Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080514

quaid	<meeting>	12:03
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo hanging out -- roll call and opening howdies, then congratulations and all that on another fine release, the kittens are safe once again		12:03
quaid	I is still here	12:03
jmbuser	JohnBabich	12:04
Sparks	EricChristensen	12:04
jsmith	JaredSmith (present but brain-dead)	12:04
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quaid	glezos is here too I rekcon	12:05
stickster	PaulFrields	12:05
quaid	so, howdy, everyone	12:05
quaid	congrats on another fine gold ISO to fall from the heavens	12:05
* jmbuser is still downloading the LiveCD		12:06
stickster	Hear, hear	12:06
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quaid	ok, then	12:07
jmbuser	+1	12:07
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo deciding stuff -- What is Docs focus? Can we handle a switch to focus on Fedora contributors first? What does this mean? Are people interested in this? Would they be upset if other active resources were to focus on contributors instead of end-user docs?		12:07
quaid	ok, you may say ... wtf is this?	12:07
jmbuser	??	12:07
quaid	but folks around here have been talking about trying to resolve our own contributor problems before user problems	12:08
quaid	that is, there is a world of help for users that is nearly good enough for all they need, and we are but a drop in that bucket, Fedora brand or not.	12:08
jmbuser	true	12:08
quaid	but the contributors are a finite group with a finite set of problems that we could really help give a better life.	12:08
stickster	So this is something I feel strongly about.	12:08
quaid	so, and I am repeating a suggestion from someone else, we could just decide to pull away anyone who is interested in talking this situation	12:09
stickster	Let me take off my FPL hat... and put on a purely Docs guy hat.	12:09
quaid	forget all the guides and all that for a while, etc.	12:09
quaid	stickster: go ahead, please, as the suggestor :)	12:09
stickster	I don't want to interrupt rudely, sorry	12:09
stickster	But by the same token, I want to take the blame for this idea because it may be... controversial.	12:10
stickster	I feel that we in Docs have been laboring a LONG, LOOONNNNG time to get some basic user documentation done.	12:10
stickster	And that documentation already exists in so many places.	12:10
stickster	The licensing on those other docs elsewhere keep us from just using them, so we are basically *FORCED* to do a "NIH" (not invented here) thing and redo everything from scratch ourselves.	12:11
stickster	What we *really* need to do, if you ask me --	12:11
* quaid askes		12:11
stickster	is to concentrate on writing documentation that is going to help other people contribute to Fedora.	12:11
quaid	aka fix our own leaky roof, shod our own children	12:11
stickster	Right, and not just for Docs, but for other groups as well.	12:12
stickster	You might think to yourself, that this sounds really like cleaning up the wiki and doing a good job tying things together there.	12:12
stickster	And I'm saying -- well, yes.	12:12
stickster	We have always been of two minds about the wiki	12:13
stickster	But the truth is, with the single sign-on coming, the wiki will be easier than ever for new contributors.	12:13
stickster	Get an account, start editing the wiki right away.	12:13
stickster	And that's all well and good	12:13
stickster	But the REAL audience for Fedora is the CONTRIBUTOR audience.	12:13
jmbuser	+1	12:13
stickster	We need to empower them to GET INVOLVED.	12:14
stickster	To work on PACKAGING.	12:14
stickster	On MARKETING.	12:14
stickster	On WEBSITES/INFRASTRUCTURE.	12:14
stickster	On DOCS. (!)	12:14
stickster	Those are the people that keep Fedora alive.	12:14
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stickster	The contributors are our audience.	12:14
quaid	I meant he bigger roof, foshure!	12:15
jsmith	+1	12:15
stickster	We love users, and are overjoyed we have milliions of them.	12:15
stickster	But users in and of themselves do not power FOSS just through using it -- contributors who give something back, do.	12:15
stickster	That could be as little as filing one bug -- meaning any user can be a contributor.	12:15
quaid	I think we'll find that after we do this, the wiki will work right and we can shepherd new contributors to work within some of the docs we've defined	12:15
stickster	But only if he knows *how* to do it.	12:16
stickster	quaid: I think it's going to help a lot.	12:16
quaid	content == screencasts, written, translated	12:16
quaid	my recommendation is ...	12:16
* couf here		12:16
stickster	There's also another audience to think about -- not just the hobbyist, but the independent software vendors (ISVs), companies, and so on	12:16
quaid	couf: catch up on that, eh? :)	12:16
stickster	We need to help them get involved in Fedora too.	12:16
quaid	right, this helps them.	12:16
couf	quaid: busy :)	12:16
kital	good	12:16
quaid	ok, so, two ideas I propose:	12:17
stickster	So what I'm recommending is that we ask ourselves for any piece of Documentation, "Is this something that's unique to Fedora?"	12:17
stickster	If it's 90% not, then the document should be, well, 90% shorter.	12:17
quaid	stickster: but we use that filter anyway ...	12:17
quaid	and that is more stage 2	12:18
quaid	where it is obvious that, how to work within Fedora, that is 90% Fedora specific	12:18
* quaid holds back proposals for more discussion ...		12:19
* couf does a +1 to the general suggestion		12:19
* stickster waits to see if he put everyone to sleep.		12:19
jmbuser	stickster: I see the value in what you are saying	12:19
jmbuser	Teach people to fish instead of making fish sandwiches	12:20
couf	the one thing about this is, we can't know everything about everything in Fedora	12:20
stickster	couf: Well, that goes for all Linux too. Thus my argument against writing big, general guides.	12:21
couf	so that would mean tutoring, mentoring from people of thoose groups, and they've goot heaps of load too	12:21
stickster	It very well may be that what I'm proposing comes down to the Docs team turning into a very specific, very targeted	12:21
stickster	force for scouring the new wiki, and organizing it before we take on any tasks beyond the Release Notes and the Installation Guide.	12:21
stickster	And both of *THOSE* could easily turn into online living things as well I suppose.	12:21
quaid	I've been going around saying for the last few weeks that I want to be the new Wiki Gardener	12:22
couf	right	12:22
stickster	And if people want to do guides, maybe we should think about moving those off to fedorahosted.org to develop as independent projects	12:22
quaid	with all that the metaphor implies	12:22
stickster	And eliminating the Docs CVS.	12:22
* stickster waits for the explosion....		12:22
couf	wtf? :)	12:22
quaid	and one idea is to have a regular set of gardening hours, maybe around our meeting time for example, where anyone interested helps prune, plant, and compost	12:22
* jmbuser loves the wiki		12:22
stickster	jmbuser: You'll love it more when it's Mediawiki.	12:23
quaid	we have to be honest	12:23
quaid	outside of the relnotes	12:23
quaid	the conversion is just not worth it	12:23
quaid	or rather, it hasn't been worth it much	12:23
quaid	Installation Guide the one exception	12:23
quaid	usually requiring heroics	12:23
quaid	(and it stays in XML :)	12:23
Sparks	I'm confused. If we cater to the developers then we help built the project. That's good. If we alienate the users then we are developing a project only for ourselves. That's bad.	12:24
stickster	I feel a sense of guilt that I pick the RelNotes and the IG as the two "important" docs when I have worked quite a bit on both.	12:24
couf	yeah, for some stuff it feels like overkill	12:24
quaid	with Transifex, we are freed of CVS	12:24
stickster	But with or without me, users really rely on those.	12:24
Sparks	I'm not sure how much help the developers need.	12:24
stickster	The Relnotes more than the IG.	12:24
stickster	Sparks: It's not the *established* developers, it's the *new* developers who need help.	12:25
stickster	New package maintainers.	12:25
* jmbuser thanks stickster for his last-minute rescue effort on the IG		12:25
stickster	New bug triagers...	12:25
stickster	New platform users	12:25
quaid	+1K	12:25
Sparks	stickster: Okay. I'm good with that. But I think we should provide that documentation, too.	12:25
stickster	Sparks: Dropping guides we can't ever finish != Alienating users	12:25
Sparks	But what are we telling the n00bs that come to Fedora looking for help?	12:26
stickster	After all, we have millions of users, and really good press apparently, without them.	12:26
stickster	Sparks: That's exactly it -- our wiki should be a more robust, well-tended garden of docs.	12:26
stickster	Sparks: We should be able to point them to wiki pages that tell them what they need, in easy terms.	12:26
quaid	so let me ask the white elephant question	12:26
quaid	how is l10n in MW?	12:26
quaid	can we hook it to Tx somehow?	12:27
couf	wow, that's the killer question	12:27
jsmith	Ugh...	12:27
* jsmith falls over dead		12:27
quaid	well, we dunno	12:27
quaid	maybe we *can* version it in git and generate PO/POT	12:27
jmbuser	MW = MediaWiki	12:27
quaid	yes, sorry	12:27
jmbuser	Tx = Transiflex	12:27
mmcgrath	pong	12:28
quaid	s/flex/fex/	12:28
stickster	quaid: This is a good question. I asked mmcgrath to pitch in his opinion on L10N in MW	12:28
quaid	aye	12:28
* mmcgrath is here to give opinions.		12:28
stickster	And speak of the... well, angel	12:28
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stickster	Is there any possibility that people will be able to translate stuff in the wiki in some way?	12:28
mmcgrath	So I think we should do it the same way mediawiki and suse does that. I'm not 100% sure on technical implementations but its basically this...	12:28
mmcgrath	Every language gets its own wiki instance.	12:28
jsmith	wiki != CMS	12:28
stickster	+10 for reusing other working ideas.	12:29
stickster	jsmith: True enough.	12:29
mmcgrath	something (this I'm not sure of) sits in the middle and makes it so if you go to a page that hasn't been translated, you get the english version.	12:29
mmcgrath	I'm not sure how it all works.	12:29
quaid	oh, well	12:29
stickster	Where "working" != "hacked together tearfully"	12:29
quaid	that's different in a sense	12:29
quaid	that is how it is presented to the world	12:29
quaid	but how do they translate?	12:29
stickster	Right, how does the engine work.	12:29
mmcgrath	but there are working examples somewhere. And I've had the lines of communcation opened to the suse guys before, I'll just go ask them.	12:29
quaid	do they open the page and write in new content? ugh	12:29
stickster	This is something we may have to have someone research.	12:30
mmcgrath	quaid: ahhh, the actual translation? I have no idea.	12:30
stickster	That doesn't need to be mmcgrath.	12:30
quaid	also	12:30
quaid	for the engine part	12:30
stickster	It's certainly a good question.	12:30
quaid	we could conceive of replacing it or hooking it to Tx	12:30
couf	yeah, I'm afraid it's as current wiki-translation is going	12:30
quaid	couf: explain please?	12:30
couf	look at a page, copy it, translate it, ...	12:30
couf	same as for Moin	12:31
mmcgrath		12:31
mmcgrath		12:31
* jmbuser sees mmcgrath is speechless		12:31
mmcgrath	<nod> its my understanding thats how it works.	12:31
couf	if not, wikipedia translations would be way more complete in a sense	12:31
stickster	http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Translation_Guide	12:31
mmcgrath	I'm not really taking sides in the whole wiki vs cms thing for translations just because I'm conflicted enough about it.	12:31
stickster	Yup.	12:32
quaid	look, in the end	12:32
quaid	wiki content is strings with markup	12:32
mmcgrath	I mean, if people want to do it, I guess I say let them. I'm not sure how they decide what gets translated.	12:32
quaid	what we need	12:32
quaid	is someone to commit to writing a parser	12:32
quaid	MW wiki => PO/POT	12:32
quaid	if it doesn't exist, it should	12:32
quaid	and then imagine exposing MW via Transifex ... useful,w hat?	12:33
stickster	http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/txt2po	12:33
mmcgrath	po/pot with mediawiki I'd think would be possible but I don't know if it exists.	12:33
stickster	^^^	12:33
mmcgrath	at least not in a way that mediawiki can then read in and present to the user.	12:33
stickster	Note mediawiki is a supported flavor	12:33
mmcgrath	something to look at then.	12:33
stickster	And pootle -- that source project -- is a vigorously supported and thriving project, not old & busted.	12:34
mmcgrath	stickster: it looks like that only supports mw markup -> po. I don't think that mediawiki can then read that po back in and present it to the user.	12:34
mmcgrath	I could be wrong though	12:34
couf	po2txt :)	12:34
stickster	They have both ways, I think	12:35
couf	if that can get automated, that seems doable	12:35
stickster	couf: +1 txt2po, po2txt	12:35
quaid	wow, it looks like the instructions are, "translate the page" with no tools, so it means manually pulling strings into another tool	12:35
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stickster	quaid: You're talking about the OpenSuSE page>	12:36
stickster	?	12:36
quaid	yes, sorry	12:36
stickster	right.	12:36
quaid	but in essence, that is what people do for the big wikipedia, right?	12:36
stickster	See above. There is an automated tool for txt2po and po2txt.	12:36
quaid	I see that now	12:36
stickster	It handles mediawiki! :-)	12:36
stickster	(supposedly)	12:36
quaid	but is anyone using it with a WebUI for MW?	12:36
stickster	So... worth trying.	12:36
quaid	ok	12:36
couf	mmcgrath: is there a way to xml-rpc data out of MW and back in?	12:36
mmcgrath	but I don't see how mediawiki will handle it is all.	12:36
quaid	we need to look at that on the side	12:37
couf	or something like xml-rpc	12:37
stickster	I would think that Transifex could do this.	12:37
mmcgrath	couf: yeah, the api is pretty rich. I've even heard of fuse implementations to actualy mount mediawiki though I've not played with it.	12:37
quaid	mmcgrath: something needs to inject the strings back in the MW files/database tables, and do it by language	12:37
mmcgrath	well, transifex's implementation is "check out, alter, commit"	12:37
mmcgrath	it does that with existing tools.	12:37
mmcgrath	we might have to write our own tool for transifex to do it right.	12:37
stickster	mmcgrath: Right, but I think it's built modularly enough that back end support for something else could be plugged in.	12:37
quaid	we would likely want to put the files in SCM	12:37
stickster	mmcgrath: yup	12:37
couf	in other words: tools are pretty much in place, we just have to tie'em together	12:37
stickster	mmcgrath: we're in violent agreement :-)	12:37
quaid	or could, that is, so we can version them	12:38
quaid	ok then	12:38
stickster	quaid: Actually, MW versions.	12:38
mmcgrath	possibly... I'm still not convinced mediawiki can read po files though.	12:38
quaid	mmcgrath: let's try a bit of quid pro quo	12:38
stickster	So we don't necessarily need an additional SCM.	12:38
mmcgrath	since mediawiki gets all of its information from a database.	12:38
mmcgrath	"quaid pro quo"	12:38
quaid	mmcgrath: will you work with us	12:38
jmbuser	This could be another great Fedora contrib to upstream	12:38
stickster	mmcgrath: Right, it might take something external to do the conversion and inject the page change into MW.	12:38
quaid	mmcgrath: to make a new project to get this to happen, owned by Infra	12:38
quaid	mmcgrath: it is our condition on being able to move a bunch of work to the wiki *and* be the gardeners to keep it a tame and wonderful place	12:39
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mmcgrath	quaid: I can help but not for a while, I've got a month of work to catch up on (because of the change freeze + release). I'm pretty well booked until the end of June is all.	12:39
quaid	otherwise we are forever pushing guides out from there and into XML just so we can translate the things	12:39
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quaid	not sure on timeframe	12:39
mmcgrath	after that though I'll be happy to help. If you can find someone else in infrastructure that can do it sooner I'll make sure they have the access they need	12:39
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stickster	We ought to see if we can put out a call for volunteer help in the Fedora community to kick this off.	12:39
* quaid has to be honest, DocBook is more for translation ease than for anything that a wiki cannot do "good enough" and be better at getting contributions		12:40
stickster	I love DocBook too which is why I think any project we want to have in DocBook should just become a thriving entity in fedorahosted.org.	12:40
quaid	mmcgrath: OK, general support for the idea of kicking off a potential upstream tool to plugin to the wiki is probably the most important, v. actual labor	12:40
couf	I'll try and get some L1ON-input on this	12:40
quaid	stickster: +1 to that!	12:41
stickster	Especially since we can have a toolchain using an in-distro tool, Publican, to do the work.	12:41
quaid	couf: that would be good; it's too late for a GSoC project :(	12:41
* jmbuser thought the same thing		12:41
couf	yeah, that's a bummer	12:41
stickster	At worst this might make for a BRILLIANT FUDCon hackfest topic.	12:41
quaid	let's reorg this thing!	12:41
jmbuser	Yes!	12:42
quaid	so, can I lay out some decision points to make it clear we are agreed or not?	12:42
jmbuser	Proceed	12:42
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quaid	i. FDSCo agrees to turn attention on enabling *all* Fedora contributors? This is not done as a mandate/order but a statement of intent for the project. People can and should continue on whatever content is of interest to them and only pitch in where they want.	12:43
* quaid continues		12:43
mmcgrath	:)	12:43
* couf feels a new wave coming :)		12:44
quaid	ii. Work on managing the wiki as "gardeners" with one person designated to make the project happen (the Wiki Gardener), and make that a tame and happy place for all, however that has to happen. This includes resolving MediaWiki to work with Transifex and whatever.	12:44
stickster	As for (i.), 100% agreed... but we need to make this a clear point on the ML, so volunteer contributors don't wonder why old guys aren't chomping at the bit to work on "new" guides over the next N months.	12:45
quaid	iii. Push all DocBook XML guides out to be stand-alone projects on fedorahosted.org to use whatever toolchain they want; we can continue the docs-common tools (within fh.o?) and decide to swap in or make publican optional.	12:45
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jsmith	stickster: +1	12:45
stickster	oops, I interrupted, sorry :-\	12:45
quaid	iii.b Decide the best fate for the release notes in a separate discussion; cf. docs-common as well	12:45
stickster	agreed	12:45
quaid	um, I think that's it	12:45
quaid	did I miss anything?	12:45
quaid	(in summary, that is)	12:46
couf	I don't think so, all good	12:46
quaid	then we can do a quick bit of "last discussion" and voite	12:46
quaid	so, to proceed	12:46
jmbuser	s/voite/vote	12:46
stickster	with respect to my previous point... I was trying to say...	12:46
quaid	stickster made a bit of discussion there, +1 to making it clear on mailing list and all over	12:46
stickster	a message to say "Here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it" beyond the meeting minutes, etc.	12:47
quaid	jmbuser: perogativeo f the leader today to just let typos fly :D	12:47
stickster	But 'nuff said	12:47
quaid	stickster: +1, also blogs, and direct chats	12:47
stickster	disco	12:47
* glezos discussed Tx with the MW guys at FOSDEM		12:47
quaid	it's also part of the "we're about to fuck with your wiki, heads up!" campaign	12:47
quaid	glezos: ooh?!	12:47
stickster	glezos: Cool, hope you saw my pitches up above ;-)	12:47
jmbuser	One refinement - a landscaping crew with a chief, instead of a wiki gardener	12:48
glezos	there is a sketchy mechanism for PO extraction, but only for the UI. AFAIK, the content can't be exported into POs. I might have missed something though.	12:48
stickster	Now that we know OpenSuSE would also benefit from this, there's some cross-distro goodness for you	12:48
stickster	I'm thinking, maybe I should email Zonker to find out if they have any ideas and/or resources to contribute.	12:48
jmbuser	hack the wiki, hack the wiki	12:48
couf	stickster: +1	12:48
quaid	jmbuser: explain your distinction?	12:48
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quaid	jmbuser: in wiki gardener v. wiki landscaper	12:49
stickster	glezos: Are you talking about a bulit-in MW capability?	12:49
jmbuser	quaid: wiki gardener sounds like a lonely job	12:49
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jmbuser	chief garderner with apprentices is better	12:49
glezos	stickster: yes. Not sure if a proper PO-extraction layer exists for content.	12:50
* Sparks volunteers to be the guy on those cool stand-up lawn mowers		12:50
stickster	glezos: Have you seen pootle's tools?	12:50
stickster	http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/txt2po	12:50
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-!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster		12:50
quaid	jmbuser: in my mind, it is mental preparation for being the one who gets all the hot compost landing on them when the other subprojects let fly	12:50
glezos	stickster: yes. I was talking about Mediawiki in particular. Not just a converter, but a built-in capability in MW to extract and manage PO files.	12:50
jmbuser	stickster has left the building	12:51
glezos	BTW -- I would *love* to work on something like this at some point in the future.	12:51
jmbuser	...or not	12:51
* glezos still reading the log		12:51
stickster	Aw crap.	12:52
* stickster remembers Ctrl+R means something very specific in xchat-gnome.		12:52
glezos	mmcgrath: with the GSoC, I'll be working on abstraction layers in Tx to make it able to receive and submit content from various tools (eg. submit via https or even plain email instead of ssh)	12:52
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mmcgrath	glezos: excellent.	12:52
stickster	glezos: Right -- would it work for Tx to check out POT by using something like pootle's txt2po against a MW revision, then doing po2txt and pushing it back into MW?	12:52
stickster	err.. well, you get my drift.	12:53
jmbuser	undoubtedly :-)	12:53
glezos	stickster: The challenge would be to implement a PO manager inside MW. After that, Tx can take those PO files quite easily.	12:53
stickster	glezos: never mind, you just answered my previous question.	12:53
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quaid	ok, we are adrift	12:54
quaid	to the points above, a quick show of hands:	12:54
* stickster gets out of the way of the rudder.		12:54
Sparks	+1	12:54
quaid	i. FDSCo agrees to change the order of things thusly ...	12:54
stickster	+1 to i, ii, and iii.	12:55
couf	+1	12:55
jmbuser	+1 to all - change is good	12:55
quaid	whee!	12:55
quaid	+1 from me	12:55
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 107 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 106 normal]		12:55
couf	and thats ratified :)	12:55
stickster	So unanimously we've pretty much changed the nature of the Docs Project for the future.	12:55
quaid	but wait, there's more!	12:55
stickster	Pretty good for an hour's work	12:55
quaid	glezos, jsmith	12:55
glezos	+1	12:56
stickster	You can cut a tin can with them!	12:56
jmbuser	genzu knives?	12:56
jsmith	+1	12:56
quaid	then that is unanimous unless I'm stupidly forgetting someone	12:56
couf	quaid: bob	12:56
-!- mether_ [n=ask@59.160.127.177] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]		12:56
quaid	EvilBob is not here but here?	12:56
jmbuser	EvilBob: ping	12:57
couf	well Sparks jumped in his place, so .. :)	12:57
quaid	Sparks: I saw you comment a bit earlier ...	12:57
quaid	heh	12:57
-!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD176F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #fedora-meeting		12:57
quaid	ok, yes, I see :)	12:57
quaid	just making sure we adequately	12:57
quaid	addressed the idea of continuing content work	12:57
quaid	(e.g. Sec Guide :)	12:58
quaid	ok, rock on	12:58
quaid	two minutes	12:58
quaid	elections?	12:58
* quaid looks at the pages		12:58
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo - two minutes for election discussion		12:58
* stickster makes motion to push this until next week		12:58
quaid	that's what it seems to be like	12:58
* stickster selfish because he's about to get on the phone :-\		12:58
* stickster backs away		12:58
quaid	and the channel has a turnover	12:59
jsmith	I second the motion	12:59
quaid	ok, let's push this topic to the next meeting	12:59
couf	yep, push back	12:59
jmbuser	+1	12:59
quaid	and catch up on #fedora-docs to refresh ourselves on the elections :)	12:59
quaid	and be out of here in 5	12:59
quaid	4	12:59
quaid	3	12:59
quaid	2	12:59
quaid	1	12:59
quaid	</meeting>	12:59

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