Meetings:Kopers IRC log 20100324.2

* skvidal is here		13:05
abadger1999	here	13:05
skvidal	abadger1999: so, where to begin?	13:05
abadger1999	So spot wants us to work on getting kopers up and running.	13:05
abadger1999	This requires a new build service (since koji both does a lot more than we need and isn't paranoid enough)	13:06
abadger1999	packagers will need to interact with the build service.	13:06
mizmo	so i dont quite understand ppa that well	13:06
abadger1999	Okay. So a ppa is basically a third party repository	13:06
skvidal	but on a smaller scale - ostensibly	13:07
abadger1999	Usually smaller; but not necessarily.	13:07
skvidal	right	13:07
mizmo	what does it stand for?	13:07
mizmo	personal P A?	13:07
abadger1999	And usually targetted around a specific package/functionality	13:07
abadger1999	Personal package a...... Hmm..	13:07
* abadger1999 looks it up		13:07
mizmo	what problem does it solve?	13:07
skvidal	archive	13:07
skvidal	mizmo: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/KojiPersonalRepos	13:07
abadger1999	person package archives: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas	13:08
abadger1999	The ppa term is ubuntus.	13:08
mizmo	"Bob would like to try out a new version of GTK2. Bob does a koper build of the new GTK2 package, and then builds a number of other packages against this. Bob shares his gtk2newness koper with others for validation of the new GTK2 "	13:08
mizmo	is Bob a GTK developer?	13:08
abadger1999	For end users it can solve several problems:	13:08
mizmo	it sounds like he's just trying something that's new upstream	13:08
abadger1999	"User wants latest and greatest"	13:08
mizmo	yes, i want the latest inkscape :)	13:09
abadger1999	"User wants to help test something that's too destabilizing for rawhide/F-release"	13:09
mizmo	but i dont want the latest gvfs	13:09
abadger1999	"user wants to have different build/configs than in Fedora's version"	13:09
mizmo	ah okay	13:10
abadger1999	"software not packageable for Fedora"	13:10
abadger1999	That latter one is like Chromium or python2.4	13:10
mizmo	okay	13:11
mizmo	so then my next question is, how does this differ from say spot having a chromium repo on fedora people?	13:11
skvidal	it doesn't	13:11
skvidal	the goal of this is to make what spot is doing	13:11
skvidal	1. easy	13:11
abadger1999	There's also "user wants a bugfix that's not in the Fedora release", but I don't know if this is a good fit for that.	13:11
skvidal	2. so the person doing it doesn't have to have their own cputime and bandwidth to do it	13:11
mizmo	the wiki page is really awesome	13:13
mizmo	i have some more questions on it though, so now im looking at the workflow	13:13
mizmo	for step 7	13:14
mizmo	"Bob proceeds to create srpms for various other packages and builds them in koji against his "gtknewness" koper. "	13:14
skvidal	yes	13:14
mizmo	are those srpms related to the srpm he did in step 2?	13:14
skvidal	yes - in that they require the srpm in step2	13:14
skvidal	to build	13:14
skvidal	or rather	13:14
mizmo	so like, if he does an srpm for gtk2.... what if it fails to build because it requires something else newer than what's in fedora?	13:14
skvidal	they require the pkgs built from the srpm in step 2	13:14
mizmo	eg. how do you use this and avoid dependency hell? (do you?)	13:15
skvidal	you avoid it by building what you need	13:15
mizmo	how does he know he has to rebuild those srpms for step 2's newness	13:15
skvidal	b/c he's not an idiot?	13:15
mizmo	:( well i mean, im not an idiot	13:15
skvidal	this tool does not solve having to know what your package requires	13:15
mizmo	but ive tried to do my own builds of inkscape	13:15
mizmo	then i end up in perl hell	13:15
abadger1999	mizmo: This is part of the question -- can we do this and avoid dep hell? Is it worth it even if he gets into dep hell?	13:16
mizmo	the reason i ask this, is, trying to figure out if the scope of the tool includes telling you what you are missing	13:16
mizmo	also, is this tool layering you on top of say right now, Fedora 12 rather than rawhide?	13:16
skvidal	only insofar as mock will tell you	13:16
mizmo	is it meant for consumption by fedora released version users, or rawhide users?	13:16
skvidal	it layers on top of whatever repos you want	13:17
abadger1999	mizmo: Actually, might want to look at this wiki page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Kopers	13:17
skvidal	mizmo: here - let me try another tack	13:17
skvidal	you know what mock does?	13:17
skvidal	this is just like mock except the building is done on a system we run	13:17
abadger1999	It has Jesse's page, but we've been finding things that won't work with the initial proposal.	13:17
skvidal	and the files are hosted on a system we run	13:17
mizmo	im not familiar with mock :(	13:17
abadger1999	So.. mock builds a package from an srpm.	13:18
abadger1999	When it builds, it builds in a chroot	13:19
abadger1999	So there's only a minimal install of fedora there.	13:19
abadger1999	if the package doesn't have all the deps it needs, you'll get a build error.	13:20
mizmo	it spits out what you're missing, to a point?	13:20
abadger1999	but mock won't tell you precisely what... you just get a log file that hopefully will have enough information to see what went wrong.	13:20
abadger1999	For instance it might show that configure can't find perl-devel	13:20
abadger1999	Well.. probably configure will say: Can't find perl.h	13:21
mizmo	oh okay :(	13:21
abadger1999	Then you, the packager, say I have to add perl-devel	13:21
mizmo	the one thing i was thinking of, if the use case is for stuff to test something on top of say Fedora 12	13:21
mizmo	is i go in and i try to build the latest inkscape	13:21
mizmo	and when it fails with perl crap, it somehow makes it easier to grab that perl crap from rawhide, which may be newer, and try again	13:21
mizmo	without me literally having to hunt down the perl crap	13:22
mizmo	(does that make sense?)	13:22
mizmo	but if new enough perl crap isn't in rawhide, :) it doesnt help me	13:22
mizmo	and if i'm building on rawhide, there's no place to try to automagically grab things	13:22
mizmo	mock is a really minimal environment though? is this system going to have more than minimal environments?	13:23
mizmo	so i can say i want to build this for the foo spin?	13:23
abadger1999	We hadn't planned on it -- we were just going to replicate what hte current build system dos but make it lighter weight.	13:24
mizmo	so it's going to be a mock environment	13:24
abadger1999	Yeah -- mock will pull in the deps you specify in the spec file.	13:24
mizmo	kk	13:25
abadger1999	So if the spec file says, BuildRequires: perl-devel >= 5.5 then mock will pull that in and the deps that perl-devel needs.	13:25
abadger1999	But if you don't have those deps specified or the version doesn't exist, then you have to hunt them down and build them first.	13:26
mizmo	oh okay	13:26
mizmo	so when my inkscape builds fail i kind of am an idiot for not doing the spec file right :)	13:26
mizmo	so what you guys are looking for	13:27
mizmo	is sort of a nice web interface to browse the different kopers?	13:27
abadger1999	Yeah :-) although you have some good ideas for tools that might be able to help.. it's just not something that we have tooled at all at the moment.	13:27
abadger1999	Yep.	13:27
mizmo	can this be an automated thing like the ubuntu ones	13:27
mizmo	or is it always a manual thing?	13:27
mizmo	eg they have an inkscape nightly builds ppa that looks automated? (gah i want that)	13:28
mizmo	(it may not be though)	13:28
skvidal	someone submits them	13:28
abadger1999	A buildbot on the client could be constructing the srpm and sending automatically.	13:28
skvidal	but that is not automated	13:29
skvidal	that's someone (the owner of the buildbot process) submitting them	13:29
skvidal	it's just simple	13:29
abadger1999	But the server is just queuing what the clients send it.	13:29
abadger1999	mizmo: If you download this and look at it in inkscape, http://toshio.fedorapeople.org/apb-overview.svg	13:30
mizmo	lemme see	13:30
abadger1999	you'll see what we're envisioning -- developers/packagers are manually submitting SRPMS at one end.	13:30
abadger1999	repositories with their builds are popping out the other.	13:30
abadger1999	Users are doing their best to figure out how to consume the repositories.	13:30
mizmo	what's the dotted line between scm and build service?	13:31
abadger1999	I looked at the ubuntu ppas website... they seem to have decided on search rather than browse.	13:31
abadger1999	So scm is optional -- I think it would be nice for packagers to have.	13:31
abadger1999	But out initial work will follow hte black line -- srpm to buildservice to repo	13:32
abadger1999	*our	13:32
mizmo	so the repo list website is what we're talking about?	13:32
abadger1999	With an scm, we could share work between Fedora proper, a ppa that's doing inkscape nightlies, and a ppa that's doing latest inkscape stable releases, for instance.	13:33
abadger1999	I think mainly.	13:33
abadger1999	Not sure if spot was envisioning you looking at the whole process or not.	13:33
mizmo	kk	13:33
mizmo	(it helps a ton for me to understand it though, sorry for all the questions)	13:34
abadger1999	No problem. I like answering simple questions where I can feel smart :-)	13:34
mizmo	lol	13:34
mizmo	so the problem the website solves for folks	13:35
mizmo	(1) i wanna see what cool stuff i can try - eg mo and nicu can try the latest inkscape	13:35
mizmo	(2) a developer told me to try x and now i have to find it	13:35
mizmo	(3) i want x. it's not in the fedora repos. is it here?	13:36
mizmo	can you think of anything else?	13:36
abadger1999	(4) I need to pull up a new infrastructure host and I need to get the packages that only run on infrastructure boxes	13:36
abadger1999	Which is kinda 3	13:36
abadger1999	But it's also -- package x is in Fedora and a koper but the way it was built is different	13:37
mizmo	so infrastructure has packages specific to it that aren't in the main distro?	13:37
mizmo	oh right,	13:37
mizmo	(5) i have x weird setup so i need this package that's sin fedora with special sauce	13:37
abadger1999	Or the configuration that comes along with it is different.	13:37
abadger1999	Yeah	13:37
mizmo	k so the types of repos/pckages im thinking of then	13:39
mizmo	a - it's already in fedora, but this one has special sauce	13:39
mizmo	b - it's already in fedora, but it's the newest / experimental / cooler version	13:39
mizmo	c - it's already in fedora but it has a specific bugfix we wanna test before promoting it	13:39
skvidal	why classify it by repos	13:39
mizmo	d - it's not in fedora at all.	13:39
skvidal	it is entirely possible that we will have repos that have ALL of the above in them	13:39
skvidal	and knowing what those are from the outside will be fairly close to impossible	13:40
mizmo	sure, but being aware of the approaches folks are taking at them and what they might get i think is a useful exercise?	13:40
skvidal	ok	13:41
abadger1999	mizmo: c could also be a particular bug has been fixed along with a bunch of feature additions so it shouldn't become a fedora update.	13:41
mizmo	eg. i am sure a poor example, but if i'm looking for new cool inkscape, but instead i get same old inkscape but tweaked with special metric system crap.... im disappointed	13:41
mizmo	abadger1999: backport fix?	13:41
abadger1999	But a particular person hit by the bug might want to update to that in the stable Fedora.	13:41
mizmo	so per build there isn't going to be seperate repos? is it going to be 1:1 person:repo or is it more, multiple repos for one person like spot, but he manually curates what goes in each one?	13:42
abadger1999	mizmo: as in, that's what should happen in Fedora? -- Fedora doesn't mandate backports. As in that's what to call it? It's probably an update to a new upstream but the package is built for a stable Fedora.	13:42
abadger1999	N:N	13:43
abadger1999	Could be a KDESIG repo with multiple packagers for that one repo and multiple packages in it.	13:43
abadger1999	Could be: toshoi's personal repo where I have updates to random stuff I need.	13:43
mizmo	ahhhh	13:43
abadger1999	We'll probably see packagers put their not yet reviewed packages in as well.	13:44
mizmo	ah thats a good use case too, and they could add their repo to the review request	13:44
abadger1999	Yep.	13:44
mizmo	so what do you like / not like about the ubuntu ppa site?	13:45
* skvidal has completely no preference about it		13:47
abadger1999	I don't think I'd find the front page particularly useful. the search is probably all that I'd use.	13:47
mizmo	they have a section that shows which versions of ubuntu support it. are there only particular versions of fedora this will work for?	13:48
mizmo	f13 and moving forward?	13:48
abadger1999	I'd probably be targetting a particular program (bzr) or group (KDE updates) rather than ooh.. there's a new inksscape build	13:48
mizmo	would you want to put some on a watchlist?	13:48
abadger1999	mizmo: I don't think there's going to be a lot more overhead in writing code to get more than one release.	13:49
abadger1999	I wouldn't -- I'd just install the ppa repo into apt/yum and it would get pulled in as part of yum update.	13:49
abadger1999	https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas?name_filter=bzr	13:49
abadger1999	That search result is pretty unhelpful	13:49
mizmo	im confused	13:50
mizmo	isnt that kind of broken	13:50
mizmo	like	13:50
mizmo	to use bzr as an example (and that search doesn't do this)	13:50
mizmo	if there are 5 kopers for bzr in fedora	13:50
abadger1999	A lot of those are bzr developers and they probable have their own builds that they upload to their own PPA... but it just makes that result confusing and horrid	13:50
mizmo	you don't want to hook your system up to all 5 kopers no?	13:50
mizmo	wht if they aren't compatible?	13:50
abadger1999	Correct.	13:50
abadger1999	also correct.	13:50
mizmo	so when you say you'll just install the ppa repo into apt/yum what do you mean?	13:51
* mizmo isn't following that		13:51
abadger1999	And the question is... how does the end user tell what's compatible and what's not?	13:51
abadger1999	ah	13:51
abadger1999	So let's say I manage to get to a PPA for some software I like:	13:52
abadger1999	https://launchpad.net/~bauble/+archive/ppa	13:52
abadger1999	click on Technical details about this PPA	13:52
abadger1999	That tells you how to add the ppa to your ubuntu system.	13:53
mizmo	right but say, in the case where im interested in inkscape (and again maybe that's a stupid case)	13:53
abadger1999	For Fedora, we'd probably have an rpm for the "ppa's repository" that you'd click on and it would be installed.	13:53
mizmo	maybe llkundrak did a build, then nicu did a build, then whomever did a build, and there's all these different repos	13:53
mizmo	how do those folks get together and have one repo	13:54
mizmo	cuz its possible to have 3 where there should be 1	13:54
skvidal	I suspect they get together	13:54
skvidal	by talking	13:54
mizmo	if im just subscribed to llkundrak's then i won't get the newest version of inkscape that's in nicu's build, which is ultimately what i want	13:54
mizmo	skvidal: you would be surprised though how often that doesnt happen	13:54
abadger1999	So... they could be working together and all target the same repo -- then the latest version of the package will be there and the others won't.	13:54
skvidal	mizmo: and I don't see how this tool solves that problem - but <shrug>	13:55
skvidal	oh and for the record	13:55
abadger1999	But as you can see from the launchpad ppa's it's also likely that they won't collaborate and you'll get 3 separate repos with inkscape.	13:55
skvidal	the way you migrate someone from one ppa to another	13:55
mizmo	skvidal: well for example, if you have a repo that has inkscape in it, maybe you have a section that says, other repos that have inkscape in it	13:55
skvidal	is via a ppa release and/or a redirect	13:55
mizmo	so then they're aware of what the other is doing	13:55
skvidal	mizmo: sure	13:55
mizmo	abadger1999: " then the latest version of the package will be there and the others won't." will be where?	13:56
mizmo	abadger1999: if it's one repo between the 3 of them, then in that one repo?	13:56
mizmo	so i mean, if we agree the case where i'm interested in inkscape. or bzr. or anything kde. is important, and you're focusing on the app *not* the repo, then maybe having some alert system or something	13:57
abadger1999	In the repo... if there was one "design team SIG" repo and they all worked on it, then whichever one built the rpm-latest version of inkscape would have their build in and hte others would get garbage collected.	13:57
mizmo	a new repo with inkscape in it is available - and it pops up on your watch list	13:57
mizmo	abadger1999: ah okay so the old versions get cleared out?	13:57
abadger1999	per repo, yes.	13:57
mizmo	kk	13:58
abadger1999	skvidal: btw, that causes interesting problems for managing repos -- we'll probably have to merge repos that are depended on rather than having them depend on the clientside.	13:58
skvidal	abadger1999: ?	13:58
skvidal	codependent repos?	13:58
abadger1999	skvidal: say I have a repo and it depends on libfoo-1.0 in your repo. You build libfoo-2.0.	13:59
abadger1999	skvidal: libfoo-1.0 gets garbage collected and my packages stop working.	13:59
skvidal	yes, and?	13:59
mizmo	gah the repos can interdepend on each other o_O	13:59
abadger1999	skvidal: So it's better for the tool to copy/hardlink/etc libfoo-1.0 into my repo at repo creation time.	14:00
skvidal	of course	14:00
skvidal	abadger1999: so you never know?	14:00
skvidal	and how will the tools know that your repo should have this?: are we going expand the entire set of deps out?	14:00
skvidal	just so we're clear that's umm N^N	14:00
abadger1999	ugh... well... back to just saying that we're building doom here, then :-)	14:02
mizmo	DOOOOM	14:02
abadger1999	skvidal: here's a thought -- I don't think ppas can depend on each other (don't know about opensuse)	14:03
skvidal	I don't see WHY they couldn't	14:04
skvidal	the whole point here,afaict, is that we are letting people build stuff	14:04
skvidal	it is NOT that building stuff or organizing an ever-expanding set of pkgs and deps is easy	14:04
abadger1999	Well, no. It's to let users install the built stuff.	14:05
mizmo	the doom should be on the devs not the usres	14:06
mizmo	if a repo goes away and breaks shiz, that's putting doom on the users	14:06
mizmo	(if doom has to be put on anyone at all, that is)	14:06
abadger1999	Yep.	14:06
mizmo	(rather devs than users)	14:06
skvidal	umm	14:07
skvidal	wait	14:07
skvidal	who are ppas for?	14:07
skvidal	b/c spot was saying it's for devs	14:07
skvidal	now we're saying it's for users?	14:07
abadger1999	it's not for the people creating the packages.... but you'd have to define "users"	14:07
mizmo	well when i say user :)	14:07
mizmo	i mean the user of the repo	14:08
mizmo	who may not be a dev. may be the user trying to get access to a bugfix in the ppa	14:08
mizmo	but they may well be the dev themselves	14:08
mizmo	where dev = person who created the repo	14:08
skvidal	brb	14:09
mizmo	are you guys building the web ui using moksha btw?	14:11
abadger1999	No... probably going to be a straight TG2 app.	14:11
mizmo	kk	14:11
mizmo	it could use similar css though from fedora community to match maybe	14:11
abadger1999	That part would be good.	14:12
abadger1999	mizmo: What's the state of all the fedora property's css?	14:12
abadger1999	Are we conolidated on some conceptual model yet?	14:13
mizmo	abadger1999: nope :( its still kind of amess	14:13
mizmo	although the fcomm css does inherit pretty cleanly from the base fedora.css	14:13
mizmo	so its not a fork or anything	14:13
abadger1999	<nod>	14:14
mizmo	so overall i think the ubuntu pages have a lot of noise we dont need	14:15
mizmo	wow, a *lot* of noise	14:15
abadger1999	Yeah.	14:15
abadger1999	Oh here 's something: You notice the warning message in the description on this page? https://launchpad.net/~bauble/+archive/ppa	14:16
mizmo	yep i saw that	14:16
mizmo	'zomg this will break you'	14:16
abadger1999	I think that kind of thing is what will bite us the worst with kopers type repos.	14:16
abadger1999	I don't know how we want to present it but we need to make sure users know that they're liable to get into dep hell by doing this.	14:17
mizmo	well	14:17
mizmo	we know what packages are in the koper	14:17
mizmo	we know what versions they are	14:17
mizmo	we know what versions of those same packages are in various versions of fedora	14:17
mizmo	what if we had a diff tool	14:17
mizmo	if you have fedora 12, and you use this koper, here's how it will change your system	14:18
mizmo	what would be even way cooler that isn't probably possible / in scope	14:18
mizmo	if it could take a dump of my rpm -qa (does smolt track this?) and only tell me the specific packages i have installed that it'll affect	14:18
mizmo	eg in the cause of bauble, if i have stuff that depends on sql alchemy version foobar, it'll warn me they're at risk! but only if i have that. if i don't it won't warn me so heavily	14:18
abadger1999	<nod>	14:19
abadger1999	that would probably need to be done clientside.	14:19
mizmo	well	14:19
mizmo	would it be weird to have a profile on kopers	14:19
mizmo	where you send in your rpm -qa so the website tells you?	14:20
mizmo	i mean, once i set up the repo on my system...	14:20
mizmo	i've already wasted time / bought into the idea of this repo, so i'll be annoyed if i go thru the effort and then it tells me, no pony for you	14:20
skvidal	for each and every user?	14:20
skvidal	umm	14:20
skvidal	that would be..... expensive	14:20
mizmo	how do we do the hw profiling in smolt?	14:21
abadger1999	I have to grab my kid from school -- i'll be back in about 10 minutes if you guys are still here.	14:21
mizmo	kk	14:21
mizmo	skvidal: what do you mean by expensive?	14:23
skvidal	maybe I misunderstood	14:24
skvidal	you're suggesting that a user	14:24
skvidal	who wants to use a repo	14:24
skvidal	should upload their installed pkgs list	14:24
mizmo	or use a client that does it for them	14:24
skvidal	and be warned if something in the repo might impact them negatively	14:24
mizmo	like the smolt client uploads hardware info	14:24
mizmo	right	14:24
mizmo	so the website will reflect things based on the rpm -qa affiliated with their user profile	14:25
skvidal	right - so let's say we have 100 kopers	14:25
mizmo	i guess you got the prob where it can get out of sync	14:25
skvidal	and say - 25000 users use those kopers	14:25
skvidal	let's call it 60K per rpm -qa per user	14:25
skvidal	per repo	14:25
mizmo	oh wait	14:26
mizmo	it wouldn't be per repo	14:26
mizmo	it'd be per user	14:26
mizmo	so you would 'log in' to get that feature	14:26
mizmo	you could use kopers without it and never have a log in	14:26
skvidal	umm	14:26
skvidal	I think this is a bit beyond scope	14:27
skvidal	but whatever	14:27
mizmo	so when you render the page, if i'm logged in as duffy, it highlights stuff that might cause me a headache	14:27
mizmo	if im not logged in, it's just plain	14:27
mizmo	well i mean	14:27
mizmo	if its a weakness in the ubuntu design, its a way to solve it in ours	14:27
mizmo	maybe its not the best solution	14:27
mizmo	but if the warnings are specific to the user, they're way more valuable than an easily-ignored blanket statement which many cases doesn't apply	14:28
mizmo	it's an awkward PITA to check to see if you're affected	14:28
mizmo	because then you have to switch from web browser mode to another app (terminal or package kit if you use that)	14:29
mizmo	im just trying to brainstorm ideas on how to make for a smoother experience but it could be a dumb idea	14:29
mizmo	but sometimes dumb ideas spawn good ones	14:29
skvidal	yah - I don't know here	14:32
mizmo	i mean if you come out with something thats sort of close to another technology its good to have a clear win over it / or differentiating feature	14:33
skvidal	differentiating feature	14:33
skvidal	it's for rpms	14:33
mizmo	:-p not enough!	14:33
skvidal	afaik - ours is actually open source	14:33
skvidal	okay	14:33
skvidal	it's late	14:33
mizmo	oh theirs isn't open source!	14:33
mizmo	damn	14:33
mizmo	it is late, off with you :) have a good one	14:34
* abadger1999 returns in time to say goodbye :-)		14:36
mizmo	hiii	14:36
mizmo	byeeee	14:36
mizmo	:)	14:36
mizmo	ill do some mocks based on what we talked about	14:36
mizmo	some of it might be pie-in-the-sky crackrock and we can totally drop it	14:36
abadger1999	Cool. Thanks!	14:36

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