it down to where it's at now.	17:26
mizmo	i think the problem with get fedora	17:26
mizmo	is that it's difficult for more technical users to use.	17:26
ricky	If the x86_64 link on get-fedora is as prominent as the 32 bit one, you will almost definitely get new questions in #fedora asking whether people need 32 bit or 64 bit.	17:26
ricky	I've seen that myself back when get-fedora was http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all	17:26
mizmo	so i think our goal for f12 should be to address the 'view more options' so that it's easier to find for those users.	17:26
hiemanshu	ricky, that why i said a link below to a page why x64	17:26
markg85	mizmo, my issue with getting f11 x64 was that it's currently guesswork to even find it	17:27
mchua	uh... folks, before we start talking about specific implementation ideas, can we take a step back and breathe a little and figure out where everyone is coming from?	17:27
mizmo	markg85: exactly. so we shold make the full page of 'other options' easier for you to find	17:27
ricky	hiemanshu: Nobody ever clicks those links. If anybody bothered to click the install guide linnk first, all their questions would be answered.	17:27
mchua	I'm feeling a bit like I'm watching ships pass each other in the night right now...	17:27
mizmo	markg85: eg we could have a button that says, 'View more options (x86_64, ppc, KDE, and more)'	17:27
* giarc is back, ( june birthdays here at work... )		17:27
mchua	hey, giarc. discussion is a bit scattered at the moment. I'm trying to keep up with all the threads.  :)	17:28
hiemanshu	ricky, yeah that could be one thing, people just dont want to read	17:28
ricky	mizmo: Ooh, that's a good idea.	17:28
markg85	mizmo, that's yet another possible idea	17:28
mizmo	ricky: yeh we could do them in fine print	17:28
ricky	Yeah.	17:28
mizmo	ricky: so people looking for the keyword 'x86_64' would skim and it would jump out at them	17:28
ricky	As it is, I'm not crazy about grouping KDE and PPC together  :-(	17:29
mizmo	ricky: then we avoid having a matrix of the combinatorial options on the front page, but at tthe same time the keywords the technical users are working for are there	17:29
giarc	mizmo, sort of like a tag cloud?	17:29
ricky	Yes, that's good.	17:29
hiemanshu	Yes thats better	17:29
mizmo	giarc: sort of. i wouldn't do the different font sizes the way a tag cloud is though.	17:29
mizmo	giarc: they should be consistent	17:29
markg85	a reason why people don't look at the install guide (didn't look at it myself so just guessing here) is that there is so much text in it that it scares people away	17:29
ricky	I agree with markg85	17:29
giarc	mizmo, right, ok	17:29
mizmo	people don't want to read text on get.fpo. they want to get f.  :)	17:29
hiemanshu	markg85, +1	17:29
mizmo	any solution that involves users reading more text = FAIL	17:29
hiemanshu	people hate to READ	17:30
ricky	Here's a sad fact:	17:30
markg85	i personally always move away from pages that have way to much text :P	17:30
ricky	The table of contents of our install guide: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ is about as long as the entire openSUSE Live CD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_Live_CD	17:30
markg85	specially if they start with a bunch of notices at the top	17:30
mizmo	yet people keep propposing we add more text ot the screen  :)	17:30
ricky	And their install guide is filled with screenshots too.	17:30
ricky	I want an install guide like that  :-)	17:30
mizmo	ricky: that's insane	17:30
ricky	(And here's their DVD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_DVD_Install)	17:30
hiemanshu	ricky, i could try that	17:30
ricky	To anybody interested on working on something like that: Please make sure to talk to the docs team first	17:31
ricky	I wouldn't want to start any documentation projects without letting them know and hearing their thoughts on it first.	17:31
hiemanshu	ricky, i ll do this part, i ll write the install Docs with Screens	17:31
giarc	ricky, wow, that is striking	17:31
mizmo	the docs team is planning a new system for displaying the docs	17:32
markg85	ricky, well.. you can make all the screenshots prior to making the documentation..(or not?)	17:32
hiemanshu	markg85, you can	17:32
markg85	hiemanshu, if i install fedora i might just do that :D	17:32
ricky	markg85: Making the screenshots shouldn't be an issue, the main thing would be communicating to the docs team about this	17:32
hiemanshu	markg85, we can take this up together. what say?	17:32
markg85	hiemanshu, ask me again after my exams in just over one week	17:33
mizmo	okay so, so far our goals for f12 are:	17:33
mizmo	- make get.fpo better for technical users	17:33
ricky	mizmo: Do you know if they're looking at changing the format of the docs, or just the infrastructure for the docs site?	17:33
mizmo	- makes docs.fpo better	17:33
mizmo	ricky: not sure  :( i would imagine both	17:33
ricky	Hopefully  :-)	17:33
mizmo	do we have any other goals for f12	17:34
mizmo	i have one  :)	17:34
mizmo	- improve www.fpo. it's a bit sparse right now. we could have a bit more information on what fedora is and why you'd want to use it. a section with profiles of real fedora users with picutres	17:34
markg85	mizmo, just wondering.. are there plans for a new decoration theme in fedora 12?	17:34
-!- mchua_ [n=mchua@nat/redhat/x-ffcdfe22a665039d] has joined #fedora-websites		17:35
ricky	- Get a decision-making process that we can stick to  :-)	17:35
hiemanshu	mizmo, a user gallery	17:35
mizmo	markg85: what do you mean by decoration theme?	17:35
markg85	mizmo, a nodoka replacement?	17:35
mizmo	hiemanshu: yeh exactly! a gallery of real fedora users, where you can learn how fedora changed their life kind of thing	17:35
* mchua_ wonders if she got disconnected, and sheepishly asks for another backlog.		17:35
mizmo	markg85: not afaik	17:35
* mchua_ vows to get a proxy this weekend.		17:35
ricky	mchua_: http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/2009-06-19.log	17:35
giarc	ricky, +1	17:35
mchua_	Thanks again, ricky.	17:36
-!- mchua [n=mchua@host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has quit Nick collision from services.		17:36
-!- mchua_ is now known as mchua		17:36
mizmo	okay so we have 4 goals so far	17:36
markg85	mizmo, oke. i really would like to see something else other then that blue stuff	17:36
mizmo	1) get.fpo	17:36
mizmo	2) www.fpo	17:36
mizmo	3) docs.fpo	17:36
mizmo	4) decision process	17:36
hiemanshu	mizmo, something like where people can add their own images and say something	17:36
ricky	mizmo: Also join.fp.o  :-)	17:36
hiemanshu	mizmo, 5) User Gallery	17:36
mizmo	markg85: okay but right now we're having a websites meeting. i suggest bringing that up on the design team list	17:36
ricky	One thing I'd like everybody to keep in mind is that everything we do has to be translatable.	17:37
markg85	mizmo, ^_^ sorry, for me websites is designing as well	17:37
ricky	I know it can feel limiting at times, but I really don't want to move back to relying on things that are 100% English-only.	17:37
hiemanshu	ricky, is there a Geo IP redirector?	17:38
mizmo	ricky: has anything we've proposed so far been problematic for translation?	17:38
mizmo	ricky: or is just the timing so we can get translations out a concern?	17:38
ricky	mizmo: I haven't sen anything yet other than RSS feeds.	17:39
mizmo	k	17:39
mchua	current list o' goal-ness: get.fpo, www.fpo, docs.fpo, decision process, user gallery, join.fpo, translation.	17:39
ricky	News is a tough one. I'd love to have news on the site, but I wouldn't want english-only news front and center on the Chinese home page.	17:39
* markg85 note to self: install fedora 11 in dutch and see how much is really dutch		17:39
mizmo	any other ideas? or should we move on to prioritization?	17:39
hiemanshu	mizmo, Geo IP redirector	17:40
mchua	+1 prioritization	17:40
ricky	hiemanshu: That's probably an infrastructure team thing  :-)	17:40
hiemanshu	thats with the websites right? must be wrong :P	17:40
ricky	We try to keep the pages totally static so that it's a breeze on release day though.	17:40
mizmo	i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints	17:41
ricky	mizmo: +1 to moving on prioritization	17:41
hiemanshu	ricky, auto redirect to the local language, is it there or needs to be implemented?	17:41
ricky	17:41:06 < mizmo> i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints	17:41
mizmo	decision process too	17:41
ricky	hiemanshu: That's implemented in that if you set your language priorities in your browser, you'll see the right one automatically.	17:41
mchua	mizmo: maybe we should have everyone reorder the list the way they think it should be prioritised	17:41
mchua	and see where we end up	17:41
hiemanshu	mizmo, make the goals list and we know how to prioritize them	17:42
mchua	hiemanshu: get.fpo	17:42
mchua	www.fpo	17:42
mchua	docs.fpo	17:42
mchua	decision process	17:42
mchua	user gallery	17:42
mchua	join.fpo	17:42
ricky	Here's my tohught: get.fpo, decision process, docs.fpo, join.fpo, www.fpo, user gallery (and translation is something that happens throughout)	17:43
mchua	translation	17:43
ricky	**thought	17:43
mchua	(that was a list, not my ordering)	17:43
mizmo	ricky: i'd bump www a bit higher just because of its prominence	17:43
mizmo	maybe swap docs and www	17:43
mchua	my ordering is join.fpo	17:43
mchua	decision process	17:43
mchua	get.fpo	17:43
mchua	docs.fpo	17:43
mchua	www.fpo	17:43
mchua	user gallery	17:43
mchua	translation	17:43
ricky	mizmo: I'm trying to think in terms of "what does a user want to do that's currently hard for them to do"	17:43
hiemanshu	get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, join.fpo, user gallery	17:44
mchua	markg85, thoughts?	17:44
markg85	my order: get.fpo www.fpo join.fpo user gallery decision process	17:44
markg85	translation	17:44
mchua	I think we have a clear front-runner with get.fpo.	17:44
ricky	I see "get documentation/help" as a more important task than "find out what Fedora is" for now, although maybe I can be convinced otherwise  :-)	17:44
mchua	does anyone other than me think something is more important than get.fpo in terms of work-on priority?	17:45
mchua	I'm *totally* willing to be convinced of this.	17:45
* giarc needs to run, can some one post a log of the meeting so I can catch up?		17:45
ricky	giarc: Will do, thanks for coming!	17:45
markg85	and why. get and www are identical to me. join.fpo is slightly more annoying	17:45
giarc	thanks ricky	17:45
ricky	mizmo: www is talking about the main page more, while get is specifically about the get-fedora page	17:45
ricky	join.fp.o and docs.fp.o are both thing that span over into a bunch of other groups in the Fedora Project.	17:46
hiemanshu	ricky, my order is in what users actually do	17:46
mizmo	ricky: if the front page of fpo isn't appealing, you wont have people needing to get help with it	17:46
mizmo	:)	17:47
hiemanshu	mizmo, i dont think most of the people would even join, you might get people to docs and not join	17:47
ricky	I guess, but I don't really see our front page as the way that most people find out what Fedora is right now (although that could be seen as a problem that we need to fix)	17:47
-!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who@fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-websites		17:47
* mchua notes that ultimately, people will vote with their feet, so the stuff that happens is the stuff individuals are going to want to work on themselves		17:47
* mchua looks back at votes		17:47
ricky	Rather, I think most people get directed to fp.o through things like news sites, or other things which is where they first find out exactly what Fedoar is.	17:47
ricky	**Fedora	17:48
markg85	people please know the first impressions rule	17:48
markg85	they are what makes a person join or leave	17:48
mizmo	ricky: it is the 'official' definition of what fedora is though (or at least it should be) because we can't control what news media outlets explain us as (and sometimes they get it quite wrong)	17:49
markg85	right now (just being fair) my first impressions with both the fedora site and distribution are far from good and i'm in this world for a few years	17:49
ricky	True. I don't think I'm fully clear on exactly what we're trying to do with the front page	17:49
mchua	I agree with markg85; first impressions are important.	17:49
markg85	fedora runs good one just ONE pc here (and there are roughly 6)	17:49
hiemanshu	To tell the truth fp.o just isnt attractive	17:49
mchua	So, I tallied up all our priority lists.	17:49
mchua	get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and join.fpo seem more or less on par... not many people incredibly excited about translation or user gallery, but that could be a small-team-takes-it-on thing.	17:49
markg85	so making that very abstract it means that fedora runs as intended on 1 out of every 7 pc's!! that's not good at all	17:50
mchua	all these are separate pieces - separate pieces that interact, but separate pieces.	17:50
mizmo	ricky: well right now the front page is kind of bare. visiting it, you don't really get an idea of why you would want to use fedora or what it can do for you	17:50
ricky	markg85: That is probably a development issue and maybe not websites though.	17:50
mizmo	ricky: i'd like it to be more like the fedora community tour page	17:50
ricky	I'd love to have something like that.	17:50
mizmo	https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/pages/tour/	17:51
mchua	question: does anybody want to run point on the fp.o page?	17:51
markg85	ricky, i know but that issue ends up by a person going to the fedora website	17:51
mizmo	we break it down and explain what YOU can do with it	17:51
markg85	and that's where they find... not what they are looking for: answers	17:51
ricky	All right, so I'll agree with www being before docs then  :-)	17:51
* Cheshirc wanders in		17:52
ricky	So what's next now that we have some priorities? Should we start discussing each in detail and getting some research into what we need?	17:52
mchua	my impression of current order: get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo in that order. nobody really picking up on translation or user gallery.	17:52
mizmo	sounds right mchua	17:52
mchua	well, i think we need to figure out who's going to run point on each thing.	17:52
markg85	and please all of you look with a objective view at fp.o and tell me what you see	17:52
mizmo	mchua: well except i think translation is a thread that runs across all of them	17:52
ricky	mchua: Translation isn't so much of a task on its own, just something to keep in mind throughout.	17:52
mchua	because right now we have N cooks trying to make N pots of soup.	17:52
markg85	what i see: a superman packager !!! and a very short description of fedora	17:53
mchua	ok, then someone should be on point for making sure translation is incorporated into all projects.	17:53
mchua	else we'll drop translation and then look back at f12 and go *wap* why did we forget?	17:53
mizmo	ricky: do you have those top 10 tasks for www.fpo handy somewhere?	17:53
mizmo	i vaguely remember them being on your fedora people site?	17:53
ricky	Let me find those	17:53
mchua	the problem i've seen here in the brief time I've been around is that people keep colliding into each others work	17:53
hiemanshu	mizmo, one immediate thing is to update MediaWiki	17:54
mchua	http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/fedora-web	17:54
mchua	mizmo: ^	17:54
ricky	Ah, cool.	17:54
ricky	THanks	17:54
ricky	hiemanshu: That's kind of a separate issue that will have to be discussed with Infrastructure	17:54
ricky	But like I told you, it's not very likely unless there is a serious pressing need.	17:54
markg85	mizmo, could you tell me what you currently like on fp.o?	17:54
mchua	markg85, hiemanshu, can we hang on a moment until we figure out who's working on what?	17:55
mizmo	so our get.fpo goal we're prioritized highly today	17:55
hiemanshu	ricky, following the Fedora rule, latest and greatest	17:55
* ricky certainly likes get-fedora. It's one of the pages that we've put the most work/polish into.		17:55
mizmo	is #8 on the fedora-web list	17:55
* markg85 waits...		17:55
mchua	thanks markg85  :)	17:55
mizmo	we've got #1 on that list done	17:55
mizmo	#2 is our docs.fpo item from today	17:55
* hiemanshu sits next to markg85		17:55
mizmo	#3 is the www.fpo item, and #5 is also	17:55
mizmo	#4 is join .fpo	17:55
mizmo	#6 - what's happening in fedora - we haven't really identified today so we can drop it in priority	17:56
mchua	even after looking at the old list, I'd go by the ordering we chose before. It seems more... pertinent to right now.	17:56
mizmo	#9 fedora bling - we didnt bring that up - but i think it's good too. if we had something like spreadfirefox.com but for fedora	17:56
mizmo	mchua: i think #8 in the old list needs to be #1 now though	17:56
hiemanshu	mizmo, fedora shop?	17:56
ricky	Yeah.	17:57
mchua	mizmo: yeah, I meant the one we just did in this channel with get.fp.o as #1	17:57
mizmo	mchua: oh i agree we should stick with the ordering we came up with today	17:57
mizmo	mchua: sorry i misunderstood ya	17:57
ricky	hiemanshu: Hehe, that's another thing that has been discussed with fedora marketing, but not much luck  :-( I'd love to see the efforts for that start up again	17:57
mchua	the old list has tonnes of resources though which is great	17:57
hiemanshu	ricky, i can help push up people	17:57
ricky	hiemanshu: spevack is one person that I remember heading that up, he can probably get you in touch with whoever has the latest on that.	17:58
mizmo	i would like to take point on get.fpo	17:58
mchua	so our ordering from the discussion just now is get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery.	17:58
hiemanshu	mchua, user gallery one step up please	17:58
ricky	Decision process is still a tough one that will be a part of everything else  :-(	17:59
mchua	hiemanshu: get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, user gallery, and translation. though things won't be done unless someone steps up like mizmo just did for get.fp.o.	17:59
mchua	+1 to mizmo taking point on get.fp.o, btw.  :)	18:00
ricky	Mind if we discuss some of the properties of a good decision making process for a moment?	18:00
mchua	can we have other people step up to take point on some other stuff first?	18:00
hiemanshu	mchua, i am a PHP guy and go the user gallery	18:00
mchua	hiemanshu: you want to take point on the user gallery?	18:00
hiemanshu	do the*	18:00
ricky	I'll gladly take docs.fp.o and decision process	18:00
mizmo	good decision making process != saying yes to every suggestion, because that's like making dinner by dumping out the contents of your fridge into a pot.	18:00
hiemanshu	mchua, yes	18:00
markg85	mchua, i'm joist going for www.fp.o and get.fp.o	18:01
markg85	just*	18:01
hiemanshu	i ll help markg85 with www.fp.o	18:01
mchua	sweet. okay, we have mizmo on get.fp.o, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o and working with mizmo on get.fp.o, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, which is perfect because I wanted to work on join.fp.o.	18:01
mizmo	id like to take the make www.fpo have a section like the fedora community tour section task but its a subtask of www.fpo	18:01
markg85	hiemanshu, add your name to it on the wiki plz	18:01
mchua	nobody is doing translation yet.	18:01
ricky	Some properties I desire of a decision making process:	18:01
hiemanshu	markg85, where?	18:01
ricky	1) Not a dictatorship  :-)	18:02
markg85	hiemanshu, brainstorms?	18:02
ricky	2) Bad ideas (for some definition of bad) get rejected	18:02
ricky	3) Good ideas (for some definition of good) don't get sidelined	18:02
* markg85 would like the time now		18:02
* mchua checks list: mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone."		18:02
mizmo	backseat driving is undesirable i think	18:02
mchua	markg85: it's 2:04pm, or 18:04 UTC if I did math correctly.	18:03
ricky	The definitions of good and bad will be deeply tied into what the goal and the target audience of the website is.	18:03
mchua	2:04 for me in Boston, EST.	18:03
* markg85 is not pointing to the real time :P		18:03
* mchua is confused		18:03
hiemanshu	23:34 here	18:03
* markg85 means the time to propose something here		18:03
mizmo	ricky: which we still haven't really solidifed on  :(	18:03
ricky	markg85: Propose away.	18:03
markg85	oke	18:04
ricky	mizmo: Yeah. It's important that we do so that we have a basis for saying yes and no to things instead of bickering endlessly :-/	18:04
markg85	mizmo, ricky mchua hiemanshu : i would like you all to go to fp.o and get.fp.o and write down what you really like. because the rest is what has to change or go	18:04
* hiemanshu will be back in 10 mins		18:05
markg85	personally i like nothing on www.fp.o and just a few things in get.fp.o	18:05
ricky	That's kind of subjective.	18:05
ricky	I'd rather have the purpose/audience in mind for the website before doing something like ths.	18:05
mchua	markg85: +1 - I'll do it, can you shoot out an email to the list reminding people? some folks couldn't make this meeting but would probably chime in.	18:05
markg85	ricky, it is but if we combine all our opinions ^_^	18:05
mizmo	i dont think thats useful if we dont know who our audience is	18:05
mchua	ricky: anything we do would be subjective; I don't think it's going to get us everything, but I think it's a good starting point.	18:05
mizmo	we should rather, for each target audience user type, summarize what that type of user would like vs wouldn't like about the site	18:06
ricky	I'd rather phrase the like/dislike thing as: X user in our target audience will have a hard time doing Y task in our website's purpose.	18:06
mizmo	if www.fpo was targeted for me, it would be mostly blank	18:06
ricky	Instead of "X is ugly, I don't like it"	18:06
mchua	we're also users. we're not the only users, and we're a special weird involved type of user, but we're users, and this will also help us get our assumptions on the table.	18:06
hiemanshu	mizmo, as i said, make it so anyone who reads likes it	18:06
mizmo	the user classifications we could target	18:06
ricky	I think that is totally impossible  :-)	18:06
mchua	besides, if markg85 is running with this, then that's his prerogative.  :)	18:07
mizmo	(1) i've never used linux before. i don't know what IRC is. i heard i should try it because it would make bill gates cry.	18:07
markg85	i just think this would be a very nice point to start with	18:07
mizmo	(2) i've used linux before, but not fedora. you'll have to win me over.	18:07
markg85	mchua, yes i will run this	18:07
mizmo	(3) i've been using fedora 4eva and it's awesome!	18:07
mizmo	i think depending on which section we've got, we'd care about 1, 2, or 3 in a different priority order	18:07
mchua	mizmo, ricky - well, markg85 isn't saying "everybody has to do this," he's saying "if you could do this please, it would help me think about some things I might not be considering just yet."	18:07
mizmo	for www.fpo we would care more about 1 & 2	18:08
ricky	Maybe what we need is a feedback form or email.	18:08
ricky	Like: Let us know what you're doing with Fedora at blah@fp.o	18:08
markg85	mchua, i will add that task to.. myself on the tasklist	18:08
ricky	Because I have absolutely no idea what types of users are	18:08
mchua	if people want to do that, they can do that. markg85 was telling us what he's planning on doing with the project he offered to run point on.	18:08
hiemanshu	We should have something on first page like, here for the first time, back again	18:09
mizmo	im not going to do it because i dont think my opinion is very useful	18:09
mizmo	:(	18:09
hiemanshu	i ll do it	18:09
mchua	similarly, if mizmo asks for a hand on get.fp.o, she'll ask us to pitch in, and ricky was asking for input on decisionmaking a few minutes ago and people were chiming in...	18:09
markg85	I would say: first ask it on the websites list. if the feedback is to diverse there (thus not useful) then move it to a more populated list like jsut fedora	18:09
hiemanshu	and help markg85 with that	18:09
mizmo	the problem is that	18:10
mizmo	if you dont think about the audience you are trying to reach	18:10
mizmo	and you just randomly ask people	18:10
mizmo	your results are going to be way skewed	18:10
mizmo	and probably not in a way you would want them to be if you had actually thought about what audience you want to reach first	18:10
mizmo	if you know the audience you want to reach, then you can survey THEM	18:10
ricky	I don't think we're applying the soon-to-be extant decision making process here.	18:10
mizmo	and weigh the results appropriately based on who answered the question	18:10
* ricky agrees with mizmo		18:10
mizmo	and how high on your priority list that user class is	18:10
mizmo	eg	18:10
hiemanshu	mizmo, +1	18:11
mchua	I agree, and I also think that this shouldn't stop markg85 from moving forward.	18:11
mizmo	if linus torvalds tells me he thinks get.fpo sucks	18:11
mizmo	but i want to target people who have never used linux before	18:11
markg85	mizmo, i agree and disagree	18:11
mizmo	than linus' opinion is probably not something i should weigh as heavily as the girl walking down the sidewalk	18:11
mizmo	who doesnt use linux	18:11
markg85	mizmo, you just have to start somewhere	18:11
mchua	markg85 + 1	18:11
mizmo	markg85: you have to know where you are going before you can start walking there	18:11
mizmo	if you head off without a map you dont know if you're going to end up anywhere useful and how much time you are going to waste going the wrong way	18:12
ricky	I just don't want to have flamewars based on subjective opinions start up. Please  :-)	18:12
mchua	mizmo + 1 also. I think the "know what you're aiming for" thing is a very good thing. I also think that knowing that *while* starting means you'll eventually figure it out.	18:12
markg85	mizmo, the users don't mather for me because every single one will do fine. users from websites: fine. users from documentation: fine.. anyone is fine so there is no real target	18:12
mchua	or rather, that if you know you don't know, and start moving with that in mind, you'll soon know.	18:12
mizmo	huh	18:12
* mchua blinks, reboots mel.speaks_english module		18:13
mizmo	markg85: if our target was beginning linux users, the resulting design would be a million miles away from a design primarily targeted for experience technical users	18:13
ricky	I think we have some fundamentally conflicting opinions about what information to use and what information to discard thoguh.	18:13
ricky	**though	18:13
-!- onekopaka_away is now known as onekopaka		18:13
onekopaka	hello.	18:13
mizmo	i mean heres the thing right	18:13
* mchua has to leave in 15 minutes.		18:13
mizmo	what i do, is design UI	18:13
mizmo	and there's a process to it	18:13
mchua	hey onekopaka - you came in the middle of a somewhat frantic meeting.  :)	18:14
mizmo	and one of the essential things you have to identify up front, is who is this UI for	18:14
markg85	mizmo, you are right but right now i see fp.o as (boldly said) useless. so in my point of view anything and any input will do fine	18:14
mizmo	if i went and designed UIs willy-nilly asking my friends what they thought about it, i would be making a big mistake	18:14
onekopaka	mchua: I ran from my school bus home.	18:14
onekopaka	to home*	18:14
markg85	mizmo, once there is some input from one list (websites) you can choose to get further with other groups or bast "the new design" on just the input from the websites list	18:14
markg85	hey onekopaka	18:14
* onekopaka catches up		18:14
mizmo	markg85: the reason www.fpo sucks RIGHT NOW is because that is the approach that has been taken in the past - it doesn't matter	18:15
ricky	What if the input is wrong? What do we do then?	18:15
mchua	onekopaka: we're talking about the projects we want to work on for f12 - in order, they're get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery.	18:15
hiemanshu	Make some assumptions, and work out the best we can	18:15
mizmo	markg85: but what i am telling you right now as a professional design practicioner is that is the wrong approach, a good design hinges on identifying and prioritizing your target users	18:15
markg85	mizmo, then where do you suggest i gather feedback?	18:15
mizmo	markg85: it depends who you have identified as your target users!	18:15
mchua	onekopaka: right now it's mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone."	18:15
mizmo	markg85: if your target users are beginners, then you go to where you can talk to beginners and ask them	18:15
mizmo	markg85: if your target users are experienced hackers, then you go and ask experienced hackers what they think	18:16
markg85	mizmo, that's the biggest problem of fedora.. there isn't one group!	18:16
onekopaka	yep	18:16
mizmo	markg85: if you dont think about *who* you are talking to, you're going to get way skewed results	18:16
mizmo	markg85: that's right there are multiple groups,	18:16
mizmo	(1) never used linux before	18:16
hiemanshu	you make a general idea of stuff and continue	18:16
mizmo	(2) have some tech experience, used another linux	18:16
mizmo	(3) current fedora users	18:16
mizmo	what we should decide	18:16
mizmo	is in what order do we care about these users	18:16
mizmo	for each project we are talking about taking on	18:16
mizmo	then	18:16
markg85	oke stop :P	18:16
mizmo	you can ask epople in each category, but weigh them appropriately	18:16
hiemanshu	we care for 1 first and then 2	18:17
mizmo	hiemanshu: i agree	18:17
* ricky agrees as well		18:17
mizmo	hiemanshu: for www.fpo we care about 1, then 2	18:17
markg85	mizmo, then lets say i want to target beginning linux users. users that have installed fedora but not users that haven't used any linux ever yet	18:17
mizmo	hiemanshu: for docs.fpo, we care a little less about 1, because if they don't use it they don't need help yet	18:17
* mchua looks at the time, and now has to leave in 10 minutes. Can we move towards wrapping up?		18:17
ricky	Perhaps for join.fp.o, we care more about 2 and 3.	18:17
mizmo	markg85: then talk to beginner users and ask them what they care about www.fpo	18:17
mchua	can any of this discussion go to list, or to next week?	18:17
markg85	mizmo, so where do i start then and that's probably the biggest group :P	18:17
hiemanshu	ricky, i would say 3 for join.fpo	18:17
ricky	mchua: I think it might be good to get some of these disagreements worked out - we'll post logs to list later if you have to go	18:18
markg85	mizmo, i did on my school with 5 persons and all where ashamed that opensource software brings that crap out.. and they said that because it wasn't fully working on any of there pc's	18:18
mizmo	markg85: thats neither here nor there, though	18:18
ricky	OK, so now that we have some groups and some priorities, where do we go from here?	18:19
hiemanshu	ricky, Feedback	18:19
hiemanshu	from users	18:19
markg85	finally we are moving a bit	18:19
mizmo	i dont know if i can meet next week because ill be in berlin	18:19
mizmo	but what i will try to do	18:19
mizmo	is have a summary of get.fpo tasks to usability test	18:20
mizmo	and maybe some initial test results	18:20
ricky	Cool.	18:20
ricky	mizmo: For the rest of us, can you give some advice on how to go about getting these tests/feedback?	18:20
mizmo	maybe a good systematic approach that you can adapt as you've got resources	18:21
mizmo	is have a print out of the page(s) you're working on	18:21
mizmo	and show it to three never-used-linux-before people (maybe parents, maybe friends, maybe co-workers)	18:21
mizmo	then take some screenshots and make them available somewhere maybe on the wiki	18:22
mizmo	and go into different tech IRC channels and try to grab 3 people who are familiar with linux	18:22
onekopaka	Mozilla's feedback system, Hendrix, seems like a good tool for collecting feedback	18:22
mizmo	and then go into #fedora-devel to get feedback from experience hackers	18:22
mizmo	and for the page you're working on	18:22
mizmo	come up with a list of questions to get feedback on	18:22
mizmo	eg for get.fpo i'm going to ask	18:22
mizmo	'if you wanted to download x86_64, what would you click on?'	18:22
mizmo	'if you were going to install fedora on your machine today, which link would you click on?'	18:23
mizmo	have at least 5 questoins to ask and note any other stuff the people you talk to note about the page	18:23
mizmo	onekopaka: ive not heard of it	18:23
onekopaka	mizmo: yep. http://hendrix.mozilla.org/	18:23
hiemanshu	make the default page for Mozilla a feedback page	18:23
onekopaka	mizmo: and the source is in mozilla CVS in mozilla/webtools/hendrix	18:24
* mizmo takes a look		18:24
mizmo	onekopaka: i think having osmething like that for the website would be good (altohugh we already get messages to webmaster@fpo)	18:24
mizmo	but here we're talking more about very targeted feedback	18:24
mizmo	in response to questions/tasks we come up with rather than open format	18:24
onekopaka	yeah	18:24
onekopaka	but feedback in general	18:24
ricky	Yeah, webmaster@ email is usually not very feedback-related at the moment.	18:25
onekopaka	it's more complaining about servers that aren't ours	18:26
ricky	Heh	18:26
* onekopaka curses underneath his breath about those emails		18:26
ricky	OK, so tasks for next week:	18:26
mizmo	hehe	18:26
ricky	Can all task owners strat a thread on the mailing list stating their task and actoins	18:27
ricky	Then they can post updates on that thread?	18:27
mizmo	sure	18:27
hiemanshu	ricky, i am new here so might need some help :P	18:27
onekopaka	hiemanshu: you're on the fedora-websites-list, right?	18:27
hiemanshu	just joined in	18:28
ricky	So one task is to gather feedback in the way that mizmo described	18:28
ricky	For any person that you interview, make sure to get some background on what category of user they fall in.	18:28
onekopaka	ricky: should I be updating the task list on the wiki at this point?	18:28
ricky	onekopaka: That'd be great if you can	18:29
markg85	mizmo, sant me to go through with asking for feedback on fp.o on the websites mailing list or now? the question i will ask is: What do you really like about this site: fp.o, get.fp.o. If it where gone what would you miss?	18:29
onekopaka	mmkay I've got it open in my browser for editing	18:29
markg85	sant = want	18:29
ricky	mizmo: Does that sound like the right kind of question, or do you have any other suggestions for markg85?	18:29
mizmo	markg85: that sounds like the right question but i dont think the websites list is the right place to ask	18:30
ricky	Should the questions be more task-focused?	18:30
ricky	Like: Show me what you would do if you wanted to download the x86_64 KDE live cd	18:30
mizmo	ricky: yeh, for www.fpo though forming a task like that is a bit trickier	18:30
ricky	True.	18:30
mizmo	markg85: i can handle asking the questions for get.fpo if you can handle www.fpo	18:30
markg85	mizmo, want me to crosspost it to: fedora, fedora-devel, fedora-websites and fedora-design ?	18:30
mizmo	markg85: i think the question you've come up with will work for www.fpo	18:31
mizmo	markg85: i wouldn't spam mailing lists, i would ask in the venues i suggested above (friends, #fedora, #fedora-devel)	18:31
ricky	markg85: People in real life could be good as well - especially for the people that don't know what Fedora or Linux is	18:31
hiemanshu	I change that and put it up for User Gallery	18:31
onekopaka	ricky: I think we should really have a Websites/Tasks/Feedback page for Feedback-related tasks to keep the task list cleaner	18:33
onekopaka	ricky: what do you think about that?	18:33
ricky	Yeah, that sounds better than spamming the mailing list	18:34
hiemanshu	onekopaka, +1	18:34
nb	ricky, /me would go to torrents to download everything  :)	18:34
nb	but i dont know how many people know about torrents.fedoraproject.org	18:34
ricky	OK, so does everybody know what to work on? If so, we can close for the week  :-)	18:34
onekopaka	recently, I've been cleaning the wiki up	18:34
* hiemanshu is ready to fire up		18:35
markg85	mizmo, for the question. don't make it questions because that again will scare users away. That one question i made up will probably do fine for fp.o and get.fp.o	18:35
ricky	Oh, one more thing - how is this meeting time for everybody?	18:35
* mchua --> train - logs plz!		18:35
hiemanshu	Midnight here, fine with me	18:35
mchua	this time is fine	18:35
ricky	Only a couple of people filled out mchua's whenisgood thing, so this time was pretty much based on 4 peoples' times.	18:35
nb	is pretty good for me, i don't normally work till about 30m inst from now	18:35
nb	altough sometimes i would have to work	18:35
onekopaka	ricky: good for the summer, but once school starts again it'll be a pain	18:35
markg85	ricky, this time is fine for me	18:35
ricky	onekopaka: Heh, I'm in the same situation, actually	18:35
nb	don't really include me in your planning, my schedule changes every week	18:36
ricky	OK, for those reading on the mailing list: if you didn't fill in your time, please do so	18:36
ricky	I think mchua's whenisgood thing is closed now, so we'll figure out some way to get times.	18:36
ricky	nb: Heh, no worries	18:36
-!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Meeting End		18:36

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