Meeting:Board meeting 2010-10-01

Minutes and full logs available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2010-10-01/

IRC Log

jsmith	#startmeeting Fedora Board IRC Meeting	18:01
zodbot	Meeting started Fri Oct 1 18:01:19 2010 UTC. The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	18:01
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	18:01
jsmith	#meetingname Fedora Board	18:01
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'	18:01
jsmith	#topic Roll Call (for Board members)	18:01
* jsmith is here		18:01
* mdomsch		18:02
* jds2001		18:02
* ctyler here		18:02
* mizmo here		18:02
rdieter	here	18:02
jsmith	Looks like we have most of the board here :-)	18:03
jsmith	Great!	18:03
jsmith	#topic Introduction	18:03
jsmith	I'd like to take just a minute to introduce the topic and take care of a few particulars	18:03
jsmith	First of all, let me express my thanks for everyone who has helped us to work on the vision statement	18:03
jsmith	It hasn't been a particularly easy thing to do	18:03
jsmith	but I very much feel it's a worthwhile endeavor	18:04
jsmith	So, to make a long story short, this meeting is setup as a Q&A session around the vision statement	18:04
jsmith	(if we have extra time, we'll open things up for more general Q&A)	18:04
jsmith	We'll use our typical protocol for asking questions, which is detailed here: Board_public_IRC_meetings	18:05
jsmith	#info Meeting is for Q&A re: vision statement	18:05
jsmith	Any questions or comments before we get started with Q&A?	18:05
jsmith	#info Final draft of the Vision Statement is ""The Fedora Project creates a world in which free and open culture is both welcoming and pervasive, collaboration and outreach are the norm, and people are empowered to control their own content and devices."	18:06
jsmith	#topic Questions and Answers regarding the Vision Statement	18:07
jds2001	jaroslav raised a comment on the mailing list that's worth considering - pervasive would be a word not known to the average non-native english speaker	18:07
jsmith	The time is now yours for questions and answers... we'll try to limit each individual question to ~8 minutes, to be able to cover as many questions as possible	18:08
mizmo	#info thread on the vision statement on advisory-board list http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-September/009308.html	18:08
jsmith	jds2001: Good question...	18:08
jds2001	but im not sure of a suggestion to fix it :(	18:08
mizmo	common, general, inescapable, omnipresent, permeating, pervading, prevalent, rife, ubiquitous, universal, wall-to-wall, widespread	18:08
rdieter	thesarus-fu	18:08
mizmo	far-reaching, sweeping	18:08
jsmith	jds2001: I too hesitated to use that word, but it's a word that very well describes how we want Fedora to fit into the bigger world. Yes, it's a difficult word to translate, but it's also a very specific word	18:08
mizmo	wide-ranging, widespread	18:09
jsmith	It's a combination of far-reaching and widespread	18:09
jsmith	In other words, it's not a mile wide and an inch deep	18:09
jsmith	Nor is it a mile deep and an inch wide	18:09
mdomsch	for the germans: in, with, and under ? :-)	18:09
rdieter	I had asked jreznik for suggested alternatives, but seems he didn't come up with any. :(	18:09
jsmith	permeating is as close to pervasive as any of the others, but is difficult to translate itself :-/	18:10
mdomsch	sorry - protestant/lutheran humor attempt there...	18:10
jsmith	mdomsch: No worries... even if nobody else laughed, I got a kick out of it.	18:11
mizmo	what is the meaning meant in the statement	18:11
jds2001	heh	18:11
mizmo	my interpretation was ubiquitous / widespread	18:11
mizmo	"pervasive: to become spread throughout all parts of: Spring pervaded the air. "	18:11
mizmo	widespread seems to be simpler language with similar meaning	18:12
mizmo	"widespread: spread over or open, or occupying a wide space; distributed over a wide region, or occurring in many places or among many persons or individuals"	18:12
mdomsch	and provides alliteration	18:12
jsmith	It's not as exact, but might be close enough	18:12
* mizmo missing the exactness involved		18:12
* mdomsch can't spell today either		18:12
rdieter	widespread works for me	18:12
jsmith	mdomsch: If we're going for that, I'm sure we could replace "outreach" with something that started with the letter 'c'	18:13
mizmo	wuh-wuh instead of wup-puh	18:13
mdomsch	well, we have 2 options:	18:13
mdomsch	we can keep pervasive, and when we translate to other languages, attempt to find the closest match in each	18:13
mdomsch	or we can use a different word, that might be more easily translated; but I suspect we'll run into the same problem with anything we choose	18:14
rdieter	I'd like to hear from >1 non-native speaker too	18:14
mizmo	rdieter, i think the guy upset about the commas had the same point	18:14
mizmo	even though it only has two commas	18:14
mizmo	his point was that it takes a while to dig into the meaning	18:15
rdieter	ok, then, >2 ? :)	18:15
jds2001	the commas are correct :)	18:15
jsmith	Yes, I placed the commas with care :-)	18:15
rdieter	grammar rocks	18:15
mizmo	yeh the commas are clearly correct, but this dude used them as the reason (albeit likely wrong) he couldn't grok the sentence easily	18:16
mizmo	but i think that can be solved too by listing the series out in bullet points when wiki-fying the statement	18:16
mizmo	that would definitely improve the readability imho	18:16
* jds2001 didnt find anything saying he couldnt grok it		18:16
jds2001	just asking if it was needed	18:16
mizmo	jds2001, i had a discussion with him off-list	18:16
jds2001	ahhhh	18:16
jsmith	mizmo: I like the idea of bullets	18:16
rdieter	and possibly the background, intent behind each of those points, as well ? (or not?)	18:17
ctyler	in an expansion or explanation, sure	18:17
jds2001	we should keep spot's feedback in mind - this should fit in a tweet :)	18:17
jds2001	but i think we're over that	18:18
rdieter	cool, cause I had to explain that on several occasions to folks who ended up with different/interesting interpretations, than what was the intention	18:18
mizmo	extra explanation is probably cool but just somewhere else, kind of how individual points in the mission statement is explained on the overview page further down	18:18
mizmo	not embedded	18:18
jsmith	Right... I don't have a problem explaining the meaning and intention on a wiki page, but the vision statement itself should be concise	18:18
rdieter	nod, agreed.	18:18
jsmith	In the absence of any other feedback on the word "pervasive", I'm gonna put my vote in the "leave it in there" column	18:19
mdomsch	jds2001: we're a bit over a tweet, yes	18:19
mizmo	i think pervasive is the most 'SAT vocabularly' word in the statement, i dont really see any of the others being potentially problematic	18:19
mizmo	i think widespread is a better word	18:19
ctyler	jsmith: +1 to leaving pervasive in there	18:19
mdomsch	pervasive++	18:20
mizmo	1	18:20
ctyler	mizmo: pervasive is perhaps broader than widespread -- pervasive means soaking through everything, not just 'common'	18:20
jsmith	mizmo: The best way I can explain it is with a peanut-butter sandwich... I see peanut butter widespread on the bread, but not pervasive throughout the sandwich	18:20
* jds2001 is on the fence :)		18:20
mizmo	sounds like split ends to me	18:21
mizmo	its a vision statement, not a literary opus	18:21
jsmith	Point well taken	18:21
rdieter	I think I'm with mizmo here, the clarity has to take precedence	18:21
rdieter	1	18:21
mizmo	if people have to pull out a dictionary, they wont, then the clarified meaning is completely lost not just partially	18:21
stickster	FWIW, I like 'widespread.' The vision statement should be simple *and* concise.	18:22
stickster	I think it's easy for those of us who love language and writing to sometimes love a word for its connotation and distinction, but it may not help Joe Average (or even Joe Above-average) understand us better :-)	18:22
mdomsch	stickster: are we past your 'concise' limit too?	18:22
mizmo	jane like peanut butter. ugh ugh.	18:23
rdieter	stickster: +1 (well said, better than what I was drumming up)	18:23
stickster	mdomsch: No, I really like it.	18:23
stickster	mizmo: :-D	18:23
* jsmith changes his vote to a definitive +0		18:23
mdomsch	i'm fine with widespread	18:23
jsmith	Alright... what other parts of the vision statement do we want to discuss	18:24
* jds2001 -1 to pervasive now :)		18:24
jsmith	(I mean -- if this is the most contentious piece, then we've done something right, correct?)	18:24
jds2001	rdieter: do keep in mind that stickster is....verbose :D	18:24
stickster	loquacious	18:24
stickster	bombastic	18:24
* jsmith would almost add "full of hot air" if he weren't sitting right next to stickster at this moment		18:24
rdieter	stickster is on a roll, go go	18:24
mdomsch	/both/d ?	18:25
* stickster punches jsmith		18:25
jsmith	Ouch!	18:25
jsmith	stickster: I said "almost"	18:25
stickster	Did I mention pugnacious?	18:25
stickster	<eof>	18:25
mizmo	vainglorious?	18:25
mdomsch	I think it flows fine w/o the word 'both' in there	18:25
mizmo	vociferous	18:25
rdieter	mizmo for the win	18:26
mizmo	supercajifragilisticexpialladocious	18:26
jds2001	does anyone have anything else????	18:26
jsmith	OK, s/pervasive/widespread/ and s/ both//	18:26
rdieter	mdomsch: good catch, I agree	18:26
jsmith	(Are we under 140 chars yet?)	18:27
rdieter	one more step towards tweetability	18:27
mizmo	"The Fedora Project creates a world in which free and open culture is welcoming and widespread, collaboration and outreach are the norm, and people are empowered to control their own content and devices."	18:27
mizmo	62 characters over	18:27
mdomsch	can we tighten up the second clause?	18:28
rdieter	still way over	18:28
stickster	#idea strike "and outreach are" and replace with "is"	18:28
jsmith	mdomsch: We accept patches :-) How would you suggest we tighten it up?	18:28
mizmo	this is only 33 over "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming and widespread, collaboration and outreach are the norm, and people control their own content and devices."	18:28
jds2001	s/are empowered to//	18:28
stickster	#idea strike "are empowered to"	18:28
walters	what was the rationale for "and outreach"?	18:28
ctyler	Concise is one thing, terse is another; not sure twitter is the right ruler to measure by.	18:28
stickster	jds2001: +1	18:28
jsmith	mdomsch: That was the original idea, until we talked about it on Monday"	18:28
rdieter	outread => attract new users	18:28
mdomsch	outreach being an active verb	18:28
rdieter	outreach...	18:29
mizmo	is outreach redundant with welcoming	18:29
stickster	mizmo: +1	18:29
mizmo	this is 19 over "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming and widespread, collaboration is the norm, and people control their own content and devices."	18:29
walters	i like that one better	18:29
mizmo	hehe this is 17 over "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, collaboration is the norm, and people control their own content and devices."	18:29
mizmo	& <= ftw!	18:29
walters	heh, that's cheating	18:30
stickster	haha	18:30
ctyler	s/own// ?	18:30
mizmo	13 over "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, collaboration is the norm, and people control their content and devices."	18:30
rdieter	I personally would prefer including outreach and drop welcoming, but that doesn't help us much size-wise, and I won't push it if I'm the only one that feels that way	18:30
mizmo	but! twin w's!	18:30
mizmo	ww	18:30
jsmith	I'd rather have something that's better worded and slightly over the limit, rather than 140 characters and too vague.	18:30
ctyler	rdieter: +1	18:30
mdomsch	jsmith: +1	18:30
mizmo	i think welcoming is more people-centric though	18:31
mizmo	you can outreach to things that aren't people	18:31
ctyler	jsmith: Agreed, clarity over twitter	18:31
jds2001	jsmith: +1, but we should come up with a "twitter version"	18:31
mdomsch	rdieter: +1	18:31
mizmo	and outreach's meaning is sometimes for 'beating others'	18:31
mizmo	13 over is close enough no	18:31
rdieter	seems odd to have to say the open/free culture is welcoming ... to me that's almost 'by definition'	18:31
mizmo	rdieter, one would think! did you see the blog post i made today heh	18:31
mdomsch	well, there's the active verb outreach, and there's the (IMHO more) passive verb welcoming	18:31
ctyler	rdieter: should be but isn't necessarily	18:31
stickster	mizmo: why welcome wordiness? words wound when wielded... uh, wecklessly	18:31
jsmith	!Fedora hearts !FIAF, collaboration, and peeps in control	18:31
rdieter	mizmo: yeah (awesome by the way), ok, that's a different line of thinking than what I had in mind... but if that's what it takes to cover the bases, I'm fine with it	18:32
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/blog/drawings/cookies/um-how.png	18:32
* ctyler still reads !Fedora as "not Fedora"		18:32
mdomsch	I'd say we've been welcoming, but haven't done as much outreach - and part of the goal is to get more active on outreach	18:32
mizmo	that diagram	18:32
mizmo	includes "outreach" but does not include "welcoming" http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/blog/drawings/cookies/um-how.png	18:32
mizmo	stickster, whoah, way!	18:33
stickster	mizmo: You win the cookie	18:33
mdomsch	doh	18:33
mizmo	mdomsch, i kinda think the opposite	18:33
stickster	rdieter: You make a good point. free/open culture == "collaboration".	18:33
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/blog/drawings/cookies/istuff.png <= welcoming	18:33
ctyler	stickster: but it's worth reiterating, imho	18:33
stickster	What's currently the accepted version again?	18:34
jsmith	There's more to open/free culture than just collaboration	18:34
jsmith	(we're more than just crowdsourcing)	18:34
mizmo	pre-twitterification	18:34
mizmo	" "The Fedora Project creates a world in which free and open culture is welcoming and widespread, collaboration and outreach are the norm, and people are empowered to control their own content and devices.""	18:34
mizmo	that's 60+ chars over	18:34
ctyler	Enough with the 'wc -c' already :-)	18:35
stickster	jsmith: Yeah, I should have said "contains" not "=="	18:35
stickster	In any case...	18:35
mizmo	i think the length is a good indicator of its simplicity or lack thereof *shrug*	18:35
ctyler	Actually, I think there's a lot of open that is not welcoming or collaborative. It may be broken open, but it's still out there. I think we want to fix that.	18:36
stickster	The pre-twitter version seems pretty good to me.	18:36
mizmo	a swap on the shortest-form: "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, outreach is the norm, and people control their content and devices."	18:36
mdomsch	I concede mizmo's point on outreach, would be open to s/ and outreach are/ is/	18:36
jsmith	"outreach is the norm" doesn't work for me	18:37
mizmo	a swap on the shortest-form: "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, collaboration is the norm, and people control their content and devices."	18:37
mizmo	(swap back)	18:37
jsmith	I want both collaboration and outreach	18:37
mdomsch	jsmith: you don't like "is the norm" ?	18:38
mdomsch	I'm having a hard time with that phrase	18:38
mizmo	yeh is the norm of what	18:38
jsmith	that collaboration and outreach are the norm, rather than being an odd way of doing things	18:39
mizmo	a swap on the shortest-form: "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, collaboration is commonplace, and people control their content and devices."	18:39
mizmo	ww! cc! wee	18:39
mdomsch	to me, outreach becomes the natural result of enthusiasm	18:39
jsmith	Right now, people still look at me funny when I try to explain that we get lots of people to collaborate on building free software	18:39
mdomsch	exciting even	18:40
mdomsch	how can we add excitement?	18:40
stickster	mizmo: I like that	18:40
jds2001	mizmo: +1	18:40
mizmo	mdomsch, add excitement to the statement?	18:40
stickster	mizmo: 'an exciting world'?	18:41
jsmith	"The Fedora project creates a world where free culture is welcoming, widespread, collaborative, enthusiastic."	18:41
mdomsch	mizmo: yeah, somehow; the sense, at least, that what we're creating is an exciting world, rather than simply a world of drudgery that we have to advertise to get people interested in	18:41
jds2001	who's to say the world is exciting?	18:41
mizmo	well i mean	18:41
mizmo	i think making it exciting is all in the treatment	18:41
ctyler	pervasive and norm mean that it's *the* way things are done; widespread doesn't seem to convey that. Is there a simple, stronger alternative to widespread?	18:41
mizmo	you take that statement, lay it out nice and cleanly, have photos and illustrations showing what it can do, will generate a lot more excitement than any turn of phrase imho	18:41
stickster	ctyler: "free culture welcomes people everywhere"	18:41
mizmo	but then again im a designer :)	18:41
* jsmith still likes pervasive, but it's too highbrow it seems		18:42
mdomsch	indeed	18:42
stickster	jsmith: Put away your monocle, thanks	18:42
stickster	Mr. Peanut	18:42
ctyler	s/people everywhere/everyone/ ?	18:42
mizmo	we be simple folk	18:42
mizmo	yessum	18:42
* stickster and jsmith are laughing here but you can't hear us. All in good fun!		18:42
ctyler	simple folk eating peanut butter :-)	18:43
mizmo	ungh ungh	18:43
ctyler	collaboratively making sandwiches	18:43
jsmith	OK folks... we're about 45 minutes in... are we making progress, or just going 'round in circles?	18:43
mizmo	"The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming & widespread, collaboration is commonplace, and people control their content and devices."  ?	18:43
jsmith	"The Fedora Board creates a world where people work collaboratively, but finally agree on a vision statement."	18:43
jds2001	:	18:43
stickster	touche!	18:43
jds2001	:)	18:44
mdomsch	doh	18:44
stickster	mizmo: fwiw, I think that vision statement is fairly concise and also kind of elegant.	18:44
stickster	Might be a case of perfect being the enemy of the good :-)	18:44
rdieter	mizmo: I like that, a good improvement	18:45
mdomsch	worksforme	18:45
jsmith	Aye... I don't think we're anywhere close to "good vs. bad" here... simply "good, better, best"	18:45
* stickster does think strike the '&' for 'and' thought		18:45
stickster	*though	18:45
* jsmith agrees w/ stickster on that one		18:45
mizmo	its only 15 over	18:45
ctyler	stickster++	18:45
* jds2001 too		18:45
mizmo	what! no &amp;	18:45
mizmo	hehe	18:45
mizmo	jk	18:46
stickster	mizmo: I think we should use ♥ to test all utf16 delivery mechanisms	18:46
rdieter	I suppose we could nix the "The Fedora Project creates a world where ..." part at times to make it tweetable	18:46
rdieter	the stuff after that is the juicy part	18:46
stickster	rdieter: Precisely. "Our vision: ____"	18:46
mdomsch	rdieter: Fedora: where free culture...	18:46
rdieter	mdomsch: ooh. neat.	18:47
mizmo	"The Fedora Project creates a world where:	18:47
mizmo	* free culture is welcoming and widespread	18:47
mizmo	* collaboration is commonplace	18:47
mizmo	* people control their content and devices	18:47
mizmo	(just to see how it looks bulleted)	18:47
* jsmith likes it		18:47
mdomsch	FedoraWorld: where...	18:47
stickster	mdomsch: nice ;-)	18:48
mizmo	#fedora: where... weeheehee	18:48
ctyler	Looks good.	18:48
* jds2001 likes		18:48
stickster	See, we can all be Gustave Flaubert for a day ;-)	18:48
jsmith	I say we get the vision statement nailed down, then work on the identi.ca version	18:48
rdieter	jsmith: good call, yes	18:49
mdomsch	we need a 'c' word for devices	18:49
jsmith	It's ten minutes before the hour.	18:49
mdomsch	carryons, ...	18:49
jsmith	or "data" instead of "content"	18:49
mdomsch	ah yes	18:49
jsmith	(althought content > data)	18:49
mizmo	content and computing devices	18:50
mizmo	hehe	18:50
rdieter	haven't had much non-board feedback or comment (outside of stickster, but he doesn't count). people's, we need to hear what you think.	18:50
stickster	rdieter: Hey, that's darn rude ;-)	18:50
rdieter	stickster: you're pratically still a board member... feel better/	18:51
rdieter	?	18:51
jsmith	#info Now's your chance to have your say!	18:51
* stickster totally wants to hear from other peeps and is just here to serve the pretzels and pour the beverages		18:51
* rdieter snags some munchies		18:51
ctyler	U U U U	18:51
jsmith	stickster: Do you have any of those jalepeño pretzels, with some cheese sauce, and a tall lemonade?	18:51
* jds2001 orders beer		18:52
jsmith	OK, let's try to wrap up on time here	18:53
jsmith	Are we all in agreement on the latest version?	18:54
rdieter	yes	18:54
jds2001	yep	18:54
jds2001	watch the mailing list this weekend, quick vote on Monday :)	18:54
jsmith	Works for me.	18:55
mdomsch	yep	18:55
ctyler	yes	18:56
jsmith	Any objections?	18:57
mizmo	none here	18:58
mizmo	1	18:58
mizmo	yay	18:58
mizmo	can we have a party after the vote	18:58
rdieter	party++	18:58
jsmith	mizmo: You bring the donuts, and I'll bring the milk	18:58
mizmo	woo	18:59
jsmith	#agreed "The Fedora Project creates a world where free culture is welcoming and widespread, collaboration is commonplace, and people control their content and devices."	18:59
smooge	oh wait	18:59
smooge	crap	18:59
* jsmith waits		18:59
smooge	the meeting is over isnt it	18:59
jsmith	smooge: Nope... just "almost" over	19:00
jsmith	smooge: We're still taking input... what's up?	19:00
smooge	ok I am here. I have no input.. but as a board member I should be here for the vote correct	19:00
jds2001	jsmith: i was thinking something more than donuts and milk :D	19:00
jsmith	(we can undo the #agreed if you're not in agreement)	19:00
jsmith	smooge: The official vote is on Monday	19:00
smooge	oh ok	19:01
smooge	I have nothing I can say at the moment.	19:01
jsmith	smooge: If you have something between now and Monday, bring it up on the mailing list, please.	19:01
stickster	jsmith: So once this is in place, what happens then?	19:02
jsmith	stickster: Well, it's part of my "master plan"	19:02
* rdieter thought party was next (sorry, couldn't help it)		19:02
jsmith	Now that you brought it up, I'll have to share my secret plan!	19:02
* ctyler thought so too		19:02
jsmith	First of all, make sure that the Board is doing things according to that vision.	19:03
jsmith	Second, take the vision to the other groups (FAMSCo, FESCo, SIGs, etc.), and make sure they're on board	19:03
jsmith	(Not that I think they won't be, but we owe them the courtesy)	19:03
ctyler	Third, Profit! (oops, old Slashdot habit there)	19:04
jsmith	From then, I'd like to take a step back and take a holistic look at Fedora (the distro) through the lens of this vision.	19:04
jsmith	Start talking about things we can do to the bits and bytes to make sure they are in line with the vision.	19:04
jsmith	Obviously, there are parts of the vision statement that pertain more to the community at large than to the bits and bytes	19:05
jsmith	and we've got some work to do there	19:05
jsmith	rdieter is working on a charter for a Community Working Group, for example, to explore how we can work better as a community	19:05
stickster	So that example would address the "welcoming" portion of the vision. I get it.	19:06
jsmith	Aye :-)	19:06
mizmo	i think we should work with openhatch too in order to welcome new contributors	19:06
jds2001	OPENHATCH?	19:07
jds2001	oops	19:07
mizmo	hehe	19:07
jsmith	openhatch is one example of a group we can work with... there are probably dozens of others	19:07
mizmo	http://openhatch.org/	19:07
jsmith	jds2001: CAPS LOCK FRIDAY!	19:07
ctyler	http://openhatch.org/	19:07
* stickster thinks that the question wasn't just for himself but for people who are watching this meeting but can't necessarily be here. Thanks for talking about the next steps!		19:07
mizmo	asheesh and dpic are looking at implementing the fedora design team bounty system on there, for any project	19:08
jds2001	nice!	19:08
jsmith	OK, anything else?	19:09
smooge	I am ok with things..	19:09
jsmith	Shall we wrap things up for now?	19:09
jsmith	#topic Any other business	19:09
jsmith	Going once...	19:10
jsmith	Going twice...	19:10
jsmith	Sold to the bidder on the back row with the funny hat!	19:11
stickster	hey now	19:11
jsmith	Thanks again everyone for your feedback and hard work. I really appreciate it.	19:11
jsmith	#endmeeting	19:11

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