QA/Meetings/20071114

IRC Transcript

-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting (1500UTC)		<a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a>
wwoods	rdieter, nirik, mether, rmw, Lovechild: ping	<a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a>
wwoods	and f13 / jeremy / other multi-diciplinary folks: also ping	<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
rdieter	here (kinda sorta)	<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
f13	yo	<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
wwoods	rdieter: cool	<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Schedule changes for F9		<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
wwoods	So yes - I'm writing an email to fedora-test-list about the proposed changes	<a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a>
wwoods	to make sure everyone's aware (there was brief mention of it last month but I still hear references to "test1" etc)	<a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a>
wwoods	Is everyone aware of / cool with the propose changes/schedule?	<a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a>
wwoods	those are <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/DevelopmentChangesProposal">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/DevelopmentChangesProposal</a>	<a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a>
wwoods	and <a href="http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9-tasks-overview.html">http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9-tasks-overview.html</a>	<a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a>
wwoods	the only thing I've found that I'm still unsure about is that the Alpha release is still two months after Final	<a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a>
f13	wwoods: the Alpha was an idea to have /something/ that is known to at least be installable as a jump off point for the development cycle.	<a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a>
wwoods	right	<a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a>
f13	but we don't care much about other than it installing and getting updates afterward, so we're not doing a blocking freeze for it.  it's just a named snapshot	<a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a>
f13	(with a little extra time to make sure it happens)	<a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a>
wwoods	like I said, in the past we've gottin (deserved) bad press for putting out a half-baked release that lacks most of the stuff promised	<a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a>
wwoods	I think calling it "Alpha" and increasing awareness that test releases are just rawhide snapshots is good	<a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a>
wwoods	but also - sanity check - there's more time for rawhide development now than in previous cycles, right?	<a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a>
f13	yes	<a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a>
f13	there is no blocking freeze for test1, that adds a week~ there	<a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a>
wwoods	now that we're doing the early branching and such the devs actually get some time before F8 final to work on stuff	<a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a>
f13	plus add to that the amount of time we early branched and branched during F8 that added a month~	<a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a>
wwoods	yeah, that's reasonable. I do think we're already seeing serious progress in f9 rawhide	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
wwoods	a lot moreso than previous ones	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
wwoods	as long as we believe that to be the intended effect of process changes and not just a happy fluke	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
rdieter	folks realize they can't wait (me included). :)	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
wwoods	then I'm happy relying on that	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
f13	yeah	<a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a>
f13	I do want to better deal with a month+ of buildup for that first rawhide build.	<a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a>
f13	eventually I want to get to the piont where during teh final freeze, we're composing the release tree to a different location, and letting Rawhide continue on to the next release.	<a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a>
wwoods	my only other comment about the schedule: I'm gonna be doing family stuff the week of PR1, so I need someone to take the bug-herding hat while I'm gone	<a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a>
wwoods	f13: that would be totally sweet.	<a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a>
f13	We'll use mirror manager to do some fun redirects for us to try and capture most people for release testing,  you'd have to opt-out and into Rawhide again to get those bits.	<a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a>
f13	wwoods: I don't think we can realistically get there for 9, but maybe !10	<a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a>
wwoods	so we're planning on doing the repo shuffle to pin rawhide to the final release again?	<a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a>
wwoods	(I liked that a lot)	<a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a>
f13	yes, I liked that too	<a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a>
f13	we'll better plan it to avoid zomg no signed packages.	<a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a>
wwoods	can you make sure that gets on the schedule and do an announcement so people know when it's coming	<a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a>
f13	yes	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
wwoods	yeah, exactly	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
wwoods	any other comments about the schedule changes? one less test release to test, yay	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
f13	well, if we have a signing server and are automatically signing things with a key, that should take care of itself.	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
f13	they'll at least have /a/ key.	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
wwoods	rdieter: when is kde4 stuff landing? in time for F9Alpha?	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
f13	wwoods: I'm pretty sure you're going to have one less arch to care about.	<a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a>
f13	wwoods: but the tradeoff looks to be one more install method.	<a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a>
rdieter	wwoods: we're about 35% there roughly now, should get most of it in by then (cross fingers)	<a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods	here's hopin'	<a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods	some QA-specific stuff to discuss	<a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods	I don't think we're gonna create bugzilla versions for alpha/beta	<a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a>
wwoods	the reasoning is: Test Releases Are Rawhide Snapshots	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
f13	srsly?	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
f13	are we going to remove all the existing ones?	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
wwoods	so report your dang bugs against 'rawhide'	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
wwoods	I'd like to, yes	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
wwoods	but I may be a bit overzealous here	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
f13	I'm on board if we remove the existing ones, otherwise we're just going to get a bunch of misfires.	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
f13	(and people filing bugs about there being no version to file bugs against)	<a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a>
wwoods	I'm amazed at how many bugs we get filed against 'f6test3' still	<a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a>
wwoods	seriously? f6test3?	<a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a>
* wwoods shakes head		<a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a>
* poelcat +1 to removing all the unneeded versions		<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
f13	wwoods: actually I think by some twist of fuckness, a brand new bugzilla user creating a new bug for Fedora gets f6test3 as the default version :/	<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods	f13: I think you're right	<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods	but I don't know why	<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
f13	wwoods: we really need to make sure that brand new users get the right version, but I don't know how to fix that	<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods	I'll follow up with dkl about that	<a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a>
wwoods	probably assume (latest stable) unless their browser tells us otherwise	<a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a>
wwoods	further about rawhide: I've proposed changing the 'devel' version to 'rawhide'	<a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a>
wwoods	which I think is only sensible	<a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a>
poelcat	wwoods: are you going to talk to him about removing the extra versions too? I don't mind working with dkl to merge everything	<a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a>
wwoods	but there's a further proposal which suggests that we name releases at the *start* of the cycle and use that name instead of "rawhide"	<a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a>
f13	wwoods: I don't think that should effect bugzilla	<a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a>
wwoods	so we'd call it "werewolf" as a codename up until release, and then the name would change to F8	<a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a>
f13	wwoods: the only reasonable rational I heard for naming early was so that artwork and such can be made to fit before deadlines.	<a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a>
wwoods	right, it just makes it a little confusing as there'd be no "werewolf" version in bz	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
rdieter	and marketing...	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
f13	we may also use the codename as the pre-release staging directory as well.	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
poelcat	but then you have to keep monkeying with bugzilla	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
wwoods	well, it helps with marketing/branding as well	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
f13	but I'm still very much in the 'file it against Rawhide' camp.	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
poelcat	couldn't the bugzilla start page help this?	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
poelcat	or is that project dead?	<a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a>
rdieter	maybe use bz label something like f8-werewolf ?  then, no renaming is required.	<a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods	well, we want to avoid the ambiguity of having "f8" and "f8-werewolf"	<a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a>
rdieter	ok	<a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods	it's possible we could segment off rawhide this way	<a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a>
wwoods	have rawhide (moonshine), rawhide (werewolf), ...	<a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a>
f13	eeew	<a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a>
wwoods	but.. yeah	<a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a>
wwoods	poelcat: bugzilla start page is still a good idea - we even have bugz.fedoraproject.org	<a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a>
wwoods	which, while having a silly name, has useful redirects	<a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a>
wwoods	e.g. try <a href="http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/yelp">http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/yelp</a>	<a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a>
rdieter	kewl	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods	so having a front page on that site (rather than having it redirect straight to regular bz) could be useful	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
Lovechild	oh that will come in handy.. still not optimal but way better than what I do currently	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods	that also gives you links to the bodhi/koji/pkgdb pages for that package	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods	it's pretty nice	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods	heh	<a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a>
wwoods	anyway I think probably playing silly games with bugzilla versions and rawhide is not the most useful thing	<a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a>
wwoods	more useful would just be spending more time triaging and recruiting/training more triagers	<a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a>
poelcat	wwoods: i'll file a ticket with dkl's group to merge all the versions and change devel to rawhide... posting to fedora-devel first	<a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a>
wwoods	poelcat: awesome, that'd be great. thank you.	<a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a>
* poelcat was also wondering if we should put some bug days on the schedule		<a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a>
rdieter	yes!	<a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a>
poelcat	plan them in advance	<a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a>
wwoods	oh sure!	<a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a>
wwoods	what day of the week would be best?	<a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a>
poelcat	which would give us incentive to clean up bugzilla, get start page tweaked, and other howto file bugs docs cleaned up	<a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a>
Lovechild	sounds way to sane.. everyone knows that frantically crying in the last minute is a far superior plan	<a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a>
wwoods	and who can cover .eu / .au	<a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a>
wwoods	by the way, the F8-thisweek bug link is in the topic for #fedora-qa: <a href="http://rdr.to/gc">http://rdr.to/gc</a>	<a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a>
Lovechild	I'm .eu citizen, I guess that means I volunteer	<a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a>
rdieter	frantic_crying: +1 :)	<a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods	(407 new bugs on F8 this week.. weeeeee)	<a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a>
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Bug Days		<a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a>
rdieter	spin: more users -> more feedback/bugs.  yay	<a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a>
wwoods	indeed!	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
Lovechild	yeah could be worse... could be zero bugs	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
poelcat	fridays?	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
wwoods	a lot of these bugs are simple things - nvidia (CLOSED CANTFIX), stuff on the CommonBugs page	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
wwoods	bad CD burns, etc	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
poelcat	not ever friday, but is friday a good day?	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
wwoods	Friday's OK with me	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
poelcat	how about first one on 30-NOV ?	<a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a>
wwoods	I should do some metrics on bug reporting and figure out whether people do them over the weekend or during the week more	<a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a>
wwoods	I should *also* figure out a way to keep score on bug triaging etc. like GNOME does	<a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a>
f13	Since we do snapshot releases on Fridays, do you want to do them on Monday?	<a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a>
wwoods	f13: that's sensible	<a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a>
poelcat	then we smack down the easy stuff right away	<a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a>
f13	gives people a chance to pick up the latest snapshot over the weekend and verify	<a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a>
Lovechild	f13: that seems like a good idea, give people the weekend to download and burn the snapshot - if they hit bad bugs we are there to triage on mondays	<a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a>
wwoods	yeah, my gut feeling is that bug reporting goes up on the weekends (and triaging goes down)	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
poelcat	on the other hand friday i could pay more attention than on friday	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
poelcat	than on monday	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
wwoods	so Monday makes some sense	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
Lovechild	unless you want to dedicate your weekend to Fedora as well :)	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
poelcat	both sounds interesting, but probably too ambitious	<a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a>
wwoods	let's start with Mondays	<a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a>
wwoods	and if it really starts to pick up steam we can talk about adding Friday	<a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a>
Lovechild	maybe this needs a nice little page telling people to download the snapshot over the weekend and please join us on IRC monday?	<a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a>
wwoods	bug triage is an art, but it can be taught.. we need to create some teaching tools and stuff	<a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a>
* poelcat votes for starting on 19-NOV		<a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a>
lmacken	wwoods: bugday!	<a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a>
poelcat	wwoods: all we need is wiki pages to start	<a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a>
wwoods	poelcat: indeed	<a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a>
poelcat	wwoods: if you can send me the existing page URLs I'll include with my post about changing the versions in bz	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
Lovechild	and a nice call for help on -test	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
poelcat	and announce bug day at the same time	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
wwoods	poelcat: existing pages for what, triage stuff? there's bugzapper stuff in the wiki	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
wwoods	long-untouched	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
* wwoods sad about that, but making amends		<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: definitely	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
poelcat	wwoods: whatever makes sense to point people to in order to get started with bug triage... read up in advance	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
wwoods	okay, quick vote: Bug Days on Mondays, starting 19-nov-2007	<a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a>
f13	+1	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
lmacken	+1	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
rdieter	+1	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
Lovechild	+1	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
* wwoods +1, obvy		<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
wwoods	okay, if no one is opposed..?	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
poelcat	+1	<a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a>
wwoods	decided: Bug Days on Mondays, starting 19-nov-2007	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
lmacken	I think the coolest part about our last big bug day was that we had incentives/prizes	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
wwoods	poelcat: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers</a> is a good place to start	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
wwoods	lmacken: which one was that?	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
Lovechild	lmacken: bribing people.. excellent idea	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
lmacken	The first one I think?  Jack put it on.	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
lmacken	2 years ago	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
poelcat	wwoods: what IRC channel will we hold it in?	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
wwoods	But how did you measure performance?	<a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a>
wwoods	poelcat: #fedora-qa, I think	<a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a>
lmacken	bz activity :)	<a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a>
lmacken	I just pinged jack to try and get more details	<a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a>
lmacken	hopefully we can get him on board with it again	<a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a>
wwoods	yeah, I'm curious about how you weight scoring for closing bugs vs. reassigning things to the proper places vs. other triaging stuff	<a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a>
wwoods	I'd love to have an automated system watching that stuff and keeping score	<a href="#t10:41" class="time">10:41</a>
wwoods	once we get pretty good at keeping score we can start giving prizes	<a href="#t10:41" class="time">10:41</a>
wwoods	but then you have incentive for people to game the system and blecch	<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
wwoods	anyway, I'd rather have that problem to worry about than the "nobody triages bugs and everything sucks" problem	<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
wwoods	oh, quick diversion	<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
Lovechild	well I suspect it will be easy to just make a decision as to bug zapper of the week manually for the first while	<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | fedora-qa-list		<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: ooh, good point	<a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a>
Lovechild	all this statistics crap is likely overkill for the first long time	<a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a>
wwoods	I'm proposing (officially) that we close fedora-qa-list and move qa discussion to -test-list or -devel-list as appropriate	<a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a>
wwoods	the spam:post ratio for -qa-list is something like 15:1	<a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a>
* wwoods filters all the spam. it ain't pretty		<a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a>
lmacken	I think we should kill the test update notifications as well.. or at least throw them somewhere other than test-list	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
poelcat	lmacken: +1	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
lmacken	I'm planning on teaching bodhi about RSS feeds this week	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods	yeah, agreed	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
Lovechild	we can reopen the list if it's grows or the qa stuff drowns on the other lists?	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: absolutely	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods	mostly it would just save me some maintenance/admin time	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
poelcat	wwoods: can you simply disable it so it can be brought back if desired?	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
Lovechild	I'm some what worried about the trade off in terms of requiring qa people to read high volume lists	<a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a>
wwoods	poelcat: that's a good thought, I'll look into that	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods	well, I think qa people should definitely be on -test-list	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods	-devel-list is optional IMHO	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods	if we can get the notifications off -test-list that would be even better	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
Lovechild	I'm on both and keeping on top of it all is rather a big task	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: agreed	<a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a>
wwoods	I skim the headers now and then but I generally don't read them in detail	<a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a>
wwoods	FWN is a great help in this regard	<a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a>
Lovechild	I imagine people with less time to waste than me would be dissuaded from doing QA by it	<a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a>
f13	oh yeah, does anybody think having testing update notifications go to test-list is a good idea?	<a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: do you think it would be reasonable if you were just on -test-list and the automatic notifications were moved?	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
f13	I think we can get them fed oout via rss instead.	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
lmacken	RSS + anonymous feedback in bodhi	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
wwoods	f13: I think having them go *somewhere* is a good idea, but -test-list isn't the place	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
poelcat	send them to fedora-qa-list	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
poelcat	;-)	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
wwoods	ha	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
wwoods	yeah maybe I'll lock it down so only automated stuff can mail -qa-list	<a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a>
Lovechild	the update messages really should go on -test so people can easily comment on them.. not that they seem to do so.	<a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a>
wwoods	and we can move the notifications there	<a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a>
Lovechild	but it's probably no worse than asking people to subscribe to a second mailing list.. using -test and -devel does have the upside of having greater visibility	<a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a>
wwoods	yeah, I think the update notifications are just noise	<a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a>
wwoods	esp. if we have anonymous commenting in bodhi	<a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a>
f13	yeah, I think the feedback needs to be done in bodhi, not the list	<a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a>
lmacken	update feedback in bodhi, bugs in bugzilla.. then what is left for test-list?  questions?	<a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a>
wwoods	questions, discussion, planning	<a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a>
lmacken	ah gotcha.. yeah, esp if qa-list is going away	<a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a>
Lovechild	I like -test for early warning, basic bug confirmation	<a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a>
wwoods	the *useful* stuff that goes on in -test-list these days	<a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods	yeah	<a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods	it's a good place for testers to be like "have you guys seen this?"	<a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods	a future feature for triaging is going to be adding tags to the whiteboard field	<a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a>
wwoods	so we can have an auto-updated page of Current Hot Bugs / Common Dupes / etc	<a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a>
Lovechild	also having a list keeps the social aspect of QA intact which is always nice	<a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a>
wwoods	yeah, the social aspect is important	<a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a>
wwoods	so, yes, we'll keep -test-list as the qa discussion group	<a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a>
Lovechild	I mean I wouldn't be doing QA if it wasn't fun and wwoods didn't boost my massively inflated ego occasionally	<a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a>
wwoods	move update notifications to -qa-list or drop entirely?	<a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a>
lmacken	+1 for dropping	<a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a>
Lovechild	couldn't they be just an rss feed - seems more like the thing to do, encourage mildly couragous testers to run with updates-testing enabled	<a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a>
wwoods	Lovechild: oh, there's no question about the RSS feed	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
lmacken	RSS and bodhi --testable / bodhi -s testing should suffice	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
wwoods	maybe we'll drop the update notifications when we get RSS support in bodhi?	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
lmacken	sounds good	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
lmacken	I'm planning to do that hopefully today or tomorrow	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
lmacken	along with making it public	<a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a>
wwoods	making bodhi public? rad. how long 'til anon commenting? or.. actually I guess we don't *need* that immediately	<a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a>
wwoods	what group(s) do you need to be in to comment in bodhi?	<a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a>
lmacken	there's a TurboGears captcha widget that i'm going to try and use	<a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a>
wwoods	that'd be a good way of tracking who's in QA	<a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a>
wwoods	ah nice	<a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a>
wwoods	yeah, allowing anon commentary would be very good	<a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a>
lmacken	and bodhi keeps people in the loop as well.. if you've commented on an update, you'll be notified of all other comments/changes	<a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a>
wwoods	okay, so: shut -qa-list and stop update notifications on -test-list once we have RSS support in bodhi	<a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a>
f13	wwoods: sounds like a great Trac ticket set 9:	<a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a>
f13	(:	<a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a>
f13	wwoods: we have a rel-eng Trac now, filing a ticket for making those things happen (minus the email list shut down) would be awesome.	<a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a>
wwoods	cool, will do	<a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a>
wwoods	Oh! crud. I'm out of town next week - grandmother's memorial / thanksgiving	<a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a>
wwoods	so I won't be around Monday for Bug Day	<a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a>
Lovechild	I'm sure we can cover for you	<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
poelcat	wwoods: i'll be around	<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
wwoods	awesome	<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
wwoods	I'll try to pop in if I get some internets but it's not likely	<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
wwoods	okay. anything else?	<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Open Floor		<a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a>
lmacken	<a href="https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/bodhi/wiki/CLI#Viewingwhattestingupdatesyouhaveinstalled">https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/bodhi/wiki/CLI#Viewingwhattestingupdatesyouhaveinstalled</a>	<a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a>
lmacken	we should encourage people to use it! :)	<a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a>
wwoods	Okay then! I'm gonna mail -test-list about development changes and Bug Day, and file a ticket about killing notifications on -test-list	<a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a>
lmacken	easy way to see what you could be testing, and provide useful information to us	<a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a>
wwoods	poelcat was going to talk to dkl about getting rid of Fntestn versions	<a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a>
wwoods	(and we're not gonna use 'em in the future)	<a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a>
wwoods	bug days are Mondays, starting Nov. 19	<a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a>
wwoods	we're closing -qa-list	<a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a>
wwoods	I think that's all the decisions we made?	<a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a>
f13	wwoods: fwiw I think you need to run your bugzilla changes through FESCo	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
wwoods	oh, and I guess we're officially endorsing the proposed changes?	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
wwoods	f13: okay then	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
poelcat	i think periodic bug days, but not every monday	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
Lovechild	indeed.. oh and can we finally get that ics calendar for qa activity?	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
poelcat	Lovechild: yes, I can do those in taskjuggler	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
poelcat	but I need items for the schedule :)	<a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a>
wwoods	I think I had a google calendar at some point	<a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a>
wwoods	poelcat: meetings on Wednesdays at 1500UTC, Bug Days.. let's say every other Monday, for now?	<a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a>
poelcat	Lovechild: <a href="http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9.ics">http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9.ics</a>	<a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a>
poelcat	wwoods: i was thinking announce one at a time to create some buzz	<a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a>
wwoods	and then there's things like freezes and snapshot releases	<a href="#t11:06" class="time">11:06</a>
wwoods	poelcat: nice. yeah, let's do that.	<a href="#t11:06" class="time">11:06</a>
wwoods	Okay then, I don't want to take any more of your time, so.. thanks folks!	<a href="#t11:07" class="time">11:07</a>

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