ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-jul-02

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-07-02

Fedora 5 shutdown

• f13 - We're well on our way to shutting down FC5
• f13 - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Fedora5Shutdown
• warren - had trouble getting repoclosure to behave and will finish up whatever needs to be done

Decision: warren wrapping things up

Fedora 8 Schedule Adjustments

• Freeze dates do not line up on the correct week days
• Supposed to be freezes on Tuesdays, and target the next Thursday (one week +2 days) for release
• Make minor corrections +/-1 day

Decisions:

• schedule dates will be adjusted to follow format of Freeze on Tuesday, release on following Thursday (week +2days). New schedule will be proposed to FESCo
• GA changes by one day later to November 8th.
• Let RHEL Engineering know

Fedora Signing Server

• It is very clear to us that we need more than just me signing/pushing f7 updates however we also don't want to be giving more people the pass phrase to the gpg key. So we need some form of a signing server.
• Draft spec for the signing server by f13 is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/SigningServerSpecDraft
• f13 is requesting input on the spec (from those that haven't given it to me already)
• make what is there more official
• use it to evaluate some existing code (not open source yet) to determine if it's worth the up front cost of open sourcing it vs writing our own.

Decision: None at this time

perl-devel in build roots

• perl-devel in the minimal build root was supposed to be a short term "hack" for getting Fedora 7 out the door, to be removed for Fedora 8. It is still there.
• it is scheduled for removal today

Decision: removal of 'perl-devel' from minimal build roots is put on hold until a final vote comes out of Fedora Packaging Committee and ratified by FESCo

image composes in the colo

• talk with mike/infrastructure and get things set so that we can do Official (tm) tree/live image composes on hardware in the colo (hosted data center)

Decision: topic added to next weeks meeting using this week to determine where we are for accomplishing this goal.

IRC Transcript

--- Log opened Mon Jul 02 11:24:43 2007
Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 63 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 62 normal]		<a href="#t11:24" class="time">11:24</a>
Irssi: Join to #fedora-meeting was synced in 0 secs		<a href="#t11:24" class="time">11:24</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
jwb	here	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* warren here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13	spot: jeremy: notting: wwoods: poelcat: ping	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13	hrm, no Rex.	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* jeremy is here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
notting	yes?	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13	notting: just role calling	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* wwoods here		<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13	ok, lets get started.	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora 5 shutdown - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13	We're well on our way to shutting down FC5	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
f13	<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Fedora5Shutdown">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Fedora5Shutdown</a>	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
warren	I had trouble getting repoclosure to behave	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	I think we're just waiting for warren to finish repoclosure to see how we stand, and send an announcement.	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	and "fix" the internal tools (this may have already been done)	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	and then we'll be done.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	Any further discussion needed on this?	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
warren	not really	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
warren	I'll finish up whatever needs to be done	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
warren	I have the announcement almost writen	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
warren	written	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
wwoods	sounds good	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	k, moving on.	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora 8 Schedule Adjustments - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	so this is a bad on me thing.	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	I had previously been looking at the schedule and thinking that all the freeze days and stuff were right and not noticing that some freezes were on Wed, some on Monday, some on Friday	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	and the release days were on Wed.  This is not what we agreed upon late last release where we would do freezes on Tuesdays, and target the next Thursday (one week +2 days).	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	so I'd like to apply that to the schedule propose it to FESCo	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13	that would shift TEst1 to Freeze July 24th, release Aug 2nd	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
f13	Test2 is Freeze Aug 28th, release Sept 6th	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	test3 is Sept 25th freeze, Oct 4th release	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
warren	effects final too?	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	Final freeze oct 24th, release Nov 8th	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	er	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	Freeze Oct 23rd, release Nov 8th	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	these aren't really big changes, most are just a single day on one or the other side, most of them make the freeze a day earlier and the release a day later.	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren	sounds good to me	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren	f13, one caveat	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
notting	wfm	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13	(note that freeze doesn't always extend through till the release, freeze can be lifted earlier)	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
jeremy	wfm	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren	f13, notify RHEL engineering so perhaps their deadlines don't clash with ours	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
wwoods	yeah, these are still pretty minor changes but I'm sure they'll appreciate being notified	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	warren: can do.	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	Any opposed?	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren	f13, kreilly might be good.	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
warren	f13, +1	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
f13	ok, We'll consider that passed and I'll present to FESCo	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
f13	or maybe just mail to list to get it taken care of sooner	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
poelcat	f13: summary?	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
f13	poelcat: Decision, schedule dates will be adjusted to follow format of Freeze on Tuesday, release on following Thursday (week +2days).  New schedule will be proposed to FESCo	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora Signing Server - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
poelcat	f13: thanks!	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
f13	It is very clear to us that we need more than just me signing/pushing f7 updates	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
f13	however we also don't want to be giving more people the passphrase to the gpg key.  So we need some form of a signing server.  I created a draft spec for the signing server:	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
warren	timezone coverage (more than just American east) would be nice	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/SigningServerSpecDraft">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/SigningServerSpecDraft</a>	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	warren: yes, that can be accomplished by having more than just me.	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	I'd like to get some initial input on the spec (from those that haven't given it to me already) so that I can make this more official, and use it to evaluate some existing code (not opensource yet) to determine if it's worth the up front cost of opensourcing it vs writing our own.	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	either way, having a general consensus of how this thing should operate and what goals we'd like to accomplish with it would be good.	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	so take time after the meeting to review and provide me with whatever feedback you can, and we'll vote on list or some such to make it "official" after the fact.  Sound good?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren	are you asking implementation details yet?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	warren: purposefully left out.	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
f13	warren: I don't want people's minds clouded with such details.  I'm more after the general goals and high level design	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
jwb	like i said before, it seems good to me	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	ok, lets move on in the interest of time.	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - perl-devel in buildroots - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	This is the last named subject for today	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	perl-devel in the minimal buildroot was supposed to be a short term "hack" for getting Fedora 7 out the door, to be removed for Fedora 8.  I forgot to remove it early on, and noticed it recently	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13	Robin sent an announcement that this would be going away, scheduled for removal today.	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
warren	I personally think we don't gain anything by removing it from the minimum buildroot.	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13	There has been some discussion after that about this afterward, but I don't thikn it means we shoudln't remove it.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	warren: silent BuildRequires in packages.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	or rather missing.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
jeremy	f13: is perl-devel really any worse in that respect than gcc?	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
jeremy	(aside: not sure this is really rel-eng's call in any case)	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
warren	f13, there isn't full agreement that perl should have been split at all.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	jeremy: honestly I don't know, but the split of devel content vs runtime content has been made, we're just cleaning up the temporary work around.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
warren	f13, perl-devel could be in the same category as gcc.  Where exactly do we draw this arbitrary line?	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	warren: there isn't full agreement on many if not most of the things that are done in Fedora.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
jeremy	f13: I think we should hold off on the change and push the question to the packaging committee as they're the people that should be making the call	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
jwb	yes	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	to be fair, we'd be removing a change we did before.  We've always had 'perl' listed as a default package.  This is really a subject of the 'perl' package changed contents do we adjust buildroot .	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	IIRC this came up with python-devel a while ago and we didn't add python-devel to the buildroot	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
warren	So we're going with jeremy's suggestion?	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	but I'm OK with passing it off to FPC as well.	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	they decide, we impliment.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	Isn't FPC where this originated?	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	perhaps FESCo should vote on this?	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	FESCo gets teh chance to override any FPC (and releng) decision	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	FPC normally only makes recommendations for FESCo to ratify.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	they're presented at the beginning of each FESCo meeting, so nothing new needs to happen wrt FESCo	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	poelcat: DECISION: removal of 'perl-devel' from minimal buildroots is put on hold until a final vote comes out of Fedora Packaging Committee and ratified by FESCo	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Open Discussion		<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	anybody got anything they'd like to discuss?	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
drago01	f13: mass rebuild?	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13	drago01: FESCo decision.	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren	Did/will any major toolchain things happen necessitating a mass rebuild?	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
drago01	f13: ok	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13	warren: I've only caught wind of somethings that might	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
notting	warren: possibly	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
drago01	dunno but will we have gcc 4.2 in F8 ?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
wwoods	was there a FESCo decision about how to propose/track new features?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
notting	drago01: no	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	drago01: question for the Tools team.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
wwoods	since we'll be the ones responsible for shepherding / kicking things out	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren	gcc 4.2 will break C++ ABI for the first time since gcc-3.3 IIRC.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	wwoods: poelcat's proposal is out there, FESCo talked a bit about it.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
* poelcat is working on 0.2 right now		<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
jwb	f13, hans wants us to talk about automatic update pushing	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
* jwb ducks		<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13	again?	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
wwoods	still being refined and discussed, then. in the meantime should we add stuff to the feature list as before?	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
jwb	f13, i think he missed that we talked about it	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
wwoods	I thought automatic update pushing a) required a signing server and b) was maybe already added to bodhi	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13	wwoods: promotion, not pushing.	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	wwoods, right promotion not pushing	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	wwoods: yes, just add to list as before.	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	sorry, my mistake	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
wwoods	ah	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	jwb: I replied to hans	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	heh, me too	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
XulChris	whats the diff between promoting and pushing?	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	XulChris, promotion means the request goes from updates-testing to updates	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
jwb	XulChris, pushing means the packages actually get pushed to repos	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
mclasen	of course, the bodhi ui does not use these terms...	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	XulChris: promotion is something the maintainer does, or automation does in behalf of the maintainer.  pushing is somethign rel-eng does, which involves signing the packages and such.	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	mclasen: yes, some terminology cleansing is needed.	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
XulChris	f13: ah k thx	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
jwb	mclasen, we can change that	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	are there any other topics to discuss?	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
jeremy	who's working on the 36 hour days? :)	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
jwb	i am	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
jeremy	excellent.  keep us updated on the status	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
poelcat	f13: what about freeze dates around rel-eng tools	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
jwb	jeremy, will do.  currently blocked by that stupid speed of light issue	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
poelcat	seems like someone mentioned that as something to do differently for F8?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
jwb	poelcat, meaning pungi and livecd-tools, or other things only used by rel-eng like mash?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	poelcat: well, they're a good idea, but I don't know if we're to the point of making policy on that.	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
mclasen	jwb: update to light 2.0	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	especially as that would cut across into things like Anaconda which is a bit beyond our reach	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
jwb	mclasen, ooh!  that rss feed must have gone by too quickly	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
poelcat	f13: wouldn't that overall be a good thing if all that was in sync?	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
jeremy	poelcat: I think for f7, we largely went by "freeze the tools feature-wise by feature freeze, bugfixes from there"	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
jeremy	poelcat: which seems reasonable enough to me	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
jwb	well	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	poelcat: I think rel-eng should be aware of changes being made to things that effect us, like changes in Anaconda, koji, etc...	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
jwb	i think one thing we should strive for this time is to make sure the pungi/livecd-tools that are used to spin the isos for release are the versions actually included in the release	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	jwb: sometimes that's hard to do	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
jwb	f13, i said "strive for"  not "require"	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	true	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
jeremy	jwb: if we're going to do that, then we need to move the configs out of the packages imho	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
jwb	jeremy, yes.  is that a problem per se?	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jeremy	jwb: it's not a huge problem -- it's a change from what some people have wanted, though	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jwb	i can see both sides i guess	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jeremy	me too	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jwb	i don't think we need to decide anything right now.  maybe just keep it in the middle of our brains	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
f13	sure	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jeremy	jwb: sounds good :)	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jeremy	f13: related note -- we should talk with mike/infrastructure and get things set so that we can do Official (tm) tree/live image composes on hardware in teh colo	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
notting	is there anything preventing that?	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
* warren has A/C repairman over, bbl		<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
jeremy	notting: preventing which?	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
notting	composes in phx	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
f13	disk space and machines mostly	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
f13	there is an RFR for systems I think.	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
mmcgrath	~/me is here	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
f13	jeremy: lets add that topic to next weeks meeting, and spend this week seeing where we are for accomplishing that goal.	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
jeremy	f13: okie	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
f13	anything else?	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
f13	ok, meeting over.	<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel</a> -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting		<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
f13	thanks all	<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
--- Log closed Mon Jul 02 13:55:23 2007

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