Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090128

Sparks	<meeting id="Docs team">	14:00
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting		14:00
* stickster here		14:00
* quaid is 50% here as Karsten 'quaid' Wade		14:00
* jjmcd here		14:00
* Sparks here		14:00
* ke4qqq is here		14:00
Sparks	Meeting agenda: DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_28_January_2008	14:01
-!- zk-Simon [n=public@nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0.fitz.cam.ac.uk] has joined #fedora-meeting		14:01
* laubersm here		14:01
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting - Status on leadership (re)fresh		14:02
Sparks	Okay, I'm going to turn this over to quaid before he has to leave	14:02
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quaid	yeah, I'm in a meeting call right now	14:02
quaid	and have 1/2 attention	14:02
-!- jsmith-lunch [n=nnnjsmit@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined #fedora-meeting		14:02
quaid	so will be fast as I can	14:02
quaid	first, thanks Sparks for taking the meeting today.	14:02
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quaid	second, it's clear on the list to me that we can reach consensus on leadership stuff with a scheme I have in mind.	14:03
quaid	1. I'd like to appoint Sparks to be Docs Lead for the (rest of) F11; his willingness and coordinating/organizing are clear all ready, and he	14:03
is interested and able.
quaid	2. We can then have an election just after F11, including deciding how long we want a leader to server (one or two releases)	14:04
quaid	3. There are a *ton* of you who are already leaders here and could clearly or likely lead this project; that is rather unusual, and awe	14:04
inspiring to me.
quaid	in fact, more current contributors are capable of leading this team for a release than not, which is cool.	14:05
quaid	4. Then I can be a good Lt., help the transition, and help with making future leadership easier, as well as future contributing (hand-in-hand	14:05
problem)
quaid	so, even if I haven't talked with you about being in the smaller group of those who actively lead ...	14:05
quaid	I will :)	14:06
jsmith	+1 on the nomination	14:06
quaid	and I'll encourage each of you to continue in that mode -- show while doing	14:06
Sparks	+1 on term limits :)	14:06
quaid	:D	14:06
stickster	+1 on the nomination	14:06
* laubersm tags Sparks		14:06
jjmcd	+1	14:06
ke4qqq	+1 for sparks	14:06
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* stickster will be around to be a Lt. Lt. too		14:07
quaid	I'd also especially like to ask you all to really step up in helping make Sparks successful	14:07
stickster	+2.	14:07
quaid	(not that you aren't ...)	14:07
quaid	which means e.g. more 6s fun from jjmcd and jsmith  :)	14:07
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Sparks	:)	14:07
jjmcd	:-)	14:07
quaid	in case it's not obvious, it's the mix of skills, personality, and hard work ethics that makes the team work best.	14:07
quaid	and this is truly the strongest group of docs contributors that Fedora has yet seen, IMNSHO.	14:08
quaid	one remaining item is the F11 release notes; I'm concerned about overloading Sparks	14:08
quaid	and would suggest we consider taking ryanlerch up on his offer;	14:08
* jsmith puts away his (non-existant) campaign posters and buckles down for a great release (and release-notes!) for F11		14:08
quaid	he just got off a big relnotes release and is ready to go and available, afaict	14:08
Sparks	+1 to ryanlerch	14:09
quaid	that would help e.g. jjmcd get more comfortable with how the relnotes run, so he can do it for F12	14:09
ke4qqq	+1	14:09
jsmith	+1 to ryanlerch as well	14:09
jsmith	+1 to jjmcd being his shadow	14:09
jjmcd	Sounds good to me	14:09
laubersm	+1	14:09
quaid	nice!	14:10
* quaid loves the smell of consensus in the morning ...		14:10
quaid	it's the smell of community!	14:10
jsmith	quaid: (You're on a roll... no disagreement from anyone!)	14:10
stickster	I think the Relnotes definitely need a separate Someone. +1.	14:10
quaid	are there any lagging leadership issues?	14:10
jjmcd	I notice ryanlerch isn't here to defend himself	14:10
quaid	I'll do a formal email to the list after the meeting, etc.	14:10
quaid	jjmcd: heh	14:10
ke4qqq	someone bring up the controversial stuff before we slip out of consensus :)	14:10
quaid	jjmcd: I sent him email asking him to come by #fedora-docs this afternoon to discuss	14:10
quaid	after I sort-of blew him off on list trying to keep the balance.	14:10
Sparks	Anymore discussion?	14:11
quaid	ok, I'm done then; and would love to see everyone figure out the CMS discussion _without_ having to explain my own thinking again; that's	14:11
getting boring to y'all
* jjmcd is beginning to develop an opinion on that, that's dangerous		14:12
* zk-Simon is here in case of questions		14:12
Sparks	Okay, well, thanks for the support and as my first order of business...	14:12
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting - CMS Plan		14:12
Sparks	I'll change the topic.	14:12
stickster	heh	14:12
stickster	+1! The crowd goes wild!	14:12
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Sparks	So today has been an interesting day for CMS discussions.	14:13
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Sparks	Was anyone not around #f-docs for the conversation?	14:13
* jjmcd caught much of it, think I came in the middle, but I figured out hwere it eas headed		14:13
stickster	It was full of vim and vinegar	14:14
* laubersm thinks "which one?" and runs		14:14
stickster	Especially since I know jsmith likes vim.	14:14
jjmcd	ewwwww	14:14
Sparks	jsmith: I'd like to get your input about the CMS solution discussion, please.	14:14
stickster	No one is full of Emacs and vinegar, after all.	14:14
jsmith	stickster: Amen!	14:14
quaid	stickster: only a pickle	14:14
stickster	quaid: Oho! You win, good sirrah.	14:14
jsmith	Sparks: I'm on the phone right this second, but I'm now in general agreement with the proposals at hand.	14:15
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Sparks	Okay, does anyone have any concerns about standing up a CMS solution?	14:15
ke4qqq	so at the risk of pushing ahead - I think we should go with Zikula - they are the only planA solution	14:15
ke4qqq	and they seem to meet the requirements technically	14:16
Sparks	ke4qqq: I know Word Press was interviewed. I haven't felt much energy from them, though.	14:16
jjmcd	We got something that seems to meet the reqts and someone willing to chop off the chicken's head, so where's the problem	14:16
ke4qqq	and I think if we decide to press ahead that I am the constraint	14:16
ke4qqq	jjmcd: exactly!	14:16
stickster	Has anyone asked the responsible parties for Legal, PackagingGuidelines, etc. about their thoughts? Not sure that's a requirement.	14:16
zk-Simon	If anyone has reservations, I would like to hear them. Either to put them straight or alternatively to make sure I put specific focus on	14:16
their concerns as we move forward
Sparks	stickster: Good point.	14:16
quaid	their requirement was to not have to work *harder*	14:17
quaid	and spot said he trusted us to not mess them up, iirc	14:17
Sparks	How about this, let's vote on Zikula pending no major problems from the other areas.	14:17
quaid	zikula++	14:17
stickster	Which I think we can guarantee. Zikula has editing capabilities on par with MW>	14:17
ke4qqq	yep	14:17
ke4qqq	+1 for zikula	14:18
laubersm	+1 for taking the next step	14:18
Sparks	+1 for Zikula	14:18
jjmcd	+	14:18
stickster	+1	14:19
zk-Simon	Ok, well that seems positive	14:19
Sparks	That sounds like a pass to me.	14:19
zk-Simon	Next step? What do you want from me?	14:19
Sparks	I'll write it up this afternoon and make sure we have the support from others.	14:20
ke4qqq	next step is packaging iirc, and I think that is still on my plate	14:20
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Sparks	zk-Simon: If you don't mind being on hand today and tomorrow for any questions from other groups.	14:20
* ke4qqq is fail for not already having it done		14:20
zk-Simon	It just so happens we have a RPM build for Zikula as of a couple of days ago	14:20
Sparks	Yes, packaging is high priority	14:20
ke4qqq	zk-Simon: Link?	14:20
jjmcd	Ohhh, that was my only concern, would be nice to see it packaged	14:20
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ke4qqq	yeah for us to use it, it must live in fedora	14:21
quaid	we should be able to start playing on the publictest instance even without the package	14:21
zk-Simon	Sparks: No link, I'd ahve to upload it somewhere (in my email inbox I think)	14:21
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Sparks	zk-Simon: Get with ke4qqq on that.	14:21
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quaid	so for zk-Simon that means applying for sysadmin and sysadmin-test with anyone from zikula.org who is helping	14:21
ke4qqq	zk-Simon: SRPM and spec file please - feel free to send it to the list or me privately	14:21
quaid	zk-Simon: those are FAS groups	14:21
quaid	mmcgrath can tell us if he wants to make a new sysadmin-cms ...	14:22
Sparks	ke4qqq: Can you help zk-Simon with getting FAS accounts squared away?	14:22
zk-Simon	ok. Have to hold my hand a little here since I don't know your processess	14:22
ke4qqq	Sparks: yep - we'll take care of it after the meeting	14:22
Sparks	ke4qqq: Thank you	14:22
ke4qqq	np	14:22
Sparks	Anything else on the CMS?	14:23
zk-Simon	I'll be around for as long as necessary tomorrow, but I'm out for a couple of hours at least from the end of the meeting	14:23
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* stickster is happy to see such verve and vigor in the Docs meeting again :-)		14:24
ke4qqq	zk-Simon: ok - I am around quite a bit, just ping me when you have some time	14:24
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting - Status on Release Notes document		14:24
Sparks	I know we are going to have to do some switching around on this...	14:25
Sparks	I know we need beat writers for various subjects.	14:25
Sparks	Does anyone have any questions on this? I should be better prepared next week.	14:26
ke4qqq	do we have a list of what beats have no writers?	14:26
Sparks	ke4qqq: Yes...	14:26
* Sparks goes hunting for the link		14:26
Sparks	Documentation_Beats	14:26
Sparks	All 48 of them (plus or minus)	14:27
Sparks	The page still needs some cleaning up.	14:27
Sparks	I sent out an email to everyone that was listed from F10. If they were continueing on then they removed the "*" from beside their name.	14:27
ke4qqq	so - can we delegate that out 'beat writer hunting' now?	14:27
Sparks	But there are a lot of open spots that could use some love	14:28
Sparks	ke4qqq: sure	14:28
stickster	Makes sense to move on to finding new writers.	14:28
Sparks	stickster: :1	14:28
Sparks	+1	14:28
Sparks	Yeah, we are WAY behind on this.	14:28
stickster	It's not that bad, I don't think	14:29
stickster	But it wouldn't hurt to start contacting people responsible for packages that are central to the beat	14:29
Sparks	We have had quite a few people sign up for slots in the past week which is really good.	14:29
stickster	i.e. fedora-kernel-list, or the virt list, or...	14:29
stickster	Typically those developers do start devoting more time post-Beta	14:29
Sparks	stickster: Absolutely.	14:29
stickster	But it's incumbent upon us to... keep them from forgetting ;-)	14:30
jjmcd	Some of the major devtools came up as new beats. Not sure that e.g. Emacs needs its own beat, but most of those I expect to do	14:30
stickster	jjmcd: They're coming up as new beats because they're transcluded pages	14:30
jjmcd	ahhh yeah, you mentioned how you like that	14:31
* stickster loathes transcludes in the relnotes beats... headaches!		14:31
Sparks	yeah	14:31
stickster	I think it would be sensible to provide a key for people to know where to file their notes on "Package XYZ"	14:31
jjmcd	Some may make sense, tho. The Haskell group seems pretty active, actually, might be good to recruit someone there	14:31
stickster	Then kill the transcludes	14:31
quaid	+1 to death of transcludes	14:32
Sparks	+1	14:32
quaid	they aren't needed	14:32
stickster	Every time we try to be clever, we generally out-clever ourselves :-D	14:32
quaid	you said it!	14:32
danielsmw	lol	14:33
stickster	If Ian had been around he'd have slapped sense into us	14:33
Sparks	Well, he can now	14:33
ke4qqq	I think he actually prefers setting people on fire :)	14:33
quaid	with a sharp fork to the eyes first	14:33
Sparks	jjmcd: Do you want to start beating the drum on the... beats?	14:33
jjmcd	Sure 'nuff	14:34
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Sparks	jjmcd: Okay, let me know if you need anything. Targetting the groups that aren't represented would be great.	14:34
Sparks	jjmcd: And maybe something up on planet.	14:34
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* jjmcd gotta get hooked up there yet		14:34
Sparks	jjmcd: I can put something up there in the mean time.  :)	14:35
jjmcd	cool	14:35
Sparks	Anything else?	14:35
ke4qqq	jjmcd: lets work on that after the meeting	14:35
ke4qqq	I owe work for that to danielsmw as well	14:36
jjmcd	roger that	14:36
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting - DocsProject page changes		14:37
Sparks	ianweller is working with G_work to get the wikibot turned loose on the Docs Pages.	14:37
danielsmw	ke4qqq: I'll join in after this then	14:37
stickster	sweet	14:37
Sparks	Apparently there are some problems with the bot so G_work is working on that.	14:38
Sparks	I'll let ianweller talk about it later.	14:38
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - John Poelstra's schedule		14:38
Sparks	ke4qqq: What'd did you come up with from the conference call?	14:39
ke4qqq	so releng is going to handle alpha announcement	14:40
ke4qqq	and keep it	14:40
ke4qqq	'permanently'	14:40
ke4qqq	we are taking Beta and GA release announcements	14:40
quaid	sweet	14:40
Sparks	ke4qqq: That works.	14:41
Sparks	Did everyone get a chance to look at the schedule that John sent out?	14:41
ke4qqq	essentially eof from me - I have more details from the call - but none that relate to docs project.	14:41
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stickster	ke4qqq: Probably worth sending something to the f-docs-list to memorialize	14:42
Sparks	+1	14:42
jjmcd	look at, yes; digest, no	14:42
Sparks	jjmcd: Yeah	14:42
stickster	I'll take the action item to get Poelstra to add the appropriate actions to the docs tasks list	14:42
Sparks	stickster: Thank you	14:42
* jsmith stumbles back from a phone conference		14:42
laubersm	what jjmcd said	14:43
jsmith	(Silly $dayjob... gotta get Fedora or Red Hat to hire me)	14:43
ke4qqq	lol	14:43
Sparks	jsmith: Yeah, me too.	14:43
jjmcd	That whole working for a living thing really sucks,doesn't it	14:43
Sparks	Okay, lets take the week to digest what needs to be done and come back to it next week	14:43
jsmith	jjmcd: I don't mind working... it's the politics that grate on my nerves	14:44
* jjmcd remembers that, but bing a full-time bum is a much sweeter gig		14:44
-!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting - Go over task table		14:44
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Task_table
* quaid done with his meeting		14:44
quaid	that table is a bit out of date, sorry :)	14:44
laubersm	I was noticing that :)	14:44
Sparks	It looks like we need to garden our table!	14:45
quaid	heh	14:45
quaid	I can edit and make changes while we discuss the updates, if you'd like	14:46
quaid	(if you aren't already someone)	14:46
jjmcd	seems like we have a bunch of projects that need to be transcluded in that list	14:46
quaid	items missing from there? yes	14:46
* quaid edits the page now		14:48
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stickster	Yay table gardening :-)	14:49
jjmcd	Looks like some things are dealt with, some need more detail. e.g. now that we have a CMS strategy we need to lay out the steps.	14:49
quaid	for the first item, we are waiting on page renaming, right?	14:49
stickster	more or less, I suppose.	14:49
quaid	how do we feel about our toolchain now?	14:50
quaid	is that still an open task?	14:50
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jjmcd	I suspect it will evolve post-CMS, wonder whether we should stress over it before	14:51
ke4qqq	I thought our focus was to move to publican?	14:51
quaid	s	14:51
ke4qqq	independent of any cms	14:51
quaid	yes	14:51
jjmcd	I assume so	14:51
quaid	but fedora-doc-utils still has some purpose, etc.	14:51
quaid	how about jsmith, stickster, and I discuss next chance on IRC to see where that is and what needs to be done?	14:52
jjmcd	But what is the point of CMS if it doesn't help our processes? Not sure we know exactly HOW yet	14:52
quaid	this toolchain stuff is primarily the work that happens just before the CMS pulls the content in.	14:52
quaid	but it's possible there will be stuff to *add* to the toolchain as part of the CMS work.	14:52
jjmcd	Yes, I gather that. I suspect, tho, some things will want to change	14:53
jjmcd	Yeah, maybe add, maybe subtract	14:53
quaid	ok, I marked it as ongoing	14:53
quaid	and that the three principals for that task will talk and decide what up	14:53
jsmith	Sounds like a plan	14:54
quaid	publican migration ... next chance I might work on that during FAD at SCaLE 7x?	14:54
quaid	there is a branch for migrating the IG	14:54
stickster	I think the f-d-u is a pet project only at this point, so yeah, we'll discuss that offline	14:54
quaid	jsmith: have you looked at that?	14:54
stickster	("offline" == "not here, probably online")	14:54
jsmith	quaid: Got started at FudCON, then ran into problems, haven't picked it back up yet	14:54
jsmith	quaid: May have some time next week, while I'm playing 'Booth Babe' at a conference in Miami	14:55
stickster	jsmith: Apparently ryanlerch did a migration of our release notes that he claims was fairly painles	14:55
stickster	*painless, even	14:55
stickster	I asked him to locate and augment our guidance for doing that procedure on the wiki	14:55
ke4qqq	stickster: did he document the process?	14:55
jsmith	stickster: That's great to hear!	14:55
stickster	ke4qqq: q.v. ^^	14:55
quaid	ok, next item	14:56
quaid	team per document is completed.	14:56
quaid	right?	14:56
ke4qqq	well at least lead	14:56
jjmcd	For some, like RL, recruiting the team will be an ongoing thing, and for all probably some need	14:57
quaid	ok, lead writer id'd still working on team	14:57
quaid	jjmcd: yep, I just put 'ongoing' as deadline :)	14:57
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quaid	ok I'll put the CMS status under that task	14:58
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Sparks	1 minute warning	14:59
quaid	the future of fedora docs stuff is resolved; that was all about 'get a leader who isn't stale in the head'	14:59
quaid	the rest is fine	14:59
stickster	The biggest issue before the group has been cleared, that's a good meeting in my bookk.	14:59
* quaid thinks that is the task list done		14:59
stickster	Sparks: We're here for you, and know you'll do a good job.	14:59
quaid	stickster: heck, we touched upon everything to boot!	14:59
Sparks	:)	14:59
Sparks	stickster: thanks.	14:59
Sparks	Anyone have anything else?	15:00
quaid	let's call it :0	15:00
Sparks	5	15:00
laubersm	Thanks Sparks!!!!	15:00
Sparks	4	15:00
Sparks	3	15:00
Sparks	2	15:00
Sparks	1	15:00
Sparks	Thanks folks!	15:00
jjmcd	And the crowd roars	15:00
Sparks	</meeting>	15:00