BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Jun-30

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-06-23

Agenda: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-June/msg00629.html

Attendees

• adamw (96)
• rjune_wrk (63)
• arxs (44)
• mcepl (38)
• LinuxCode (13)
• comphappy (13)
• SMParrish (9)
• poelcat (5)
• Viking-Ice (1)
• jlaska (1)

Meeting Recap

• topic - Triage Metrics - Update on the FAS integration and overall status.

Comphappy had FAS integration complete until some backend changes rolled through, this should be completed tonight. He'll have an update next week.

• topic - Component list update for the F12 cycle - Update on status.

Axrs completed the initial list, there was a overwhelming request for requirements information as well. he'll get that together for next meeting.

• topic - Kernel Triage - Discuss the feedback from Chuck Ebbert on kernel triage.

Chuck asked one specific question in his email: If there might be a different way to indicate a bug's been triaged rather than simply setting it to ASSIGNED? During the meeting on some of the available options were discussed, none were agreed upon. We will continue this in the mailing list. - this topic is also related to anaconda, and with members of the anaconda team present at the meeting we took the opportunity to discuss how we can better assist them.

• topic - Bugzilla Legend - Unify bugzilla defs between RHEL and Fedora

This was on the add to agenda page, but is apparently obsolete.

• topic - Debugging pages

Adamw has been discussing unified debugging proceedure with some Ubuntu developers. This could give both projects more help clarifying debugging procedures and insuring the proper information gets to the developers assigned to bugs.

• topic - Open Floor

Mecpl needs testers for a new version of the GreaseMonkey script

• Action Item - comphappy get the fas intigration working until next week, likely tonight, done for Triage Metrics
• Action Item - arxs will update the list with requirements iformation for next meeting.
• Action Item - adamw will update on collaboration with Ubuntu on debugging procedures.

IRC Transcript

rjune_wrk	#startmeeting	14:59
comphappy	Here for 10min	14:59
LinuxCode	here	14:59
SMParrish	here	14:59
rjune_wrk	meeting bot commands are found at #link http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot	15:01
arxs	hello guys	15:01
rjune_wrk	arxs: backup chair for me?	15:01
mcepl	/me	15:01
arxs	rjune_wrk: well	15:01
mcepl	no, not me!	15:02
arxs	mcepl: no worry, i take it :)	15:02
rjune_wrk	#chair arxs	15:02
rjune_wrk	#topic - Triage Metrics - Update on the FAS integration and overall status.	15:02
rjune_wrk	comphappy: make your quick announcement?	15:02
* poelcat here		15:03
* adamw here too		15:03
rjune_wrk	#chair adamw	15:03
arxs	hmm, maybe comphappy can't here us as the bus? :)	15:05
comphappy	Alright I had fas intigration working last night locally then added some features jlaska wanted that meddled with the backend db and the thing blewup on me I need to take a look tonight. I also got component groups working via fast.	15:05
comphappy	Phone slow to typeon	15:05
rjune_wrk	comphappy: any chance of it being finished by the next meeting?	15:05
comphappy	Likely tonight	15:05
rjune_wrk	barring more backend meddling? :-)	15:05
rjune_wrk	Anybody else have anything to add?	15:06
* poelcat		15:06
adamw	motion: quit listening to jlaska, he only causes trouble ;)	15:06
comphappy	Release is coming up soon it needs testing.	15:06
comphappy	adamw: Added rawhide features I think you willl like	15:07
poelcat	comphappy: how about the bugs/RFEs I filed?	15:07
adamw	comphappy: great work, thanks as always	15:07
comphappy	poelcat: At least a few are making it in	15:07
poelcat	cool, thanks!	15:08
rjune_wrk	Just for completeness, what is FAS an acronym for?	15:08
poelcat	comphappy: and thanks again for all your work on this	15:08
arxs	fedora account system	15:08
comphappy	Mostly this is features in the backend I am fixing. Ones that can't really be changed post release	15:09
arxs	you can find it on https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/	15:09
comphappy	But there are other fixes as well.	15:09
rjune_wrk	#link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/	15:09
* comphappy done talking		15:09
rjune_wrk	comphappy: go through the full list next week?	15:10
comphappy	rjune_wrk: Some no as they are fixes to other packages	15:10
rjune_wrk	good enough, thanks.	15:10
rjune_wrk	#topic - Component list update for the F12 cycle - Update on status.	15:10
rjune_wrk	arxs: your floor	15:11
arxs	#action comphappy get the fas intigration working until next week, likely tonight, done for Triage Metrics	15:11
arxs	ok, if send a mail to the f-t-l	15:11
comphappy	arxs: Looked like a good list to me	15:12
arxs	https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-June/msg00757.html	15:12
arxs	you can find the list at the wiki under https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/CPCL	15:12
arxs	comphappy: thanks	15:12
arxs	but one thing is maybe missing, a DE	15:12
adamw	does the proposal _remove_ any components?	15:12
arxs	adamw: it don't think to (you mean from the actually components and triagers list?)	15:13
adamw	yeah, does the new list miss any components that are on the old list	15:13
* comphappy off to quarterly review.		15:13
arxs	no, my plan is (sorry if this was not clear) to bug the CPCL list into the actually components and triagers list, so that we have at the end only more items	15:14
adamw	cya comphappy, thanks a gain	15:14
arxs	s/bug/get/	15:15
adamw	arxs: ah, ok. we don't want to grow forever, but that's probably good for this cycle, as we've been running out of components for new members :)	15:15
adamw	which is a good problem to have, heh	15:15
arxs	adamw: of course! :)	15:15
mcepl	these components are just symbolic names, right, you don't mean to test virtual components like xorg-x11-drivers for real?	15:16
adamw	in that case, looks good to me	15:16
adamw	some things we can pare; for xorg for instance we don't really need to consider _all_ drivers critical	15:16
mcepl	and I have never seen a bug against xorg-x11-xauth	15:17
arxs	mcepl: well, i think we should only take care of nouveau, radeon and intel	15:17
mcepl	the real drivers were is life are -ati, -intel, -nouveau, perhaps -vesa, to be sure	15:17
* SMParrish agrees		15:17
adamw	openchrome is worth caring about too	15:17
adamw	(just about)	15:17
mcepl	yeah, I am forgetting ... it is not managed by RH engineers	15:18
adamw	aside from that, even if they're totally broken we'd probably still ship :D	15:18
mcepl	well, let me not comment on that ;-)	15:18
adamw	but in general, looks good	15:18
mcepl	(just spent whole day plowing through -ati bugs)	15:18
arxs	ok, i going to remove xauth and change the xorg-drivers to ati, nouveau, intel and openchrome	15:19
adamw	we might not need to worry about the compose packages as there's a fairly tight loop there between the guys building and the guys using	15:19
adamw	that's pungi, mash et al	15:19
arxs	that was also my feeling about, i think we should cut off the list after the line 'The following items are unchanged included here from skvidal's list.'	15:20
mcepl	what about Pulseaudio? why not?	15:20
arxs	mcepl: Pulseaudo is one the 'old' list, and it will remain there	15:21
adamw	some are worth having - bash, coreutils, gcc are things we could cover	15:21
mcepl	ok	15:21
adamw	the others there are important but mostly are so mature they're unlikely to suffer problems serious enough to care about	15:21
arxs	adamw: right, but how many bugs are there? (maybe gcc, but i don't check this)	15:22
arxs	any other suggestion's?	15:23
SMParrish	keep on mind that all dependenices of critical packages will also be critical packages	15:24
arxs	SMParrish: good point	15:25
adamw	yeah, we could look at the list of deps for anything in the final list	15:25
adamw	but i think overall we're good with arxs' list...thanks for your work there :)	15:26
SMParrish	what we need to do is generate a list of all the dependencies on the list arcs made to see how many packages were are talking about and how to group them	15:26
SMParrish	s/arcs/arxs	15:26
arxs	SMParrish: this can be done with "repoquery --wahtrequires" or i'm wrong?	15:27
adamw	just repoquery --requires	15:28
arxs	i will change the list to the given suggestion by you, and then bring up a second list with all the deps.	15:29
mcepl	no, repoquery --whatrequires --alldeps <package>	15:29
adamw	uh? i'm not sure we're on the same page :)	15:29
mcepl	(plain --requires is for groups)	15:29
adamw	--whatrequires foo gives you things that require foo, doesn't it?	15:29
adamw	that's not what we want	15:29
adamw	we want what foo requires	15:29
mcepl	yes	15:30
SMParrish	adamw is right	15:30
mcepl	sorry, once more	15:30
mcepl	yeah, but none of these will give you names of package, a sec	15:30
adamw	you need to pipe it a bit	15:31
mcepl	--requires --resolve is probably the right combination	15:31
adamw	oh yes, that does it - neat	15:32
SMParrish	thats it	15:32
adamw	i used to pipe that through another --provides query, that way's much better	15:32
adamw	(your way i mean :>)	15:32
arxs	i will try it, if not "yum remove" show also the deps :)	15:32
rjune_wrk	LOL	15:32
mcepl	yeah, but it has some side-effects ;-)	15:32
rjune_wrk	that everything for this topic?	15:33
SMParrish	so to get an idea gdm has the following deps that will have to be critical pkgs as well http://fpaste.org/paste/16920	15:33
arxs	rjune_wrk: yes i think so	15:33
adamw	they don't necessarily have to be critical, but we should consider whether they are	15:33
mcepl	there's something wrong -- freetype-freeworld is not Fedora package	15:33
adamw	so arxs, make us another list :D	15:34
rjune_wrk	#link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/CPCL arxs's list of update componants	15:34
rjune_wrk	#action arxs will update the list with requirements iformation for next meeting.	15:34
rjune_wrk	#topic - Bugzilla Legend - Unify bugzilla defs between RHEL and Fedora	15:34
rjune_wrk	adamw: this one is for you	15:34
SMParrish	mcepl: could be because I have rpmfusion repos enabled here	15:34
adamw	er, it is?	15:34
mcepl	yup, I think so, just emphasizing	15:34
rjune_wrk	adamw sent a message to the list about this for beland. Hopefully we can	15:34
rjune_wrk	> have an update.	15:34
rjune_wrk	yup.	15:34
rjune_wrk	It's from the add it to the agenda page.	15:35
* adamw is lost...what message is this?		15:35
rjune_wrk	I do not know, there is suprisingly little information on the agenda page to pick it up and track it	15:35
rjune_wrk	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers:meeting-agenda-list	15:36
adamw	well, er, i sort of abandoned unifying the definitions a while ago	15:36
adamw	what i've been working on since is just having the fedora definitions properly defined and linked to from bugzilla	15:36
adamw	i'm mostly done with that, as far as I knew :)	15:36
rjune_wrk	has that been communicated to beland?	15:36
adamw	is this an old addition to the agenda list maybe?	15:36
adamw	let me look at the wiki page history	15:36
rjune_wrk	could be. if so it needs to be removed.	15:36
adamw	yeah, it's old, last change to the page was 18 may	15:37
adamw	clean it out :)	15:37
rjune_wrk	will do	15:37
rjune_wrk	#topic - Debugging pages	15:38
adamw	now this one i know where we're at :)	15:38
rjune_wrk	good.	15:38
adamw	this came out of a qa proposal by viking-ice, but obviously touches on bz stuff as well	15:38
rjune_wrk	bz is?	15:39
rjune_wrk	bugzilla.	15:39
arxs	bugzilla	15:39
adamw	bugzappers	15:39
rjune_wrk	doh!	15:39
adamw	:D	15:39
adamw	i think the way the x.org page came out was great, and any contributions anyone can come up with to that or other debugging pages would be awesome	15:39
adamw	and if your triage component(s) don't have a page, consider making one	15:39
adamw	i've also had a proposal from a guy at ubuntu to work together on upstreaming the content of those pages where possible; anyone see any problems with doing that?	15:40
adamw	e.g. we'd merge the content of the ubuntu and fedora wiki pages on debugging x.org, and send it upstream to the x.org wiki	15:40
rjune_wrk	adamw: link to the x.org page?	15:40
adamw	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Debugging	15:40
mcepl	adamw: no, I think wiki is covered by CC license or something anyway .... but be sure to check versions of packages ... bubuntu is behind us (not that broken ;-))	15:41
rjune_wrk	#link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Debugging	15:41
rjune_wrk	I think it's probably a good idea	15:41
arxs	well, the NM page is not ready for release: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Arxs/NetworkManager/Debugging	15:41
adamw	mcepl: that's the good part: debugging *procedures* aren't really distro specific	15:41
arxs	but i work on this :)	15:41
adamw	arxs: awesome! thanks a lot	15:42
adamw	looks like you've got a good start going	15:42
mcepl	sure, but I think they haven't immersed themselves into KMS that much, which may make things slightly different	15:42
adamw	if you need any help do shout on the list, we got the X page done collaboratively pretty well	15:42
adamw	mcepl: not really, it just needs a little bit in the intro to say "on distros X Y Z don't bother with the KMS stuff"	15:42
adamw	but in practice, current ubuntu releases have kms enabled by default, they just don't _do_ anything with it	15:43
mcepl	adamw: and there is continuation about input devices for X on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Input_Triage_Algorithm and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Input_device_configuration	15:43
mcepl	adamw: yeah, but we (and them) have to be aware of it	15:43
rjune_wrk	mcepl: KMS is ?	15:43
mcepl	kernel modesetting	15:43
arxs	Kernel Mode Setting	15:43
adamw	mcepl: sure, but i don't think that'd be a problem. that's part of what we could work on together.	15:44
mcepl	moving some parts of X drivers to kernel	15:44
mcepl	sure	15:44
adamw	so for now i've told that guy we'd probably be happy to go with it, and asked a few questions, and i'm waiting for a reply from him	15:44
adamw	once we have something concrete to propose, we'll take it to the list	15:44
rjune_wrk	wonderful, make it a brief update item next week?	15:45
adamw	sounds good	15:45
rjune_wrk	#action adamw will update on collaboration with Ubuntu on debugging procedures.	15:45
rjune_wrk	#topic - Open Floor	15:45
* LinuxCode raises his hand		15:45
rjune_wrk	Yes.	15:46
arxs	rjune_wrk: did you know that the diff is from action and agreed ?	15:46
arxs	in MeetBot :)	15:46
rjune_wrk	action is person X will do something	15:46
rjune_wrk	agreed is there is a consensus	15:46
mcepl	I have almost ready release of next version of the Greasemonkey script, but I need to finish testing (we did something with arxs yesterday, but he hasn't confirmed me that I have fixed his problems). It is quite radical change, so I don't want to push it on you without testing. OTOH, if nobody volunteers, I just will and pick up the pieces. I need to move on with the stuff.	15:47
arxs	rjune_wrk: thanks for the info	15:47
adamw	mcepl: sorry i couldn't test for you earlier	15:47
* LinuxCode waits for voice		15:47
rjune_wrk	mcepl: You're jumping the gun a little bit, and LinuxCode has something to bring up.	15:47
adamw	LinuxCode: you don't need voice, afaik	15:47
mcepl	adamw: there is always time for penitence ;-)	15:47
adamw	LinuxCode: we're not restricted	15:47
* mcepl shuts up		15:47
LinuxCode	adamw, was just going to introduce myself as I just applied to the traiging group	15:48
arxs	mcepl: let's talk about it after the meeting?	15:48
LinuxCode	triaging	15:48
adamw	awesome! thanks for applying	15:48
rjune_wrk	LinuxCode: did you send your intro to the list?	15:48
arxs	LinuxCode: welcome !	15:48
LinuxCode	rjune_wrk, no, didnt know that was required	15:48
adamw	you should actually apply to 'fedorabugs' rather than 'triagers'	15:48
mcepl	arxs: yeah, I just wanted to make announcement here ... apparnetly, nobody cares when I speak on #fedora-bugzappers	15:48
LinuxCode	but some of you might know me anyway	15:48
arxs	mcepl: i care :)	15:48
Viking-Ice	What's the story with this ubuntu debugging collaboration?	15:48
mcepl	adamw: what's triagers anyway?	15:48
mcepl	Viking-Ice: see above	15:49
adamw	LinuxCode: see the procedure :) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Joining	15:49
mcepl	Viking-Ice: do you need a backlog?	15:49
adamw	Viking-Ice: i really just filled them in on what i mentioned to you in pm earlier	15:49
adamw	Viking-Ice: nothing new, i haven't heard back from the guy yet	15:49
adamw	mcepl: i	15:49
adamw	mcepl: i'll explain outside the meeting, let's not fill up the logs	15:49
adamw	oh darn	15:50
adamw	i just realized you got it right and i was wrong, it's triagers not fedorabugs you should apply to, sorry :)	15:50
adamw	getting confused	15:50
LinuxCode	k so points 5 + 7 I still have to do	15:50
adamw	so just send your intro to the list and i'll approve you	15:50
LinuxCode	I get on it asap	15:50
rjune_wrk	LinuxCode: happy to have you.	15:50
adamw	that's right, thanks again	15:50
adamw	if you hang out in	15:50
adamw	grr	15:50
LinuxCode	well, every little helps	15:51
adamw	damn laptop keyboard...in #fedora-bugzappers after the meeting, some of us may be able to help you get started	15:51
rjune_wrk	mcepl: ok, knock yourself ut.	15:51
rjune_wrk	out	15:51
LinuxCode	adamw, sure, thomasj suggested I join the bugs group, but then somebody told me that it will slip into triage now	15:51
arxs	adamw: did you _not_ take your ibm type m keybord with out while you traveling?	15:52
adamw	arxs: surprisingly enough...no :)	15:52
adamw	LinuxCode: yeah, triagers was the right group, sorry to confuse	15:52
LinuxCode	thats ok, no worries	15:52
adamw	great to have you :)	15:53
LinuxCode	;-}	15:53
rjune_wrk	we have 8 minutes left, lets get to mcepl and his update and close the meeting.	15:53
adamw	i had something to add, too, btw.	15:53
rjune_wrk	ok	15:53
rjune_wrk	you can be after mcepl	15:53
* arxs listen		15:53
adamw	sure	15:53
mcepl	rjune_wrk: I think I said my stuff, just come to #fedora-bugzappers and let's beat the bugs out of the thing	15:53
rjune_wrk	please test so we have some testing.	15:54
rjune_wrk	adamw: all you	15:54
adamw	thanks :)	15:54
adamw	just on the priority / severity thing	15:54
adamw	the restrictions have been made in bugzilla and i updated the 'how to triage' page, so please be setting the 'severity' field for all bugs you triage from now on	15:54
adamw	the guidelines are pretty simple - most stuff is 'normal', bad breakage in the package is 'high', bad breakage that has implications distro-wide is 'urgent', really trivial stuff is 'low'	15:55
rjune_wrk	triagers get severity, and developers get priority, correct?	15:55
arxs	adamw: thanks to make this possible!	15:55
adamw	rjune_wrk: yes, according to mcepl's proposal. don't touch priority at all.	15:55
arxs	rjune_wrk: right	15:55
adamw	so to put this into use, we will be reviewing all bugs marked 'urgent' at the blocker review meetings, to make sure none of those that should be blockers slip through the net	15:56
arxs	i can see, from the triage of the last month, no severity war on more then 20 bugs :)	15:56
adamw	i'm also going to experiment with doing a weekly review of 'urgent' bugs, sent to f-t-l and f-d-l, to see how that goes: i'll write one this friday, if it works out well, it may be nice for someone else to take that over	15:56
adamw	i'll ask for volunteers in the mail :)	15:56
arxs	adamw: sounds good	15:57
mcepl	the main difference between urgent and high (just to emphasize) is that urgent breaks whole distro, high breaks (w/o workaround) just the particular app	15:57
rjune_wrk	Kevin_Kofler: we're wrapping up, you'll have it shortly.	15:57
mcepl	normal means there are some workarounds or some parts of app still work	15:57
rjune_wrk	and that all should be in the wiki page.	15:58
mcepl	and it's all highly dependent on component	15:58
mcepl	I think it is	15:58
adamw	yeah, i've updated one page but not the legend page yet	15:58
arxs	it is	15:58
adamw	which takes a slightly more formal approach	15:58
adamw	we can do that soon	15:58
rjune_wrk	ok, the KDE SIG is here for the room, let's give them a minute to setup.	15:58
adamw	yeah, we don't have to be too hard-and-fast on the definitions	15:58
jlaska	comphappy: <delayed response> I'm afraid adamw is right ... I do frequently just cause trouble :)	15:58
rjune_wrk	bugzappers event in #fedora-bugzappers.	15:58
adamw	the important thing is to have a useful continuum	15:58
adamw	thanks all!	15:59
rjune_wrk	ending in 5	15:59
rjune_wrk	#endmeeting	15:59

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