Meeting:Docs IRC log and summary 20070318

FDP meeting 2007-03-18

Attending

• quaid (KarstenWade)
• stickster ( PaulWFrields )
• glezos (DimitrisGlezos)
• couf (BartCouvreur)
• EvilBoB (BobJensen)

Agenda

1. Google Summer of Code participation? (DimitrisGlezos) 1. Move to docs.fp.org (quaid) 1. Translations update (glezos) 1. Wiki pages reorganization update (couf) 1. Get PDF Versions (even manually)

Summary

1. GSoC 1. Craft proposals for GSoC and send notifications 1. Good PDF support (already crafted) 1. Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook though (stickster, quaid, EvilBob) 1. L10N WUI (glezos, couf, quaid) -- Port of GNOME's Damned Lies 1. L10N as front-end to upstream transaltions (quaid, glezos, couf, mmcgrath?) 1. Ask previous FDSCo members to step up for mentoring

1. docs.fp.org 1. Investigate with FIP (on FIL) about subdomain issue (and whether Plone 3 supports it OK) (glezos)

1. L10N 1. Contact poelcat for support in forming a SIG (quaid)

1. Wiki re-organization (couf) 1. For more details review

1. PDFs 1. Go for "Print me" buttons on Docs pages 1. Goal: GSoC project to properly to PDFs

IRC Log

Mar 18 16:00:17 quaid	<meeting>
Mar 18 16:00:30 quaid	Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/MeetingAgenda
Mar 18 16:00:33 quaid	:)
Mar 18 16:01:07 stickster	Good $TIMEOFDAY, everyone
Mar 18 16:01:13 stickster	First up: GSoC
Mar 18 16:01:35 quaid	lots of new energy there this week :)
Mar 18 16:01:49 couf	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode
Mar 18 16:01:56 quaid	yep
Mar 18 16:01:58 glezos	Quoting from 2 hours ago:
Mar 18 16:01:59 glezos	KillerX I'm interested in applying for the docbook to PDF converter project :)
Mar 18 16:02:09 *	quaid saw that confab
Mar 18 16:02:10 stickster	Yup, may have a sucker^Wtaker
Mar 18 16:02:12 glezos	KillerX So I'll whip up a proposal and get back to you then
Mar 18 16:02:34 quaid	well, yeah, rather than back to us, its really, back to the proposal process via code.google.com
Mar 18 16:02:50 glezos	quaid, how about crafting a proposal for L10N WUI?
Mar 18 16:03:10 glezos	mmcgrath also thought it would be a good idea
Mar 18 16:03:11 quaid	ok, but same question I have about timing.
Mar 18 16:03:18 quaid	August seems pretty late
Mar 18 16:03:25 *	quaid looks at Releases/8/Schedule
Mar 18 16:03:31 stickster	Here's KillerX's web site: http://anant.wordpress.com/
Mar 18 16:04:05 quaid	see, the problem is ...
Mar 18 16:04:19 quaid	if you go 6 mon. forward from current string freeze (which is tomorrow)
Mar 18 16:04:25 quaid	that makes string freeze Sep.
Mar 18 16:04:34 quaid	that is awfully close, isn't it?
Mar 18 16:04:49 glezos	quaid, well, we can start with a WUI for statistics (fairly easy) and stage 2 could be the remotely-hosted-PO-thing
Mar 18 16:04:56 stickster	quaid: We could raise that with RelEng and craft a time buffer into the next cycle
Mar 18 16:05:08 stickster	Slips happen, and all
Mar 18 16:05:19 couf	time buffer++
Mar 18 16:06:23 glezos	Do we have any other stuff we'd like to craft as GSoC proposals?
Mar 18 16:06:35 *	stickster notes that string freeze will likely be Tuesday instead
Mar 18 16:06:40 couf	so we've got 3 bounties which have something to do with docs
Mar 18 16:06:46 glezos	For example, say, a Web frontend for DocBook+CVS in Python?
Mar 18 16:07:06 glezos	Ie. port of http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ to Python
Mar 18 16:07:18 glezos	just throwing ideas here
Mar 18 16:07:28 *	quaid doesn't want to port that one, but knows what you mean
Mar 18 16:07:31 couf	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties is the place
Mar 18 16:07:39 quaid	yes, it is the place
Mar 18 16:07:47 stickster	Once again, I think that hiding that in Plone code would be ideal
Mar 18 16:08:01 stickster	Once again, I think that having Plone folks would be ideal++
Mar 18 16:08:09 glezos	stickster, well, port to Python/Plone then
Mar 18 16:08:10 couf	aye Plone++
Mar 18 16:08:11 stickster	heh
Mar 18 16:08:59 *	stickster still thinks we need some expert opinion on using ReST/docutils for easy writing and better portability to DocBook
Mar 18 16:09:08 glezos	There are 800 positions for students.. I guess crafting proposals that will not certainly be used by us doesn't hurt that much
Mar 18 16:10:18 stickster	Wow, that's a load of positions
Mar 18 16:11:15 stickster	OK, so glezos, you want to draft a proposal then? Is there any time left for the students to see it and apply by deadline?
Mar 18 16:11:19 stickster	< 1 week?
Mar 18 16:11:23 quaid	six days
Mar 18 16:11:30 quaid	I need to do the same for the Plone install
Mar 18 16:11:36 quaid	does that count as a student project?
Mar 18 16:11:39 glezos	dunno.. I could write one I guess
Mar 18 16:11:40 stickster	Hmm
Mar 18 16:11:42 quaid	i.e., there isn't much code in a Plone install
Mar 18 16:11:46 stickster	right
Mar 18 16:11:58 stickster	Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook though...
Mar 18 16:12:10 stickster	Whether using ReST go-between or not...
Mar 18 16:12:35 quaid	mspevack_out threw up a request for Plone help internally, and the best so far is a team that just wrangled an install, but they seem to be offering "answers to questions" v. actual task-doing.
Mar 18 16:12:45 stickster	understood
Mar 18 16:12:45 glezos	quaid, maybe dubbing it "Make Plone a publishing platform" and include stuff like the one stickster just mentioned
Mar 18 16:12:47 quaid	ah, plone module, ok
Mar 18 16:13:29 stickster	If you asked me what the scope of that work is, I couldn't begin to tell you.
Mar 18 16:13:49 stickster	I want to get myself to some Plone training but don't see it happening any time soon.
Mar 18 16:13:54 EvilBob	Morning All
Mar 18 16:14:02 EvilBob	Sorry I over slept
Mar 18 16:14:56 couf	we should get a Plone.org guy doing a GSoC for us :)
Mar 18 16:15:13 stickster	Hi Bob
Mar 18 16:15:24 EvilBob	GSoC, damaestro is interested in doing one
Mar 18 16:15:27 couf	alas, the deadline is very very soon
Mar 18 16:15:37 stickster	OK, before we get too off-track, maybe we should set the action items for this and move on
Mar 18 16:15:45 EvilBob	A plone item would be right up his alley
Mar 18 16:16:19 quaid	ok
Mar 18 16:16:22 quaid	that might do it
Mar 18 16:16:29 quaid	I'll write up the plone thing
Mar 18 16:16:37 stickster	suggestion: Notify Anant to let him know where to send proposal
Mar 18 16:16:41 quaid	glezos if you can post up a first pass at the l10n wui
Mar 18 16:16:57 glezos	quaid, I think you have a clearer idea for it.. :)
Mar 18 16:17:04 quaid	how did KillerX find us here and not find the Google page?
Mar 18 16:17:08 glezos	I can expand on it
Mar 18 16:17:10 quaid	glezos: oh :)
Mar 18 16:17:10 quaid	ok
Mar 18 16:17:11 stickster	no idea :-D
Mar 18 16:17:17 quaid	I'll put up first passes at both, then
Mar 18 16:17:28 glezos	quaid, thanks.
Mar 18 16:17:44 couf	ok, who's mentoring or wants to help mentoring?
Mar 18 16:18:01 glezos	I can mentor for L10N WUI
Mar 18 16:18:16 quaid	looks like anant.wordpress.org has links to SoC site already, I reckon we don't need to contact him wit hthat
Mar 18 16:18:17 couf	glezos: /me can co-mentor on that one
Mar 18 16:19:06 glezos	how can we make sure the applicants indeed take it seriously and will walk it through?
Mar 18 16:19:26 couf	basicly the money does it all :)
Mar 18 16:19:27 stickster	quaid: Good point, /me needs to read more
Mar 18 16:20:12 couf	anyone want to take the PDF conversion?
Mar 18 16:20:54 stickster	I can't commit for any mentoring this summer, my schedule is more than spoken for at this point :-\
Mar 18 16:21:13 stickster	I'm happy to drop in and advise ad-hoc anytime though
Mar 18 16:21:20 quaid	hmm
Mar 18 16:21:35 stickster	"asst. mentor"
Mar 18 16:21:38 quaid	I was looking to step back a bit and give others a chance to mentor
Mar 18 16:21:51 quaid	maybe we can co-mentor on the Plone one and I'll catch all the slack
Mar 18 16:22:51 stickster	Guys, we need to get quaid out of doing every task.  I wish I could do more but I can't commit more time until probably around July.
Mar 18 16:23:09 EvilBob	I am willing to co-mentor however It would not be right to Mentor Damaestro because of our other working relationship
Mar 18 16:23:37 stickster	Oh, do you employ him on the side? Like $$$?
Mar 18 16:23:42 glezos	is there no chance any older FDSCo members to help out?
Mar 18 16:23:42 stickster	or maybe just 1 $  :-D
Mar 18 16:23:53 quaid	we'll have to ask
Mar 18 16:23:54 EvilBob	stickster: something like that
Mar 18 16:24:00 quaid	we can proceed and work out the mentoring as we go, too
Mar 18 16:24:19 couf	sure
Mar 18 16:24:26 EvilBob	stickster: he is a resource in my business I will put it that way
Mar 18 16:24:33 stickster	I see
Mar 18 16:25:01 couf	Shall we move on?
Mar 18 16:25:13 quaid	k
Mar 18 16:25:32 glezos	I should mention that mmcgrath might be interested in co-mentoring the L10N WUI too (the multi-repository thing anyway).
Mar 18 16:25:54 glezos	docs.fedoraproject.org
Mar 18 16:26:20 glezos	quaid, any comments/updates?
Mar 18 16:26:45 *	hers has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000] ")
Mar 18 16:27:31 quaid	you know ...
Mar 18 16:27:40 stickster	Hmm, mmcgrath as mentor -- great way to ensure things are Done Right
Mar 18 16:27:45 stickster	s/mentor/co-mentor/
Mar 18 16:28:16 quaid	I'm unclear, sorry, if when we tag LIVE in CVS which site it is going to
Mar 18 16:28:25 quaid	I've asked mmcgrath but I haven't noticed his response :)
Mar 18 16:28:36 stickster	quaid: I haven't tried it lately to see
Mar 18 16:28:43 quaid	we need the LIVE tagging to affect docs.fp.o now
Mar 18 16:28:47 quaid	so we can reorganize that side
Mar 18 16:28:50 couf	iirc, it's still only going to f.r.c
Mar 18 16:29:20 stickster	Does Mike know where that CVS=>Web glue is on f.r.c?
Mar 18 16:29:21 *	quaid posted a change last week, looks
Mar 18 16:29:25 quaid	he does
Mar 18 16:29:45 glezos	I know it's pretty late, but I'd like once more to raise the issue of doing it under fp.org/docs/
Mar 18 16:29:53 quaid	ok, that change went to fr.c
Mar 18 16:30:19 quaid	glezos: FI said it would be easier to handle a sub-domain
Mar 18 16:30:31 quaid	and we want one URL, right?
Mar 18 16:30:38 stickster	yup
Mar 18 16:30:41 quaid	and there is an existing trend in the project to use name.fp.org
Mar 18 16:30:42 couf	+1
Mar 18 16:30:54 quaid	hosted.fp.org, cvs.fp.o, git.fp.org, etc.
Mar 18 16:31:30 stickster	quaid: What was your change?
Mar 18 16:31:34 stickster	nm
Mar 18 16:31:46 quaid	http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/s1-ui-gnome-guidelines.html
Mar 18 16:32:05 glezos	if plone comes, it will be under fp.org/. If we then decide to integrate docs in there, we'd do it at fp.org/docs/, right?
Mar 18 16:32:07 quaid	wrapped HIG citetitle with a url
Mar 18 16:32:12 quaid	glezos: nope
Mar 18 16:32:24 quaid	glezos: that is our choice, right?
Mar 18 16:32:36 glezos	quaid, ok.. I'm just trying to make sure we won't have to make redirects in the future.
Mar 18 16:32:51 quaid	well, we likely want to redirect from /docs
Mar 18 16:33:05 glezos	ok.
Mar 18 16:33:08 couf	with Plone we could have fp.org/docs which collects links to docs.fp.org
Mar 18 16:33:13 quaid	let's put it this way ...
Mar 18 16:33:24 quaid	we can still debate this, if we want
Mar 18 16:33:29 quaid	 I'm not locked in anything
Mar 18 16:33:38 quaid	and yes this is the best/last chance, I think
Mar 18 16:34:05 stickster	But if FI has reasons why they want it docs.fp.o, argue it there
Mar 18 16:34:10 quaid	mike said we can do it any way we want, but the sub-dmain was "easier" or "better" I disrecall which
Mar 18 16:34:14 quaid	but it is up to us what we want
Mar 18 16:34:36 stickster	I haven't observed us really caring one way or the other, so we yield to FI
Mar 18 16:34:49 stickster	As long as Google leads readers to the good stuff
Mar 18 16:35:00 glezos	quaid, I don't have a preference. Only to not have to change it in the future.
Mar 18 16:35:19 stickster	We shouldn't have to, I would think.
Mar 18 16:35:35 stickster	mod_rewrite makes everything OK, yes?
Mar 18 16:35:58 glezos	stickster, well.. not exactly. Cookies might have a problem for subdomains for example.
Mar 18 16:36:23 stickster	That only depends on our giving them out properly, though, right?
Mar 18 16:36:25 glezos	My only reservation is that subdomains are usually totally separate systems or software. They serve completely different functionality. But sure, with mod_rewrites you can get it all done.
Mar 18 16:36:38 EvilBob	!
Mar 18 16:36:42 stickster	Again, this is for an FI argument. As a Doc'er, I totally don't care.
Mar 18 16:37:04 glezos	OK, let's move on. I don't want to delay discussions. I will talk it up with mmcgrath to make sure.
Mar 18 16:37:09 EvilBob	I would suggest our plone work happen under fp.o
Mar 18 16:37:39 EvilBob	use docs.fp.o for published xml results
Mar 18 16:38:02 quaid	yet docs.fp.o is going to be a plone front-end
Mar 18 16:38:10 quaid	that is, it will be a virtual folder or something, right?
Mar 18 16:38:44 glezos	quaid, no idea.
Mar 18 16:38:50 EvilBob	I would think that d.fp.o would be static only
Mar 18 16:39:22 stickster	I disagree, I see GNOME using subdomains for working projects
Mar 18 16:39:31 stickster	And they're using Plone AIUI
Mar 18 16:40:02 *	glezos is OK with both ways.
Mar 18 16:40:50 glezos	shall we move on?
Mar 18 16:40:53 quaid	EvilBob: I think static is orthogonal in this case; yes static output, but it should be put in that location by plone via  workflow
Mar 18 16:40:56 quaid	well
Mar 18 16:41:01 quaid	I guess I'm not done
Mar 18 16:41:04 stickster	heh
Mar 18 16:41:13 quaid	I want to get a "litmus test" here
Mar 18 16:41:37 quaid	Red Hat IS 'recommends' that we just redirect from f.r.c/* to fp.org and let people find what they want from there
Mar 18 16:41:56 quaid	this is because they maintain a >1000 line set of redirects around redhat.com and say it is crazy-making
Mar 18 16:42:13 quaid	so, mmcgrath and I discussed and we recommend a mod_rewrite rule
Mar 18 16:42:31 quaid	that will preserve the post / content and let us parse it on the Fedora side (so no hassle to RH IS any more)
Mar 18 16:42:52 glezos	quaid, sounds rational.
Mar 18 16:42:58 quaid	so, this is still in negotiation, afaict; since we don't get to tell them what to do but only ask, we can't be sure how things are going to land.
Mar 18 16:43:05 quaid	so there is a chance it will be the first
Mar 18 16:43:17 quaid	that is, all redirect to front page, start googlejuice from scratch, etc.
Mar 18 16:43:29 EvilBob	NOTE: there are issues when using multiple domains and subdomains in plone
Mar 18 16:43:45 quaid	my assumption is that this is bad from a user experience, but I want to hear from ya'll
Mar 18 16:43:51 quaid	EvilBob: what about subdomains in one domain/.
Mar 18 16:43:52 quaid	?
Mar 18 16:44:11 EvilBob	that is what I was trying to make clear and failed
Mar 18 16:44:39 quaid	EvilBob: meaning, subs in one domain should be OK, but across multiple domains is crazy?
Mar 18 16:44:44 EvilBob	quaid: each (sub)domain requires a swperate plone instance
Mar 18 16:45:07 EvilBob	errr instance is the wrong word
Mar 18 16:45:38 EvilBob	testing.fu.o is not the same plone site as fu.o for example
Mar 18 16:46:01 stickster	Can't it be, if you mod_rewrite from Apache as the front end?
Mar 18 16:46:19 glezos	Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for a software system to choke with subdomains.. That's why usually they are intended for different systems (bugzilla, cvs-frontend, web content). Heck, even web designers have problems (grabbing images with relative paths)
Mar 18 16:46:21 EvilBob	each and every one of the unity sites are separate
Mar 18 16:47:27 glezos	We can further discuss this on the mailing list CCed with -infrastructure.
Mar 18 16:47:51 quaid	how a bout just on f-i-l?
Mar 18 16:47:52 stickster	glezos++
Mar 18 16:47:59 glezos	quaid, ok
Mar 18 16:47:59 stickster	Oops, I'm not on f-i-l
Mar 18 16:48:00 quaid	since it's really a technical issue
Mar 18 16:48:01 EvilBob	we have hacked together a system that shares the user accounts but the content is completely separate and you need to login when changing name space
Mar 18 16:48:04 quaid	stickster: :D
Mar 18 16:48:12 quaid	EvilBob: ok, great point, thanks
Mar 18 16:48:14 *	stickster refuses to join another mailing list until he drops at least two
Mar 18 16:48:19 stickster	:-d
Mar 18 16:48:21 stickster	:-d
Mar 18 16:48:26 quaid	stickster: i've got some suggestions ... :D
Mar 18 16:48:29 stickster	aw, hell with it
Mar 18 16:48:30 stickster	heh
Mar 18 16:48:42 stickster	awright, trans update
Mar 18 16:49:28 quaid	is that me?
Mar 18 16:49:31 *	quaid guesses so
Mar 18 16:49:45 couf	hmm no it's glezos  :)
Mar 18 16:49:50 quaid	oh, good
Mar 18 16:49:56 quaid	except I guess I have something to report to him :)
Mar 18 16:50:04 couf	then go on :)
Mar 18 16:50:09 glezos	um
Mar 18 16:50:18 glezos	well, I tried GNOME's Damned Lies interface
Mar 18 16:50:44 quaid	on Friday i talked with mmcgrath and poelcat (John Poelstra); poelcat is now looking into the feasibility of him being a facilitator within Red hat for those parts
Mar 18 16:50:49 glezos	Which seems to have future. I contacted it's maintainer and he said he's willing to help out in porting (it's already well written and supoprts modules etc)
Mar 18 16:50:54 quaid	meaning we'd need to PM the Fedora side ourselves
Mar 18 16:51:35 glezos	The second part of L10N WUI that quaid and I are thinking is make it possible to serve remotely-hosted POs (ie act as a SCM client)
Mar 18 16:51:47 glezos	See: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR/L10nCVSandUI
Mar 18 16:52:00 *	EvilBob is away (phone)
Mar 18 16:52:05 glezos	Sonar_Gal, if we find a student to investigate these two for GSoC we'd be perfect.
Mar 18 16:52:14 couf	poor Sonar_Gal
Mar 18 16:52:15 glezos	agr. So, So, *So*
Mar 18 16:52:47 glezos	We could also write them as two different proposals, right?
Mar 18 16:53:50 stickster	11 min/me reads
Mar 18 16:53:55 stickster	oops, I mean:
Mar 18 16:53:59 stickster	me reads
Mar 18 16:54:58 quaid	from what I was reporting, a different twist has come up that I think we should address/decide upon
Mar 18 16:55:04 quaid	but I'm unclear if it is ours to decide :)
Mar 18 16:55:10 quaid	so maybe a step back ...
Mar 18 16:55:18 quaid	do we feel we have enough representation from all the involved communities?
Mar 18 16:55:29 quaid	to form a short-term SIG so we can vote/decide on stuff.
Mar 18 16:55:57 stickster	having couf and glezos here helps, but we should probably reach out for some more input, yes
Mar 18 16:55:59 quaid	in that I don't think this is really FDSCo's to decide ...
Mar 18 16:56:08 couf	hmm, good question, sig++ both involvment: not that much imo
Mar 18 16:56:11 quaid	ok, so here is the ponderable ...
Mar 18 16:56:30 couf	s/both/but
Mar 18 16:56:33 quaid	poelcat is checking on a possible resource offer from the group that 'owns' elvis.rh.c internally
Mar 18 16:56:57 quaid	not knowing yet what that means ... I want to figure out what parameters we have for accepting such help/.
Mar 18 16:57:05 quaid	for example, here are two ways I could see help coming:
Mar 18 16:57:22 quaid	i. Help comes to work within the community on a joint solution; sharing of resources; Fedora/RHEL model, etc.
Mar 18 16:57:49 quaid	ii. Help comes to "fix" problems in elvis.rh.c, and keeps all their work and processes internal until they are ready for us to start testing externally
Mar 18 16:58:02 quaid	would we want help in both of those cases?  or only in i)?
Mar 18 16:58:06 stickster	only i.
Mar 18 16:58:34 couf	only i
Mar 18 16:58:58 quaid	I share this feeling :)
Mar 18 16:59:05 quaid	but ...
Mar 18 16:59:15 quaid	the problem is I don't speak the 100+ languages of our trans community
Mar 18 16:59:19 glezos	quaid, I'm for i too, and AFAICT, mspevack shares this opinion.
Mar 18 16:59:29 quaid	and what if 80% of them want "big Daddy Red hat" to take care of this for them, and they don't care
Mar 18 16:59:53 glezos	(ie bring Fedora-affected systems & processes to the community space)
Mar 18 17:00:01 couf	hmm, I'm noticing a change of attitude towards this on the trans-list, people are stepping up
Mar 18 17:00:06 quaid	I'm concerned that we are acting from a perceived opinion, that is, we perceive that the rest of the l10n community shares our opinion, when we can't directly know that because of lang and cultural differences
Mar 18 17:00:28 couf	and are feeling things have to change
Mar 18 17:00:37 glezos	quaid, I'll make that clear enough: 99% of the L10N community does translations for Fedora, not RHEL.
Mar 18 17:00:46 quaid	yes, but does "vocal" == "majority"?
Mar 18 17:00:53 quaid	glezos: :)
Mar 18 17:01:10 couf	quaid: fair enough
Mar 18 17:01:17 stickster	We want to avoid disenfranchising folks, especially since it could affect overall Fedora l10n
Mar 18 17:01:52 stickster	But FOSS has always been about taking ownership/responsibility for doing things
Mar 18 17:02:06 quaid	ok
Mar 18 17:02:08 glezos	stickster, certainly. But we need to be able to do our jobs. We want to do much more than what elvis can provide and we are willing to do them quickly.
Mar 18 17:02:10 stickster	We could take a better quality, lower drag poll, I suppose
Mar 18 17:02:20 couf	the big problem is that not everyone is on the list, and looks at it
Mar 18 17:02:25 quaid	right
Mar 18 17:02:26 stickster	If people don't have to write an email to the list, we may get more responses.
Mar 18 17:02:34 stickster	sure, there's that as ewll.
Mar 18 17:02:39 stickster	s/ewll/well/
Mar 18 17:02:42 quaid	and the thing is ... the translators who work for RH are on many sub-lists and they could tell us, but what would they tell us?
Mar 18 17:02:57 *	EvilBob is off the phone
Mar 18 17:03:19 EvilBob	I need to run, buddy is broke down....
Mar 18 17:03:21 quaid	ok, I guess the point is not really moot
Mar 18 17:03:25 quaid	EvilBob: cheers
Mar 18 17:03:34 glezos	My goal for L10N WUI is for it to support upstream translations. If this works, then RH could use it for any project it likes.
Mar 18 17:03:43 quaid	in that Fedora leadership doesn't want systems that happen behind doors for us to "benefit" from
Mar 18 17:03:54 quaid	we have taken the lesser-quality-for-now because it is open stance
Mar 18 17:04:13 quaid	glezos: +1 we could do this the right way, for sure
Mar 18 17:04:24 stickster	We can attract more interest and participation by simply starting the gears turning
Mar 18 17:04:31 quaid	ok, I just wanted to be sure we all agreed oon this direction, and my thinking was sound.
Mar 18 17:05:10 *	stickster wants to make sure someone keeps in the back of their head that we would like to connect this, as well, to Plone in the far-flung future if at all possible
Mar 18 17:05:11 glezos	Ideally, this shift towards the community space will benefit all of us. So, I see the best thing would be for RH L10N team to help materialize our vision, just like the Merge.
Mar 18 17:05:28 quaid	glezos: I saw you wondering about "does scml10n need to sign the GPG" and I can't see any way around it
Mar 18 17:05:33 quaid	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/CLAAcceptanceHierarchies#preview
Mar 18 17:05:44 stickster	glezos: Right.  The reason that has worked out so well is that people Just Did It.
Mar 18 17:05:44 quaid	the proposal there is clear -- once in SCM, the risk is higher, etc.
Mar 18 17:05:50 stickster	Extras is the biggest success story in Fedora
Mar 18 17:05:52 couf	yeah certainly CLA for cvsl10n
Mar 18 17:06:08 quaid	note that ... Fedora didn't do the best internal marketing job around the mere
Mar 18 17:06:09 stickster	quaid: CLA++
Mar 18 17:06:11 quaid	merge
Mar 18 17:06:18 glezos	quaid, right now they don't have to sign the CLA for i18n.redhat.com.
Mar 18 17:06:25 quaid	and we are trying to avoid stepping in that bear trap
Mar 18 17:06:36 quaid	glezos: yes, I know; they should have; IMNSHO that was a big mistake
Mar 18 17:06:44 stickster	quaid: I'm not so sure that it was a bad job... but I don't see the internal lists. ;-)
Mar 18 17:06:44 couf	glezos: CLA was concieved after i18n
Mar 18 17:06:49 quaid	we are shipping lots of content we don't have a clear right to use, unless there is something in i18n I don't get
Mar 18 17:07:06 stickster	There hasn't been much public grumbling, and what there was of it was mostly due to misunderstandings and people entrenching for no good reason.
Mar 18 17:07:11 glezos	quaid, there is an alternative. Give the option through the WUI for a person to submit a translation and the language maintainer has to approve/commit it.
Mar 18 17:07:30 quaid	glezos: sure
Mar 18 17:07:38 quaid	glezos: that's like the Wiki model
Mar 18 17:07:43 couf	QA is realy needed
Mar 18 17:07:49 quaid	they still need to agree to something when submitting that is essentially the CLA :)
Mar 18 17:07:58 quaid	that is, the WikiLicense is really the CLA + OPL
Mar 18 17:08:00 glezos	OK. Once we have a prototype WUI we can figure more complex stuff then.
Mar 18 17:08:14 stickster	This all comes back to the click-through, waiting on Legal.
Mar 18 17:08:30 quaid	I think it is a big mistake to ever debate if a contribution "should" be under the CLA
Mar 18 17:08:46 quaid	when an Ambassador makes a speach, it's a contribution, needs to be covered, etc.
Mar 18 17:09:01 quaid	stickster: working on that one :)
Mar 18 17:09:25 quaid	my "PlainEnglishCLA" did offend, which I was afraid of :), and got justly shot-down
Mar 18 17:09:31 glezos	quaid, let's just say that the actual committer takes responsibility for the submitted contributions. I think these are slightly minor issues.
Mar 18 17:09:35 stickster	Careful with extending the license agreement to vocal speech
Mar 18 17:09:41 *	quaid had called it "HumanSpeakCLA" but changed that to not offend the lawyers
Mar 18 17:09:56 glezos	lol
Mar 18 17:09:59 quaid	glezos: good point, like bugzilla; minor point
Mar 18 17:10:11 stickster	I think you'd find a lot of trouble in that.  If it's a written presentation that's held somewhere or committed to paper, sure... but speech is not generally licensed :-)
Mar 18 17:10:23 quaid	stickster: yes, I mean, written and put on wiki
Mar 18 17:10:25 stickster	heh
Mar 18 17:10:25 quaid	or whatever
Mar 18 17:10:30 stickster	ok, +1 that
Mar 18 17:10:40 quaid	I just mean, don't try to classify what is or is not a contribution
Mar 18 17:10:42 couf	:)
Mar 18 17:10:46 stickster	right
Mar 18 17:10:51 quaid	rather classify what is the risk in taking that contribution
Mar 18 17:10:52 stickster	If it goes in, it has to be covered, period.
Mar 18 17:11:01 stickster	If we hold on to it, it has to be covered.
Mar 18 17:11:10 quaid	and applyu CLA difficulties by risk levels
Mar 18 17:11:22 quaid	submit via bugzilla or ml as a patch, low risk, etc.
Mar 18 17:11:43 quaid	ok, we've beaten on this one enough?
Mar 18 17:11:49 glezos	guess so
Mar 18 17:11:54 quaid	I'll let you know what poelcat says
Mar 18 17:12:00 quaid	but we're essentially on our own on the Fedora side
Mar 18 17:12:13 couf	yay
Mar 18 17:12:24 quaid	and we're seeking clarity on what "don't break our system" means so we can achieve or reject that
Mar 18 17:12:56 stickster	OK, so back to agenda then... wiki reorg ==> couf
Mar 18 17:13:01 stickster	yes?
Mar 18 17:13:17 couf	all right
Mar 18 17:13:44 couf	everyone has seen it, and approved right?
Mar 18 17:14:13 couf	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00039.html
Mar 18 17:15:10 stickster	Yes, with comments as posted earlier
Mar 18 17:15:11 couf	I'm just looking for the best way to get this started
Mar 18 17:15:33 *	quaid admits to not having dived into that one
Mar 18 17:15:38 couf	i) get an wiki from FI (RFR)
Mar 18 17:15:42 glezos	couf, write a wiki page with the structure as bullets?
Mar 18 17:15:51 couf	ii) personal wiki-userspace
Mar 18 17:16:14 couf	iii) just dive in
Mar 18 17:16:22 glezos	I'd vote for iii)
Mar 18 17:16:33 stickster	iii)
Mar 18 17:16:49 quaid	fine with me
Mar 18 17:17:16 stickster	couf: See how much you can do by only reorganizing, and cutting, pages
Mar 18 17:17:21 stickster	Rather than writing *more*
Mar 18 17:17:22 couf	right on, I'm planning on doing this in the next two weeks
Mar 18 17:17:37 couf	stickster: I'm going for less rather than more
Mar 18 17:17:48 stickster	We can always hand-craft later as needed
Mar 18 17:17:52 quaid	yes, odds are, what we need is there, and needs to be trimmed and combined
Mar 18 17:18:02 stickster	hoo-rah
Mar 18 17:18:54 stickster	couf: Anything else you need before starting?
Mar 18 17:19:25 couf	hmm, not really, I'm gonna setup a template this week
Mar 18 17:19:29 quaid	ref. Docs/Drafts => DocsProject/Drafts ... I think we want to keep those in Docs/ because we want people to 'beta test' them
Mar 18 17:19:48 stickster	Yeah, I think someone mentioned that on the list... hmmm, lemmesee
Mar 18 17:20:09 couf	yeah I got that one :)
Mar 18 17:20:19 quaid	ok, good
Mar 18 17:20:24 *	quaid missed that, just read through the thread
Mar 18 17:20:27 stickster	coo'
Mar 18 17:20:36 quaid	otherwise it sounds great to me, and I'll help wherever I can as we proceed
Mar 18 17:20:46 *	stickster notes, moving up on 90 minutes, meeting red alert!
Mar 18 17:20:46 couf	okay guys, in two weeks the project-wiki will be totaly different :)
Mar 18 17:20:59 couf	cool
Mar 18 17:21:10 couf	let's move on then :)
Mar 18 17:21:42 stickster	OK, PDF
Mar 18 17:21:44 couf	Last item on list is PDF
Mar 18 17:21:46 glezos	next subject: PDF guides. Should we bother going after them *now* or wait for F7 to make them through the tolchain?
Mar 18 17:22:08 stickster	I would rather do this right (and leverage GSoC) than do it twice
Mar 18 17:22:51 glezos	stickster, we could get F7 IG in PDF with cups-pdf with a couple of clicks..
Mar 18 17:23:05 *	stickster has yet to see a stunning argument for PDF production other than allowing people to print something prettier than HTML, which isn't necessarily in our interests...
Mar 18 17:23:35 *	glezos thinks PDFs will increase the popularity of our Docs
Mar 18 17:23:37 stickster	We can allow users to do this now with a print CSS and save the trouble
Mar 18 17:23:50 glezos	people just save it on their Desktops for future reference for example...
Mar 18 17:23:52 stickster	In the web includes: "Print me!"
Mar 18 17:24:05 stickster	For future reference when? After they install?
Mar 18 17:24:17 stickster	We want people to come back for the latest version
Mar 18 17:24:17 quaid	it's all about different styles
Mar 18 17:24:30 stickster	yeah, I'm not opposed to PDF at all, just for the record
Mar 18 17:24:36 quaid	enough people like the PDF style for a guide, but honestly its hard to tell how much it matters
Mar 18 17:25:13 glezos	I guess people just don't know that some HTML is very nicely printable
Mar 18 17:25:17 stickster	I just think having to keep up with republishing manually is dreary
Mar 18 17:25:36 stickster	glezos: the "Print Me" button can take care of that.
Mar 18 17:25:38 couf	right, we should just have the "print me" link on the page and let users do it
Mar 18 17:25:57 *	stickster has printed several articles from RHM for example, to distribute to bosses and peers
Mar 18 17:26:01 quaid	that would be worth rebuilding docs for, yes
Mar 18 17:26:32 stickster	Well, the print me button should appear courtesy of SSI's and not in our publishing process, IYAM
Mar 18 17:26:35 quaid	since some of them aren't even buildable but need porting to the new Makefile/tools
Mar 18 17:26:51 couf	and if anyone comes up with *the* solution to PDF production, we'll handle it then
Mar 18 17:27:03 glezos	anyway. just thinking that people do like PDFs, not sure for what reasons though... probably the self-packed one-file-contains-everything idea
Mar 18 17:27:06 stickster	Oh I see, you mean, "Wow, I'd even fix <XYZ> doc if it got that button slapped on it"
Mar 18 17:27:57 stickster	For our *real* PDF's, I really want an actual to-die-for style, including stylish page markings and sidebars from admonitions.
Mar 18 17:28:17 couf	stickster++
Mar 18 17:28:20 glezos	stickster+++
Mar 18 17:28:22 *	couf has to bail
Mar 18 17:28:35 glezos	we've even found a name for the style... to-die-for.xsl
Mar 18 17:29:00 couf	see ya (buffer rolling)
Mar 18 17:29:04 *	couf is now known as couf_away
Mar 18 17:29:10 stickster	heh
Mar 18 17:29:15 stickster	bye couf
Mar 18 17:29:50 glezos	Haven't received any emails on this: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00139.html
Mar 18 17:29:54 quaid	so, can we do the SSI version?
Mar 18 17:30:23 stickster	quaid: that depends on how we publish to docs.fp.o
Mar 18 17:30:34 quaid	stickster: today it is the same as f.r.c
Mar 18 17:30:37 stickster	Right now, there's bare PHP sitting up there with nothing backing it up
Mar 18 17:30:42 quaid	and is likely to stay that way for a while
Mar 18 17:31:08 stickster	So we certainly can move the includes there as well, and restyle if necessary
Mar 18 17:31:41 stickster	Is PHP running on that host? And is it likely to?
Mar 18 17:31:43 stickster	(if not)
Mar 18 17:32:09 stickster	glezos: Give it a couple days, weekend work is sketchy
Mar 18 17:32:10 quaid	I don't know how he has it set up
Mar 18 17:32:22 stickster	me neither
Mar 18 17:32:37 quaid	well, presumably like before
Mar 18 17:32:48 quaid	PHP builds static pages on the backend
Mar 18 17:33:07 quaid	I can include the SSI wherever we want
Mar 18 17:33:19 stickster	Yeah, I think we need the images up there too
Mar 18 17:33:42 stickster	And the CSS for now, so we can monkey with it
Mar 18 17:33:50 stickster	Wait... where will we access all that?
Mar 18 17:34:07 quaid	via cvs
Mar 18 17:34:08 stickster	Oh, I guess if he just hooks those in from the Web module in CVS the same way, should be fine
Mar 18 17:34:11 stickster	jinx
Mar 18 17:34:27 quaid	yep, and I'm ready to reorganize to chop out all the non-docs from the Nav
Mar 18 17:34:28 stickster	OK, may have just missed those pieces then
Mar 18 17:34:37 stickster	I can help too
Mar 18 17:34:40 quaid	cool
Mar 18 17:34:45 stickster	The "Print Me" shouldn't be too hard
Mar 18 17:35:01 quaid	let's first get the word that pub of LIVE is on docs.fp.o, which it appears it is not
Mar 18 17:35:10 stickster	We'll add a publishing bit for html-nochunks to fit into, that would be the best printable I would think
Mar 18 17:35:40 glezos	CSS can do very neat things.. unfortunately not everything, but OK.
Mar 18 17:36:22 mmcgrath	quaid: I'll set that up today (the whole live publish)