Meeting:Docs IRC log 20091119

Sparks	#startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings	00:02
zodbot	Meeting started Thu Nov 19 00:02:20 2009 UTC. The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	00:02
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	00:02
Sparks	#topic Roll Call	00:02
* Sparks		00:02
* radsy is here		00:02
* rudi is here		00:02
* bcotton is here		00:02
* jjmcd .		00:02
* Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes		00:04
Sparks	Okay, let's get started	00:08
Sparks	#chair jjmcd	00:08
zodbot	Current chairs: Sparks jjmcd	00:08
Sparks	#topic Docs Project Leader Elections	00:08
Sparks	When I took this job back in January(?) I wanted to make sure that we had elections for a new leader after F12 got released.	00:09
Sparks	So here is my suggestion...	00:09
Sparks	We take nominations starting tonight and vote next week.	00:09
Sparks	Thoughts?	00:09
jjmcd	wikipage	00:09
Sparks	That's a good place to start	00:10
rudi	sounds like a plan; and the wiki is the natural place for noms to go	00:10
jjmcd	Although, we could just agree to re-elect you by acclimation	00:10
Sparks	rudi: Works for me.	00:10
Sparks	I won't take the job unless someone else runs	00:11
Sparks	:)	00:11
* Sparks votes for ---> that guy		00:11
jjmcd	And I won't run unless I can find a sucker ... errr ... leader for RNs	00:11
Sparks	We should probably figure out if we want to do this yearly or releasely or...	00:12
jjmcd	Personally, I could argue for either	00:12
jjmcd	Yearly gives somebody a chance to get established	00:12
Sparks	yes	00:12
jjmcd	releasely gives is a quicker way to get rid of a turkey	00:13
bcotton	i'd think releasely would be a bit hectic	00:14
Sparks	jjmcd: I think you should be able to get rid of me... err... a turkey at any point	00:14
* Sparks establishes https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Leader_Elections		00:14
jjmcd	So we need an impeachment process?	00:14
Sparks	WE DON'T LIKE YOU ANYMORE... GET OFF THE STAGE!	00:14
* jjmcd prefers burning torches		00:15
Sparks	Okay, I'll send out an email after the meeting	00:15
Sparks	#action Sparks to send out email on nominations	00:15
Sparks	Okay, anything else on this topic?	00:15
Sparks	#topic Release Notes	00:16
jjmcd	You saw the notes to the list	00:16
Sparks	First I'd like to thank jjmcd and rudi and everyone else who helped in getting the Release Notes completed.	00:16
Sparks	You guys did an awesome job!	00:17
Sparks	Now if our technology could keep up...  :)	00:17
Sparks	jjmcd: What are the translation issues?	00:17
rudi	Ta -- there are still some bugs in the process, but we're getting better :)	00:17
jjmcd	They do look nice on the new F12 background - but that's all on mo	00:17
jjmcd	rudi is tracking them down, I think most are explainable	00:17
jjmcd	We do need to decide when to publish	00:18
jjmcd	and I like rudi's idea of moving in a direction of translators publishing, or at least deciding when	00:18
jjmcd	And OBTW, as translations are committed, the built docs ARE available	00:18
Sparks	jjmcd: I'd like it if the translators would join us on these meetings... especially around release time	00:18
jjmcd	But without building themselves, translators have no view into the errors	00:19
jjmcd	Yes, noriko at least was joining us for a while	00:19
Sparks	jjmcd: So we need to do a classroom on how to use Publican?	00:19
jjmcd	but they are spread out across timezones	00:19
rudi	Sparks -- no, the problem is more deep-seated	00:19
jjmcd	Well, it is a major PITA until the new TFX	00:19
Sparks	jjmcd: True. Maybe the lead translator for each lang could join us... TZs make it tough	00:19
rudi	yeah; Tx 0.7 is the blocker	00:20
Sparks	rudi: more deep-seated?	00:20
rudi	Until then, translators not only need to know how to use publican, but how to wrangle the merging and splitting as well	00:20
jjmcd	And that isn't always obvious	00:20
Sparks	yes	00:20
rudi	and the "how to use Publican" is the least of their worries.	00:20
Sparks	it isn't obvious to me!	00:21
rudi	Even after all this time, *we* still bungle the merging and splitting	00:21
jjmcd	When everything is hunky-dory, we could script it. But things are rarely perfect	00:21
rudi	(which is the root of most of the English strings we're still seeing cropping up in the translations)	00:21
jjmcd	Yep, that was my suspicion	00:21
rudi	jjmcd -- yeah, confirmed. With yours truly being the chief bungler :)	00:22
jjmcd	I will remind docs and trans later where to find the nightly builds of f12zeroday-tx	00:22
rudi	But there are also some genuinely inexplicable ones, where strings we can see are definitely translated somehow don't get carried across the split...	00:23
Sparks	jjmcd: When will the next batch ready to commit?	00:23
rudi	Sparks, jjmcd -- we need to make a decision about when and whether to refresh the POTs	00:23
jjmcd	rudi: yep. Sparks: Schedule says tomorrow, but I am poking L10N to ask if that makes sense	00:23
rudi	And we probably need some input from L10N on that	00:23
jjmcd	And with the latest flamebug, we may want to do that again real soon now	00:24
Sparks	ya	00:24
rudi	The refresh would pull in the latest fixes (from f12-temp), plus the flamebug, plus assorted small glitches that are breaking translations	00:24
rudi	jjmcd -- did you want to do this before or after packaging the RN?	00:25
jjmcd	I would also like to get something authoratative on processors. We have an outstanding bug that disagrees with other experts, and I don't know who to believe	00:25
jjmcd	rudi, we have a package in the DVD, and a more recent package on updates	00:25
jjmcd	We will want to do another probably for the install thing first en then maybe all langs	00:26
rudi	jjmcd -- Ah OK! so any update is not going to interfere with thath	00:26
rudi	* that	00:26
jjmcd	I don't think we want to wait that one for the translations	00:26
jjmcd	yeah, Sparks has been great on getting these things to the repos	00:26
rudi	OK -- so regenerate today?	00:26
jjmcd	sounds good to me	00:26
jjmcd	There is more manual than I would like in the packaging, but it isn't some huge deal	00:27
jjmcd	The real problem is waiting hours and hours to build all the langs	00:28
jjmcd	Well, mostly to merge	00:28
jjmcd	BTW, I saw you committed some merged pos	00:28
jjmcd	If we can keep up with that, it could be a real help	00:28
rudi	NP -- I'm trying to make sure that the master branch stays current and ready to build	00:29
jjmcd	good, I like that	00:29
jjmcd	http://fedora.is-sixsigma.com/F12beta/ - regenerated every night, from t12zeroday even tho it says beta	00:29
rudi	So -- the other question is -- do we wait till we have an answer on the arches before rebuilding?	00:29
rudi	*regenerating	00:30
jjmcd	I think we need to deal with the install policy immediately	00:30
rudi	We have text on the policy change ready to insert?	00:31
jjmcd	As much as I would like an answer on the other, I think all those guys are burning their cycles on BZ534047	00:31
jjmcd	No	00:31
jjmcd	Well, there is text	00:31
jjmcd	and widespread agreement it is wron	00:31
rudi	OK -- well, we need something definitive in the f12-temp branch ASAP	00:32
rudi	radsy -- are you in a position to write it up?	00:32
jjmcd	So, I will craft some weasel words that try to avoid the emotion, but we still need a definitive workaround	00:32
rudi	Yeah -- whether the change is good, bad, or ugly is not relevant to the RN	00:32
jjmcd	The fix posted by Seth isn't even available to most people	00:32
rudi	Just its effects and what to do if you don't like it for whatever reason	00:33
jjmcd	You gotta be a policykit developer to even have the tool	00:33
jjmcd	It is the what to do that is the problem	00:33
jjmcd	Not too hard to describe the change	00:34
rudi	OK	00:34
jjmcd	Does that become 5.2.1, or 4.1?	00:34
rudi	So where are we going to get that from?	00:34
jjmcd	Well, the bug thread hasn't slowed yet	00:35
rudi	I'd say 5.2.1, with a pointer in 4.1	00:35
jjmcd	Oh maybe it has. I couldn't get a word in edgewise earlier, but now it's been an hour since someone commented	00:35
jjmcd	On the bug, I'm sure the mailing list is still lively	00:36
Sparks	jjmcd: Would now be a good time to ask for a definitive answer on what needs to go in the RNs?	00:36
jjmcd	Or everyone got frustrated with the in-flight collisions on bugzilla	00:36
jjmcd	Ask where?	00:37
Sparks	jjmcd: The more I think about it the more I think that PK should just be uninstalled on systems where users shouldn't be installing software... almost makes sense.	00:37
Sparks	jjmcd: On the bug.	00:37
jjmcd	Seems like everyone has a horse in this race	00:37
Sparks	jjmcd: you/we still need an answer	00:37
jjmcd	yep	00:37
* Sparks got hit twice on the same post with a collision		00:37
jjmcd	And we need to test it	00:37
jjmcd	Much of what has been talked about doesn't work for ordinary mortals	00:38
Sparks	jjmcd: I agree	00:38
jjmcd	What I think we are saying, rudi, is that we aren't ready for a full rebuild	00:39
Sparks	jjmcd: Well... work up some text saying what PK does and that a solution is in the works	00:39
jjmcd	I'll post en-US as soon as we get an answer, and we can do the big thing tomorrow	00:39
rudi	yeah, that's what I'm hearing.	00:39
Sparks	jjmcd: If you get the solution before you crash for the night then put it in...	00:39
Sparks	jjmcd: otherwise build it and let's do a push	00:39
Sparks	ok	00:40
jjmcd	Yeah, at least on docs.fp.o I can put a warning	00:40
Sparks	WORKSFORME	00:40
Sparks	Okay, anything else on the Release Notes?	00:42
jjmcd	rudi, any clue why the rev history is missing from the trans?	00:42
rudi	jjmcd -- yeah; I turned them off	00:43
jjmcd	Oh, OK	00:43
rudi	when I was building	00:43
rudi	the changes that you had to make for yelp caused them to blow up when I was building the translated versions	00:43
jjmcd	I had no theory about that, as long as there's an answer and it isn't a mystery	00:43
rudi	And, strapped for time, that seemed like the best solution	00:43
jjmcd	oooohhhh, I thought I kept the yelp changes out of git except for the table length	00:44
rudi	Yeah; no mystery	00:44
rudi	Hmmm.	00:44
rudi	So the "xyz changes (cont'd)" shouldn't be in there either?	00:45
jjmcd	I cut the max table size down some in the hopes it might help - didn't	00:45
jjmcd	Oh yeah, just the tables were shorter	00:45
rudi	Oh OK	00:45
jjmcd	I think I was limiting them to like 250 entries or something, shortened to 100	00:45
jjmcd	didn't help,.. but I also hoped they might help you build, too	00:46
rudi	Well, *something* helped me build	00:46
rudi	I was finally able to build them on my machine without having to SSH into ryanlerch's :)	00:46
jjmcd	Don't you love a good mystery	00:46
Sparks	Okay... Moving on...	00:49
Sparks	#topic Guide Status	00:49
Sparks	Anyone have any problems with their guide or want to talk about their guide?	00:49
radsy	i did lots of updates to the selinux user-guide yesterday, thanks to a BZ that slipped through the cracks of my memory	00:50
radsy	got it up in CVS overnight, it's fine now	00:50
Sparks	radsy: Cool!	00:50
Sparks	Anyone else?	00:51
radsy	basically the removal of setroubleshootd as a permanent daemon	00:51
Sparks	:)	00:52
Sparks	#topic New Guides	00:52
Sparks	Any new guides in the works?	00:52
Sparks	#topic Status on CC license rollout.	00:53
Sparks	For those of you that didn't know...	00:53
Sparks	We have officially changed over to the CC-BY-SA license!	00:53
Sparks	All of these tasks are complete!	00:53
Sparks	Thanks to everyone who made this possible... it was truly a team effort.	00:53
Sparks	#topic All other business	00:54
Sparks	And with six minutes left... does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?	00:54
radsy	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=534047 ? :)	00:55
buggbot	Bug 534047: high, low, ---, richard, ASSIGNED, All users get to install software on a machine they do not have the root password to	00:55
radsy	i'm starting to think we might want to wait for the dust to settle	00:55
radsy	security response team are trying to find out if it will be reverted	00:56
radsy	nobody knows it seems...	00:56
Sparks	radsy: IMHO we need to get the word out that right now the vulnerability exists.	00:56
radsy	your call	00:56
Sparks	if admins/owners don't know that there is a change then they are assuming that they are protected.	00:57
Sparks	but, of course, that is my opinion...	00:57
radsy	we do have a lot of hits on the RN right now, being so close after release	00:57
Sparks	Yeah	00:57
radsy	i guess it can't hurt, quick enough to pull if needed	00:58
Sparks	anyone have any thoughts on how Docs should handle the PK ordeal within the next 24-hours?	00:58
Sparks	I'm assuming that within 72-hours we'll know more and can stand down more.	00:58
Sparks	radsy: ya... we can get text up and down very quickly	00:58
rudi	Well, we could add a note about the *existence* of the issue right now	00:58
Sparks	rudi: Yeah, that's basically what I'm thinking right now	00:59
rudi	Even if we don't have a suggested fix	00:59
rudi	I kinda think that if there were a fix out there that most people could implement, we would have heard about it by now...	00:59
radsy	and mention it's still in contention	00:59
rudi	radsy +1	00:59
Sparks	yep	01:00
Sparks	Okay... it is the end of our hour. Anything else to discuss before we close?	01:00
radsy	nice timing :)	01:00
Sparks	Thanks everyone for coming tonight!	01:01
Sparks	#endmeeting	01:01