BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Mar-17

Attendees

• tk009
• jds2001
• iarlyy
• beland
• poelcat (meeting lead)
• adamw
• SMParrish
• comphappy

Previous Meeting and Mailing list Follow-up

• Introduction Email SOP - After discussion, it was felt there might be some confusion with the use of "'fedorabugs' group" in the language. A second draft will be created with changes to the language removing "'fedorabugs' group" and any confusion it might cause new members. A new draft will be submitted for review on the mailing list once the status of JDS2001's proposed FAS patch is known.

• Wiki Front Page - The front page draft submitted by adamw was reviewed and approved for immediate implementation. Minor adjustments to the page will be made when required to align with supporting pages.

• Wiki Components_and_Triagers page - here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Components_and_Triagers - This page was also reviewed and approved, with the provision that when the metrics become operational, statistical information will be removed from the page.

• Meeting Day and Time - There were insufficient numbers at the meeting to make a decision on changing the meeting schedule. It was decided to move the discussion to the list to finalize the change (if any) to be made. If you have not done so this is your last chance to add your preference to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugzappers_meeting_matrix.

• Bug Work Flow png - No resolution, awaiting further information from John5342.

Added Agenda Item

• Triage Metrics - The metrics are awaiting bug fixes to other required packages, and not yet operational. The up-to-date Metrics code will be pushed to the triage git repository later today.

Follow-up Actions

• FAS Patch - JDS2001 will submit a patch to infrastructure, so membership in the BugZappers automatically adds 'fedorabugs' group permissions.

• Introduction Email SOP Draft - TK009 will create a second draft incorporating the changes specified in the meeting.

• Supporting wiki pages - beland and adamw will work on consolidating, revising and organizing the supporting pages within the BugZappers namespace.

• Bug Work Flow png - Need information from John5342 on the status.

• Triage Metrics Code - Comphappy will upload the up-to-date metrics code to the triage git repository.

IRC Transcript

---poelcat has changed the topic to: Bug Triage Meeting		Mar 17 11:00
poelcat	hello everyone	Mar 17 11:00
tk009	hello =)	Mar 17 11:00
iarlyy	hello =)	Mar 17 11:01
poelcat	tk009 iarlyy hi	Mar 17 11:01
jds2001	yo	Mar 17 11:01
poelcat	jds2001: hi	Mar 17 11:01
iarlyy	jds2001: hi man	Mar 17 11:01
SMParrish	hi all	Mar 17 11:02
tk009	hello SM	Mar 17 11:02
poelcat	tk009: i saw somewhere a suggestion of reorganizing the agenda so comphappy could give some updates	Mar 17 11:03
tk009	yes	Mar 17 11:03
poelcat	but don't see him here	Mar 17 11:03
jds2001	he's around	Mar 17 11:03
tk009	he went afk a min, he will be right back	Mar 17 11:03
jds2001	feverishly working on some scripts	Mar 17 11:03
jds2001	with toshio	Mar 17 11:03
poelcat	how about we start w/ something else then... SOP for new triagers	Mar 17 11:04
tk009	kk	Mar 17 11:04
poelcat	did everyone get a chance to read it on the list?	Mar 17 11:04
poelcat	thoughts? feedback?	Mar 17 11:04
poelcat	i like it	Mar 17 11:04
comphappy	sorry what do we like?	Mar 17 11:04
tk009	I do as well =P (biased)	Mar 17 11:04
tk009	did everyone get to read it?	Mar 17 11:05
tk009	no one is talking	Mar 17 11:05
jds2001	yeah, i just read it	Mar 17 11:05
iarlyy	I read but don't understand right..	Mar 17 11:05
*jds2001 is forever behind on f-test :)\		Mar 17 11:05
comphappy	can I get a link/ref to what we are talking about	Mar 17 11:05
tk009	what is confusing iarlyy	Mar 17 11:05
tk009	we are discussing the SOP draft I mailed out	Mar 17 11:06
jds2001	https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-March/msg00918.html	Mar 17 11:06
tk009	thanks jds	Mar 17 11:06
iarlyy	let me see again...	Mar 17 11:06
comphappy	oh yes I did like that	Mar 17 11:07
tk009	I jsut have questions about how it will be placed on the wiki, not sure where it should go	Mar 17 11:08
poelcat	do we need to distinguish between "joinin bug triage" and "being added to 'fedorabugs'" ?	Mar 17 11:08
poelcat	which are different things... or am i being to fine graned?	Mar 17 11:08
poelcat	grained	Mar 17 11:08
jds2001	poelcat: what's the difference? packagers automatically get it, so there's no separate application there.	Mar 17 11:08
iarlyy	my question is about what is sent in e-mail to new members... because many peoples won't share personal information in mailing, is it already clear?	Mar 17 11:08
comphappy	poelcat: we kind of discussed this a little bit ago in bugzappers channel	Mar 17 11:08
poelcat	comphappy: btw how much time before you have to leave?	Mar 17 11:09
comphappy	6min	Mar 17 11:09
jds2001	poelcat: more if "if you explicitly apply for fedorabugs, this is what you must do"	Mar 17 11:09
poelcat	let's switch to comphappy's topics while he's here	Mar 17 11:09
poelcat	sorry for the abrupt subject change	Mar 17 11:09
comphappy	metrics we talked about, I am fighting a bug in curl right now	Mar 17 11:10
poelcat	comphappy: greasemonkey... i think we're all squared away for now... the main link is always on the tools page, correct?	Mar 17 11:10
comphappy	yes and file requests on trac	Mar 17 11:10
comphappy	for features/fixes	Mar 17 11:10
poelcat	comphappy: what i'm not clear on is the overall plan for metrics	Mar 17 11:10
poelcat	i sent some detailed feedback in february, but didn't see or hear anything	Mar 17 11:10
iarlyy	where is hosted the scripts?	Mar 17 11:10
comphappy	the very old ones are in the git repo	Mar 17 11:11
comphappy	I was up all night trying to get it done for the meeting today, but that just did not happen	Mar 17 11:11
comphappy	but they are very close	Mar 17 11:11
comphappy	people got emails about a new group last night	Mar 17 11:11
poelcat	comphappy: excellent! is there an official "go live" date for the metrics site?	Mar 17 11:12
comphappy	that will control who is in the triagers section of the metrics	Mar 17 11:12
iarlyy	triagers?	Mar 17 11:12
*poelcat wonders if we could combine 'triagers' and 'fedorabugs'		Mar 17 11:12
poelcat	and just use triagers?	Mar 17 11:12
jds2001	poelcat: bag	Mar 17 11:12
jds2001	nah	Mar 17 11:12
jds2001	i cant type	Mar 17 11:12
poelcat	more self-explanatory?	Mar 17 11:12
poelcat	one group to join?	Mar 17 11:12
jds2001	fedorabugs simply controls access to bugzilla.	Mar 17 11:12
comphappy	yes so that pulls in redhat	Mar 17 11:13
jds2001	poelcat: oh, that could be done in FAS I guess.	Mar 17 11:13
poelcat	right... if you join triage you automatically get fedorabugs	Mar 17 11:13
*jds2001 could submit a simple FAS patch tonight.		Mar 17 11:13
comphappy	my idea was that when that email does out, then someone adds you to the triagers group	Mar 17 11:13
poelcat	comphappy: do you need anything else from us before you vanish?	Mar 17 11:13
iarlyy	triagers give me same rights than fedorabugs	Mar 17 11:13
jds2001	iarlyy: right now triagers give you no rights, it's just a tracking group.	Mar 17 11:14
comphappy	but you can look at the #fedora-bugzappers history from this morning for more info	Mar 17 11:14
poelcat	will do	Mar 17 11:14
poelcat	thanks for all your work on this!	Mar 17 11:14
tk009	yes thank you comp	Mar 17 11:14
iarlyy	i was unplugged :(	Mar 17 11:14
comphappy	but I have to run. I will be on tomorrow morning on the hours I listed in the last email to talk about it.	Mar 17 11:14
comphappy	it being the metrics	Mar 17 11:15
poelcat	comphappy: okay	Mar 17 11:15
poelcat	anything else on metrics from others?	Mar 17 11:15
tk009	no me	Mar 17 11:16
iarlyy	nop	Mar 17 11:16
poelcat	okay back to the SOP	Mar 17 11:16
tk009	s owe are looking to replace fedorabugs with triagers?	Mar 17 11:17
tk009	or am I confused	Mar 17 11:18
poelcat	"rocedure necessary for induction in the "fedorabugs" group as a member of the BugZappers (Fedora Triage Team)."	Mar 17 11:18
jds2001	no, we're looking for one to grant membership in the other automatically	Mar 17 11:18
jds2001	there are two classes of folks that need fedorabugs access: triagers and packagers.	Mar 17 11:19
jds2001	packager already automatically grants fedorabugs, so we were just talking about extending that behavior to triagers.	Mar 17 11:19
poelcat	my concern is that "fedorabugs group" isn't going to make any sense to a newbie	Mar 17 11:19
tk009	agree	Mar 17 11:19
poelcat	and maybe they don't even need to know about it if we link it behind the scenes with "triager"	Mar 17 11:20
tk009	I didn't even know about it till now	Mar 17 11:20
jds2001	tk009: you're a member :)	Mar 17 11:20
jds2001	.fasinfo tk009	Mar 17 11:20
zodbot	jds2001: User: tk009, Name: None, email: john.brown009@gmail.com, Creation: 2008-10-01, IRC Nick: tk009, Timezone: None, Locale: None, Extension: 5115833, GPG key ID: None	Mar 17 11:20
zodbot	jds2001: Approved Groups: cla_done fedorabugs cla_fedora triagers	Mar 17 11:20
zodbot	jds2001: Unapproved Groups: None	Mar 17 11:20
poelcat	so then we just tell people that if they want to be able to triage bugs in bugzilla they need to send an email to join the triage team	Mar 17 11:21
poelcat	and request the triage group in FAS	Mar 17 11:21
jds2001	yep, assuming that infra accepts my FAS patch :)	Mar 17 11:21
jds2001	that is unfortunately hardcoded in FAS, so not very scalable.	Mar 17 11:22
iarlyy	i think that steps to become a bugzappers isn't clear for me - 1 - fas, 2 - apply to grupos ( what? ), 3 - email, is it?	Mar 17 11:22
poelcat	do we want to approve the SOP for now?	Mar 17 11:22
tk009	I ma thinking no	Mar 17 11:22
iarlyy	***groups	Mar 17 11:22
poelcat	tk009: okay, what is next step?	Mar 17 11:22
*poelcat is trying to keep the agenda moving		Mar 17 11:23
tk009	make the wording clear	Mar 17 11:23
tk009	and make sure that patch gets in	Mar 17 11:23
tk009	we can keep it going on the list	Mar 17 11:23
poelcat	tk009: sounds good	Mar 17 11:23
poelcat	next topic https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Draft_Bugzappers	Mar 17 11:23
poelcat	thanks to beland tk009 and adamw working on this and bringing us this far	Mar 17 11:24
poelcat	what do we need to discus before moving forward with it?	Mar 17 11:24
beland	The redlinks.	Mar 17 11:24
beland	I suggest BugZappers/How to Triage for the checklist one.	Mar 17 11:25
beland	and BugsAndFeatureRequests for the Bugzilla Primer one.	Mar 17 11:25
jds2001	camel-cased stuff in MW is utter fail.	Mar 17 11:25
beland	I just sent email with a link to a draft to replace the How to Triage page, but that can be finished asynchronously.	Mar 17 11:25
jds2001	Let's rename stuff on the way.	Mar 17 11:26
poelcat	right now we just want to talk about the front page itself :)	Mar 17 11:26
jds2001	:)	Mar 17 11:26
poelcat	are we happy with the links and sections that are there?	Mar 17 11:26
*poelcat wonders about adding an SOP section and putting the new SOP and housekeeping stuff under it		Mar 17 11:26
beland	Yes, except for the broken ones I mentioned.	Mar 17 11:26
tk009	hello adamw =)	Mar 17 11:27
poelcat	beland: broken is okay :)	Mar 17 11:27
adamw	i'm not really here	Mar 17 11:27
adamw	just wanted it on scrollback	Mar 17 11:27
tk009	=)	Mar 17 11:27
beland	I don't think so; the current front page has links to that content, and we don't want to lose that.	Mar 17 11:27
tk009	we wont lose it	Mar 17 11:28
*poelcat thinks we want a "google start page" vs. yahoo		Mar 17 11:28
poelcat	but maybe there are different preferences	Mar 17 11:28
tk009	less is better	Mar 17 11:28
poelcat	or at least something between google and yahoo :)	Mar 17 11:28
tk009	I've felt that way all along	Mar 17 11:29
beland	I just fixed the red links. Look good?	Mar 17 11:29
poelcat	the things in tools and procedures could be could be collapsed to two links	Mar 17 11:30
tk009	are primer and how to triage on the same thing?	Mar 17 11:30
tk009	err not the same thing?/	Mar 17 11:30
beland	Click on them?	Mar 17 11:30
tk009	no I mean jsut from the titles	Mar 17 11:30
iarlyy	beland: is ok	Mar 17 11:31
tk009	shouldn't they be the sae thing is maybe what I am saying	Mar 17 11:31
beland	If you have alternative titles, I have no objection to implementing them.	Mar 17 11:31
tk009	no, I see one link to many is what I am saying	Mar 17 11:31
poelcat	we already have 8 links under tools and procedures... if this is the front page for our group... how much longer would we be willing to let this list grow to?	Mar 17 11:32
*poelcat thinks it is too long already		Mar 17 11:32
beland	One page is targeted at all Bugzilla users, the other is targeted at triagers.	Mar 17 11:32
*jds2001 agrees with poelcat		Mar 17 11:32
beland	Well, one of the complaints that triggered the redesign was that there were too many pages and too much link clicking necessary.	Mar 17 11:33
adamw	alright, i'm back	Mar 17 11:33
adamw	poelcat: the "tools and procedures" link in my draft was always temporary	Mar 17 11:33
iarlyy	finding bugs and duplicate bugs links, should be same page... or just one linkk.	Mar 17 11:33
adamw	the section should be there and link to certain important pages	Mar 17 11:33
adamw	but the content of it at present isn't final. it can't be revised until we've reorganized the important pages it links to, though	Mar 17 11:34
poelcat	adamw: oh, i thought it was a final draft we were ready to approve :)	Mar 17 11:34
beland	Well, I say, this is still an improvement over the current front page; let's push it live and continue working on improving it.	Mar 17 11:34
adamw	poelcat: the rest of the page is, just that bit is not how i envisaged it being 'permanently'	Mar 17 11:34
adamw	it could go up now for sure if people agree, just with the proviso that we understand we're going to revise those pages and that section ought to shrink a bit as a consequence, not grow :)	Mar 17 11:35
poelcat	what are thoughts on beland's proposal to move forward?	Mar 17 11:35
adamw	fine by me	Mar 17 11:35
tk009	+1	Mar 17 11:35
poelcat	+1	Mar 17 11:36
tk009	we can talk till we are blue in the face and get nothing done, or move forward here	Mar 17 11:36
poelcat	jds2001: iarlyy others ?	Mar 17 11:36
iarlyy	+1	Mar 17 11:36
poelcat	okay, so what is our next target for finishing the front page?	Mar 17 11:37
poelcat	understanding that we're moving foward with the present draft :)	Mar 17 11:37
poelcat	and making it the new front page	Mar 17 11:37
beland	Next week there will be the draft of the "How to Triage" page to approve.	Mar 17 11:38
adamw	i think we need a sort of 'how to do stuff' hub page, perhaps	Mar 17 11:38
adamw	we have lots of little 'how to' bits spread around	Mar 17 11:39
adamw	they need to be rationalized into one or a small number of pages - if a small number, it can be below a hub page	Mar 17 11:39
beland	That's pretty much what my draft is intended to be...	Mar 17 11:39
adamw	cool	Mar 17 11:39
beland	(I just sent e-mail with a link; it's posted on the wiki)	Mar 17 11:39
adamw	i would anticipate that would eliminate the separate 'finding bugs', 'how to find duplicate bugs', 'how to triage' and 'stock responses' links at least	Mar 17 11:39
poelcat	great!	Mar 17 11:40
beland	Why don't we let people read the draft, then if they have specific proposals about which links they want to add/remove, we can discuss that as well next week.	Mar 17 11:40
adamw	yep, sounds great	Mar 17 11:40
poelcat	any more on this topic?	Mar 17 11:41
adamw	i move we wait on beland's draft and discuss it on the list and at next week's meeting	Mar 17 11:41
adamw	that seems like the logical way to proceed with the wiki stuff	Mar 17 11:41
beland	Who is pushing the draft live?	Mar 17 11:41
adamw	i guess i can do it, since it's my draft	Mar 17 11:41
adamw	is that OK?	Mar 17 11:41
beland	The honor is yours.	Mar 17 11:41
adamw	alright :) will do it now.	Mar 17 11:41
tk009	we got your back brother	Mar 17 11:41
poelcat	next topic.... * Wiki tracking page - Discuss the changes beland made to the tracking draft page (now renamed Components_and_Triagers) and other pages created from the split.	Mar 17 11:42
poelcat	what are the specific things we need to discuss?	Mar 17 11:43
adamw	I guess just is everyone happy with it now	Mar 17 11:43
tk009	the components and triagers is good to go I feel	Mar 17 11:43
adamw	since the issue was that it combined too much stuff	Mar 17 11:43
*poelcat still thinks the metrics need to go :)		Mar 17 11:43
poelcat	they are already stale	Mar 17 11:43
adamw	it does say "soon to replace stats tracking on this page"	Mar 17 11:43
*poelcat didn't see that, but that's okay		Mar 17 11:44
beland	Perhaps next week metrics will be live and the stats can be separated.	Mar 17 11:44
beland	They are not stale; those are baseline numbers. The live numbers you get from the provided links.	Mar 17 11:44
poelcat	i noticed that the bug queries... query ALL open bugs... I thought our initial target was 'rawhide' bugs	Mar 17 11:44
adamw	does everyone like the 'component information' column I added?	Mar 17 11:44
beland	I do like the new column; seems handy.	Mar 17 11:45
iarlyy	+1	Mar 17 11:45
adamw	iarlyy: note it's renamed now :)	Mar 17 11:45
*iarlyy agrees :D		Mar 17 11:45
beland	We could add Rawhide-only links, though for some components, there are only a handful of non-Rawhide bugs.	Mar 17 11:45
beland	Personally, I zero out all F9 and F10 bugs at the same time when there is such a small number.	Mar 17 11:46
adamw	it's also not necessarily a safe distinction, as bugs *reported* in f9/f10 may well also be present in rawhide...	Mar 17 11:46
iarlyy	the component list is sorted by what?	Mar 17 11:46
poelcat	iarlyy: name	Mar 17 11:47
adamw	it's alphabetical	Mar 17 11:47
iarlyy	it's right?	Mar 17 11:47
poelcat	except the capitlized ones :-/	Mar 17 11:47
poelcat	i'm fine leaving the queries as they are if there are no strong feelings	Mar 17 11:47
iarlyy	if is alphabetical, anaconda could be in first .. isn't?	Mar 17 11:48
poelcat	iarlyy: correct	Mar 17 11:48
adamw	it's Linux alphabetical.	Mar 17 11:50
adamw	:P	Mar 17 11:50
adamw	Z comes before a.	Mar 17 11:50
poelcat	next topic... * Bug Work Flow Graphic correction - Confirm the proposed changed submitted by John5342 to the work flow graphic.	Mar 17 11:50
poelcat	the graphic still looks like my original creation :)	Mar 17 11:50
tk009	I thought he made that change and uploaded it already	Mar 17 11:50
poelcat	has it been changed?	Mar 17 11:50
tk009	I changed it	Mar 17 11:50
tk009	but only slightly	Mar 17 11:50
tk009	I htought john had something better	Mar 17 11:50
tk009	he showed it to us	Mar 17 11:51
tk009	and said I will upload it later	Mar 17 11:51
poelcat	okay, looks like we can check back on that next tiem	Mar 17 11:51
poelcat	next topic..... * Meeting time and day - Continue the discussion on change to the meeting schedule based on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugzappers_meeting_matrix.	Mar 17 11:51
tk009	while this time is fine for e I would happly move to any other time. I vote yes to any time chosen =)	Mar 17 11:52
poelcat	who is leading the time change effort?	Mar 17 11:52
*poelcat is just following along :)		Mar 17 11:52
tk009	I thought that was adam	Mar 17 11:52
poelcat	adamw: ?	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	errr, was it?	Mar 17 11:53
*adamw hides behind something		Mar 17 11:53
adamw	i thought it was jstizzle!	Mar 17 11:53
tk009	yes you sent the mail out about it	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	damn, busted	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	that was only a SUGGESTION	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	:)	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	ok, i'll send a follow-up mail to the list	Mar 17 11:53
adamw	saying 'looks like this is the most popular time from the matrix, so we can move to that time or stick with the current time'	Mar 17 11:54
adamw	then take it from there.	Mar 17 11:54
tk009	we need to do better about discussion on the list	Mar 17 11:54
tk009	most are not responding	Mar 17 11:54
iarlyy	tk009: agrees	Mar 17 11:54
poelcat	what should we or can we do about it?	Mar 17 11:55
tk009	well if we vote on things on the list and get no response we should take that as a yes	Mar 17 11:56
tk009	inform people no response is a yes on votes	Mar 17 11:56
iarlyy	is a good idea	Mar 17 11:56
tk009	we could have done this whole eeting on the list	Mar 17 11:56
poelcat	okay.. 3 minutes left.. any other topics besides bug day after the meeting?	Mar 17 11:57
iarlyy	as we said in brazil, "silence give consent"	Mar 17 11:58
tk009	=)	Mar 17 11:58
tk009	I have nothing else	Mar 17 11:58
beland	What about the 000-Not-Sure-What-Component-To-File-Against issue?	Mar 17 11:58
adamw	i like the proposal	Mar 17 11:59
adamw	i dunno if we have power to create components in bz though	Mar 17 11:59
beland	We can ask.	Mar 17 11:59
tk009	to zappers?	Mar 17 11:59
poelcat	is that question posted on the list?	Mar 17 12:00
beland	It was, yes.	Mar 17 12:00
beland	It got crickets.	Mar 17 12:00
poelcat	when?	Mar 17 12:00
tk009	that was jsut today right?	Mar 17 12:00
tk009	this morning	Mar 17 12:00
poelcat	okay	Mar 17 12:01
poelcat	let's discuss next week if nothing happens on the list :-/	Mar 17 12:01
poelcat	we're overtime ... thanks everyone for comming :)	Mar 17 12:01

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