Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080723

stickster	<meeting>	23 Jul 15:01
stickster	Roll call!	23 Jul 15:01
Sparks	here!	23 Jul 15:02
stickster	Sparks: Well heck, it could be just you and me for a little bit.	23 Jul 15:02
stickster	quaid will be back here by about UTC 1915.	23 Jul 15:02
stickster	Sparks: I'll start off with something not on the agenda	23 Jul 15:03
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - (non-agenda) Features		23 Jul 15:03
stickster	Sparks: IIRC, I got you together with poelcat for some work on Feature pages	23 Jul 15:03
stickster	Have you looked at the revamping that we did to the policy stuff? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy	23 Jul 15:04
Sparks	I have not.	23 Jul 15:04
Sparks	I've been on travel last week and this week and I don't foresee coming up for air until later this weekend.	23 Jul 15:05
stickster	Oh wow!	23 Jul 15:05
stickster	Yet you're here anyway -- thanks and sorry	23 Jul 15:05
stickster	I forgot it was two weeks!	23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_afk		23 Jul 15:05
* ianweller_afk is floating around the channel and might be here or not		23 Jul 15:05
Sparks	Yeah... Been to DC and to Florida	23 Jul 15:05
* stickster ducks the floating head of ianweller_afk		23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_afk	wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee	23 Jul 15:05
ianweller_maybea	-darn	23 Jul 15:06
stickster	Sparks: Well, there's a further refinement to the policy that John will be pushing through FESCo this week	23 Jul 15:06
stickster	It changes the way the queue works	23 Jul 15:06
Sparks	Interesting.	23 Jul 15:06
stickster	Hopefully the result means a less confusing process for everyone	23 Jul 15:06
Sparks		23 Jul 15:06
* Sparks needs to read up on this		23 Jul 15:06
stickster	Sparks: Let me see if I can find you a URL	23 Jul 15:07
stickster	Sparks: Hm, just hit me up after this, I'll look later	23 Jul 15:08
stickster	Sparks: Anyway, I'm assuming you're still planning on helping John with some of this work	23 Jul 15:08
Sparks	ok	23 Jul 15:08
Sparks	I am	23 Jul 15:08
stickster	cool!	23 Jul 15:08
stickster	that's all, just a FYI	23 Jul 15:08
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - back on agenda!		23 Jul 15:09
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - jds2001 request for boilerplate		23 Jul 15:09
stickster	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00040.html	23 Jul 15:10
stickster	This is a bit silly for me to do this agenda if Sparks is the only one here.	23 Jul 15:10
Sparks	Probably	23 Jul 15:11
stickster	It's like me being in a room with one other person, yelling "Is there *anyone* here who will take this action item?"	23 Jul 15:11
stickster	"*ANYONE?*"	23 Jul 15:11
Sparks		23 Jul 15:11
* Sparks coughs and looks down as if to find something in his bag		23 Jul 15:11
stickster	haha	23 Jul 15:11
ian_maybeafk	-hmm, productive meeting	23 Jul 15:11
ian_maybeafk	-;)	23 Jul 15:11
stickster	ian_maybeafk: Certainly it's fast.	23 Jul 15:11
stickster	ian_maybeafk: I don't get it.	23 Jul 15:11
stickster	ian_maybeafk: We have the easiest process ever now for getting involved. Everyone complained about DocBook XML. We moved to more wiki.	23 Jul 15:12
stickster	They complained getting a wiki account was too hard. We took that barrier away.	23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk	-hmmph	23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk	-maybe it's the mediawiki syntax	23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk	-i was going to create a mediawiki syntax cheat-shirt	23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk	-where all the syntax info is upside down	23 Jul 15:12
ian_maybeafk	-(so you can read it)	23 Jul 15:13
stickster	heh	23 Jul 15:13
ian_maybeafk	-maybe a short training video/screencast would help	23 Jul 15:13
stickster	ian_maybeafk: AHA!	23 Jul 15:14
fugolini	hi	23 Jul 15:14
stickster	ian_maybeafk: Now you're talking.	23 Jul 15:14
ian_maybeafk	-\o/	23 Jul 15:14
stickster	ian_maybeafk: I just happen to be well equipped to make such a screencast.	23 Jul 15:14
ian_maybeafk	-well well well	23 Jul 15:14
stickster	ian_maybeafk: Sounds like I've got something to work on later today	23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk	-of course, we still haven't decided on a wiki organization schema	23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk	-which might be an important part of learning docs writing on the wiki	23 Jul 15:15
stickster	*pffft	23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk	-i'm assuming at this point there's no way we're ever going to completely flatten the wiki and go to complete categorization.	23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk	-it seems almost impossible	23 Jul 15:15
stickster	As long as we have a "move" function, I'm more concerned with getting people to actually participate in the wiki gardening.	23 Jul 15:15
stickster	(which topic is coming up later.)	23 Jul 15:15
ian_maybeafk	-oh excellent	23 Jul 15:16
ian_maybeafk	-:)	23 Jul 15:16
stickster	So jds2001 asked us for a boilerplate contact letter for FOSS projects -- one written by someone who was entirely focused on positive outreach, so that the person using the boilerplate doesn't have to edit themselves 10 times over to avoid offending the recipient.	23 Jul 15:16
stickster	s/themselves/himself/	23 Jul 15:17
stickster	I'll draft something and make it available for comment and refiling	23 Jul 15:18
stickster	Release notes status!	23 Jul 15:18
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - Release Notes status		23 Jul 15:19
stickster	Has anyone visited the new hosted project site?	23 Jul 15:19
stickster	https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes	23 Jul 15:19
stickster	Hmm, not compelling enough?	23 Jul 15:20
stickster	We now have the release notes in that repo building successfully with publican.	23 Jul 15:21
ian_maybeafk	-	23 Jul 15:21
* ian_maybeafk feels bad leaving stickster in a meeting with himself :<		23 Jul 15:21
stickster	There are milestones set up in the Trac repo, but I need help -- mainly asking people to file "tasks" that they see aren't done.	23 Jul 15:21
stickster	ian_maybeafk: I think Sparks is still here	23 Jul 15:22
stickster	Maybe he's still looking for something in his bag. :-)	23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk	-hehe	23 Jul 15:22
stickster	quaid is supposed to be back shortly.	23 Jul 15:22
stickster	Then we can, you know, talk to each other.	23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk	-hehe	23 Jul 15:22
ian_maybeafk	-	23 Jul 15:23
* ian_maybeafk goes to check out the magic in the release-notes git repo		23 Jul 15:23
stickster	ian_maybeafk: I wrote some intro pages for how to use it -- keeping in mind that Docs people may not understand git	23 Jul 15:23
ian_maybeafk	-right-o	23 Jul 15:24
stickster	ian_maybeafk: So it's a cookbook approach. If something there looks really wrong to you, I can get you access so you can fix the wording/commands	23 Jul 15:24
stickster	https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/wiki/HowToHelp	23 Jul 15:24
Sparks		23 Jul 15:24
* Sparks is here... Trying to dodge the weather and reply to thousands of email that are still pending.		23 Jul 15:24
stickster	hee hee	23 Jul 15:25
stickster	Anyway, work is progressing steadily.	23 Jul 15:25
stickster	And with that, we come to quaid's item on wiki gardening status.	23 Jul 15:26
stickster	I've been doing some of this as I go along -- the Feature process was one such victim.	23 Jul 15:26
ian_maybeafk	-	23 Jul 15:26
* ian_maybeafk notes his friend is here, so who knows whether i'll be here or not		23 Jul 15:26
stickster	I received an email inside Red Hat from a developer who was having real problems navigating through the tangled morass of PackageMaintainers in the wiki	23 Jul 15:26
stickster	So it would be good to visit those.	23 Jul 15:27
quaid	sorry! network problems but we're on now	23 Jul 15:27
stickster	I think the policy pages we want to stay away from.	23 Jul 15:27
quaid	hi friends	23 Jul 15:27
stickster	Hi quaid	23 Jul 15:27
stickster	It's just you, me, partly Sparks and partly ian_maybeafk	23 Jul 15:27
quaid	is Package* open enough ACLs?	23 Jul 15:27
quaid	or do we get added	23 Jul 15:27
quaid	ok, smooth	23 Jul 15:27
stickster	quaid: It's Packaging* I think which is locked down a bit	23 Jul 15:28
stickster	That's where the policy sits, and that's all pretty well written and complete AFAICT.	23 Jul 15:28
stickster	It's the pages that point in there which are a bit of a mess.	23 Jul 15:28
stickster	This page? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers	23 Jul 15:29
stickster	It's confusing.	23 Jul 15:29
quaid	so just that page	23 Jul 15:29
stickster	And it may not be the only one for developers of its kind	23 Jul 15:29
stickster	crap, clauses out of sequence.	23 Jul 15:29
stickster	And it may not be the only one of its kind for developers	23 Jul 15:29
* stickster notes that page contains transcludes/templates for each section		23 Jul 15:30
quaid		23 Jul 15:31
* quaid opens page now that greg is done shoulder surfing		23 Jul 15:31
stickster	How can we kick wiki gardening in the ass?	23 Jul 15:32
stickster	Get people to pitch in?	23 Jul 15:32
* stickster thinks we need an incentive.		23 Jul 15:32
quaid	hmm, incentives	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	easier?	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	greg had an idea earlier today ...	23 Jul 15:34
stickster	No, I mean like: prizes for wiki edits.	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	use the Special: page that tracks "hasn't been touched in N time"	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	and put a different, shaded/colored background	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	and maybe a watermark -- a pink page --	23 Jul 15:34
quaid	"if you see a pink page and think it shouldn't be active, then update it, or change it to red so that it needs fixing."	23 Jul 15:35
quaid	something visuual	23 Jul 15:35
quaid	and encourage people all over the place, help by hitting up these pages	23 Jul 15:35
stickster	I think "encourage people all over the place" has been shown at this point to be ineffective.	23 Jul 15:35
stickster	What if we were to offer a real bounty of some sort for this work?	23 Jul 15:36
stickster	How could we create and track such a thing, and reduce the chances of gaming the system through things like whitespace fiddling?	23 Jul 15:36
quaid	well	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	start with the usuals and grow?	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	that is	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	make sure we highlight people who are kicking ass	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	with auto tooling	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	maybe a banner that rotates?	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	then ...	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	1. recognition	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	2. ???	23 Jul 15:37
quaid	3. profit!	23 Jul 15:37
stickster	Hm	23 Jul 15:38
stickster	Well, I know it should be quite easy to grab the info.	23 Jul 15:39
quaid	right, there is something already but I forget	23 Jul 15:39
quaid	lmacken hack of somekined?	23 Jul 15:39
quaid	I forget	23 Jul 15:39
stickster	spevack just gave me the tipoff	23 Jul 15:40
stickster	git://fedorapeople.org/~lmacken/fedora-weekly-metrics	23 Jul 15:40
lmacken	oh yeah, I've been meaning to add more of those	23 Jul 15:40
lmacken	that repo only has a couple of basic wiki metrics	23 Jul 15:41
lmacken	but eventually i'd like to see it have bugzilla, cvs, bodhi, koji, etc	23 Jul 15:41
quaid	ah, cool	23 Jul 15:41
spevack	lmacken: i've done nothing to help you so far, either. my apologies	23 Jul 15:41
lmacken	spevack: it's cool... I've been engulfed in bodhi stuff recently.	23 Jul 15:42
stickster	lmacken: Don't talk to him. He needs to study.	23 Jul 15:42
stickster	:-D	23 Jul 15:42
lmacken	haha	23 Jul 15:42
spevack		23 Jul 15:42
* spevack is "studying" for the rhce		23 Jul 15:42
lmacken		23 Jul 15:42
* lmacken also started a class at boston college this week too		23 Jul 15:42
* stickster says, having just pm'd spevack several times in the last hour		23 Jul 15:42
stickster	lmacken: So we were talking about...	23 Jul 15:42
spevack		23 Jul 15:42
* spevack cannot bring himself to care about several topics that are likely to be on the test		23 Jul 15:42
stickster	tying this into an incentive somehow, maybe a banner that publicizes people's ass-kicking on the wiki itself	23 Jul 15:43
stickster	or elsewhere	23 Jul 15:43
spevack	current top 5:	23 Jul 15:44
lmacken	neat. I still would like to see us do that gentoo/suse/etc do in their Weekly news -- having a stats section at the bottom	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	susmit	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	pcalarco	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	mspevack	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	pfrields	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	nim	23 Jul 15:44
spevack	IN YOUR FACE, stickster	23 Jul 15:44
stickster	Bite me spevack	23 Jul 15:44
lmacken	s/that/what/	23 Jul 15:44
lmacken	haha	23 Jul 15:44
stickster	I'm gonna SO out-wiki you next week.	23 Jul 15:44
spevack		23 Jul 15:44
* spevack will make every dollar added to the fedora budget pages a separate commit		23 Jul 15:44
spevack	so, that's $300 for $FOO. +1 (commit) +1 (commit)	23 Jul 15:45
* stickster sends lmacken to ban spevack from stats		23 Jul 15:45
stickster	oops, s/sends/sends patch to/	23 Jul 15:45
lmacken	see, it's this kind of friendly coopetition that we are trying to create ;)	23 Jul 15:45
stickster	That was two commits to the IRC log, can I count that?	23 Jul 15:45
spevack		23 Jul 15:46
* spevack places a watch on all stickster's pages, and removes one of the spaces between each sentence he types every time he commits		23 Jul 15:46
stickster	D'OH!!!	23 Jul 15:46
Sparks	:)	23 Jul 15:46
spevack	stickster: you called down the thunder! now you've got it!	23 Jul 15:46
stickster	Two leaders walk in, only one come out.	23 Jul 15:46
spevack		23 Jul 15:47
* spevack recalls the time him and gdk did the giant sumo wrestling suit thing		23 Jul 15:47
stickster	lmacken: What's the bot account message mean?	23 Jul 15:47
spevack	i think i lost. but i think he cheated.	23 Jul 15:47
spevack		23 Jul 15:47
* spevack goes back to studying... sigh		23 Jul 15:47
lmacken	stickster: normal user accounts can only get at most 500 results from a given query... we need to run that script using a 'bot' account to get more	23 Jul 15:48
lmacken	so those stats are not exactly accurate ;)	23 Jul 15:48
stickster	right, it capped at 500.	23 Jul 15:49
stickster	quaid: So, what's the next action on this?	23 Jul 15:50
quaid		23 Jul 15:50
* quaid done saying howdy to bryan che		23 Jul 15:50
spevack	stickster: did i totally just troll an in-progress meeting?	23 Jul 15:50
stickster	spevack: You did, well done sir.	23 Jul 15:50
spevack	for like 5 minutes?	23 Jul 15:50
quaid	we need a technology owner	23 Jul 15:50
spevack		23 Jul 15:50
* spevack runs in shame		23 Jul 15:50
quaid	who can make sure we are gathering and publishing	23 Jul 15:51
quaid	lmacken: since you are doing this for other stuff	23 Jul 15:51
quaid	lmacken: do you want to prototype a full feed of stats like this from Docs?	23 Jul 15:51
quaid	starting with the wiki pull and push to	23 Jul 15:51
quaid	... FWN, some page somewhere (fp.org top page?), ...	23 Jul 15:51
quaid	where else?	23 Jul 15:51
spevack	stickster: serious question for you:	23 Jul 15:52
quaid	weekly post to fedorastats.wordpress.com to appear on the planet?	23 Jul 15:52
spevack	i was planning on including metrics as a beat in Fedor aWeekly News	23 Jul 15:52
spevack	but I thought it would be best to wait until we had more than jus twiki edits	23 Jul 15:52
lmacken	quaid: sure, I plan on helping to elaborate the metrics generation stuff.	23 Jul 15:52
spevack	which is why i haven't done it yet.	23 Jul 15:52
spevack	should i continue to hold off, or just do it?	23 Jul 15:52
lmacken	yeah, I think we should wait to have more stats from a few more sources	23 Jul 15:53
stickster	hmm	23 Jul 15:54
stickster	spevack: The only thing that makes me reticent is the fact that we keep showing up in the top 10!	23 Jul 15:54
stickster	spevack: OTOH, we can issue a challenge	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	Beat the FPLs and get a free ____	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	Uh	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	Maybe I should fill in that blank before someone else does.	23 Jul 15:55
spevack	:) i tend to agree with lmacken, which is why I've waited.	23 Jul 15:55
spevack	PONY	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	Porsche	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	spevack: All right, but the idea is solid	23 Jul 15:55
spevack	we totally need to buy a fedora contributor a pony	23 Jul 15:55
stickster	lmacken: Agreed on the stats	23 Jul 15:56
stickster	This is sort of a side note to the larger question. Aside from this effort...	23 Jul 15:56
stickster	quaid: What else can we do?	23 Jul 15:56
stickster	quaid: Is there a high-level plan for the wiki gardening?	23 Jul 15:56
stickster	High enough that people know where to start digging now?	23 Jul 15:57
stickster	But low enough that someone can grok it?	23 Jul 15:57
stickster	I find https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening	23 Jul 15:58
stickster	But after the first few subsections, it's not task-oriented enough from the new contributor standpoint.	23 Jul 15:58
stickster	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks	23 Jul 15:59
stickster	That's better!	23 Jul 15:59
stickster	But how to know how to categorize?	23 Jul 15:59
stickster	We are almost out of time here.	23 Jul 15:59
stickster	quaid: Can you take an item to make the Gardening pages clearer from the new-guy perspective?	23 Jul 16:00
stickster	Simple questions, simple answers	23 Jul 16:00
stickster	I'm working on a few other Docs things at present :-)	23 Jul 16:00
stickster	OK, we need to end this meeting I think	23 Jul 16:01
AndreasR	-stickster: no prob.. go on it seems to be funny	23 Jul 16:02
AndreasR	-without the pony thing	23 Jul 16:02
spevack	AndreasR: do you want a pony?	23 Jul 16:02
stickster	haha	23 Jul 16:02
stickster	And with that...	23 Jul 16:03
stickster	</meeting>	23 Jul 16:03

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