BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Mar-03

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-03-03

Attendees

• poelcat
• John5342
• JStizzle
• iarlyy
• imbrius
• mprice
• beland
• mcepl
• adamw
• tk009

Meeting Summary & Action Items

It was great to see a lot of new BugZappers memebers at the meeting today. Thank you for taking the time to attend.

• Greasemonkey Script - The All-in-One script isn't ready for deployment. Until then, we will continue to use the BugZappers "triage buttons" greasemonkey script found here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools, and the BugZappers signature script found here: http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/scripts/greasemonkey/add_bugzappers_signature.user.js

You can test the signature script by posting a comment to this bug here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=485962

• Wiki Updating - The updating of the BugZappers wiki space will begin with the BugZappers front page and a page merging the ActiveTriagers and Components pages.

Here are two drafts for review of the modified front page. Please feel free to comment on or edit either.

1. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers
2. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tk009/bugZappers

beland will be creating a draft page merging the information from the ActiveTriagers and components pages. Once complete he will email the link to the mailing-list for review.

• (SOP) Standard Operating Procedures - General discussion began on creation of SOP's for the BugZappers, and that they should be created concurrently with the wiki update. Then focused on SOP for joining/new members of the BugZappers. Specifically the "introduction e-mail". No decission was reached during the meeting regarding procedure.

Action Items

• Unassigned - Create a draft of SOP for new BugZappers members. - Document requirements have yet to be defined.

• Unassigned - Create a draft for a greasemonkey wiki page - This would be to merge all existing and scattered BugZappers greasemoneky information in to one page.

• Beland - Create a draft wiki page merging the information from ActiveTriagers page here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers and Components page here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/components.

• Tk009 - Create new or edit the existing BugWorkFlow.png to correct conflicting/confusing information regarding the flow from the "NEEDINFO" flag.

IRC Transcript

poelcat	who do you we have today?	07:01
* John5342 is here		07:01
JStizzle	me	07:01
iarlyy	iarlyy, is here	07:02
* imbrius is here		07:02
* poelcat sees lots of new people on fedora-test-list which is great!		07:02
* mprice is here		07:02
poelcat	welcome JStizzle iarlyy imbrius mprice John5342 !	07:02
John5342	poelcat: *new* fedora-test-list?	07:02
poelcat	adamw: jds2001 mcepl and any of the other regulars.. ping	07:03
beland	bonjour	07:03
* mcepl is here		07:03
poelcat	John5342: people introducing themselves	07:03
John5342	poelcat: sorry. misread	07:03
adamw	morning	07:03
JStizzle	good morning	07:03
mcepl	adamw: afternoon ;-)	07:04
poelcat	adamw: good (early) morning!	07:04
JStizzle	I don't know what you all are talking about. It's 10:04am. :)	07:04
adamw	this could go on alllll day :)	07:04
imbrius	Yayy, timezones!	07:04
mcepl	you mean 16:04, right?	07:04
* poelcat looks for the agenda		07:05
* mcepl agrees		07:05
imbrius	we wouldn't have this problem if the planet wasn't this odd round shape...	07:05
JStizzle	we would have a host of other problems if it wasn't though	07:05
imbrius	heh - fix one bug, cause a million	07:06
adamw	poelcat: what, timezone discussion isn't on the agenda?	07:06
poelcat	adamw: we'll hold a special meeting for it next week ;-)	07:06
JStizzle	sweet	07:06
poelcat	okay... sorry for the slow startup	07:06
poelcat	first off, welcome to all the new folks	07:06
* JStizzle tries to conjure up a good ntp joke and fails		07:06
poelcat	great to have you have you	07:07
mcepl	YAYY!!!! NEW FOLKS!!!! YAY!!!	07:07
poelcat	we'll run through a few business items and then at the end of the meeting move over to #fedora-bugzappers	07:07
poelcat	where we'll continue with some live triaging, help, etc.	07:07
poelcat	adamw: did I get that right?	07:07
poelcat	first two topics are from comphappy	07:08
adamw	poelcat: yes indeed	07:08
poelcat	greasmonkey and triage stats... from a quick glance at the list this AM he is still working on things	07:08
mcepl	co	07:08
mcepl	sorry	07:08
poelcat	until he gets the plugin thing working where are we pointing people at to get the bugzappers GM script?	07:09
poelcat	anyone?	07:10
mcepl	poelcat: if the question was on me, no clue ... I was working on merging all scripts into one, but not done yet	07:10
poelcat	it would be good if we could give it out at our triage day :)	07:10
adamw	someone said they'd work on that last week didn't they?	07:10
* adamw consults minutes		07:11
poelcat	comphappy was working on it	07:11
poelcat	he couldn't come today	07:11
adamw	ah	07:11
mcepl	adamw: comphappy is the official maintainer of the script which I write ... you know those Red Hat guys, they have to have upstream always ;-)	07:11
adamw	hehe	07:11
iarlyy	he have a git repository, i don't remember the link	07:11
poelcat	okay we'll have to track that down later	07:12
adamw	for the triage day i can just throw up the versions of both scripts i have onto my own site if nothing else.	07:13
John5342	i have the link to the script i was asked to try last week adding signatures if that helps	07:13
mcepl	adamw, poelcat: https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey ???	07:13
poelcat	we should probably have one focused wiki page about greasemonkey script... how to get it configure it, etc.	07:13
poelcat	there we go!	07:14
poelcat	thanks adamw	07:14
mcepl	but that looks kind of busted	07:14
iarlyy	a center place for GM will be good.	07:14
mcepl	I always thought that it is that fedorahosted.org repo?	07:15
mcepl	but I don't use it myself, so not sure	07:15
poelcat	also described here w/ a link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools	07:15
poelcat	which is a lead in to our next topic... wiki pages :-/	07:16
* poelcat not sure where to start :)		07:16
poelcat	we all agree the wiki pages need to be better.. the part we probably don't all agree on yet is how to get them to a better place	07:17
adamw	how about beland tells us his Grand Plans	07:17
adamw	and we all call him Napoleon	07:17
adamw	=)	07:17
mcepl	and let him do it ... ;-)	07:17
beland	Well, I laid out all of the decision points in my last long email...I can recap.	07:17
poelcat	beland: go for it!	07:17
beland	First, for approval: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Joining/tmp	07:18
* poelcat wonders if we should set aside a day, like for the today's triage day, but to focus on fixing up the wiki		07:18
poelcat	beland: can you start with your overall vision of how things should be layed out ?	07:19
beland	which is a merge of BugZappers/HelpWanted with BugZappers/Joining	07:19
adamw	poelcat: i'm not sure it would benefit from that format. to be honest, i think this is probably best done via the list	07:20
beland	If you mean my front page draft, that's at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers	07:20
adamw	so people have time to hash out, evaluate and discuss drafts	07:20
poelcat	adamw: true	07:20
adamw	i suspect if we try and handle it in the meeting it'll be a huge time sink and not get anything much done	07:21
adamw	i guess what we should look at in the meeting is, does anyone have a big fundamental objection to the objective of re-organizing and re-designing the wiki, or some kind of guiding principle they'd like to use, or anything	07:21
adamw	something big but shallow that we can usefully discuss / agree on in a ten-minute time frame	07:21
* poelcat thankful adamw is thinking clearly today :)		07:22
beland	It should be better than it is now. 8)	07:22
poelcat	beland: +1	07:22
adamw	what I really want to have is a very clear flow from the front page which allows a new person to come along and do everything they need to do to start zapping bugs	07:23
adamw	there's a lot of other stuff we can usefully have in the wiki, but that's the bit i really want to have there	07:23
imbrius	Well, for starters, I didn't see anything about the GM script there. I didn't know about it until just now.	07:23
adamw	right, that would be part of the flow	07:23
beland	So we have 2 drafts of the front page; is either going in a good direction?	07:23
adamw	list discussion! :)	07:24
beland	Is GreaseMonkey ready for people to use?	07:24
adamw	beland: the greasemonkey scripts we have, yes	07:24
beland	Where are they?	07:24
JStizzle	https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey	07:24
beland	Oh, dear.	07:24
beland	That's not very user-friendly.	07:24
adamw	the main one is, as mentioned above, discussed at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools	07:25
poelcat	my overall concern is that was the approach we took 1 year ago.. we tried to be careful and be respectful of stuff people had created in the past and merge it into other places... i'd rather see us create some new pages the right way, then move lots of stuff around and merge one thing into another	07:25
adamw	the new one for signatures isn't yet but would obviously be added there	07:25
poelcat	so starting from a new front page is probably a good place to start	07:25
poelcat	should that be our first goal?	07:25
beland	Ah, there you go, that's better.	07:25
adamw	yeah. that's how we did it for the main QA space and it worked quite well.	07:25
poelcat	or should our first goal be a newbie "getting started guide" ?	07:25
adamw	poelcat: front page first is fine. the newbie-getting-started thing is not a single page, it's a flow of pages going from the front page	07:26
adamw	so the front page needs to be right	07:26
tk009	gareed	07:26
beland	Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've already rewritten the front page and I'm working on the how-to...	07:26
tk009	agreed*	07:26
adamw	beland: everyone else is a bit behind =)	07:26
beland	Tell me about it.	07:26
poelcat	beland: link?	07:26
adamw	ok, so for the list: let's agree on a front page draft and then go from there.	07:26
poelcat	so by next meeting let's discuss beland's draft of the front page on the list	07:27
beland	As posted above and in my e-mail: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers	07:27
beland	There's also User:Tk009/bugzappers	07:27
poelcat	are there any other versions that should be considered?	07:28
* poelcat will add those two to the recap		07:28
beland	Just those two, for the front page. There were literally 10 other questions enumerated in my e-mail which need discussion.	07:29
poelcat	beland: yes, this process will take time :)	07:29
beland	Though the major knotty one we were supposed to discuss today was how to track component ownership	07:29
beland	Or at least who is working on which.	07:29
poelcat	okay let's move onto tracking component ownership	07:30
beland	The big question being, I think, how to indicate whether or not a given component needs/wants additional help?	07:30
imbrius	beland: other than asking in #fedora-bugzappers	07:31
imbrius	beland: which is how I got that info	07:31
beland	Primarily on the wiki.	07:31
imbrius	beland: and which components don't want triage - like anaconda	07:31
beland	I think it would be lovely if new BugZappers didn't ever have to use IRC; they could get everything they needed to know just by reading the wiki.	07:32
poelcat	i think we have two issues here...	07:32
poelcat	1) we have a list of what we considered "important components" for F11	07:32
poelcat	2) we have a list of ActiveTriagers	07:32
poelcat	3) we don't really have a list of what beland is pointing to	07:33
poelcat	we probably need to fix all three :)	07:33
iarlyy	activetriagers and your components	07:33
poelcat	the problem i see is trying to make each of these wiki pages do too many things	07:33
poelcat	which i think is definitely happening with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Components	07:34
poelcat	which got a redirect from Goals	07:34
beland	Hmm, I was thinking it would be clearer if there were only one table of components, which also listed active contributors and a flag about whether or not more help was wanted.	07:34
mcepl	well, I think we need to merge ActiveTriagers and Components web pages into one. Then beland's list would just happen.	07:34
imbrius	I second beland's idea.	07:35
adamw	so does mcepl. :)	07:35
mcepl	yeah	07:35
adamw	sounds fine to me	07:35
adamw	i'm worried about it getting cruft-y, as the current 'active triagers' list has, but that's sort of unavoidable.	07:35
John5342	without trying to add more work to people what about making components etc part of triage stats	07:35
beland	Hopefully it will be easier to maintain one table than several.	07:35
poelcat	adamw: we clear it out for each release ?	07:35
mcepl	... after each release when we plan what to do for the next one	07:36
mcepl	?	07:36
poelcat	beland: can you create a new draft in your namespace and send it to the list?	07:36
adamw	poelcat: that'd probably work, yeah.	07:36
beland	Sure.	07:36
poelcat	adamw: last part of "background" https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers	07:37
poelcat	beland: okay, thanks	07:37
poelcat	so we are tackling two wiki tasks first, then others will follow	07:37
poelcat	1) front page	07:38
poelcat	2) components/who is triaging what	07:38
poelcat	everyone agree?	07:38
* imbrius agrees		07:38
iarlyy	+1	07:38
beland	::general applause::	07:38
poelcat	beland: you proposed a lot of a great stuff and we'll eventually get to all of it, just want to make sure we can consume it in small pieces	07:38
poelcat	so everyone can stay invovled :)	07:39
poelcat	next item in the agenda was about "Bug Work Flow"	07:40
poelcat	does anyone know what the issues or concerns are here?	07:40
beland	Sure, makes my job easier...I'll clean my house while everyone catches up. 8)	07:40
* yunustj thinks that the component list will be sorted by number of bugs		07:40
tk009	to much sugar beland ? =P	07:41
beland	Apparently some of the info on the bug workflow page is incorrect...	07:41
* poelcat notes the bug counts should be rawhide bugs only		07:41
beland	Having to do with NEEDINFO and flags	07:41
imbrius	poelcat: I second that - many of the nautilus bugs are for f9	07:41
tk009	one of the things pointed out to me as that needinfo points back to new in the flow.prg	07:41
poelcat	ahhh, that is from when NEEDINFO was a bug state	07:42
tk009	that was confusing dash123	07:42
imbrius	poelcat: YEAH - that confused me too!	07:42
adamw	so, agenda: someone fix the picture? :)	07:42
poelcat	anyone want to take a shot at fixing the picture?	07:42
tk009	me and art hate each other =)	07:42
tk009	if no one speaks up tho	07:43
adamw	tk009: congratulations! :)	07:44
tk009	lol	07:44
tk009	kk	07:44
poelcat	we also had an agenda itema about creating som BugZappers SOPs	07:44
poelcat	i wonder if it makes sense to wait on that	07:45
poelcat	until we get the wiki better sorted out?	07:45
poelcat	thoughts? comments?	07:45
beland	Are you talking about things currently filed under Housekeeping?	07:45
poelcat	i'd consider that one of the SOPs	07:45
adamw	he's going on the Infrastructure group model, i think	07:45
John5342	poelcat: dont think it matters when its done since whatever we write can be incorporated into present and/or future version of the wiki	07:46
adamw	basically they write out standard procedures for...more or less everything	07:46
poelcat	adamw: yes, which i think rocks	07:46
imbrius	adamw, poelcat: I totally agree	07:46
adamw	i like the idea, i just hope we wouldn't get buried in writing sops and not have time to do any actual triage :)	07:46
poelcat	because then they don't have to spend a week like us wondering how "fedorabugs" works :)	07:46
adamw	but it would definitely be sane for things like accepting new members	07:46
poelcat	John5342: excellent point	07:47
imbrius	(aside: what keeps making all those accound sign on/off every few minutes?)	07:47
imbrius	accounts*	07:47
poelcat	so it sounds like away here is "write SOPs" in your own namespace, we'll pull them in when the time is right	07:47
beland	First step would be just listing which "things" need to be documented.	07:47
poelcat	beland: the only one that comes to mind is getting 'fedorabugs'	07:48
adamw	imbrius: net splits. they don't usually happen so often, though.	07:48
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 150 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 149 normal]		07:49
adamw	poelcat: ok, so you write a SOP and we'll approve it :) i think it should basically just be "check the applicant sent a self-introduction mail to the list and it wasn't written in blood or crayon, if so, approve"...	07:49
beland	A list of size one, then.	07:49
adamw	beland: good size to start with	07:49
beland	And don't make them sign the CLA.	07:50
poelcat	related to 'fedorabugs'... what did folks think of stickster's suggestion of an introduction first?	07:50
JStizzle	how do you know my email wasn't written in blood?	07:50
beland	I actually hate introductions.	07:50
tk009	I do as well	07:50
imbrius	beland: as do I	07:50
adamw	hmm, discord! ok, why?	07:50
adamw	JStizzle: i had it analyzed by the CSI guys. they can do that.	07:50
poelcat	beland: imbrius so what do i do when i see a queue of 50 people wanting fedorabugs?	07:50
JStizzle	you guys hate receiving them, or writing them?	07:50
tk009	if you want to know me talk to me, anti social I am working on it	07:50
imbrius	poelcat: I understand their purpose	07:51
adamw	tk009: how do we talk to new people if we don't know they exist?	07:51
* stickster points out that we do need a method of discriminating between bots and people since we're giving power to do things like close or reassign bugs.		07:51
imbrius	I don't object to their use	07:51
tk009	that was just for me =)	07:51
tk009	and as you have seen I let it been known I am around =P	07:51
beland	1.) I don't particularly want to share personal details to be recorded on the Internet for all time, and 2.) I'd rather people judge me by my contributions and not my biography.	07:51
stickster	The barrier should be as low as possible, and no lower	07:51
adamw	tk009: no-one gets a notification when someone signs up for the mailing list. in the current situation, no-one but the fedorabugs group admins actually know when someone's trying to 'become' a bugzapper	07:51
imbrius	It just seems a little "first day of class" - go around the room and introduce yourself	07:51
JStizzle	the point is moot if you're an existing member is it not	07:52
poelcat	JStizzle: yes	07:52
adamw	JStizzle: yes, but if a significant number of existing members wouldn't have liked the idea of sending an introductory email, we can assume it's possible a significant number of potential new members might not either	07:52
poelcat	i'm just looking for some way to not spend my whole day giving 'fedorabugs' to people that aren't going to use it	07:52
beland	If you want a simply bot test, you can either use a captcha or send them a personal email.	07:52
JStizzle	then don't call it an 'introduction', call it a 'unique character string'	07:53
stickster	beland: Does that mean you're volunteering to do that work?	07:53
adamw	beland: sending a personal email each time gets old fast, plus there's about six group admins, so we'd somehow have to co-ordinate who was mailing who.	07:53
stickster	adamw: True also	07:53
mcepl	poelcat: how many of them you have? really? if there is a problem, you can hand it to me ...	07:53
adamw	mcepl: we had about ten applicants this week. three more this morning.	07:53
tk009	wow	07:54
beland	Is someone doing publicity all of a sudden? 8)	07:54
mcepl	and is there a problem? ten a week?	07:54
* stickster notes that Docs team has been using the self-introduction for years and had few problems with people not wanting to do them, yet wanting to be involved.		07:54
poelcat	yes, which is what i was trying to say in my mail to the list.. lots of signups, but where do they go? :)	07:54
beland	Putting a captcha in the loop wouldn't require a lot of operational work.	07:54
poelcat	~1300 people in fedorabugs	07:54
JStizzle	how about a very short personal statement that doesn't actually contain any personal information to distinguish you from bots?	07:54
* poelcat thinks the bot issue is not the real issue		07:55
adamw	stickster: how do you know people aren't just saying "hmm, don't want to send an introduction email, i'll just not join in then" and going away?	07:55
* mcepl thinks bot issue could become a real issue in future		07:55
adamw	anyhoo, i'm with poelcat. i think the point here is to try and get new people involved right away	07:55
adamw	they post to the list, people say hi, they feel involved	07:55
beland	Trying to exclude people who aren't particularly active means that casual triagers will be discouraged.	07:55
beland	If you want to keep the barrier to entry low, approval should be fairly automatic.	07:56
poelcat	i want there to be a small level of seriousness to getting 'fedorabugs' and then being encouraged to use it	07:56
John5342	the kind of people who seriously want to help are probably also the kind of people who may not like introducing themselves but will anyway in order to help	07:56
adamw	as it is, it's probably quite easy to think 'hmm, this might be fun', join the group, miss the first meeting, then just sort of fade away...	07:56
stickster	adamw: True, it's sort of a self-selecting sample.	07:56
adamw	what do our newcomers think on this issue? those who are here?	07:56
poelcat	that's the part i think we should somehow fix	07:56
beland	There is something of a tradeoff between getting people to commit to something in order to encourage them to put time into it, and scaring people away because commitment is required.	07:57
adamw	do you guys like the self-introduction idea or no?	07:57
JStizzle	adamw: I personally like the idea of an introduction for several obvious reasons.	07:57
JStizzle	I want to see what strengths new members bring to the team	07:57
poelcat	beland: well put	07:57
JStizzle	full disclosure: I am very social and outgoing.	07:58
imbrius	I concede the point that it is very useful to have introductions.	07:58
* poelcat sees we have ~1 minute left		07:59
* stickster trying to imagine an effective triager who doesn't introduce himself to the team somehow.		07:59
beland	Well, I never did.	07:59
imbrius	Yeah	07:59
stickster	beland: You must have done so here in IRC, right?	07:59
iarlyy	a simple introduction doesn't mean your bank password, 'Hi i'm iarly, from brazil, work with linux since 1000 years ago, and want help with bugtriage', what the problem	07:59
imbrius	stickster: I agree	07:59
tk009	I never did either	07:59
beland	No.	07:59
JStizzle	what about a choice: introduce to the list or to #fedora-bugzappers?	07:59
poelcat	beland: and some of us wondered "who is this guy changing all the wiki pages?" :) :)	07:59
adamw	beland: would you be OK if the introduction didn't need to include any particular personal information?	07:59
beland	And that's the way it should be. 8)	08:00
adamw	we don't NEED to know people's real names or where the live or anything	08:00
adamw	that's not the point of the list	08:00
adamw	er, the mail	08:00
beland	Then what *is* the point?	08:00
adamw	it's just to a) prove you're a real person willing to commit to at least sending a message to a mailing list and b) sucker the newbie into being involved	08:00
JStizzle	to make sure it's not a computer machine :)	08:00
imbrius	Thanks for the meeting, but I have a job interview - I'll see everyone later on.	08:00
beland	A captcha can differentiate between people and bots easily enough.	08:00
stickster	beland: It's not part of FAS right now. So relying on a nonexistent technical feature to do this means someone has to commit to creating or integrating it.	08:01
poelcat	let's move this discussion to fedora-test-list.. i'll start a new thread	08:01
adamw	beland: actually, captchas are pretty often cracked these days. and, seea bove	08:01
tk009	continue in the bugzappers?	08:01
beland	I dunno, I'm just coming in from the Wikipedia culture, where anonymous contributions are highly welcome and encouraged, and people are very worried about squashing them.	08:01
poelcat	tk009: yes	08:01
JStizzle	tk009: indeed	08:01
poelcat	we're at the end of our slot	08:01
tk009	sorry kde team =)	08:02
poelcat	take it away rdieter	08:02
poelcat	everyone come on over to #fedora-bugzappers for some triaging good times!	08:02
poelcat	<EOM>	08:02

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