QA/Meetings/20131216

Attendees

• adamw (155)
• cmurf (55)
• Viking-Ice (55)
• handsome_pirate (30)
• danofsatx (19)
• sgallagh (16)
• nirik (16)
• roshi (15)
• jreznik (9)
• zodbot (7)
• satellit (6)
• tflink (5)
• Martix (4)
• robatino (3)
• masta (1)
• anhhct (1)
• pwhalen (1)
• satellit_e (1)

Agenda

• Previous meeting follow-up
• Fedora 20 recap
• Fedora 21 planning
• Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

• adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums - that was done

Fedora 20 recap

• Fedora 20 is signed off - thanks to all testers!
• We dissected the then-known major bugs in the release
• All major known bugs were documented at Common_F20_bugs

Fedora 21 planning

• Project-wide, planning is blocking on Fedora.next until the WGs report to FESCo in January; this makes QA planning for Fedora 21 mostly impossible until then
• FESCo has declared that Fedora 21 will not be released any earlier than late August 2014 (may be later)

Action items

• adamw to push the sanity check proposal out, group seems to approve
• adamw to check F19 and F18 commonbugs for issues that should be copied to F20

IRC Log

adamw	#startmeeting Fedora QA meeting	16:17
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Dec 16 16:17:15 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	16:17
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	16:17
roshi	lol	16:17
adamw	#meetingname fedora-qa	16:17
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	16:17
jreznik	ooh!	16:17
roshi	there's that	16:17
adamw	#topic Roll call	16:17
adamw	oh lookit that, it works	16:17
adamw	it's the power of pure imagination!	16:17
* roshi is here		16:17
roshi	it was afraid of being left out	16:17
adamw	who's here for QA magic time, folks?	16:17
* tflink is here		16:17
* masta waves		16:17
adamw	#chair roshi masta jreznik	16:17
zodbot	Current chairs: adamw jreznik masta roshi	16:17
* Viking-Ice is here		16:17
roshi	once the humans start having their own meetings....	16:17
* danofsatx is present and mostly accounted for		16:17
* pwhalen is here		16:17
* nirik is here.		16:18
* jreznik is here		16:18
nirik	ride the wave!	16:18
adamw	phew, there go all the smelly people	16:18
* handsome_pirate waves		16:18
* cmurf is somewhere		16:18
adamw	did we lose anyone? say something if we lost you	16:18
* sgallagh hangs about		16:18
nirik	I'm lost. :)	16:18
Viking-Ice	quickly assign tasks assign tasks!!!	16:18
* handsome_pirate hops down from the Crows Nest		16:19
adamw	_ #action Viking-Ice do everything	16:19
adamw	like that?	16:19
handsome_pirate	+1	16:19
Viking-Ice	adamw, I'm still here so no...	16:19
adamw	OH HEY i didn't see you there	16:19
zodbot	adamw fires cmurf_	16:19
* Martix is here		16:19
cmurf	oh finally	16:19
adamw	haha, morning zodbot	16:19
adamw	cmurf: yeah, there's THAT shoe	16:19
adamw	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	16:20
adamw	#info "adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums" - this was done, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-December/119513.html	16:20
adamw	yes, i'm so goddamn awesome that after three weeks i finally managed to write a lousy test case	16:20
zodbot	adamw fires nirik	16:20
adamw	one of these days i'll get around to adding satellit_'s sugar tests to the desktop validaiton page :/	16:21
adamw	did anyone have a minute to look at the draft yet? robatino, you're the sanity testing guy?	16:21
robatino	looks okay to me	16:21
danofsatx	I looked at it...	16:21
handsome_pirate	adamw: It's been about two years since I've written a Fedora test case, I guess I'm due	16:21
robatino	note that when i test lives, it actually includes both lives and spins	16:21
cmurf	"cmurf left the chat room. (*.net *.split)" Ummm noo, i'm right here.	16:22
handsome_pirate	lol @ topic change	16:22
adamw	robatino: i basically split the 'targets' up more or less by directory, smooshing arches together	16:22
roshi	looks good to me	16:22
* cmurf looked		16:22
adamw	if a different separation makes sense, do suggest it	16:22
adamw	also if i left out any deliverables	16:23
* handsome_pirate is satisfied		16:23
adamw	i _really_ feel the lack of a single page that lists out everything we're supposed to ship as part of a release	16:23
nirik	such a page is likely to change a lot for f21. ;)	16:23
cmurf	we need a new topic, again	16:23
roshi	yeah	16:23
adamw	ha. don't even joke	16:23
nirik	but we should definitely have one for then	16:23
adamw	oh boy	16:24
adamw	do i re-start meeting? who knows?	16:24
adamw	#topic Testing	16:24
adamw	oh hey, there we go.	16:24
adamw	so, is it OK if I go ahead and push this change out now? seems like everyone's on board	16:25
adamw	and if i don't push stuff through i tend to forget about it :)	16:25
cmurf	apparently this is an automated monday morning lesson in patience	16:25
adamw	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	16:25
cmurf	yes	16:25
adamw	#action adamw to push the sanity check proposal out, group seems to approve	16:26
adamw	#topic Fedora 20 recap	16:26
adamw	#info huge vote of thanks to everyone who helped with F20 validation, great job folks	16:27
Viking-Ice	I have not had time to review that sanity proposal	16:27
adamw	Viking-Ice: ah ok, i'll hold for now	16:27
adamw	Viking-Ice: yell if you have feedback	16:27
adamw	Viking-Ice: sorry, hard to keep track of who's responded and who hasn't with all the netsplitting :/	16:27
danofsatx	I looked at it, but don't feel I'm qualified yet to offer a vote.	16:28
danofsatx	maybe for F21, I'll have more of a clue.	16:28
Viking-Ice	we dont usualy vote on this stuff more like ack/nack gradually improve	16:28
Viking-Ice	patch approach	16:29
danofsatx	ok, let me rephrase.... s/a vote/any feedback	16:29
adamw	danofsatx: roger, thanks	16:30
adamw	so F20 is going out tomorrow	16:30
cmurf	gottseidank	16:30
adamw	i worked on the commonbugs page over the weekend, i think it's in fairly good shape: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs	16:30
* jreznik is looking		16:31
adamw	please, if anyone's aware of additional bugs that should be listed there, do add them, or mark the bug with the CommonBugs keyword	16:31
adamw	(that will cause those of us who check and add issues to commonbugs every so often to see it)	16:31
jreznik	adamw: for that unfortunate bug in dracut, docs guys are aware and removing it	16:31
adamw	i've just been made aware of serious issues using F20 as a FreeIPA server, so i'll add a note for that soon	16:31
* satellit https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=888307  ? DVD as repo when inserted?		16:31
adamw	satellit: i do wish we could get that fixed :/ it's probably not a bad thing to have on there indeed, can you throw CommonBugs keyword on it if it's not there already?	16:32
adamw	which reminds me...	16:32
satellit	k	16:32
Viking-Ice	is that not something the freeipa guys should have been adding themselves or?	16:32
adamw	#action adamw to check F19 and F18 commonbugs for issues that should be copied to F20	16:32
adamw	Viking-Ice: eh, it's not a settled thing - commonbugs isn't really owned by anyone and doesn't have any real policies associated with it, near as i can tell, it's just something everyone hopes happens	16:33
adamw	i tend to do a lot of the writing on it just because it's something i picked up doing, i don't mind adding new notes, it's always good to have people help though	16:33
satellit	done	16:34
adamw	satellit: thanks	16:34
Viking-Ice	adamw, the time it takes me to explain to you is the same time I could have spend writing it myself ;)	16:34
Viking-Ice	( as opposed to have you do it for me )	16:34
danofsatx	there was a 3-digit bug that came up in KDE channel the other day. it's 15 years old and not fixed yet...should we do something about that one?	16:34
* danofsatx is still looking for the bug in question		16:34
adamw	Viking-Ice: eh, if they knew what was going on, sure - it just came in through the RH mail chain, like "omg our feature is broken for f20! STOP THE RELEASE!"	16:34
robatino	.bug 998	16:34
zodbot	robatino: Bug 998 Network install/upgrade is unsafe, should check GPG signatures. - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=998	16:34
adamw	Viking-Ice: as opposed to, you know, testing it *before* we signed off on release :/	16:34
Viking-Ice	and you responded it's already out the door sucks to be you ;)	16:35
adamw	yup	16:35
danofsatx	yeah, that one ...thanks robatino	16:35
adamw	danofsatx: that one is...a greatest hit	16:35
adamw	danofsatx: you're not a true fedoran till you've had your first chat about #998 :P	16:35
danofsatx	well, then, I guess I'm official now, huh?  ;)	16:36
* nirik doesn't think that merits a common bugs... I mean, what would you say... "Still can't solve insolvable problems" :)		16:36
adamw	long story shorter, it's deceptively tricky to 'fix', at least if you take a sufficiently persnickety view of how it 'ought' to work. it's not really actually possible to 'fix' it without something like Secure Boot being enabled, according to some.	16:36
adamw	#info if you have a bug that you think is sufficiently common/serious to merit a commonbugs note, do add it to the page yourself (following instructions in teh page source) or throw a CommonBugs keyword at it	16:37
cmurf	wow a 15 year old bug	16:37
adamw	so, we do have a few brown paper bag issues for release time, probably good if everyone knows about them	16:38
cmurf	"Aliases:fidelitas-ex-nihilo, oldest-bug-evar"	16:38
adamw	so if anyone asks you know what to tell 'em	16:38
adamw	cmurf: i'm a fan of 'fidelitas ex nihilo', dunno which scholar came up with that	16:38
adamw	most notably, any install done to LVM thinp with the release package set (so DVD, live) will fail to boot	16:38
adamw	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs#lvm-thinp-fail for the instructions to avoid that	16:39
adamw	lots of people are probably going to be reporting incorrect yum errors about groups not existing, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs#yum-group-errors for that	16:39
adamw	(but then they'll be reporting that for f19 too)	16:39
adamw	and yeah, from my inbox this morning it sounds like running a FreeIPA server on F20 is a really bad idea at present	16:40
* satellit wish DVD could be used for livecd-tools remix repo and https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1043208 provide ksflaten .ks in spin-kickstarts		16:40
Martix	adamw: I use LVM thinp and I have to use older ..-300.. kernel to successfully boot	16:41
satellit	noted today the if install @sugar-desktop cannot find it when do yum update	16:41
adamw	#info Fedora 20 brown paper bag bugs: LVM thinp crash #1040669, yum group errors #1043207 #1014202 #1043221 #1043231, FreeIPA server LDAP attributes missing https://fedorahosted.org/389/ticket/47631	16:41
adamw	Martix: see the commonbugs note - update dracut and rebuild initramfs, should fix it	16:41
cmurf	Martix: it's unlikely the kernel, but the initramfs for that older kernel that makes it work	16:41
cmurf	i tested lvmthinp with -301 and it works if dracut builds a correct initramfs	16:42
adamw	of course, if everyone can blog / tweet / G+ / insert-favoured-propaganda-tool-here about the release that'd be great	16:42
Martix	I tried running dracut yesteday, is this in today's updates?	16:42
Viking-Ice	is it the classic bug of anaconda not rebuilding initramfs after install?	16:42
cmurf	Martix: no	16:42
cmurf	Martix: you have to revert to an older dracut	16:42
adamw	Martix: it was pushed stable late yesterday i think, been in updates-testing till then	16:42
adamw	Viking-Ice: no	16:43
cmurf	oops ok there we go	16:43
adamw	Viking-Ice: it's the bug 'dracut team completely broke dracut in RC1'	16:43
Martix	adamw: ok, thanks	16:43
adamw	Viking-Ice: I wrote a mail to the list about it	16:43
danofsatx	one of many.....	16:43
adamw	Viking-Ice: anaconda does re-generate the initramfs after install, now; but that's no good if harald broke initramfs generation for thinp :(	16:43
Viking-Ice	I need to expand my bug horizon to cover dracut as well	16:43
adamw	danofsatx: heh	16:43
cmurf	lvmthinp is that poor godforsaken ornery feature that just got beat up left and right the entire release	16:44
adamw	hehe	16:44
Viking-Ice	btrfs for the win!	16:44
adamw	thinp inside btrfs!	16:44
adamw	on raid!	16:44
adamw	on stilts! on the high wire!	16:44
cmurf	i can vouch for btrfs working on thinp virtual LVs	16:45
Viking-Ice	why....	16:45
cmurf	of up to 32TB on a 100GB disk	16:45
danofsatx	adamw: s/stilts/iscsi	16:45
cmurf	how else are you going to make a 32TB btrfs volume without buying a lot of drives?	16:45
Viking-Ice	danofsatx, nfsv4	16:45
Viking-Ice	not iscsi	16:45
Viking-Ice	;)	16:45
Viking-Ice	on top of glusterfs	16:45
adamw	and people thought my storage matrix was complete	16:46
adamw	this is the kind of stuff you actually wind up _thinking_ about if you sit down and try and draw one...	16:46
danofsatx	who said a crazy thing like that?	16:46
adamw	someone on the mailing list	16:46
adamw	or in my head. one of the two. i've been working hard lately.	16:46
handsome_pirate	adamw: I like btrfs	16:47
cmurf	yum cocktails, all weekend long	16:47
cmurf	i saw them	16:47
danofsatx	well, the only one that responded was cmurf....	16:47
adamw	so, aside from battening down the hatches for the yum bugs, anyone think of anything else we need to do to prep for release?	16:47
adamw	any steps that aren't in an sop and that i've forgotten?	16:47
handsome_pirate	adamw: I have btrfs on raid of scsi and san	16:47
adamw	danofsatx: oh yeah, it was an off-topic subthread of the desktop package set rework mails	16:47
danofsatx	k...I don't feel like re-reading them right now. ;)	16:48
cmurf	"Re: Criterion revision proposal: KDE default applications"	16:48
cmurf	that's the thread?	16:48
adamw	danofsatx: i don't blame you	16:48
adamw	cmurf: yeah, but it's split aacross three lists	16:48
adamw	i didn't expect it to be _quite_ so controversial	16:48
cmurf	oh piddle on the floor	16:48
adamw	since the blocker rejection was voted through in like 15 seconds. but eh	16:48
cmurf	what other two lists?	16:48
adamw	desktop@ and kde@	16:49
cmurf	and it's most controversial on which list?	16:49
adamw	i wouldn't worry about it, i obviously have more work to do on the more radical proposals	16:49
adamw	all of them? :P	16:49
Viking-Ice	the output from the WG lands on the WG	16:49
Viking-Ice	period	16:49
adamw	Viking-Ice: i wasn't even thinking about the WG stuff]	16:49
cmurf	please tell me you didn't suggest Manual Partitioning just be turned off, because if that's controversial we're screwed	16:50
adamw	cmurf: no, nothing like that	16:50
cmurf	ok so there's maybe hope i filter through them later	16:50
Viking-Ice	so DE ( anything ) is going out of our criteria into WG's own product critera	16:50
adamw	Viking-Ice: everyone else seems to be cheerfully assuming all this fedora.next stuff is actually going to happen for f21, which in my opinion is batshit crazy, but never mind	16:50
Viking-Ice	adamw, you know why that is right?	16:51
cmurf	batshit is great fertilizeer	16:51
adamw	Viking-Ice: i'm kind of working under the assumption it's all going to fall apart and/or be punted so we'll have a perfectly normal F21 release to worry about, but no-one else is on that page with me apparently. yet.	16:51
jreznik	adamw: we will see in January...	16:51
jreznik	but I'm with adamw...	16:51
tflink	yeah, I figure there's not much to worry about yet	16:51
adamw	tflink: well the thing that bugs me is that we can't do any planning, because it's all up in the air	16:51
tflink	well, not much point in worrying too much until we have anything concrete to work with	16:51
adamw	i can't get a proposal like this through because everyone's like 'OH BUT FEDORA NEXT!'	16:51
Viking-Ice	adamw, they have this glorious fuckup of halting Fedora until it's ready. It takes time for the WG's to to climb the elephant and duck tape the wings on it	16:51
adamw	sigh	16:51
cmurf	duct tape	16:52
* satellit don't forget the feather		16:52
Viking-Ice	the WG is an utter and total failure	16:52
cmurf	pronounced like duck tape	16:52
danofsatx	the brand name is Duck Tape.	16:52
cmurf	if only we had duck tape, to prevent ducks from exploding or something	16:52
adamw	the worst case scenario is fedora.next falls apart and fesco decides to go ahead and do a release four months later and we don't have time to go and fix these things properly so we get to go through f21 with the duct tape again	16:52
cmurf	haha really, a brand of duct tape called Duck Tape, brilliant	16:52
Viking-Ice	satellit I would not be surprised if that ends up being the output they just tar and feather it and throw it of a cliff	16:52
adamw	arbitrary live image size targets and suboptimal package sets and all the other stuff we could be fixing now	16:52
Viking-Ice	fly baby fly <sploink>	16:53
adamw	cmurf: the question of whether it's called duct tape or duck tape is only marginally less controversial than that wikipedia page about wrestling :P	16:53
adamw	Viking-Ice: haha, someone needs to gif that'	16:53
cmurf	oh i'm not looking at that wikipedia page ever never	16:53
adamw	so, ok	16:54
adamw	now we got our bellyaching done	16:54
cmurf	F21 is an unknown until January	16:54
cmurf	right?	16:54
handsome_pirate	adamw: phear	16:54
tflink	cmurf: at a minimum, yeah	16:54
adamw	#info please post any thoughts you have on lessons learned from F20 QA cycle to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_20_QA_Retrospective	16:54
adamw	and quickly:	16:54
cmurf	So either we get something coherent in January, or there will be a punt in January, right?	16:54
adamw	#topic Fedora 21 planning	16:54
handsome_pirate	adamw: I was under the impression from fesco that earlist f21 would land is September	16:55
adamw	cmurf: and yes, that's correct	16:55
handsome_pirate	Oh	16:55
handsome_pirate	That was perfect timing	16:55
adamw	handsome_pirate: that's assuming they make the decision in january...	16:55
* handsome_pirate dances		16:55
nirik	punt to what?	16:55
sgallagh	handsome_pirate: Yes, I was just digging up the FESCo ticket there.	16:55
jreznik	cmurf: yes and it's not going to happen earlier than the and of august	16:55
cmurf	F21 for horses vs F21 for unicorns	16:55
jreznik	s/and/end	16:55
adamw	#info Fedora 21 is up in the air on the basis of the fedora.next proposals until January	16:55
handsome_pirate	adamw: Come January, I'm going to point out to FESCo that we (QA) was promised 3 months, no matter hwat	16:55
handsome_pirate	s/hwat/what	16:56
adamw	#info we cannot do significant F21 planning until we know what the FESCo plan for the fedora.next stuff is, which will happen then	16:56
nirik	right.	16:56
sgallagh	https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178	16:56
adamw	#info F21 GA cannot come earlier than late August	16:56
jreznik	handsome_pirate: yep, that 3 months are in that outlined schedule	16:56
handsome_pirate	So, even if fedora.next dies, *we still get our three months*	16:56
cmurf	OK so whether F21 is standard magic or new magic, there's going to be a ~3 month retooling gap?	16:56
anhhct	guys i wanna know the fedora 20 counter on the project homepage is set based on which timezone? thanks!	16:57
adamw	so, yeah, i was hoping we'd be able to talk about various things we can do to try and plan a more organized workload for F21 cycle, but it's hard to cover a lot of that stuff when we don't know where fedora.next will go.	16:57
nirik	anhhct: try asking in #fedora-websites	16:57
handsome_pirate	anhhct: gmt, I believe	16:57
sgallagh	adamw: The intent was for the time between F20 and F21 planning to be made available for QA and Rel-eng to play catch-up on their automation efforts	16:57
adamw	sgallagh: yeah, I know	16:57
nirik	sgallagh: and to ramp up/work on new needs.	16:57
sgallagh	Yes	16:57
Viking-Ice	there is more then just automation that needs to be worked on < sigh>	16:57
* handsome_pirate notes that if we don't get that time, he does have enough pikes for FESCo		16:58
sgallagh	Viking-Ice: There's plenty that needs work. However automation is a big bang for the buck. It frees people up to work on those other things	16:58
adamw	sgallagh: what worries me slightly is the prospect that we end up saying 'well, fedora.next isn't ready yet but it sure will be soon, let's wait for it!' then in *february or march* the call comes 'yeah...no fedora.next, let's just do a quick release of the old stuff in august, we don't need to change anything because it all worked so well last time, right?'	16:58
nirik	handsome_pirate: it's already scheduled. Put yer pikes away. ;)	16:58
tflink	handsome_pirate: that seems a bit ... excessive	16:58
Viking-Ice	handsome_pirate, there is no use for us getting that time unless we can map out what to use it for	16:58
Viking-Ice	we have to wait for the wg sheningan output until we know what to use that time for	16:59
handsome_pirate	Viking-Ice: We have quite a bit of it mapped out already	16:59
nirik	adamw: I would be very against that... as I think others would be too.	16:59
adamw	well, that's good. i just like worst case scenarios.	16:59
sgallagh	adamw: I'll state on the record right now: my vote will not to be fewer than six months to deliver a "traditional" F21 release, if we choose that route.	16:59
handsome_pirate	adamw: That's why I have the pikes	16:59
cmurf	yeah it's commit or die in January	16:59
nirik	sgallagh: +1	16:59
cmurf	that's far enough out as it is	16:59
sgallagh	So if we decide in March that Fedora.next is F22, then the earliest you worry about is late 'September	17:00
Viking-Ice	adamw, I would not be surprised if that worst case scenario of yours comes to pass	17:00
adamw	so anyhoo, i doubt we have time to really discuss the big topic for this section either, i was thinking we could talk about what we can do with the criteria and validation tests to make things better for f21	17:00
adamw	but we've had an hour and that's probably a half hour topic	17:00
adamw	sgallagh: that'd be good.	17:00
sgallagh	Viking-Ice: Two FESCo members just stated, in writing, that this is not what we will ask for.	17:01
adamw	one thing we could knock off, though: does someone want to be the Test Day organizer for f21 cycle? i was thinking it'd be a good thing for roshi, but that's just an idea	17:02
cmurf	so is the time frame for F21 the same regardless of whether it's Fedora.next or Fedora.current?	17:02
Viking-Ice	sgallagh, I will believe it when I see it in actions things have been said and what has actually been done has contradict that	17:02
Viking-Ice	in the past	17:02
Viking-Ice	adamw, no organize tracker takes care of that	17:02
Viking-Ice	want a test day file a ticket	17:02
adamw	cmurf: the *minimum* frame is the same, anyway. presumably it's up to fesco to decide whether it thinks we should do 'fedora.next on fedora.old time', 'fedora.next but take longer for the initial release', or 'abort! abort! abort!'	17:02
Viking-Ice	first come first serve	17:02
Viking-Ice	roshi can just always take those tickets if he wants to ( or someone else )	17:03
adamw	Viking-Ice: someone has to read all the tickets, help people who need help to organize their event, reconcile dates, post the schedule, ensure the events actually run properly, post news about them...	17:03
adamw	Viking-Ice: well they don't *have* to, but it works out well if someone does	17:03
sgallagh	cmurf: We made a guarantee that nothing would come sooner than August, and based on the WG output might be granted additional time.	17:03
cmurf	adamw: so there's maybe a 50/50 chance there will be one release of Fedora in 2014	17:03
Viking-Ice	adamw, that someone can be anyone	17:03
Viking-Ice	and should be	17:03
adamw	cmurf: i am not, at this point, prepared to stick numbers on anything	17:03
cmurf	actually, it sounds like 100%	17:03
roshi	I like helping with the test days	17:04
cmurf	there seems to be no way in that timing for there to be more than one	17:04
adamw	Viking-Ice: sure, multiple people can always do it, just seems like from experience test days work best when someone steps up to make sure it always happens	17:04
nirik	cmurf: right, one release next year.	17:04
roshi	and I'm fine with just taking the tickets as Viking-Ice suggests	17:04
sgallagh	cmurf: That depends in part on the WG output and what defines Fedora releases going forward. There's been some chatter about the Base having a more rapid cycle, but we need to see where that goes.	17:04
adamw	Viking-Ice: but hey, your approach is the correct one in 'policy' terms i think, let's just say everyone please help out with test day stuff, and roshi will likely look to pick up a lot of them	17:04
Viking-Ice	adamw, as I said roshi can then always beat people grabbing those tickets	17:04
roshi	I don't think anyone needs to be beaten	17:05
roshi	:P	17:05
adamw	yeah, there isn't usually a stampede to trac :P	17:05
Viking-Ice	adamw, doing it this way leaves rooms for others to participate and learn in the process ( which you exclude if roshi or someone else own the process )	17:05
adamw	#info everyone please help out with test days as you can, roshi will look to make sure they aren't neglected	17:05
Viking-Ice	plus you cant depend on RH employees anyway so...	17:05
roshi	Viking-Ice: I don't want to own the process - or any process	17:06
cmurf	oh dear	17:06
Viking-Ice	roshi, nor should you	17:06
adamw	okay then	17:06
roshi	I jsut want to be able to help move things along, when and where they're needed :)	17:06
adamw	any other topics for f21 planning we can cover in the, er, negative six minutes we have left? :)	17:06
adamw	i guess we'll table the criteria/matrix stuff for next week	17:07
danofsatx	are we having a meeting next week?	17:07
danofsatx	it *is* two days before Christmas	17:07
roshi	yeah, which is a great time to pontificate on what ifs danofsatx	17:07
adamw	well, let's say 'next time'	17:07
cmurf	F21 planning: I don't know how to achieve this but I think it's inherently valuable to stick the final release date, as it's set once beta go has occurred.	17:08
Viking-Ice	you mean fake christmas with coca cola santa	17:08
adamw	but if people want to, we can	17:08
Viking-Ice	Yule (real christmas ) is on the 21 dec	17:08
adamw	cmurf: yeah, i would like that too, it's what i'm trying to work towards with these proposals	17:08
cmurf	yeah, a 2 week slip on beta is not the same as a 2 week slip of final	17:09
adamw	that's why i keep talking about how can we ensure things we want working at final are actually tested by beta	17:09
adamw	anyhoo, next time :)	17:09
handsome_pirate	Viking-Ice: If you think about it, that Jesus dude was likely born in August	17:09
cmurf	yes please	17:09
handsome_pirate	Viking-Ice: So, it's all fake :)	17:09
adamw	handsome_pirate: dec 21 is the winter solstice, the one inarguably significant event that happens during the period :)	17:10
adamw	no matter your calendar or creed...everyone notes the solstice	17:10
cmurf	we value the photons from our local star	17:10
adamw	#topic Open floor	17:11
adamw	anyone have something important that needs to be covered now?	17:11
adamw	(since we're over time, trivial stuff to the list or next time)	17:11
handsome_pirate	adamw: Indeed :)	17:11
* danofsatx plans trivial question for qa channel later		17:11
Viking-Ice	so post mortem release QA meeting on the 23	17:11
* handsome_pirate wonders why the year isn't shifted so that Jan 1 is on the solstice		17:12
Viking-Ice	danofsatx 42	17:12
handsome_pirate	lol	17:12
adamw	Viking-Ice: something like that...well, figure this was the post mortem, next week is the reanimation :P	17:13
cmurf	bring a cat	17:13
Viking-Ice	well we have 13 santa's so I bring one of the with me	17:13
* danofsatx wonders if the wife will miss her pure black devil of a feline		17:14
handsome_pirate	cmurf: cat?	17:14
Viking-Ice	or as we call them yule lads	17:14
Viking-Ice	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Lads	17:14
handsome_pirate	cmurf: I usually have my towel with me, but a cat?	17:14
cmurf	reanimations require at least one cat per reanimation, duh	17:14
Viking-Ice	ignore that coca cola dress they are wearing	17:15
Viking-Ice	on that wikipedia image	17:15
cmurf	ok so Rawhide is how raw usually?	17:15
satellit_e	Schrodinger's cat?	17:15
adamw	sounds like december is the ideal time of year to be a shoe thief in iceland	17:15
cmurf	is there at least one build a week that'll install and boot or what?	17:15
handsome_pirate	cmurf: Bring a towel	17:15
handsome_pirate	adamw: LOL	17:15
handsome_pirate	adamw: December is a bad time to be in Iceland	17:16
adamw	cmurf: installing rawhide is usually the dodgiest part, it's usually easier to install previous release and update to it	17:16
Viking-Ice	adamw, yeah if you only want to steal left shoes ;)	17:16
roshi	for remember, everyone should watch "Rare Exports" for christmas	17:16
adamw	cmurf: i fedup'ed to rawhide (first time i ever tried that) two days ago, went fine	17:16
sgallagh	adamw: That's one place where I've been trying to recommend some automation work.	17:16
cmurf	ok, and how about trying to blow up anaconda 21	17:16
nirik	yeah, once you are installed, it's usually fine... there's occasional breakage, but usually workaroundable until it gets fixed	17:16
adamw	sgallagh: which place?	17:16
sgallagh	Build into the composes that it should reject any build for which a simple 'minimal' install fails.	17:16
Viking-Ice	handsome_pirate, mid Janurary to end of February or early mars is a bad time to be in Icelands	17:16
adamw	sgallagh: well, it's not like we're unaware of the *place*.	17:17
nirik	sgallagh: we should circle back around to that... we had a good meeting or two on it. ;)	17:17
adamw	sgallagh: it's the *work* bit that's the tricky part.	17:17
sgallagh	nirik: Yes, that would be interesting.	17:17
adamw	sgallagh: once upon a time, a year or two ago, we had an autoqa test that did a kickstart-driven minimal install of fedora and reported the error if it failed.	17:17
sgallagh	adamw: Certainly. I'd like to hear more about that, because I'd like to be able to include a request for the time to accomplish that as part of our post-WG-report requests.	17:17
adamw	that took several months of work and stopped working soon after, because automated tests need care and feeding and we didn't have the time because we don't have enough people and we're on a release train...	17:17
adamw	anyhoo	17:18
Viking-Ice	adamw, have the WG write those automation test they need	17:18
adamw	we're now 18 mins over time, so i guess we'll be back next week :)	17:18
sgallagh	Viking-Ice: Build us a framework and we'll do our best.	17:18
adamw	we built two, take yer pick :P	17:18
Viking-Ice	or we adopt an existing one	17:18
adamw	thanks for coming, folks	17:19
adamw	#endmeeting	17:19

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