Meeting:Board meeting 2009-08-27

This meeting was held in IRC Freenode #fedora-design at 1630 UTC to discuss the state of the website redesign process and the mockups created by the Design team. The meeting was open to all community members as posted on FAB here and here.

#fedora-design log

stickster	caillon: dgilmore: jwb: mmcgrath: spot: mdomsch: glezos: notting: ping, meeting time	27 Aug 12:30
jwb	LET'S DO IT	27 Aug 12:30
notting		27 Aug 12:30
* notting is here		27 Aug 12:30
stickster	mizmo: ping to you too	27 Aug 12:30
stickster	:-)'	27 Aug 12:30
* stickster notes that poelcat is on vacation this week and completely off the intartubez		27 Aug 12:31
dgilmore		27 Aug 12:31
* dgilmore is here		27 Aug 12:31
mmcgrath		27 Aug 12:31
* mmcgrath here		27 Aug 12:31
stickster	glezos may not make it, he's in transit	27 Aug 12:31
jwb	stickster, i'm envious	27 Aug 12:31
stickster	Anyone seen mdomsch?	27 Aug 12:31
stickster	HAHA	27 Aug 12:31
stickster	speak of the devil and he appeareth!	27 Aug 12:31
stickster	That was just perfect timing, mdomsch	27 Aug 12:31
mdomsch	pointed ears heard the cry	27 Aug 12:32
stickster	:-)	27 Aug 12:32
nirik		27 Aug 12:32
* nirik is hanging around in the back to heckle.		27 Aug 12:32
stickster	nirik: In the finest of traditions!	27 Aug 12:32
stickster	OK, seems like everyone's here.	27 Aug 12:32
stickster	The Board is holding a meeting here today in place of our normal conf-call	27 Aug 12:32
stickster	So that we can talk about the current mockups that mizmo has put together for spins.fp.o, and get.fp.o	27 Aug 12:33
stickster	We delayed a half-hour out of deference to our host mizmo so she'd have a chance to get food and thus not pass out partway thru the meeting :-)	27 Aug 12:34
stickster	Let me dig up URLs for the latest mockups	27 Aug 12:34
stickster	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png	27 Aug 12:34
stickster	That's the latest spins.fp.o mockup -- what I call a "hub" sometimes for shorthand	27 Aug 12:34
stickster	The latest get.fp.o mockup is here:	27 Aug 12:35
stickster	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 12:35
mmcgrath	the getfp.o page makes me want to play super mario brother.	27 Aug 12:35
stickster	Before we get to looking at the mockups themselves, let's spend a few minutes talking about requirements	27 Aug 12:35
stickster	mmcgrath: That was one of them :-D	27 Aug 12:35
stickster	About a month ago we started by setting out some information on the FAB list such as our purpose	27 Aug 12:36
stickster	and laying out the things we wanted to see out of a redesign	27 Aug 12:37
stickster	Something we realized early on was that we needed to do a better job of organizing choice site-wide	27 Aug 12:37
stickster	So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences	27 Aug 12:38
stickster	We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing	27 Aug 12:38
stickster	and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora	27 Aug 12:39
mmcgrath	uh-oh	27 Aug 12:40
mmcgrath	oh, she's back	27 Aug 12:40
mmcgrath	:)	27 Aug 12:40
stickster	and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice	27 Aug 12:40
stickster	I wrote a big summary of this a couple days ago to FAB, so hopefully this is kind of a recap	27 Aug 12:40
mizmo	So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences	27 Aug 12:40
mizmo	sorry, i dont know what is going on w the network	27 Aug 12:41
jwb		27 Aug 12:41
* jwb wonders if stickster has a thesaurus open		27 Aug 12:41
stickster	So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences	27 Aug 12:41
stickster	We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing	27 Aug 12:41
stickster	and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora	27 Aug 12:41
stickster	and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice	27 Aug 12:41
stickster	mizmo: Does that catch you up?	27 Aug 12:41
mizmo	yes but ive never heard of the word concomitantly before lol	27 Aug 12:42
jwb	me either :)	27 Aug 12:42
stickster	That's what comes of having my first job be in a law office :-D	27 Aug 12:42
stickster	"alongside"	27 Aug 12:42
caillon	it's not as dirty as it sounds	27 Aug 12:42
stickster	caillon: I suppose it depends on where you work :-	27 Aug 12:42
stickster	:-)	27 Aug 12:42
spot		27 Aug 12:42
* spot stops googling it		27 Aug 12:42
mizmo	so should i post the mocks i did this morning? most are pencil sketches but i started work on a shiny updated details page for the kde spin too	27 Aug 12:43
stickster	<dangerfield>No respect!</dangerfield>	27 Aug 12:43
stickster	mizmo: That would be great	27 Aug 12:43
stickster	mizmo: I posted some URLs earlier but a refresh is much appreciated	27 Aug 12:43
mizmo	kk so here's a in-progress spin details mock featuring kde http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png	27 Aug 12:43
mizmo	then ive got a set of sketches	27 Aug 12:43
* stickster notes that mchua_mtg was kind enough to put together Website_redesign_2009 for us		27 Aug 12:43
mizmo	to represent #4 'more options' on this page http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png	27 Aug 12:44
stickster	Whoa, I dig the sub-branding	27 Aug 12:44
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png	27 Aug 12:44
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png	27 Aug 12:44
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png	27 Aug 12:44
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_activity-tab.png	27 Aug 12:44
mizmo	so the idea is that they're tabs of the same page.... if you click on "view full list of options" - http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 12:45
mizmo	right now you'd go to the format tab	27 Aug 12:45
drago01	doesn't the "Intel compat" results into "but does it run on amd" or "does it run on my via nano" kind of confusion?	27 Aug 12:45
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= if you click on each of the formats / arch /desktop / format then it'd bring you to the corresponding tab on that page	27 Aug 12:45
drago01	*result	27 Aug 12:45
mizmo	drago01: yeh im not sure the best wording for that	27 Aug 12:46
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png	27 Aug 12:46
mizmo	there is some space below the arch and above the individual downloads to have some exlanation	27 Aug 12:46
notting	so more options != spins page?	27 Aug 12:46
stickster	mizmo: Ah, so the "Other options" box on get.fp.o is aligned with these new tabbed pages	27 Aug 12:46
mizmo	so maybe the heading could be '32-bit' and underneath we list out examples of that	27 Aug 12:46
Kevin_Kofler	So you actually need 2 clicks to get to the spins page using the "more options" link?	27 Aug 12:46
mdomsch	I agree these are great top-level choosers	27 Aug 12:46
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: don't worry, it's one click to get to kde	27 Aug 12:46
mizmo	notting: im not sure yet, this is how it shook out so far, it's two clicks	27 Aug 12:47
mdomsch	thoughts on helping users choose download methods?	27 Aug 12:47
mdomsch	torrent, mirror, metalink, ?	27 Aug 12:47
mizmo	notting: so if you want a desktop spin u go to the desktops tab, if you want an activity-based spin (FEL, education) u go to the activity tab	27 Aug 12:47
mizmo	mdomsch: yeh i haven't addressed that yet	27 Aug 12:47
mizmo	mdomsch: i was thinking once i get these into inkscape playing around with either having a dropdown download button for that	27 Aug 12:47
notting	mizmo: as opposed to just having a more raw spins.fp.o listing?	27 Aug 12:47
stickster	mizmo: Maybe it would help to start by walking us through the flow here	27 Aug 12:47
mmcgrath	How feasible is it going to be to get this all done prior to the F12 launch?	27 Aug 12:47
stickster	Can we do that before we start diving into everything else?	27 Aug 12:48
mdomsch	mizmo, sounds good	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	mdomsch: and/or maybe having a sidebar in the right hand side to point to the mirrors portal and the torrents portal etc	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	and what i mean by dropdown download button... one sec	27 Aug 12:48
mdomsch	mirrors portal really isn't ideal, it could use some love too, but that's for another day	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	oh poo i can't find the example im looking for	27 Aug 12:48
* stickster is trying to understand what happens when someone types "get.fp.o" into their browser.		27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	mdomsch: yes absolutely	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	stickster: sure i can start a walkthrough	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	okay	27 Aug 12:48
mizmo	so im an experienced fedora user	27 Aug 12:49
brunowolff	I would find it hard to write a promo for the games spin that made it sound as important as the filler text provided for KDE.	27 Aug 12:49
mdomsch	do we think people will understand the "tabs are different ways to slice the same data" principle?	27 Aug 12:49
stickster	brunowolff: Hold off for just a moment, let's have mizmo walk us through stuff.	27 Aug 12:49
mizmo	and i want the x86_64 version of the KDE spin	27 Aug 12:49
mizmo	i know what i want	27 Aug 12:49
mizmo	so i go to www.fedoraproject.org, just cuz about 50% of respondents to my survey said thats what they do (and they're all experienced peeps)	27 Aug 12:49
mizmo	here's what i see	27 Aug 12:49
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	hmm nice big download button! but it's marked as 32-bit. not what i want. I click on 'more options'	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	alternatively, i click on 'download' in the top nav bar	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	if i click 'more options'	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	i land here	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png	27 Aug 12:50
caillon	my only concern is if a "new" user clicks onto one of the tabs and gets sent to this page with a lot of (in their eyes, confusing) information, how do they get back?	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	if i click 'download'	27 Aug 12:50
mizmo	i land here http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	again i see the desktop edition is a live media spin, doesn't mention KDE, and is 32-bit. not what i want. i scan the page.	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	oh look, more options.	27 Aug 12:51
mmcgrath	so more options == get.fedoraproject.org ?	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	oh look, it mentions KDE>	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	no, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= get.fpo	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	although we could move the url to point to the other	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	depends if we want noobs to go to get.fpo	27 Aug 12:51
mizmo	i wouldn't expect a noob would know the url already	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	so maybe thats a good idea mmcgrath to point it to more options	27 Aug 12:52
mmcgrath	ah, ok. so both get.fp.o and (www.)fp.o have a download button and a more options button?	27 Aug 12:52
stickster	mmcgrath: I think that's right, yes	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	yep	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	so you can get to more options in one click from the front page	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	which means, Kevin_Kofler , you can get to KDE in two clicks	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	anyhow ill continue my little tale of adventure and excitement	27 Aug 12:52
stickster	:-)	27 Aug 12:52
mizmo	so http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= i see KDE mentioned in the more options box and i see x86_64 hmm	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	i decide i click on KDE.	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	i get brought here:	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	oh look look at that, a 64-bit KDE download right there. score.	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	so that's my experienced user walkthrough.	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	the noob walkthru, i dont know if i should do?	27 Aug 12:53
stickster	mizmo: Sure	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	okay	27 Aug 12:53
mizmo	so i'm susie noobie	27 Aug 12:53
stickster	Although that's pretty easy I know	27 Aug 12:53
jwb	wait	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	jwb: sup	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	can we have discussion after walkthrus?	27 Aug 12:54
thomasj		27 Aug 12:54
* thomasj has a question as well		27 Aug 12:54
jwb	i ahve a question on this one though...	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	can it wait? it'll take me 2 min	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	to do susie noob	27 Aug 12:54
thomasj	sure	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	kk	27 Aug 12:54
mccann	hey mizmo looking at your arch diag. another page we want is the initial homepage for each spin	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	so im susienoobie, my friend tells me about fedora, oh wow, it's so awesome. she sends me a link, fedoraproject.org	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	i take a look	27 Aug 12:54
mizmo	there's a big ol' 'download button' - but that's moving too fast for me. i'm not ready to commit	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	i see a 'more information' link so i click that	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	and i get brought here	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	oh look at this, i dont even have to format my hard drive. nice. okay ill give it a try. click	27 Aug 12:55
mdomsch	page1 is fp.o?	27 Aug 12:55
stickster	(reassuring text that it won't kill my system) <-- cool	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	i get brought here	27 Aug 12:55
stickster	mdomsch: correct	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png	27 Aug 12:55
mizmo	nice ill keep this page open as i try this thing out	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	okay	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	im done with walkthrus	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	so mccann to your question, yeh the spin homepages are gonna be off spins.fpo	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	here's the spins.fpo front page mock so far	27 Aug 12:56
jwb	when you say "experienced user" do you mean someone experienced with computing, linux, fedora, or all of the above?	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	well	27 Aug 12:56
mmcgrath	jwb: I think she means someone that knows what they want, or at least thinks they do.	27 Aug 12:56
mizmo	jwb, exactly what we've been discussing on the mailing list	27 Aug 12:56
mccann	mizmo: i mean the initial home page for the browser after install	27 Aug 12:57
mizmo	newbie == has experience with computers, is technical, doesn't necessarily use linux all the time or may not have used it before. or they may use a different distro but never tried fedora.	27 Aug 12:57
mccann	which for the desktop we'd like to have apps and themes and stuff there	27 Aug 12:57
mizmo	experienced user == already a fedora user, knows what they are doing	27 Aug 12:57
mdomsch	spin directory: clicking in a box takes you to the spin's page? Clicking "download now" does?	27 Aug 12:57
jwb	mizmo, hm. your walkthru is slightly flawed with that definition	27 Aug 12:57
mizmo	mccann: i have not mocked that up. it's not in the requirements right now and ive already got a LOT of mockups on my plate here :(	27 Aug 12:57
mizmo	jwb: how so	27 Aug 12:58
jwb	but i guess that isn't really important at all, now that i think about it. the walkthru fits other definitions just fine	27 Aug 12:58
Kevin_Kofler	Shouldn't at least the spins page say somewhere the Desktop spin uses GNOME?	27 Aug 12:58
mizmo	jwb: i want to know how it doesnt fit	27 Aug 12:58
stickster	mizmo: I think experienced users here is not necessarily a group comprised of *just* Fedora users, right?	27 Aug 12:58
caillon	also, i think we want to auto-detect the user's arch if possible and offer that by default to the user.	27 Aug 12:58
mccann	so a few comments on the default get page...	27 Aug 12:58
mizmo	stickster: i believe the definition i was furnished involved not fedora user	27 Aug 12:58
mccann	we should support usb installs too	27 Aug 12:58
jwb	mizmo, because someone experienced with fedora will probably just go directly to download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/linux/<path to ISO they want>	27 Aug 12:58
jwb	(or their mirror of choice)	27 Aug 12:59
drago01	caillon: does not really work you migth be running 32bit firefox on a 64bit os	27 Aug 12:59
mizmo	jwb: actually my survey showed that is not actually the case	27 Aug 12:59
thomasj	mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages?	27 Aug 12:59
drago01	(windows)	27 Aug 12:59
mmcgrath	jwb: I don't do that	27 Aug 12:59
mizmo	has anyone here seen the getting fedora survey i did?	27 Aug 12:59
thomasj	Do i have to walk trough some mirrors?	27 Aug 12:59
mccann	we may want to look into having an xpi plugin that can assist with the download and cd creation	27 Aug 12:59
jwb	as i said, it doesn't really matter. the walkthru stands on it's own	27 Aug 12:59
mizmo	here pretty graphs http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/	27 Aug 12:59
mdomsch	mccann, that's a "format" choice on the format page	27 Aug 12:59
mizmo	http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-result-discussion/	27 Aug 12:59
caillon	drago01, I think that would be an okay case to miss.	27 Aug 12:59
stickster	mizmo: I've seen it, it was a smart thing to do	27 Aug 12:59
mdomsch	assuming we have something to offer to burn to a usb key	27 Aug 13:00
mmcgrath	perhaps we (as people in the meeting) should just stick with stuff that is really important to them. Stuff that's blocker status or near-blocker status.	27 Aug 13:00
mmcgrath	lots of cooks, small kitchen, not a lot of time.	27 Aug 13:00
mizmo	by far, the most popular method for folks who are readers of either planet fedora or planet gnome is to start at www.fpo and go from there to download fedora.	27 Aug 13:00
drago01	caillon: you would miss every case where the user doesn't know already that he wants 64bit because he uses it	27 Aug 13:00
caillon	drago01, we're going to offer x86-32 as the default otherwise, so it's not like we'd be losing anything	27 Aug 13:00
mizmo	mmcgrath: more like one driver in a clown car o_O	27 Aug 13:00
caillon	but the default would be 32bit anyway	27 Aug 13:00
caillon	if we don't auto-detect	27 Aug 13:00
drago01	caillon: ok that makes sense	27 Aug 13:00
dgilmore	caillon: atu detecting what to offer based on browser is kinda dumb	27 Aug 13:01
mizmo	i think that features like autodetection should probably wait until we've got the basics down first.	27 Aug 13:01
nirik	caillon: the failure case there is if you are just using a 64bit machine to download and were planning on installing on a 32 bit machine. You get something that you can't use. ;(	27 Aug 13:01
mizmo	we don't have to get every great idea in here at once.	27 Aug 13:01
mizmo	we can take an iterative approach.	27 Aug 13:01
jwb	yes	27 Aug 13:01
mizmo	mmcgrath: and to your earlier question, yes, i am very scared about the amount of time we have left here.	27 Aug 13:01
caillon	nirik, if you know enough to do that, i think you know the difference between the bits and can change your choice.	27 Aug 13:01
dgilmore	nirik: or your on a ppc box but need intel for the new machine you just got	27 Aug 13:02
mizmo	dgilmore: no idea is a dumb idea. :) however feasible or whatever an idea is it can spark a new awesome idea	27 Aug 13:02
jwb	dgilmore, we are not targeting non-x86 arches anyway	27 Aug 13:02
mizmo	thomasj: you mentioned u had a question before? did it end up getting answered?	27 Aug 13:03
thomasj	no	27 Aug 13:03
mizmo	thomasj: sup?	27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore	jwb: right, but there are alot of ways for it to fail	27 Aug 13:03
thomasj	mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages?	27 Aug 13:03
drago01	minior nitpick "256MB" is definitly not enough for the desktop spin	27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore	but regardless	27 Aug 13:03
caillon	dgilmore, besides, the browser can get what your system arch is, not just the arch of the browser, afaik	27 Aug 13:03
mizmo	thomasj: right now it's not in the mockup but i would think maybe this would be an appropriate page for it: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png	27 Aug 13:03
mizmo	thomasj: what do you think?	27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore	caillon: no it doesnt	27 Aug 13:03
mizmo	drago01: all those requirements i grabbed fomr the desktop guide for f11.	27 Aug 13:04
caillon	dgilmore, i'm not talking about useragent	27 Aug 13:04
mdomsch	mizmo, agreed on format tab	27 Aug 13:04
thomasj	mizmo, yep, would be a good place, thanks	27 Aug 13:04
drago01	mizmo: ok, but that does not mean that those aren't wrong	27 Aug 13:04
mizmo	thomasj: from the survey it turns out quite a few people use that to grab fedora so i think it's good to offer it up	27 Aug 13:04
mizmo	drago01: yeh but what im saying is, i dont do the docs, we should fix the docs first	27 Aug 13:04
mizmo	drago01: maybe 3 or 4 other people have pointed out the 256 mb to me :(	27 Aug 13:05
drago01	mizmo: yeah	27 Aug 13:05
mizmo	but if that's what the docs say... right?	27 Aug 13:05
jwb	this is a mock up anyway. move on?	27 Aug 13:05
stickster	mizmo: drago01: Good points -- drago01, can you chase that down with Docs and file a bug?	27 Aug 13:05
thomasj	mizmo, yes, i know a lot of experienced linux user use it. So thanks for putting it on it.	27 Aug 13:05
drago01	stickster: sure, why not	27 Aug 13:05
stickster	drago01: Thanks, excellent	27 Aug 13:05
stickster	drago01: I'm guessing the Installation and Installation Quick Start Guides are the relevant pieces	27 Aug 13:06
mizmo	so there's a lot of people who know what they're doing when they download fedora who go straight to a particular portal (mirrors.fpo. torrents.fpo, etc) to get it	27 Aug 13:06
mizmo	so i think having a consistent naming scheme and maybe even somewhere, a directory of all those portals would be good	27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	and branding those sites, altho it may be out of scope for f12	27 Aug 13:07
* stickster agrees this is a good f13target		27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	generally for our website it might be good to have a site that shows all the fedora subdomains	27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	kind of like google and yahoo do	27 Aug 13:07
stickster	"site map"?	27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	yeh	27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	exactly	27 Aug 13:07
stickster	mizmo: This might make a good subject to round up at FUDCon	27 Aug 13:07
mizmo	so those experienced users if for somereason forget the url but know it exists, they have a play to look it up	27 Aug 13:07
stickster	i.e. in November gather the stuff, check our heads at FUDCon and maybe write up a schedule for providing the necessary pages	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	so one thing i uncovered in the survey that 6% of 78 users had ever gone to spins.fpo at all	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	to get fedora	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	which is why i did the mocks with the tabs the way i did this morning	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	i dont know if that's kosher or not tho	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	what do you think?	27 Aug 13:08
mizmo	i think we need to do a lot more socialization / marketing of spins before people go straight there	27 Aug 13:09
stickster	mizmo: I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that there's not much there to attract anyone... it's basically just a torrent listing.	27 Aug 13:09
thomasj		27 Aug 13:09
* thomasj likes the tabs		27 Aug 13:09
mizmo	stickster: yeh but more people went to mirrors.fpo and torrents.fpo than spins.fpo,and they're basically of the same, uh, design :)	27 Aug 13:09
jwb	anything would be an improvement over the current spins.fp.org	27 Aug 13:09
stickster	mizmo: It might be that any "hub" idea that's just a list -- whether it's pretty or not -- may not do much for people	27 Aug 13:09
jwb	mizmo, that goes back to what i said about people going directly to the site they know of	27 Aug 13:09
jwb	download.f.r.c or mirrors (or torrent)	27 Aug 13:10
mmcgrath	mizmo: are the tabs going to be a time killer?	27 Aug 13:10
mizmo	mmcgrath: i hope not :(	27 Aug 13:10
stickster	mizmo: So are you saying the tabbed page might make just as good a spins.fp.o page as the 8- or 10-block list version?	27 Aug 13:10
mizmo	stickster: well i liked ben bockel's idea that there's desktop spins vs 'activity' spins	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	stickster: the tabs let me split that out	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	the spins directory... i dunno... why would someone want to go there	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	i just struggle with why a spin	27 Aug 13:11
stickster	So you can use taxonomies that make sense to people	27 Aug 13:11
mmcgrath	mizmo: yeah, I like that to.	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	yeh	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	i mean	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	i could do that on spins.fpo	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	but, then it seems weird to split spins vs arch & format across two different sites	27 Aug 13:11
drago01	stickster: bug filed	27 Aug 13:11
stickster	"I want to do <XXX>" or "I want architecture <XXX>" are completely different approaches	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	so i dont know if we should drop this spins.fpo redesign or not	27 Aug 13:11
mizmo	stickster: but what do you want to do if you're interested in kde or xfce? they have no activity goal	27 Aug 13:12
stickster	mizmo: Well, not dro the redesign	27 Aug 13:12
stickster	*drop	27 Aug 13:12
mizmo	stickster: the only reason you would ever want them is to be different	27 Aug 13:12
stickster	mizmo: But rather, instead of doing just "a prettier list" we're doing something that supports the user's intentions and decision points	27 Aug 13:12
mdomsch		27 Aug 13:12
* mdomsch likes http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png as a frontpage for spins.fp.o		27 Aug 13:12
mmcgrath	drago01: # ?	27 Aug 13:12
jwb	XFCE = "I want something small and fast"	27 Aug 13:12
stickster	i.e. "I want to base my decision making on the following factors:"	27 Aug 13:12
jwb	KDE = "I want KDE"	27 Aug 13:12
drago01	mmcgrath: 519753	27 Aug 13:12
notting	mizmo: i just want to not send people to a torrent listing, ever :)	27 Aug 13:13
spot	SPARC = "I am possessed by the devil"	27 Aug 13:13
mizmo	so uhh	27 Aug 13:13
jwb	(sorry, i don't know what activity/usage KDE normally gets associated with)	27 Aug 13:13
stickster	notting: +1	27 Aug 13:13
mizmo	did anybody see the spins details mock i did	27 Aug 13:13
stickster	mizmo: I did	27 Aug 13:13
mdomsch	recall, part of why spins.fp.o is just a torrent listing, is because we linked 'spins' and 'download methods' inappropriately	27 Aug 13:13
mizmo	k lemme post it again for referencehttp://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png	27 Aug 13:13
mdomsch	now that we can serve spins via other download methods	27 Aug 13:13
mizmo	i think it's important for spins to have a homebase with a subdomain they can point people to	27 Aug 13:13
stickster	mizmo: Wait	27 Aug 13:13
stickster	mizmo: Before we leave the "hub" topic	27 Aug 13:14
thomasj	mizmo, +1	27 Aug 13:14
stickster	Do we have any general agreement that the tabbed (multi-dimensional) approach is going to be more effective than the approach shown at http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png ?	27 Aug 13:14
Kevin_Kofler	KDE = I want a fully configurable desktop	27 Aug 13:15
jwb	Kevin_Kofler, ok	27 Aug 13:15
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: you don't *do* 'fully configurable desktop'	27 Aug 13:15
* stickster believes the answer to that question is yes, the tabbed approach is going to support people who are making decisions based on a lot of differnt factors		27 Aug 13:15
drago01	mizmo: "want to customize the desktop do dead"	27 Aug 13:15
drago01	*to	27 Aug 13:16
notting	the tabbed approach may be better, yes	27 Aug 13:16
stickster	Board members: what say you?	27 Aug 13:16
thomasj	drago01, matter of opinion	27 Aug 13:16
stickster	notting: Thanks	27 Aug 13:16
spot	i like the tabs.	27 Aug 13:16
jwb	stickster, i agree the tabbed approach is cleaner	27 Aug 13:16
drago01	thomasj: sure	27 Aug 13:16
notting	stickster: not sure how it scales down to non-desktop browsers. also not sure we care :)	27 Aug 13:16
stickster	notting: You mean, how does this page look in elinks?	27 Aug 13:17
mdomsch	tabs++	27 Aug 13:17
drago01	notting: you don't download fedora on your phone .. do you?	27 Aug 13:17
mizmo	if someone wants to download an iso for fedora on their iphone...... they're weird	27 Aug 13:17
notting	drago01: i hope not	27 Aug 13:17
stickster	"Help, I'm stuck at runlevel 3, I need Fedora!"	27 Aug 13:17
stickster	:-)	27 Aug 13:17
stickster	OK, it sounds like the tabs win by a landslide.	27 Aug 13:17
mclasen		27 Aug 13:17
* mclasen thinks that anything that forces a 10-way choice onto people who just want to 'get fedora' is not a winning approach		27 Aug 13:17
dgilmore		27 Aug 13:17
* dgilmore like the tabbed approach		27 Aug 13:17
mizmo	i care about text-based brwosers and i do not think theres anything about this design that wouldn't work	27 Aug 13:17
mizmo	mclasen: no one is forcing a choice	27 Aug 13:17
stickster	mclasen: Note that this page is not where uninformed users will land.	27 Aug 13:18
jwb	mclasen, which is why this is the spins page, not the main page...	27 Aug 13:18
mizmo	mclasen: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 13:18
mclasen	ok, I did not know that	27 Aug 13:18
mclasen	thanks	27 Aug 13:18
jwb	too many URLs flying around	27 Aug 13:18
stickster	mclasen: We covered that earlier but I'll be happy to send you the log	27 Aug 13:18
mizmo	mclasen: is that mockup okay with you? that's the proposed new www.fpo download page	27 Aug 13:18
mclasen	no need	27 Aug 13:18
stickster	mizmo: Sorry I made us back up there temporarily	27 Aug 13:18
jwb	maybe we could have big diagonal labels across them so they are easily identified as get.fp.o and spins.fp.o, etc	27 Aug 13:18
stickster	mizmo: You were about to go on to talk about subdomains	27 Aug 13:19
jwb	but a bit late now	27 Aug 13:19
mizmo	jwb: thats an interesting idea	27 Aug 13:19
mizmo	jwb: i do think the subdomains *maybe* could be branded like that	27 Aug 13:19
mdomsch	with the tabs, do we _have_ a spins.fp.o ?	27 Aug 13:19
jwb	mizmo, i just meant for the purposes of this discussion	27 Aug 13:19
mizmo	and i like the diagonal label idea it might work better with the main fedora branding than making sub brands for each subdomain	27 Aug 13:19
mizmo	ohhh	27 Aug 13:19
jwb	mizmo, so i could correlate which .png went with which page	27 Aug 13:19
mizmo	i think in general it might be cool on the pages themselves lol	27 Aug 13:20
jwb	ok, that's fine too	27 Aug 13:20
mizmo	jwb: i think i put circled numbers on the sketches at least	27 Aug 13:20
jwb	i'm glad to have contributed a creative idea, even if it was accidental :)	27 Aug 13:20
stickster	mdomsch: I think the idea is that (1) spins.fp.o points to that tabbed page, and (2) the workflow we engineer doesn't rely on a spins.fp.o site, period -- (1) would be to cover the dead link	27 Aug 13:20
thomasj		27 Aug 13:20
* thomasj has to leave, sadly, but he wants to thank mizmo for her hard work and the amazing design. I will read the log later.		27 Aug 13:20
mizmo	mdomsch: you could drop spins.fpo and stick with the desktop tab and the activities tab, but i like spins.fpo too because it gives you more room to have details pages for each individual spin	27 Aug 13:20
mizmo	however	27 Aug 13:20
mizmo	overall do we expect the number of spins to grow overtime more than it has been?	27 Aug 13:20
mizmo	thomasj: thanks :) :)	27 Aug 13:20
* stickster shuts up since mizmo has a different idea that's probably better		27 Aug 13:21
jwb	mizmo, the growth rate has declined somewhat	27 Aug 13:21
jwb	i wouldn't say it won't grow though	27 Aug 13:21
* stickster rips the duct tape off		27 Aug 13:21
Kevin_Kofler	At least the Moblin packager plans to have a spin for F13.	27 Aug 13:21
stickster	true	27 Aug 13:21
mdomsch	mizmo's draft of spins.fp.o (with all the boxes) covers the content that's now split across 2 tabs (activity and desktop)	27 Aug 13:22
spot		27 Aug 13:22
* spot notes that mizmo is temporarily afk		27 Aug 13:22
stickster	mdomsch: That's one reason the tabs might work better	27 Aug 13:22
mizmo	sorry i had to get a cake	27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch	so pointing the url spins.fp.o/ at a page needs to be one or the other	27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch	or add a [spins] tab that addresses all of them	27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch	but that's kind of horky	27 Aug 13:23
notting	mizmo: bring enough to share?	27 Aug 13:23
mizmo	sorry :(	27 Aug 13:23
jwb	the cake is a lie	27 Aug 13:23
mizmo	[ * ] | <= here u go virtual cake	27 Aug 13:23
mizmo	well if we expect spins to grow	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	i mean	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	there were originally some really grand plans for spins.fpo	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	where it would integrate wevisor	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	and it would have lots and lots and lots of spins such that it would be categorized and search based	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	but	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	we've never had enough spins to justify an idea like that and also	27 Aug 13:24
mdomsch	'suse studio'...	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	i think we dont have the people working on the wevisor stuff	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	mdomsch: yes exactly	27 Aug 13:24
mizmo	mdomsch: what we could do for f12 is leave spins as is, go with these tabs	27 Aug 13:25
mizmo	and do spins cleanup to look like this new mock for f13	27 Aug 13:25
mdomsch	mizmo, good plan	27 Aug 13:25
mizmo	thing is tho	27 Aug 13:25
stickster	That assumes that we have someone building new functionality (a spinner app) at the same time, right?	27 Aug 13:25
stickster	in the f13 cycle, I mena.	27 Aug 13:25
stickster	*mean	27 Aug 13:25
mdomsch	stickster, not really	27 Aug 13:26
mizmo	we got 6% of survey people going to it at all, again they're experienced fedora or foss folks. i dont think people feel they need to go there	27 Aug 13:26
mdomsch	mizmo, I'm fine with not having a spins.fp.o URL we advertise anymore	27 Aug 13:26
mizmo	maybe it's not needed	27 Aug 13:26
mdomsch	but I kind of like the "showcase" effect that your mockup provided	27 Aug 13:26
mizmo	yeh	27 Aug 13:26
nirik		27 Aug 13:26
* nirik has been off working... but I just want a page I can point people to who want the Xfce spin, etc...		27 Aug 13:26
mizmo	i think for sure	27 Aug 13:26
mizmo	individual spins need details pages	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	exactly what nirik points out	27 Aug 13:27
stickster	mizmo: We could still have the showcase widget (interviews, whatever) underenath the "by-dimension" listing, right?	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	and i think maybe spinsfpo is the best place	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	stickster: yeh we could	27 Aug 13:27
mdomsch	mizmo, so how do we get to that showcase spinsfpo from the chooser tabs?	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	mdomsch: well the thing about the tabs is they are about GETTING fedora	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	getting the spins	27 Aug 13:27
mizmo	they are ISO focused	27 Aug 13:28
mizmo	the thing about spins.fpo as mocked up is they're about the spins themselves. not just an iso. a community, stuff you can do, etc	27 Aug 13:28
mdomsch	good point	27 Aug 13:28
mizmo	so i think	27 Aug 13:28
nirik		27 Aug 13:28
* nirik would also like the spins detail pages to tell how to install that desktop/whatever on a existing install.		27 Aug 13:28
spot	perhaps a "learn more about Fedora spins" link?	27 Aug 13:28
mizmo	it's weird to mush !get-an-iso stuff into the get-an-iso page	27 Aug 13:28
stickster	It would be confusing to just stuff more links in there, yeah	27 Aug 13:28
mizmo	spot: yeh i think maybe	27 Aug 13:28
mclasen		27 Aug 13:28
* mclasen agrees about not mushing		27 Aug 13:28
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	see in the right column	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	i listed 'live media' as a 'format' but then really just push you over to spins.fpo	27 Aug 13:29
mdomsch	longevity on these getfedora* pages: we'll need a separate batch of them for each release	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	mdomsch: oh gosh yes how do people get older versions of fedora	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	thats not addressed in these at all	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	do we need an 'archive' tab or maybe a 'archive' link just in the footer?	27 Aug 13:29
jwb	ugh	27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	and say we had these mocks implemented now	27 Aug 13:29
* stickster raises a controversial point, that we don't want to over-promote old Fedora.		27 Aug 13:29
mizmo	they're f11 pointing	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	when f12 comes out	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	we move them from www.fpo/get to www.fpo/f11/get	27 Aug 13:30
jwb	stickster, agreed	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	stickster: yeh thats why im saying put it in the footer or something	27 Aug 13:30
caillon	yeah, i think that's basically what mozilla does	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	not too prominent, but accessible	27 Aug 13:30
* stickster thinks a single (de-emphasized) pointer back to archive.fp.o would suffice		27 Aug 13:30
stickster	mizmo: Right on	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	kk	27 Aug 13:30
mizmo	so i definitely need to update mocks to reflect that	27 Aug 13:30
mdomsch	at least, get-prerelease/ is separate from the get-current/	27 Aug 13:31
Kevin_Kofler	We shouldn't link old Fedora at all.	27 Aug 13:31
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: what do you mean by old	27 Aug 13:31
mizmo	not latest, but still supported?	27 Aug 13:31
mizmo	un supported?	27 Aug 13:31
mizmo	both?	27 Aug 13:31
Kevin_Kofler	At most we could have a get-previous (like get-prerelease), but why would we link an already EOL release?	27 Aug 13:31
jwb	i don't think that's what we were talking about	27 Aug 13:31
mizmo	ok so youre assumed old == unsupported, so what about f10	27 Aug 13:31
jwb	i think we were talking about e.g. F10	27 Aug 13:32
mizmo	we're at f11 now but f10 is still supported	27 Aug 13:32
Kevin_Kofler	But do we want people to download it now?	27 Aug 13:32
mizmo	do our hardware reqs go up over time with releases?	27 Aug 13:32
mdomsch	mizmo, somewhat yes	27 Aug 13:32
caillon	Kevin_Kofler, yes, people may want to do that if they have an i386 only machine	27 Aug 13:32
mclasen	but once Fx+1 is released, we don't really want to push people to install Fx	27 Aug 13:32
mizmo	mdomsch: so we may want to keep at least live media from F7 on available	27 Aug 13:32
caillon	Kevin_Kofler, or if they want to test something	27 Aug 13:32
stickster	I think we want as many people going to the latest as possible. We shouldn't completely hide our archive, but it should get as little eyeballing as possible	27 Aug 13:32
caillon	or if they need a rescue cd	27 Aug 13:32
mdomsch	stickster++	27 Aug 13:33
stickster	caillon: Kevin_Kofler: Or if they need to reproduce results	27 Aug 13:33
caillon	or have an F9 box and want to do incremental upgrades	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	mclasen: we could treat it with sort of a historical archive kind of thing	27 Aug 13:33
caillon	right	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	i dunno	27 Aug 13:33
* stickster notes he had to grab a F9 just the other day to try and help with a bug		27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	http://browsers.evolt.org/ <= this site has saved my behind a number of times	27 Aug 13:33
caillon	there are many reasons to want to download older versions, so they should be around	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	but i guess browsers and versioning makes more sense than os and versioning	27 Aug 13:33
caillon	but it's not like we have to prominently feature them	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	yeh	27 Aug 13:33
stickster	Right, maybe just a note in the footer/gutter for "Archive"	27 Aug 13:33
stickster	or "Archived releases"	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	im saying, just a little thingy in the footer, is all	27 Aug 13:33
stickster	mizmo: +2	27 Aug 13:33
mizmo	no tab for it	27 Aug 13:34
mdomsch	agreed - no tab	27 Aug 13:34
caillon	definitely not	27 Aug 13:34
mizmo	i know i mentioned that as an idea before but as soon as i hit enter on that i thought, crap bad idea	27 Aug 13:34
mizmo	kk	27 Aug 13:34
caillon	i probably wouldn't mind if all it linked to was just an ftp directory	27 Aug 13:34
jwb	we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)?	27 Aug 13:34
mizmo	caillon: thats a great idea :)	27 Aug 13:34
mizmo	caillon: less work for me too lol	27 Aug 13:35
stickster	caillon: http://archive.fedoraproject.org/pub/archive/ <--mizmo	27 Aug 13:35
nirik		27 Aug 13:35
* nirik suggests if they go to EOL releases, they include a disclaimer.		27 Aug 13:35
mdomsch	archive includes a disclaimer already	27 Aug 13:35
stickster	nirik: There's one on that page I just linked, as luck would have it :-)	27 Aug 13:35
nirik	yep.	27 Aug 13:35
jwb	stickster, that URL doesn't have F10 (or even F9)	27 Aug 13:35
stickster	jwb: Oh, you're right	27 Aug 13:35
mizmo	i didnt know archive.fpo existed! hot damn	27 Aug 13:36
mizmo	stickster: that url is perfect	27 Aug 13:36
stickster	9 just hasn't been moved there yet, probably because mmcgrath hasn't run low enough on space yet	27 Aug 13:36
jwb	damn is an appropriate word in some context, yes	27 Aug 13:36
mdomsch	jwb, it's time to move f9 over to there	27 Aug 13:36
jwb	yes. anyway. back to the topic at hand	27 Aug 13:36
jwb	?	27 Aug 13:36
stickster	1	27 Aug 13:36
mmcgrath		27 Aug 13:37
* mmcgrath just hasn't done it yet.		27 Aug 13:37
stickster	mmcgrath: np, just noting that things roll in there generally as needed	27 Aug 13:37
stickster	we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)?	27 Aug 13:37
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png	27 Aug 13:38
mizmo	/\ that's it	27 Aug 13:38
stickster	Is there anything on the spins.fp.o where we don't have a consensus yet, where you need one, mizmo?	27 Aug 13:38
notting	none above what i mentioned on the list	27 Aug 13:38
mizmo	there seems to be.... less drama about it than i thoght there would be lol	27 Aug 13:38
mizmo	notting: i hear you on the grey thing, when we implement it the text will be darker... we'll probably use chunks form the current fpo stylesheet	27 Aug 13:38
jwb	are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now?	27 Aug 13:38
mizmo	not sure	27 Aug 13:39
dgilmore	jwb: i think we should	27 Aug 13:39
jwb	ok. well i think FESCo needs to decide there, no?	27 Aug 13:39
mizmo	supported fedoras right now == f10 and f11	27 Aug 13:39
* stickster thinks we're going to derail this into a preupgrade debate		27 Aug 13:39
mizmo	both are preupgradable	27 Aug 13:39
mizmo	in the past we had f9 in the fray which i believe was not preupgradable?	27 Aug 13:39
jwb	stickster, right. something that just caught my eye	27 Aug 13:39
stickster	F9 was the first to allow it	27 Aug 13:39
mizmo	kk	27 Aug 13:39
mdomsch	preupgrade has lots of failure cases yet	27 Aug 13:39
jwb	mizmo, i think someone that wants to drive that should run it past FESCo	27 Aug 13:39
mizmo	jwb: should i pull it from the mock?	27 Aug 13:40
mizmo	and tlel them to get the DVD instead?	27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler	I'm just one FESCo member, but IMHO yes, preupgrade should be the recommended method.	27 Aug 13:40
stickster	This might be a good question for mclasen	27 Aug 13:40
stickster	I think preupgrade is the most sensible method we have	27 Aug 13:40
jwb	mizmo, not necessarily. just be prepared to change the text :)	27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler	Upgrading from the DVD doesn't include updates, so it's a recipe for upgrade path breakage.	27 Aug 13:40
mclasen		27 Aug 13:40
* mclasen missed the question		27 Aug 13:40
mizmo	in case it helps, ~20% of the survey respondents said they use preupgrade	27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler	E.g. do it for F10->F11 and wham, no more yum!	27 Aug 13:40
stickster	are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now?	27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler	(Well, yum is there, but you have to hack Python search paths to make it work.)	27 Aug 13:40
mizmo	63% said they download the DVD (but that might not necessarily be fore upgrade)	27 Aug 13:41
mdomsch	mizmo, regarding the banner artwork on getfpo, I presume that'll be different?	27 Aug 13:41
jwb	stickster, i thought you said you didn't want to get into that here...	27 Aug 13:41
mizmo	f11 and it's working for me right now	27 Aug 13:41
stickster	jwb: Yeah, more food for thought	27 Aug 13:41
mdomsch	feels like 2001 XP again	27 Aug 13:41
mizmo	mdomsch: for these mockups, ricky and decided we'll try to implement them within the current www.fpo template	27 Aug 13:41
stickster	jwb: mclasen is on Desktop team obviously, and I had met with a few people, including jrb and skvidal, about the future of preupgrade	27 Aug 13:41
mizmo	mdomsch: and do a template refresh for f13	27 Aug 13:41
mizmo	mdomsch: since this is a large load, we thought that might help us crank it out quicker	27 Aug 13:42
mdomsch	ok	27 Aug 13:42
mclasen	stickster: I'd be more happy to do that if we were confident that it works and has people who look after it	27 Aug 13:42
mizmo	mdomsch: the artwork is totally placeholder, if people ike it we can keep it if not we can get something different	27 Aug 13:42
stickster	mclasen: We can discuss later, JRB had said there might be interest on his team to help	27 Aug 13:42
Kevin_Kofler	mizmo: You did it right when F11 got released, before the yum update to F10 which made it newer than on the F11 DVD, maybe?	27 Aug 13:42
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: no i did it maybe a month after f11 came out	27 Aug 13:42
jwb	that's sort of offtopic	27 Aug 13:42
jwb		27 Aug 13:42
* jwb herds cats		27 Aug 13:42
mizmo	mreeeow	27 Aug 13:42
jwb	i curse myself for bringing this up	27 Aug 13:43
jwb	:)	27 Aug 13:43
mizmo	jwb: well i think it's over now?	27 Aug 13:43
jwb	k	27 Aug 13:43
mizmo	jwb: ill wait on.... fesco.....? or stickster? to figure out if im pushing dvd or preupgrade?	27 Aug 13:43
mdomsch	"Other Options" bullets will match/link to tabs	27 Aug 13:43
mizmo	jwb: either way we gotta get that decision made before translation freeze	27 Aug 13:43
mizmo	mdomsch: yep absolutely	27 Aug 13:43
jwb	right	27 Aug 13:43
mizmo	mdomsch: and the all link at the bottom goes to the first tab	27 Aug 13:43
mmcgrath		27 Aug 13:43
* mmcgrath notes he has another meeting in about 15 minutes.		27 Aug 13:43
mdomsch	What is the "view full list of options" link to?	27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch	I'm not sure we'll have such	27 Aug 13:44
jwb	so answering my own previous question, i'm quite happy with -17.png	27 Aug 13:44
mizmo		27 Aug 13:44
* mizmo notes the sugar high from cake will probably only last another 15 minutes		27 Aug 13:44
mizmo	mdomsch: it'd go to the first tab	27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch	so formats and "full list" are the same then	27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch	ok	27 Aug 13:44
mizmo	mdomsch: and the rationale behind that - i made the first tab have the dvd as the most prominent thing, since i thin it was 68% of survey respondents said they get the DVD	27 Aug 13:44
stickster	caillon: How do you feel about the -17.png mock?	27 Aug 13:44
mizmo	mdomsch: yeh exactly, do you tihnk that works?	27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch	sure	27 Aug 13:45
mizmo	kk	27 Aug 13:45
stickster	mizmo: Good thinking	27 Aug 13:45
mizmo	stickster: (im glad i did the survey hehe)	27 Aug 13:45
stickster	:-)	27 Aug 13:45
stickster	I have to say, I'm pretty happy with -17.png	27 Aug 13:45
stickster	Especially with the reorganization of the other options, and the tabbed landing page behind them	27 Aug 13:45
stickster	It's the most sensible construct we've had for decision-making	27 Aug 13:46
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: what do u think about the tabs thingy?	27 Aug 13:46
caillon	stickster, i don't think i have any major objections to it. mccann, mclasen?	27 Aug 13:46
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: also what do you think about this (not finished yet, old FEL refreence i forgot to change lol but maybe you get the idea) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png	27 Aug 13:47
stickster	"CLICK THIS BUTTON! Oh, are you one of those detail-oriented 'I like to read' people? Great, check this out..."	27 Aug 13:47
mclasen	caillon: works for me, without the pandas	27 Aug 13:47
stickster	mclasen: panda-hater ;-)	27 Aug 13:48
mizmo	mclasen: ... theres no pandas on it	27 Aug 13:48
stickster	That would have been funnier as "panda hata"	27 Aug 13:48
mizmo	don't hate the panda, hate the game	27 Aug 13:48
stickster	lul	27 Aug 13:48
mccann	caillon: what was the question? meeting is too fast for me	27 Aug 13:48
mclasen	mizmo: right, thats why I'm happy with it :-)	27 Aug 13:48
caillon	now i'm picturing a katamari opening scene	27 Aug 13:48
mizmo	mclasen: ah hehe	27 Aug 13:48
caillon	mccann, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png any objections?	27 Aug 13:48
jwb	rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: same question	27 Aug 13:49
Kevin_Kofler	Well, the tabs are a fairly good presentation, especially the link directly to the "by desktop" tab from the "more options" box.	27 Aug 13:49
mizmo	speaking of katamari's opening scene, yes, we could do worse than pandas o_O that king guy is SCARY	27 Aug 13:49
notting	mizmo: actually, a question now	27 Aug 13:49
stickster	mizmo: -1 offtopic :-D	27 Aug 13:49
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: does it allay any of the concerns you brought up earlier?	27 Aug 13:49
mizmo	notting: kk shoot	27 Aug 13:49
Kevin_Kofler	But I still don't like and will never like the way this is much less prominent than the big GNOME-only "Download Now!" button.	27 Aug 13:49
notting	mizmo: do 'More download options' and 'View full list of options' go to the same place?	27 Aug 13:49
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: but you're feeling better about it than you did earlier?	27 Aug 13:50
mizmo	notting: yeppers	27 Aug 13:50
Kevin_Kofler	I'd like the listing by desktop to be the main download page.	27 Aug 13:50
notting	mizmo: do we ned both, then?	27 Aug 13:50
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: the problem is that by far the most popular download is the DVD	27 Aug 13:50
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: live media i think was 42%? dvd 68%	27 Aug 13:51
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: so i thought it'd be important to make the DVD the first tab	27 Aug 13:51
Kevin_Kofler	Then why is the big download link to the live media?	27 Aug 13:51
mclasen	oh, I think we had a problem with making the dvd very prominent	27 Aug 13:51
mclasen	mccann ?	27 Aug 13:51
mizmo	notting: i don't think more than one path is necessarily is a bad thing	27 Aug 13:51
notting		27 Aug 13:51
* notting thinks Kevin_Kofler and mclasen are discussion different screens		27 Aug 13:51
Kevin_Kofler	The DVD could use a better way to select a pure KDE desktop, but that's out of the scope of this meeting.	27 Aug 13:52
mccann	sorry xchat is not displaying my channel correctly... brb	27 Aug 13:52
mizmo	notting: the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the main download page mirrors the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the front page of www.fpo	27 Aug 13:52
stickster	Actually, the Live image is far more popular than the DVD when you include all the downloads we track.	27 Aug 13:52
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: that's okay, you don't have to answer my question.	27 Aug 13:52
notting	mizmo: maybe, i just think if you already have an 'other options' box, you don't need the one line of text. but if you're pulling widgetry	27 Aug 13:52
notting	(i.e., trying to keep a common look and feel)	27 Aug 13:52
mizmo	stickster: if you aggregate the live media it hink your numbers are going to be off. there is one DVD. there are multiple livemedia. a person could download kde + gnome and that counts as 2 downloads, but they download dvd only counts as 1	27 Aug 13:52
mizmo	stickster: unless by live media you mean only the desktop spin	27 Aug 13:53
mclasen	mccann: saw my earlier question ?	27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler	mizmo: To answer your question, I'm still feeling just as bad about the front page and main download page as those still feature GNOME directly through a big direct download button and KDE only through a small link.	27 Aug 13:53
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: okay so these tabs do nothing for you. good to know.	27 Aug 13:53
drago01	(I don't really like hidding 64bit but this is a good compromise)	27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler	I'm feeling better about the "more options" page, as KDE is no longer lost in the big list of spins.	27 Aug 13:53
stickster	mizmo: Good point, I'll have to delve into that	27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler	So the tabs are an improvement, but they don't and can't solve the main issue.	27 Aug 13:54
mizmo	stickster: the survey asked people across all live media, do you download live media, and the response was something like 42%	27 Aug 13:54
mizmo	stickster: and several folks mentioned they download more than one live media	27 Aug 13:54
Kevin_Kofler	drago01: That's a problem with the "big button" as well.	27 Aug 13:54
mizmo	drago01: the problem is there's too many dimensions, you cant have them all on one screen without being too cluttered	27 Aug 13:55
mccann	mclasen: no	27 Aug 13:55
Kevin_Kofler	mizmo: Well, as you know, that's a premise I already don't agree with. ;-)	27 Aug 13:55
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: to each his own	27 Aug 13:56
drago01	Kevin_Kofler, mizmo : yeah a long list of options is not an option either	27 Aug 13:56
mclasen	mccann: I said that I think we had a problem with making the dvd prominently available for download, and was asking for you to expand on that	27 Aug 13:56
rdieter	fwiw, i'm satisfied, modulo bikeshedding about prominence and button sizes	27 Aug 13:56
mizmo	the pages the dvd is feature on are meant to be for users who know what they want, not new users	27 Aug 13:56
mizmo	fwiw	27 Aug 13:56
stickster	I think overall, mizmo, you've produced something that does fit the requirements that we developed	27 Aug 13:56
mccann	mclasen: the dvd is currently a wasteland by all accounts	27 Aug 13:57
mizmo	thanks rdieter	27 Aug 13:57
mizmo	mccann: i did a survey of users and found 68% download the dvd	27 Aug 13:57
mccann	of course they did	27 Aug 13:57
stickster	Our goal was to find the right places to primarily feature choice, and the right places to de-emphasize it	27 Aug 13:57
drago01	stickster: yeah its way better than what we have now	27 Aug 13:57
mclasen	right, thats the problem	27 Aug 13:57
Kevin_Kofler	stickster: I think so too, my beef is with the requirements. ;-)	27 Aug 13:57
mccann	dvd sounds better than cd	27 Aug 13:57
mizmo	no	27 Aug 13:57
mccann	and historically we had tons of cds and people went for the dvd instead	27 Aug 13:57
mizmo	these are planet fedora and planet gnome readers who said this	27 Aug 13:57
drago01	hah! one more reason to drop cds!	27 Aug 13:58
caillon	Kevin_Kofler, :-)	27 Aug 13:58
mccann	that doesn't change the fact that the dvd is a wasteland	27 Aug 13:58
mizmo	multiple people stated they felt the dvd was a safer way to upgrade	27 Aug 13:58
Kevin_Kofler	Are the planets really a good sample of users?	27 Aug 13:58
stickster	Kevin_Kofler: Which is why we had a discussion open on the FAB list about them.	27 Aug 13:58
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: they are a good sample of users who are in the community and know what they want	27 Aug 13:58
drago01	mizmo: downloading the livecd does not make sense if you want to upgrade	27 Aug 13:58
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: which is a great sample for creating a design that caters to our more advanced users	27 Aug 13:58
mccann	the dvd doesn't make any sense in a "spin" world	27 Aug 13:58
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: which is what the more options pages ar emeant to do	27 Aug 13:58
Kevin_Kofler	That makes sense.	27 Aug 13:59
mizmo	mccann: there are a lot of people who consider spins only to be demoware	27 Aug 13:59
stickster	mmcgrath: Feel free to hang here, although I know you have another meeting to attend	27 Aug 13:59
mclasen	mizmo: that is a serious problem	27 Aug 13:59
notting	the DVD spin has no target, which makes it somewhat bad	27 Aug 13:59
mclasen	since the spins are what we are designing, the dvd is just a byproduct	27 Aug 13:59
stickster	The DVD is basically the equivalent of "part of the release tree on a disc"	27 Aug 14:00
mizmo	i can try to pull up the specific concerns voiced	27 Aug 14:00
mmcgrath	stickster: I am	27 Aug 14:00
mmcgrath	I have no real pain points with what remains except for time constraint worries	27 Aug 14:00
* stickster is a little lost what we're trying to solve with the current discussion		27 Aug 14:00
Kevin_Kofler	Yeah, the DVD feels more and more like "take the contents of the Desktop/GNOME and KDE spins, throw in a couple random extra packages and stuff an installer on it".	27 Aug 14:00
mizmo	"I rarely get the Spins as what I want is on the DVD and then net access. If I am using a spin.. its one I am building myself for a project that has no net access."	27 Aug 14:01
Kevin_Kofler	KDE SIG also really only tests the KDE spin.	27 Aug 14:01
Kevin_Kofler	And as mclasen is saying the same about GNOME/Desktop, that doesn't look too great for the DVD.	27 Aug 14:01
mizmo	"the dvd gets all the packages and is for the installation. I also get the live iso to put it on usb and fix friends’ computers, or maybe use it to install fedora in case the dvd fails as happened in F11"	27 Aug 14:01
mizmo	"for my own use, always the install DVD. also a Live image for sharing/playing with"	27 Aug 14:01
mizmo	"I would like to add a thought: This last release was the first one I used liveCD to disk install and it is amazingly fast, unfortunately it didn’t play well on keeping other OSes on the hard drive (I was too exhausted to even report this one I just live with it) and I ended up with only f11 after the install, but still I think I will be using this from now on, otherwise I use network install directly from fedora mirrors, but it takes about an hour,	27 Aug 14:01
mizmo	with liveCD – 10 minutes or less."	27 Aug 14:01
mccann	currently the DVD is not designed at all and isn't one of the spins and is a wasteland of crap.	27 Aug 14:02
mccann	we can fix that - but that is something we should do before promoting it	27 Aug 14:02
jwb	this discussion has ventured into FESCo territory	27 Aug 14:02
Kevin_Kofler	Do we need an "Installer DVD SIG"? ;-)	27 Aug 14:02
drago01	well the spins do not allow you to choose a different fs, could be fixed thought	27 Aug 14:02
mizmo	"DVD for new/fast installs, Live for service/repair, netinst for server/no-X installs"	27 Aug 14:02
stickster	jwb: I agree, I'm lost on why we're talking about this.	27 Aug 14:03
stickster	What's the point here? Serious question, not being snarky	27 Aug 14:03
notting	stickster: 'why promote the DVD if it's crap'	27 Aug 14:03
stickster	Where are we suggsting promoting the DVD?	27 Aug 14:03
jwb	where is it being promoted?	27 Aug 14:03
stickster	*jinx :-)	27 Aug 14:03
mizmo	i think the people who download the dvd know what they want	27 Aug 14:04
mizmo	or need it to upgrade	27 Aug 14:04
mizmo	sounds like the livemedia also overwrites dual boots	27 Aug 14:04
mizmo	id ont know about the upgrade case	27 Aug 14:04
stickster	I think we'd need to check that last claim out	27 Aug 14:04
stickster	I don't recall that being the case	27 Aug 14:04
stickster	But	27 Aug 14:04
mizmo	but could we push the netinstall for people who are not addressed by the live media?	27 Aug 14:04
Kevin_Kofler	The live media only overwrites other stuff if you don't know what you're doing.	27 Aug 14:04
notting	stickster: it was stated that that was the initial option on he 'more options' page	27 Aug 14:04
drago01	mizmo: it does? afaik it doesn't	27 Aug 14:04
Kevin_Kofler	There's a partitioning step in the installer just like on the DVD.	27 Aug 14:04
mizmo	Kevin_Kofler: we're targeting the live media at people who don't know what they're doing	27 Aug 14:05
drago01	atleast for dualbooting with windows	27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler	If you skip it, you get what you asked for.	27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler	It's the same on the DVD.	27 Aug 14:05
mizmo	maybe that needs a redesign them	27 Aug 14:05
drago01	Kevin_Kofler: with the exception that you cannot change the fs there	27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler	True.	27 Aug 14:05
mccann	mizmo: that's wrong. we target the livecds to everyone	27 Aug 14:05
mccann	not just "people who don't know what they are doing"	27 Aug 14:06
Kevin_Kofler	But people should be using the default anyway. ;-)	27 Aug 14:06
mizmo	mccann: everyone includes people who don't know what they are doing, correct?	27 Aug 14:06
mizmo	mccann: i did not say only	27 Aug 14:06
mccann	in fact we don't even test the dvds really	27 Aug 14:06
mccann	mizmo: ok	27 Aug 14:06
* stickster thinks that wide audience is part of the reason for wanting a bigger Live image.		27 Aug 14:06
notting	i'd be happy with live + netinst	27 Aug 14:06
drago01	Kevin_Kofler: noticed that when some said "wanted to try btrfs but the livecd did not show an option"	27 Aug 14:06
stickster	notting: That makes the most sense to me.	27 Aug 14:06
drago01	upgrades?	27 Aug 14:06
mizmo	would anyone have an issue with replacing the dvd option with live + netinst?	27 Aug 14:06
stickster	Either way you're downloading huge bits.	27 Aug 14:06
mizmo	what do upgraders do?	27 Aug 14:06
notting	mizmo: preupgrade, or netinst.iso + http upgrade	27 Aug 14:07
drago01	both suck	27 Aug 14:07
jwb	or straight yum	27 Aug 14:07
drago01	sucks even more	27 Aug 14:07
mizmo	notting: how does netinst.iso + http upgrade work? is that... workable? supported?	27 Aug 14:07
rdieter	I think the dvd also serves those with low bandwidth (ie, don't want to have to download anything extra)	27 Aug 14:07
jwb	we are not here to debate the merits of the various upgrade methodologies	27 Aug 14:07
mizmo	so heres the thing	27 Aug 14:07
notting	mizmo: you point to a http repo, select upgrade. should work bettre than DVD upgrade	27 Aug 14:07
mizmo	i really wanna close out feedback on these tomorrow	27 Aug 14:07
mizmo	so i can actually get them done in time for f12	27 Aug 14:08
stickster	jwb: I think we're trying to figure out whether the DVD has a place in our web design	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	if it's one day till i wanna freeze that and we dont even know	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	(1) what we want to push as the way to upgrade	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	(2) whether or not we even want to advertise the DVD	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	well	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	im biting my nails right now	27 Aug 14:08
jwb	stickster, which is fine. but if "DVD and preupgrade and yum and netinstall" all "suck", then that isn't helpful	27 Aug 14:08
mizmo	i kind of thought 68% on a survey answer they want the DVD, okay i'll give them the dvd	27 Aug 14:09
stickster	mizmo: Here's how I look at it. We're very late in F12 to alter the entire offering set, when we think the DVD might be an anchor for a lot of people.	27 Aug 14:09
mizmo	looks like it's a lot more complicated than that	27 Aug 14:09
stickster	Perhaps this should be set as a FUDCon topic: "Die DVD Die."	27 Aug 14:09
mizmo	it's a little late right now to be making changes like 'completely pull the dvd' without having some sort of suitable replacement to serve the needs the dvd served	27 Aug 14:09
mizmo	and again, 68% = a lot of needs	27 Aug 14:09
mizmo	but this could be my cake sugar high wearing off	27 Aug 14:10
* stickster goes back to "It's OK for people to be disappointed, it's not OK for them to be surprised."		27 Aug 14:10
notting	mizmo: at this stage, i suspect it needs to be an option, but i wouldn't make it the most prominent one	27 Aug 14:10
mizmo	notting: okay so what do we make the most prominent	27 Aug 14:10
mclasen	I think completely removing the dvd would be too radical this late	27 Aug 14:10
mizmo	the other tabs we got are	27 Aug 14:10
mizmo	desktop, arch, and activity	27 Aug 14:10
mizmo	i think activity should probably not be prominent	27 Aug 14:10
mizmo	i think it's between arch and desktop	27 Aug 14:10
mclasen	but making it sufficiently non-prominent to avoid the 'dvd sounds better than cd, so I'll go for that' issue, woudl be nice	27 Aug 14:11
mizmo	mclasen: i agree 100%	27 Aug 14:11
drago01	mizmo: not sure that many "users" know what "arch" is supposed to mean	27 Aug 14:11
mizmo	drago01: it says 'architecture' in the mockup, im making abbreviations in chat	27 Aug 14:11
mizmo	drago01: if that helps o_O	27 Aug 14:11
drago01	mizmo: no ... how many non developers/geeks know about cpu architectures or what that is?	27 Aug 14:12
mizmo	drago01: we're not targetting non developers / non geeks though	27 Aug 14:12
drago01	mizmo: don't have a better suggestion thought	27 Aug 14:12
mizmo	drago01: we're targetting 'tech-savvy users who may not necessarily use linux/foss'	27 Aug 14:12
mizmo	drago01: and 'tech savvy users who use a different distro than fedora'	27 Aug 14:12
stickster	drago01: Those people would already be served well by the general get.fp.o and front page.	27 Aug 14:12
tw2113		27 Aug 14:13
* tw2113 perks up		27 Aug 14:13
stickster	mizmo: OK, so what's the question at this point?	27 Aug 14:13
* stickster hoping that the extra time is helping us answer questions, not just add more		27 Aug 14:13
mizmo	stickster: which tab is the default tab for the download fedora pages: (1) architectures (2) desktops	27 Aug 14:13
dgilmore	id say desktop	27 Aug 14:14
jwb	desktop	27 Aug 14:14
tw2113	hmmm, yay this topic	27 Aug 14:14
drago01	yeah desktop	27 Aug 14:14
tw2113	"what is fedora's target audience"	27 Aug 14:14
drago01	tw2113: -ENOMEM	27 Aug 14:14
stickster	tw2113: That's not really what we're discussing here, but thanks :-)	27 Aug 14:14
stickster	mizmo: I'd say Desktop.	27 Aug 14:14
mizmo		27 Aug 14:14
* mizmo starts breaking out in hives		27 Aug 14:14
mizmo	tw2113: bad question lol	27 Aug 14:14
mizmo	okay	27 Aug 14:14
tw2113	i know	27 Aug 14:14
mizmo	we do desktop then	27 Aug 14:14
dgilmore	mizmo: no hives please ;)	27 Aug 14:15
tw2113		27 Aug 14:15
* tw2113 casts a heal spell on mizmo		27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	dgilmore: im allergic to that question	27 Aug 14:15
stickster	Next question?	27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	tw2113: phew thanks, thought i was gonna need some phoenix down for a while there	27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	oh	27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	i didnt get any feedback on the spin details page	27 Aug 14:15
tw2113	art, foss, inkscape, gimp, freedom!	27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png	27 Aug 14:15
mizmo	looking ok so far?	27 Aug 14:16
tw2113	healing words	27 Aug 14:16
jwb	mizmo, yes	27 Aug 14:16
dgilmore	mizmo: i think thats looking good	27 Aug 14:16
mizmo	yay	27 Aug 14:16
stickster	mizmo: One thing we're missing there is the required route for "Help me Mommy"	27 Aug 14:16
dgilmore	gives the sigs room to advertise, and provide lots of useful info	27 Aug 14:16
jwb	stickster, "google 'download fedora'" ?	27 Aug 14:17
mizmo	stickster: we could do a persistent slim banner in the right hand side of each tab to say, "Just want a Fedora that works? Go here."	27 Aug 14:17
stickster	Well, with different text, that's probably the right answer	27 Aug 14:17
jwb	ngh...	27 Aug 14:17
stickster	i.e. This Fedora works!	27 Aug 14:17
jwb	yeah, needs rewording	27 Aug 14:17
stickster	:-D	27 Aug 14:17
stickster	I knew what you meant though, mizmo	27 Aug 14:17
mizmo	lol	27 Aug 14:17
mizmo	sorry	27 Aug 14:17
mizmo	(*- -* ;;)	27 Aug 14:17
stickster	"I've read this page, and I'm not sure I want this, or what I want. What do you give to new users like me?"	27 Aug 14:18
stickster	That's not the text either, just the case I'm thinking of	27 Aug 14:18
mizmo	"Me Tarzan, you Fedora"	27 Aug 14:18
stickster	So we do the reciprocal version of what's on get.fp.o	27 Aug 14:18
mizmo	stickster: yeppers	27 Aug 14:18
stickster	They're dropping like flies.	27 Aug 14:19
mizmo	yes	27 Aug 14:19
mizmo	so i think im good	27 Aug 14:19
jwb	2 hours is the fedora meeting lifetime max	27 Aug 14:19
stickster	mizmo: Other than that, I think this is a brilliant "individual spin" mockup	27 Aug 14:19
mizmo	yay	27 Aug 14:19
stickster	I love the way that it has secondary branding	27 Aug 14:19
mizmo	:)	27 Aug 14:20
stickster	mizmo: *: Any other questions from anyone?	27 Aug 14:21
stickster	About designs, requirements, et al.?	27 Aug 14:21
mizmo	i think (hope) im good	27 Aug 14:21
mizmo	i guess, if you got any more comments please try to get them to me by tomorrow	27 Aug 14:22
stickster	mizmo: You've done an awesome job on this.	27 Aug 14:22
jwb	so	27 Aug 14:23
jwb	do we consider the design requirements closed now?	27 Aug 14:23
jwb	so mizmo and ricky can actually start coding...	27 Aug 14:23
mizmo	jwb: we need mocks before we can code :)	27 Aug 14:23
drago01_	yes we can't discuss this forever .. just go ahead and see how it does	27 Aug 14:23
stickster	jwb: That's right.	27 Aug 14:23
stickster	Pending the final designs that Mo is working on, we're good to go forward.	27 Aug 14:23
jwb	finally	27 Aug 14:24
tw2113	do eet to eet	27 Aug 14:24
stickster	I'm really excited that Fedora is going to look as fun as it is to run and be involved in.	27 Aug 14:24
stickster	mizmo: Can't say it enough, superb job.	27 Aug 14:24
tw2113	fedora is going to look like a party?	27 Aug 14:24
mizmo	;) tanks	27 Aug 14:24

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