QA/Meetings/20100104

Attendees

People present (lines said)

• jlaska (154)
• adamw (57)
• Viking-Ice (19)
• maxamillion (17)
• wwoods (12)
• kparal (8)
• nirik (4)
• zodbot (3)
• buggbot (1)

Regrets:

• User:Liam
• User:Rhe

Agenda

• Proposed meeting agenda
• [FIXME meetbot summary]

Previous meeting follow-up

1. jlaska to post recommendations on F-12 QA retrospective
   • See Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations
2. adamw to escalate security policy issue to fesco
   • See https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/297
3. jlaska to set up a meeting to co-ordinate test plan changes for F13
   • Hosted a small team sprint the week prior to Christmas with Liam, Hurry, Adam and myself to work through open F-13 test planning tickets
4. adamw and jlaska to look at setting up f13 test day process
   • Ideas posted to Talk:QA/Fedora_13_test_days
   • Adam and James to continue discussion

F-13 Recommendations

Discussion around the proposed QA changes for F-13 based on Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations. Begin identifying gaps and owners.

Process

See Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Process_4

Move User:Liam/Draft_Install_Test_SOP out of draft status - to me this is part of making install testing easier.

Move User:Poelstra/blocker_bug_meeting_sop out of draft status - adamw had some improvements during FUDCon, I think we just need to dust it off before the blocker reviews kick in again

Draft a SOP (or extract from existing BugsAndFeatureRequests page) that describes how to document bugs (e.g. common_bugs or release notes or install guide etc...). Adamw noted that while no single page exists now, each location includes information on how to contribute. Adamw and Jlaska wondered if there was a way to provide a single page that links to existing documentation so that we can easily direct the efforts of testers who wish to provide documentation/workarounds for bugs they've found. jlaska took action to reach out to beland for guidance/ideas on how to document the process (or point to existing documentation) for how bugs are noted (common_bugs, release notes, install guide etc...) How to determine which bugs land in which place

Draft/promote a recommended test checklist for rawhide testers (for example see User:Jlaska/Draft2) - this is something spot discussed a while ago and adamw drafted an idea. I think it would be worthwhile to reference from the QA/Joining page ... ideas?

'How to debug <component> problems?' -- Determine whether guides can be offered by Fedora QA as a result of a test day/feature process. Viking-Ice asked for more details. Jlaska explained that this was largely intended to follow the successful model Viking-Ice initiated by starting the debugging guide for the F-12 dracut feature (see How_to_debug_Dracut_problems). Viking-Ice offered to review the list of upcoming features for good debug guide candidates (see Releases/13/FeatureList).

Adamw offered assistance adding/improving installation testing to the current QA activities page.

Planning

See Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Test_Planning_3

Jlaska noted that Liam and Hurry are doing a lot of heavy lifting with regards to beefing up the installation test plan. There are several wiki improvements coming aimed to improve posting test results, new test cases for yum repos, a lot of improvements to existing tests and a reorganization of priorities based on the updated release criteria.

Adam reminded the group that a ticket has been filed for FESCO review regarding a security checklist/test plan. Adam also started drafting test cases to cover the desktop verification from Fedora_Release_Criteria (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Desktop_Acceptance_Test_Cases).

Viking-Ice raised the topic of creating an xorg-x11-drv test plan. Adam mentioned that this was a big discussion topic during the team sprint. The problem space is that we want to test available X hardware. The community provides this pool of hardware, but we have no means to gather and organize feedback in the short timeframe that would be meaningful for the X developers. The current test coverage for X consists of driver-specific test days (intel, nouveau and radeon), and providing information to aid testers to properly triage failures (see How_to_debug_Xorg_problems).

Viking-Ice, nirik and Adamw discussed fedoraforum.org user feedback. Adam felt that the 2 biggest areas of feedback were around 1) HELP MY X/COMPIZ DOESN'T WORK and 2) HELP MY PROPRIETARY DRIVER DOESN'T WORK. The first area is already covered, and the second point is out of our scope.

Viking-Ice took action to investigate adding an LXDE test day to the F-13 test day schedule. Similarly, maxamillion took action to schedule an XFCE test day on the F-13 test day schedule.

Jlaska took an action item to reach out to User:Mclasen for information on any Fit'n'Finish test day plans for F-13.

Communication

See Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Communication_4

Adam offered assistance improving the QA wiki pages to include any install activities. Jlaska suggested that Hurry had some initial ideas here, and perhaps they could sync up.

Automation

See Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Test_Automation

Not a lot of discussion on this point during hte meeting since each meeting typically devotes time AutoQA status updates.

While discussing 'Deploying AutoQA 'is rawhide broken?', Jlaska was reminded to reach out to fedora-{test,devel}-list for trading package reviews.

Some discussion followed on whether rpmlint and rpmguard should be merged. Kparal suggested that the two projects have different goals and there is value in keeping them separate.

Wwoods noted that assisting Liam and Hurry by helping to build the autoqa install automation fundamentals would be a focus area for the new year. Will mentioned the inputs needed for any install test; 1) a description of the test system, 2) a URL to a kickstart file, 3) a URL to an install source. Jlaska noted that he included those three points in an email to Liam before the break. Jlaska will catch up with Liam to see if he is having fun with python.

Upcoming QA events

• 2010-01-21 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #1
• 2010-01-28 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #2
• 2010-01-04 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #3
• 2010-02-05 - Alpha Blocker Meeting (F13Alpha) #1
• 2010-02-11 - Test Alpha 'Test Compose' (boot media testing)
• 2010-02-12 - Alpha Blocker Meeting (F13Alpha) #2

Action items

• Viking-Ice investigating adding an LXDE test day to the F-13 test day schedule
• maxamillion investigating scheduling a XFCE test day to F-13 test day schedule
• adamw and rhe to discuss ways to add install testing as a QA activity
• jlaska will reach out to mclasen for thoughts on F-13 fit'n'finish test days
• jlaska to reach out ot fedora-{test,devel}-list for trading reviews
• jlaska to reach out to beland for guidance/ideas on how to document the process (or point to existing documentation) for how bugs are noted (common_bugs, release notes, install guide etc...) How to determine which bugs land in which place

IRC transcript

jlaska	#startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting	16:01
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Jan 4 16:01:14 2010 UTC. The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	16:01
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	16:01
jlaska	#meetingname qa	16:01
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'qa'	16:01
jlaska	#topic gathering	16:01
adamw	hellllo	16:02
jlaska	Howdy folks ... let's do a show of hands	16:02
* wwoods shows off his hands		16:02
jlaska	ooh, look at those hands	16:02
wwoods	theyr'e the new '10 model	16:02
* kparal waves too		16:02
adamw	who'd you cut them off? and where'd you get the jars?	16:02
* Viking-Ice raises his hand for a high five on the new year..		16:02
wwoods	Viking-Ice: o/ \o	16:03
jlaska	down low	16:03
adamw	wwoods can give you a high twenty	16:03
jlaska	alright ... let's get things started	16:04
jlaska	we've got a light agenda today ... but always room for 'open discussion'	16:04
jlaska	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	16:04
jlaska	okay ... trying to figure out which meeting was the previous	16:04
jlaska	the last set of tasks I'm tracking are listed at QA/Meetings/20100104#Previous_meeting_follow-up	16:05
jlaska	#info jlaska to post recommendations on F-12 QA retrospective	16:05
jlaska	these are posted and available at Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations	16:05
jlaska	I've left most of the agenda for walking through this	16:05
jlaska	next I've got ...	16:06
jlaska	#info adamw to escalate security policy issue to fesco	16:06
jlaska	I don't have any updates on that one ... did that already happen?	16:07
adamw	err. i think i filed a ticket. just a sec	16:07
adamw	yeah, I did	16:07
adamw	https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/297	16:07
jlaska	ah great	16:08
adamw	no reply yet	16:08
* jlaska lost the linky		16:08
jlaska	so that'll come up for discussion at the next FESCO meeting right?	16:08
jlaska	Next up ...	16:08
jlaska	#info jlaska to set up a meeting to co-ordinate test plan changes for F13	16:08
jlaska	We had a quick sprint the week prior to Christmas with adamw, lili, rhe and myself walking through the list of F-13 test plan tickets	16:09
jlaska	still lots of kinks to iron out in the sprint process, and there are still a few inprogress tickets	16:10
* jlaska searches for ticket query		16:10
jlaska	https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&component=Test+Review&milestone=Fedora+13&order=priority	16:11
jlaska	I'll circle back and bump the status on a few of those later today	16:11
jlaska	last item ...	16:11
jlaska	#info adamw and jlaska to look at setting up f13 test day process	16:11
jlaska	No updates from me on this ... I'd like to chat w/ adamw this week to iron out an approach	16:12
maxamillion	is there something that is going to be greatly different from the last test day process(es)?	16:12
jlaska	we've got initial ideas posted to the wiki already ... Talk:QA/Fedora_13_test_days	16:12
jlaska	maxamillion: I don't expect so ... just need to get on top of it and actively work the schedule	16:13
jlaska	okay, anything not mentioned?	16:13
maxamillion	ah, nice	16:13
maxamillion	I'll be sure to read that later	16:13
jlaska	if not ... we'll jump into the F-13 QA recommendations	16:14
jlaska	maxamillion: cool, and of course, test day topic suggestions encouraged too!	16:14
jlaska	#topic F-13 QA Recommendations	16:14
jlaska	So ... I've taking all the QA retrospective feedback and tried to organize things into several groups	16:14
maxamillion	jlaska: I'll be working with kevin and christoph on the xfce spin test day plans and try to add suggestions if I find any :)	16:15
jlaska	maxamillion: awesome, that's just what I had in mind. Any additional spin test days would be fun (much like the sugar event)	16:15
Viking-Ice	I was thinking about going knee deep in LXDE so I should be able to write something..	16:15
maxamillion	Viking-Ice: be sure to touch base with cwickert, i'm sure he'd welcome the interest in LXDE	16:16
jlaska	so I've organized the feedback into the following themes: process, planning, communication and automation	16:16
jlaska	these aren't hard themes, just what bubbled up from how I read the data	16:16
jlaska	so there is overlap between these themes .. but in general, I was happy with the grouping	16:17
Viking-Ice	maxamillion: I was planning to hear from him..	16:17
maxamillion	Viking-Ice: cool cool :)	16:17
jlaska	maxamillion: Viking-Ice should I add an action item for next week on this? or too soon?	16:17
jlaska	^--> re: LXDE and XFCE spin test days?	16:17
Viking-Ice	you can add action item for me	16:18
jlaska	okay	16:18
maxamillion	we could do next week, that would give me a bit of motivation to get on the ball about it	16:18
maxamillion	errr I*	16:18
* Viking-Ice works best under pressure..		16:18
jlaska	#action Viking-Ice investigating adding an LXDE test day to the F-13 test day schedule	16:18
jlaska	#action maxamillion investigating scheduling a XFCE test day to F-13 test day schedule	16:19
maxamillion	w00t! my first action item in the QA world :P	16:20
jlaska	maxamillion: heh, you've arrived :D	16:20
jlaska	so have folks had a chance to look through the recommendations?	16:20
jlaska	Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations	16:20
jlaska	there shouldn't be surprises there ... I've basically reorganized the feedback provided	16:21
jlaska	what I'd like to do is walk through the list and see if we can identify owners for some of the tasks	16:21
maxamillion	jlaska: do you want to #link that so its in the minutes? (that might not even be the right tag, but you get the idea) :)	16:21
jlaska	maxamillion: sure ...	16:21
jlaska	#link Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations	16:22
adamw	just refreshing my memory	16:22
jlaska	many of the listed recommendations are things several of you are already on top of	16:23
adamw	i could take "Promote install testing as a QA activity"	16:23
jlaska	adamw: thanks, Hurry has some ideas on this already ... would you two like to sync up?	16:24
jlaska	perhaps her experience on the install side iwth your wiki mastery can come up with some good ideas	16:24
adamw	also most of the 'communication' stuff	16:24
adamw	well yeah i was just meaning i could do the wiki bits	16:25
adamw	stick me in a #action	16:25
Viking-Ice	I need a little explanation with this "Determine whether guides can be offered by Fedora QA as a result of a test day/feature process"	16:25
jlaska	#action adamw and rhe to discuss ways to add install testing as a QA activity	16:25
jlaska	adamw: kparal had some social networking suggestions already, perhaps we can divide and conquer there?	16:26
jlaska	Viking-Ice: my thinking there was to follow your lead for dracut	16:26
kparal	not really mine suggestions, but I can help	16:26
jlaska	kparal: oh right ...these were from the lunch'n'learn	16:26
kparal	correct	16:27
Viking-Ice	Advertice on the Fedora Project network on FB	16:27
jlaska	Viking-Ice: basically, that dracut debug page rocks ... I'd like to see we can follow that model again for maybe a few features?	16:27
jlaska	what do you think?	16:27
Viking-Ice	sounds raz..	16:27
Viking-Ice	I'll run through the feature stuff and see what I can write..	16:28
jlaska	Viking-Ice: sweet, I think that would be tremendously helpful. I just don't know a good way to target specfiic features	16:28
jlaska	dracut was a good choice since it was something *everyone* would need	16:28
jlaska	perhaps python3 might be similar in that regard? or others	16:29
jlaska	#link Releases/13/FeatureList	16:30
jlaska	#topic F-13 QA Recommendations - test planning	16:30
jlaska	on the test planning front ... much of this is already underway	16:31
jlaska	#info Maintenance of the Fedora Install Test Plan - Liam and Hurry are doing a lot of heavy lifting here	16:31
jlaska	#info Draft a more formal, but basic and lightweight, security checklist/test plan - discussed earlier, adamw has a fesco ticket filed ... stay tuned	16:31
jlaska	#info Draft a test plan to cover the desktop verification from Fedora_Release_Criteria	16:32
jlaska	#link Fedora_Release_Criteria	16:32
kparal	I noticed adamw is creating test plan for the desktop stuff: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Desktop_Acceptance_Test_Cases	16:32
adamw	yeah, i'm in teh middle of that	16:32
adamw	got about halfway through before the xmas break	16:32
adamw	will be back on it this week	16:32
jlaska	kparal: perfect, thanks for the link	16:32
kparal	I will gladly help with that if time permits	16:33
adamw	sure, if anyone wants to chip in tests that'd be great	16:33
Viking-Ice	I think we need to get in touch with the X team to come up with an formal Xorg test plan ( not just x11-drv-* )	16:33
jlaska	Viking-Ice: good segway ... that was next	16:33
adamw	well we talked about that quite a lot at the sprint	16:33
jlaska	#info We have no formal Xorg-x11-drv test plan ... either create one, or develop proposal for gathering the same feedback through other means (smolt, bugzilla)	16:33
adamw	i actually don't think a test plan for X would achieve much	16:33
adamw	we started doing a test matrix then realized it was pretty pointless	16:33
jlaska	adamw: can you talk more about how we came to that conclusion?	16:34
adamw	the tricky thing with X is that the main problem with it is that we're dealing with seventy zillion different bits of hardware	16:34
jlaska	yeah that ---^ :)	16:34
adamw	and the level of functionality we currently care about is pretty basic, this isn't really deep level stuff	16:34
maxamillion	I think there could be a matrix of hardware and "Works for Me" and maybe some break down of how much works (KMS, direct rendering, etc)	16:34
adamw	the types of problems we get with X are not 'this one out of the millions of really complex levels of functionality suddenly regressed' but 'o shit this card doesn't work any more'	16:35
adamw	maxamillion: that would rapidly get HORRIBLY unsustainable	16:35
jlaska	maxamillion: if someone wanted to look into how to pull this out of smolt and present the information ... that would be a fun project	16:35
adamw	i really can't emphasize the amount of hardware we're talking about here enough	16:35
maxamillion	adamw: for a test day?	16:35
Viking-Ice	what about input ( keyboards usb etc ) and for example multitouch ?	16:35
maxamillion	or you mean long term	16:35
adamw	we already do test days	16:35
maxamillion	?	16:35
maxamillion	oh ok, i misunderstood	16:35
adamw	we're talking about some kind of test plan	16:35
maxamillion	sorry, I'm in a meeting at $dayjob and trying to keep up with this one ... don't mind me :P	16:36
adamw	i just don't think that's an approach that fixes the X situation; it's not the paradigm that addresses the kinds of problems we actually get with X	16:36
maxamillion	adamw: yeah, I agree	16:36
jlaska	maxamillion: no it's a good suggestion ... it's just trying to figure out how to sustainably execute the plan and track the data	16:36
adamw	Viking-Ice: um. in theory an input matrix is a useful idea, but in practice it kinda depends how much we care about anything besides basic mouse+keyboard stuff	16:36
adamw	er, s/matrix/test plan/	16:37
adamw	multitouch is way too basic at this point to worry about	16:37
adamw	you can't really _use_ it in any meaningful way yet	16:37
adamw	jlaska still reckons some kind of test plan for X is a good idea, but i still don't quite understand exactly what we can achieve with one that we're not achieving already; this is where we left it in the sprint :)	16:37
jlaska	one way we can use the existing test cases is much how they've been used so far	16:37
jlaska	for test days and for use to help isolate the true failure of reported bugs	16:38
Viking-Ice	adamw: Ok Talking about meaningful did we receive any feed back from nirik and others on the front ( forums #fedora etc ) about what they get bombarded with ( perhaps something we should track and target for test days )	16:39
jlaska	Viking-Ice: good suggestion	16:39
* nirik looks up.		16:39
adamw	well, i'm mostly on teh front for X stuff, and yeah, we do co-ordinate a bit on that	16:39
nirik	you mean specific stuff? or in general areas we see a lot of stuff?	16:40
jlaska	nirik: other soft spots from the F-12 release that could modify the QA plan for F-13	16:40
Viking-Ice	all proprietary aside the issues most end users are faced with	16:40
adamw	i don't think we can add much to our process based on that feedback. i'd say broadly what you get splits into two camps: 'HELP MY X/COMPIZ DOESN'T WORK' and 'HELP MY PROPRIETARY DRIVER DOESN'T WORK'	16:40
adamw	second is out of our scope	16:40
adamw	first is already covered	16:40
* nirik nods.		16:40
jlaska	true	16:40
jlaska	okay ... last I have on the planning side is Test Days	16:41
adamw	as i said, X is fundamentally a shallow area: the issues are due to hardware variety (and the developers rewriting everything every three months). there just isn't a complex tangle of functionality to test	16:41
jlaska	adamw: if we had a pull of every hardware adapter available ... would there be some type of feedback to provide to X maintainers that would be valuable?	16:42
nirik	having the list of workarounds especially for install has been great on the common bugs list.	16:42
jlaska	oh god ... s/pull/pool/	16:42
adamw	well, yeah. if we had a Big Test Lab with every graphics adapter in the world in it, sure. what they'd be interested in is knowing with every day's rawhide which systems basically worked. for bonus points, which could do enough 3D to run compiz.	16:43
jlaska	heh	16:43
adamw	i mean, that's really it. like i keep saying, it's not complicated =)	16:43
jlaska	adamw: so instead, we have a highly distributed test lab	16:43
adamw	there was that thread about 'stop working on rawhide and work on f12' or whatever on devel-list	16:43
wwoods	(if you consider the set of Interested Fedora Users as a distributed test lab..)	16:43
adamw	dave airlie (or ajax, I forget) posted the X team's List Of Things We Really Care About to that thread, which is basically what I just said	16:44
jlaska	wwoods: true true	16:44
jlaska	adamw: gotcha	16:44
jlaska	alright ... so last I had on the planning topic was test days	16:44
jlaska	anyone know if they are plans to revisit the 'fit and finish' events?	16:44
Viking-Ice	adamw: Big Test Lab the world not enough ;)	16:44
jlaska	if not, I can follow-up w/ mclasen	16:44
adamw	sure. how i look at that is that the blocking points in that way of looking at things all involve making the lab work efficiently. the test plan is not part of that. the test plan defines _what to test_, which as I keep saying is really simple and everyone knows it already	16:44
adamw	all the problems with X testing, if we look at the 'the world is a big test lab' theory, lie in actually co-ordinating the distributed systems and people who make up the 'lab' to do testing and provide useful info. which a test plan can't really help with, i don' think. but hey. sorry, jlaska wants to move on :)	16:45
jlaska	adamw, no thanks ... you explained it better than I could have hoped to	16:46
Viking-Ice	Let's move along..	16:46
jlaska	#action jlaska will reach out to mclasen for thoughts on F-13 fit'n'finish test days	16:47
jlaska	okay ... any other suggestions on the test planning side for F-13?	16:47
jlaska	for reference ... Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Test_Planning_3	16:47
jlaska	alright ... the next group is where wwoods and kparal rock	16:48
jlaska	#topic F-13 QA Recommendations - test automation	16:48
jlaska	#link Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Test_Automation	16:48
jlaska	The first obvious one is ...	16:48
jlaska	#info Deploy AutoQA 'is rawhide broken?' front-end into fedora infrastructure	16:49
jlaska	this is inprogress ... and going through package review at the moment	16:49
jlaska	#action jlaska to reach out ot fedora-{test,devel}-list for trading reviews	16:49
jlaska	#info Deploy build-time sanity checking mechanism for package maintainers (rpmguard, rpmlint etc...)	16:49
jlaska	Kamil and Will are knee deep in this now	16:49
jlaska	with both rpmlint and rpmguard working into the system	16:50
kparal	and will be deeper :)	16:50
jlaska	hehe	16:50
jlaska	The last item I have here is	16:50
jlaska	#ifo Develop proof-of-concept for automating install test matrix	16:50
jlaska	#info Develop proof-of-concept for automating install test matrix	16:50
wwoods	I'm pretty sure rpmguard will obsolete rpmlint eventually	16:50
kparal	I don't think so, they have different goal	16:51
jlaska	Liam and Hurry are working towards a automated DVD install test at the moment ... and then likely will need wwoods expertise for integrating the tests into AutoQA	16:51
wwoods	kparal: hm, good point	16:51
wwoods	jlaska: yeah, I think this will probably be my first big goal for the new year?	16:51
jlaska	wwoods: cool, this would be huge to see traction on before F-13 kicks into high gear	16:52
jlaska	Liam was looking into playing with install.py over the break and expanding it to do a basic DVD install ... I'll be checking in to see how he's making out soon	16:52
jlaska	anything else under automation that wasn't covered ... that needs to be on the radar?	16:52
wwoods	yeah, IIRC it involves designing a test that takes as input:	16:52
wwoods	1) a description of the test system hardware (disks, disk sizes),	16:53
wwoods	2) a kickstart (which describes partitioning etc),	16:53
wwoods	3) an installable tree/image	16:53
jlaska	yeah, I should have cc'd you on the mail I sent him	16:53
jlaska	basically the same list of inputs	16:53
wwoods	pretty sure a test that would do that would cover the entire test matrix, but we'll see	16:53
jlaska	okay ... we touched on each of the other sections already but here they are for the logs	16:54
jlaska	#topic F-13 QA Recommendations - process	16:55
jlaska	#link Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Process_4	16:55
Viking-Ice	One thing that came to my mind when I hit bug 549944 is this something we can automate an test for ( looks like version mismatch )	16:55
buggbot	Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=549944 medium, low, ---, jskala, NEW, Updating ppp to 2.4.5-x breaks NetworkManager-pptp vpn connection...	16:55
jlaska	Viking-Ice: hrmm, yeah if there's something there that could have been detecting with rpmguard, we can get a ticket in for a future test case idea	16:56
jlaska	so for process ... I had a few things	16:57
jlaska	#info Move User:Liam/Draft_Install_Test_SOP out of draft status - to me this is part of making install testing easier	16:57
jlaska	#info Move User:Poelstra/blocker_bug_meeting_sop out of draft status - adamw had some improvements during FUDCon, I think we just need to dust it off before the blocker reviews kick in again	16:57
jlaska	#info Draft a SOP (or extract from existing BugsAndFeatureRequests page) that describes how to document bugs (e.g. common_bugs or release notes or install guide etc...)	16:58
jlaska	^^^ I'm a simple caveman ... so the docs might already be out there, but I could stand to be reminded how we advise folks on documenting issues	16:58
adamw	we don't have anything really	16:58
adamw	well, each document advises people how to contribute to it	16:59
adamw	the common_bugs page advises how to add to the common_bugs page	16:59
jlaska	#info Draft/promote a recommended test checklist for rawhide testers (for example see User:Jlaska/Draft2) - this is something spot discussed a while ago and adamw drafted an idea. I think it would be worthwhile to reference from the QA/Joining page ... ideas?	16:59
adamw	the docs team have a page explaining how to contribute to the release notes	16:59
adamw	jlaska: we could probably stick it up as a page and just link it from one of the existing sections on Joining	16:59
adamw	off the top of my head	16:59
jlaska	adamw: yeah true ... I was looking for a single page that had pointed to the instructions and helped advise which place was relevant for different bugs	17:00
jlaska	#info # 'How to debug <component> problems?' -- Determine whether guides can be offered by Fedora QA as a result of a test day/feature process. - Viking-Ice already discussed this previously	17:00
adamw	jlaska: the problem with that is, what would drive people to the central page?	17:00
jlaska	just like all other debug guides and doc pages ... we would	17:01
jlaska	in our IRC discussions, mailing list interactions etc	17:01
adamw	jlaska: well i don't see a natural flow, a real role for this central page	17:01
adamw	hmm, i see	17:01
jlaska	you don't .. cause you are the natural flow for this stuff! :D	17:01
adamw	well that's what i'm trying to explain in a crappy way =)	17:01
jlaska	hehe	17:01
jlaska	I can take that action on that one for the release	17:02
adamw	usually i can see a sorta natural 'place' for a new wiki page, where it would fit into the flow of reference from page to page...i'm not sure i can see a real good place for something new here...maybe beland would have an idea how to structure it	17:02
jlaska	oooh, yeah he has a way with those kinds of wiki changes	17:02
jlaska	I can reach out to beland for guidance/ideas if that makes sense	17:03
adamw	sure	17:03
adamw	maybe he can come up with a mockup that'd make me go 'ohhh yeah'	17:03
jlaska	okay	17:03
jlaska	#action jlaska to reach out to beland for guidance/ideas on how to document the process (or point to existing documentation) for how bugs are noted (common_bugs, release notes, install guide etc...) How to determine which bugs land in which place	17:04
jlaska	#topic F-13 QA Recommendations - communication	17:05
jlaska	#link Fedora_12_QA_Retrospective#Communication_4	17:05
jlaska	I'm not going to spend time on this section, we discussed it earlier	17:05
jlaska	so ... any other thoughts/concerns on the recommendations	17:05
jlaska	I think we have a lot of good ideas	17:05
jlaska	and I'd like for us to look back on this page after F-13 ... and say ... great, we did X% of what we said we would	17:06
jlaska	regardless of what the value of X is	17:06
jlaska	okay ... let's move on to open discussion	17:06
jlaska	#topic Open discussion - <your topic here>	17:06
adamw	nothing here	17:08
jlaska	<crickets>	17:08
jlaska	well, happy new year everyone and welcome back :)	17:08
jlaska	I'm sure folks are still digging out from under email	17:08
Viking-Ice	I propose that Fedora QA uses it's extensive forces and influences in the whole world to get a softer toilet paper to public toilets and conduct massive everyday testing on those paper..	17:08
Viking-Ice	in the year 2010	17:09
jlaska	Viking-Ice: I'd like to see that test plan!	17:09
kparal	:))	17:09
Viking-Ice	I need to redraw it I accidentally flushed it down the drain..	17:09
jlaska	well, on that note ...	17:10
jlaska	#endmeeting	17:10

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