Meeting:Websites-Allegheny-20100909

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zodbot	Meeting started Thu Sep 9 23:57:58 2010 UTC. The chair is jadudm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	16:57
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	16:57
jadudm	If I knew more about zodbot, I'd add other chairs. But, I don't.	16:58
-!- rdcrng [~rad@aldenv105.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites		16:58
jadudm	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources	16:58
jadudm	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs	16:58
jadudm	#link Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks	16:58
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mizmo	jadudm, i'd pull up the wiki page on the meeting bot but, the wiki is down :(	17:00
mizmo	which might cause some problems here too	17:00
mizmo	(all the mockups are on it :( )	17:00
jadudm	The wiki page came up for me. Do you mean fp.org/wiki is down?	17:00
mizmo	yeh	17:00
mizmo	the fpo wiki is down	17:00
jadudm	Oops. See what you mean.	17:01
jadudm	Perhaps it was cached.	17:01
jadudm	MURPHY STRIKES.	17:01
khane	dun dun dun	17:01
jadudm	Well, this page is in my browser (Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks)	17:01
kauffmj	lol	17:01
mizmo	so the fedora wiki is in a planned outage and will be out for 2 hours	17:01
jadudm	Should I stick it in an etherpad for us to see for the time being?	17:01
mizmo	they just took it down	17:01
jadudm	Awesome!	17:01
mizmo	:-/	17:01
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mizmo	i think smooge is going to try to bring it back up for us though	17:02
jadudm	IN SOVIET FEDORA, WEBSITE COMES UP FOR YOU	17:02
mizmo	heh	17:02
jadudm	I pasted the website redesign 2009 requirements here: http://openetherpad.org/8CQ0kocfmC	17:03
mizmo	awesome	17:03
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jadudm	I must have caught it just before it went down. So. Would you like a quick intro from who is working with you? Or, shall we take it as a given that there's a group from Allegheny here?	17:04
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mizmo	whatever works!	17:04
jadudm	Would the Allegheny crew mind pasting in a link note with a pointer to your user pages on the rockalypse wiki?	17:05
mizmo	sijis_vacation <= is on vacation, he is our main developer on the project, and Jef (who is normally in here as Schendje) is in the netherlands so he's probably sleeping now :)	17:05
* mizmo <= Máirín Duffy, fedora design team lead & Red Hat interaction designer		17:05
jadudm	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Jadudm	17:05
jadudm	I'm Matt.	17:05
kauffmj	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Kauffmj	17:05
khane	http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Khane	17:05
kauffmj	I'm Jonathan Miller Kauffman.	17:05
khane	I'm Evan	17:05
hildebe	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Hildebe	17:05
hildebe	I'm Eric Hildebrand	17:06
yaworsw	http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw	17:06
jadudm	khane: the #link tells zodbot to include it in the transcript all special-like.	17:06
* johnsog <- #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Johnsog		17:06
khane	ah	17:06
johnsog	I'm Genevieve Johnson	17:06
rdcrng	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rad	17:06
keepd	I'm Jamie Keep: http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Keepd	17:06
mizmo	yaworsw, where is salamanca? im from westerlo ny	17:06
yaworsw	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw	17:07
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jadudm	mfody: just dropping pointers to our user pages on the wiki.	17:07
yaworsw	its about an hour and a half south of buffalo	17:07
mizmo	ah okay	17:07
mizmo	(westerlo is an hour+ south west of albany)	17:07
yaworsw	sorry my wiki page is pretty bare at this point i'll make sure to update it much more soon	17:07
mizmo	id show you my fedora wiki page but... :-p	17:08
yaworsw	complete other side ha	17:08
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mizmo	yeh my bro went to geneseo though so ive driven out your way sort of before	17:08
jadudm	Cool. That serves as an attendance of sorts, too. :)	17:09
mizmo	have any of you heard of / used Fedora before?	17:09
yaworsw	haha	17:09
jadudm	(We'll catch Matt and Sam before we're done.)	17:09
rdcrng	I have been using it for 3 years.	17:09
rosss	I'm here	17:09
mizmo	wow awesome	17:09
kauffmj	i used it once	17:09
keepd	Sams here	17:09
jadudm	#link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rosss	17:09
hildebe	I have it Virtualboxed, yeah	17:09
johnsog	mismo: i have worked with fedora last semester in a class with jadudm	17:09
mizmo	rdcrng, i really like your user page lol	17:09
yaworsw	i only use it in the labs at school but i have ubuntu installed on my desktop... i just need a monitor for it now lol	17:10
rdcrng	Lol, thanks. Don't really know how to make intro pages.	17:10
jadudm	We have a pretty savvy bunch overall, in one form or another.	17:11
rdcrng	And here's my life story kind of pages aren't my favorite.	17:11
jadudm	I'm not 100% sure how best to run the meeting, but we'll learn.	17:11
jadudm	I guess I can say that we're keen to do our first round of learning on usability testing on the Fedora website, and I think we've got a fairly high degree of overlap between our observations and your top ten list.	17:12
mizmo	oooh the wiki is back up i think	17:12
mizmo	oh okay great	17:12
* jadudm does a wiki jig		17:12
mizmo	well can you walk me through your process so far?	17:12
yaworsw	could you post the like the link to the wiki where we put our notes from yesterdays class?	17:12
jadudm	I think I did at the top. I'll repeat them:	17:12
khane	#http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs	17:12
jadudm	Ah, thanks.	17:12
yaworsw	ah that was before i got here	17:13
jadudm	And the top ten from mizmo: Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks	17:13
jadudm	I think we missed focusing on that in our conversation.	17:13
jadudm	Anyone want to take a stab at our process so far?	17:13
mizmo	it looks like you started with a whiteboard discussion - http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources	17:14
khane	we all pretty much agreed on no 1 from mizmo's list, that was a big part of our discussion	17:15
mizmo	and did you look at the existing www.fedoraproject.org?	17:15
jadudm	Right. Our process was first to identify resources that would help us with doing testing, and that morphed into discussion of the fp.o site.	17:15
yaworsw	the redesign looks much better imo	17:15
quaid	BTW, I threw a late and slightly random insight-driven email on the related thread on the mailing list:	17:15
quaid	#link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-September/008564.html	17:16
jadudm	Our next step was to discuss with you needs/directions/focus.	17:16
* quaid leaves that for later and returns to le lurk		17:16
jadudm	Our next step will then be to immerse ourselves in literature regarding testing, and start cutting our teeth.	17:17
mizmo	okay cool	17:17
jadudm	We can easily divide into groups of 3/3/4, having 10 people.	17:17
mizmo	each group tests a chunk of the redesign?	17:17
jadudm	Exactly.	17:17
mizmo	okay cool	17:17
jadudm	(btw, team: dive in wherever/whenever.)	17:18
quaid	jadudm: coincidentally, we need some of that "about testing" material for the "Practical OSS Exploration" textbook - I'd like a feed of your reading/research list as it becomes available.	17:18
keepd	*dives	17:18
mizmo	it's irc, it's supposed to be funny & chatty lol	17:18
khane	well, what are 3 areas that you feel need the most work?	17:18
* quaid hides mizmo's PSP		17:18
mizmo	khane, in the redesigns?	17:18
khane	yea	17:18
mizmo	hmm let me think	17:18
mizmo	so i know the download pages still need a lot of work	17:19
mizmo	we have some folks who are .... picky.... and quite particular	17:19
khane	haha	17:19
khane	well, hopefully we won't dissapoint	17:19
* jadudm looks at rdcrng		17:19
rdcrng	Yeah no kidding, we *almost* had a heated debate about it already.	17:19
mizmo	so we did a big redesign of the download pages in our current template - it was released last may	17:19
mizmo	and i literally got hate mail over the bittorrent link being hard to find :-p	17:20
mizmo	whoops	17:20
khane	we looked at the mockup pretty in-depth	17:20
mizmo	i know there are some cases like that we're probably missing still	17:20
mizmo	i did a blog post on it but haven't revisited those pages yet	17:20
jadudm	do you consider download to be a space where you're happy with the design, or would you like us to put it through the paces?	17:20
mizmo	oh please put it through the paces	17:20
mizmo	we must be missing things	17:20
mizmo	we were pretty aggressive in simplifying it	17:21
mizmo	we ended up doing a patch a couple days after release for bittorrent	17:21
mizmo	i think there are other things folks are sitll a bit ornery about in those pages	17:21
mizmo	so	17:21
mizmo	#1 is the download pages, i think they can still use work	17:21
mizmo	#2 i would say is the visual design	17:21
yaworsw	the more that i look at the features + screenshots page the more i feel like there is an overloading amount of information being thrown at the user	17:22
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mizmo	i think some of the issues with the visual design - well, i'm trying to appeal to fedora's (rather recently defined) target user	17:22
mizmo	yaworsw, (that was going to be my #3 ) :)	17:22
mizmo	User_base	17:22
yaworsw	i like that it gives options to read more for everything but there sure are an aweful lot of options	17:22
mizmo	thats the target user definition	17:22
jadudm	#link User_base	17:22
khane	i think for our purposes we're going to try and see if we can simplify as much as possible	17:23
jadudm	#info target user base for the website redesign	17:23
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mizmo	some folks have given me feedback such that maybe this design is too corporate	17:23
jadudm	khane: or, more specifically, see what kinds of revisions come out of a testing process	17:23
mizmo	(oh ps, for #1, here's the link to the blog post going over the problems with get.fpo)	17:24
smooge	Hi. site should be working better	17:24
mizmo	thanks smooge !!	17:24
jadudm	smooge: that's awesome. thank you!	17:24
jadudm	smooge: our timing for this meeting was Murphy-inspired w.r.t. downtime. Thanks for the help.	17:24
mizmo	i did a blog post really recently about how older versions of the front page's visual design were seen as being too 'corporate'	17:24
keepd	We discussed the idea of the design being too corporate and we were curious what exactly that meant. Is that a bad thing??	17:24
mizmo	http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/ <= you can see the old vs. the new there	17:24
mizmo	well	17:25
mizmo	let me show you something	17:25
mizmo	:) it's going to be funny but maybe slightly inappropriate so i apologize in advance	17:25
mizmo	http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55201	17:25
mizmo	this is some discussion on the latest design (the attempt at being less corporate) from the debian user forums	17:25
mizmo	they are kinda bashing it :)	17:26
mizmo	but keep in mind, look at debian.org to see where they are coming from too	17:26
mizmo	there's a concern i think for authenticity	17:26
mizmo	if the site looks too corporate, there are a few problem	17:26
mizmo	#1 - people might assume fedora is not free (actually if you look at ubuntu.com they have a big ad either on the front or on the download page saying yes, yes it's really free)	17:26
jadudm	Wow.	17:26
jadudm	Do you own fireproof clothing?	17:27
mizmo	hehe	17:27
mizmo	i thought the mockup was hilarious though....	17:27
mizmo	theres a unicorn man or somehting	17:27
mizmo	#2 - if the fedora site looks too corporate, we might lose some of our authenticity - you how indie bands sometimes make it big then they 'sell out' and their music isn't as good either, it's kind of watered down. i think there's a big concern about fedora being perceived that way	17:28
yaworsw	well i think that getting the message out that it is free could be done in the same way ubuntu does it	17:28
yaworsw	say it's free in big bold text	17:28
rdcrng	Well, think that one of the problems of communities like Debian's is that they are almost impregnable by anyone who doesn't consider themselves a computer expert / geek.	17:28
mizmo	#3 - we want people to realize they can dive in and help too. if things look too polished, people might think there's no place for them	17:28
rdcrng	Truth is most people put themselves into the "computer challenged" category	17:29
* quaid notes that the word "free" is overly loaded in this context.		17:29
kauffmj	wow, just like paper prototyping!!!	17:29
mizmo	i dont know if you folks have heard of this, but i've seen it in action and it's true - if you try usability testing using pencil sketches vs polished mockups, people are less willing to be candid about the more polished design	17:29
quaid	how about, "Yes, zero cost!"?	17:29
mizmo	so if you have a more polished website - maybe folks think you don't need help or people to join	17:29
mizmo	quaid, the problem with zero cost is folks who don't want the 'software freedom' message to be lost get a bit upset	17:29
rdcrng	Free refers not only to cost	17:29
jadudm	"a bit" upset	17:29
mizmo	rdcrng, that's 100% true.	17:29
quaid	mizmo: I mean, in reference to the costing confusion	17:30
rdcrng	Free as in liberation from corporate hold over software	17:30
quaid	that you said Ubuntu solved by saying, "yes, it's really free" (iirc)	17:30
mizmo	quaid, oh i know. but that's why it's not a simple solution to do	17:30
mizmo	quaid, they probably care less about that kind of flak than we do	17:30
yaworsw	well i bet the website would lose a lot of it's corporate feel if we simply removed some of the gloss	17:30
rdcrng	agree	17:31
quaid	well, if we say, "It's 100% free. What does that really mean?!?" and link out to the 2 explanations, that might work :P	17:31
rdcrng	the old website has the simplicity	17:31
rdcrng	just needs some navigational improvement	17:31
yaworsw	mizmo, what is your absolute favorite part of the website?	17:31
mizmo	but the current website it also doesnt really explain what fedora is, rdcrng	17:31
jadudm	yaworsw: good question.	17:31
mizmo	yaworsw, the current site or the redesign?	17:31
yaworsw	redesign	17:31
mizmo	hmm	17:32
yaworsw	i suppose you can say your favorite part of the current site too, that wouldn't hurt haha	17:32
mizmo	i think probably my favorite part of the redesign is the slideshow on the front page	17:32
mizmo	right now we don't have a space like that to really highlight the awesome things we do	17:33
mizmo	theres some wiki pages, but i think wikis are a bit intimidating for folks just wanting to learn the basics about waht fedora is and what makes it cool	17:33
mizmo	so i think the slideshow is a good opportunity to get lots of great content out there - in a scoped-out, limited space so it doesn't overrun the website or overcrowd it either	17:33
yaworsw	ahh there is a website i know of that does a slideshow thing that looks really nice but i can't think of the url	17:34
hildebe	what are the subjects of the other slides?	17:34
mizmo	my favorite part of the current website - well, it's nice that it's slim in size and fast-loading, but that's been a constraint that's caused it to kind of suck in a lot of other ways	17:34
mizmo	hildebe, we haven't fleshed them all out yet, but we have some samples, one sec	17:34
jadudm	we'll all have fiber soon, so speed won't be an issue.	17:34
mizmo	hildebe, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign/Mockups/Www.fpo#Slideshow_Banners	17:35
mizmo	hildebe, those sample slides use an earlier template	17:35
yaworsw	anyway where i was going with that question is i read a book on creativity professor jadud gave me, in the book there was a portion about a web designer. he said whenever he would get stuck designing a website we would remove his favorite part of the website and then try to move forward from there	17:35
mizmo	but we were thinking maybe 5-6 slides: 1 to explain what fedora is, 1 to talk about our community, and 3 or 4 to highlight some interesting features	17:35
mizmo	yaworsw, heh thats an intriguing idea	17:35
yaworsw	is matt R here?	17:36
jadudm	He had a meeting that he was afraid would run into the chat.	17:36
rdcrng	hard to accept idea :D	17:36
jadudm	he might not be.	17:36
yaworsw	ah, he had some comments about the slideshow	17:37
hildebe	I really think the slideshow is a great idea considering the target user, I don't think i could get behind the suggestion of removing it...	17:37
jadudm	so, I'm going to bring us back around to our question.	17:37
mizmo	rdcrng, i get where its coming from though. eg when i was designing the newer features mockup (i think the one in the wiki is a bit old at this point), i actually lost my source file and had to start from scratch for most of it, and i think it came out better for it	17:37
jadudm	which is: what are the aspects of the site we're going to begin by testing.	17:37
jadudm	it sounds like download is clearly an issue, and one of our teams should focus on that.	17:37
khane	i say features as well	17:38
jadudm	(we might try and cycle quickly through a couple of things, so we may hit more than 3 things... we're all experimenting with this process here)	17:38
jadudm	khane: say a bit more?	17:38
* keepd Points that the Fedora Wiki down		17:38
mizmo	well	17:38
khane	it may not need as much work, but its important that we see what needs to be done	17:38
yaworsw	hildebe: i agree but perhaps if we consider removing it we can find a better way to include that information. if we decide to remove it that does not mean that we can't decide to put it back	17:38
mizmo	if i had to pick three things to test	17:38
mizmo	that'd be most helpful at this point	17:38
mizmo	i think probably they'd be	17:38
mizmo	1) the front page	17:38
mizmo	2) the downloads section of pages	17:38
mizmo	3) the community / join page	17:38
mizmo	i think the features one is important to test too	17:39
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mizmo	but its got a bit less meat to it i think	17:39
jadudm	ok	17:39
mizmo	our #1 task for users is downloading fedora and trying it out	17:39
mizmo	our #2 getting access to support (but that design isn't ready yet :( )	17:39
mizmo	#3 what is fedora, what's it about <= good for front page testing	17:39
jadudm	that was where I was going to suggest we ask some questions -- what tasks are we aiming to support	17:40
mizmo	#4 - join fedora <= community/join page	17:40
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jadudm	So, had you seen our revised question list?	17:42
rosss	what needs refining in the community page?	17:42
jadudm	http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs	17:42
jadudm	rosss: good question.	17:42
mizmo	rosss, well looking at the mock -	17:43
khane	probably something that expresses that fp would like help from anyone, and that anyone can provide useful information	17:43
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jadudm	Oh, booger. There goes our logs.	17:43
jadudm	I'll pull them from my client.	17:43
keepd	Were DOOMED Zodbot down	17:43
khane	oh noes!	17:43
mizmo	our goal is for folks to read this page and learn that fedora's put together by a community, and for them to understand how they can help out, and consider helping out	17:43
mizmo	ugh	17:43
yaworsw	maybe just moving that blue thing to the top of the page would help with that	17:43
mizmo	yaworsw, well let me tell you why we put it on the bottom hehe	17:44
yaworsw	basically saying there are tons of things people can do to contribute, do you fit into one of these categories?	17:44
yaworsw	allrighty	17:44
mizmo	we felt like it'd be rude or abrupt to tell folks to pick a task and start working on fedora first thing	17:44
mizmo	so we thought maybe some enticement to want to join before that might be good	17:45
mizmo	but im not sure we fulfilled that either yet :(	17:45
jadudm	mizmo: in the world of libraries, there's a classic tension between "search" and "browse" functionality.	17:45
yaworsw	yeah that makes sense	17:45
mizmo	it may not come off that way at all, though	17:45
keepd	I'm not sure it would rude, I think it would pull people into the I can contribute mindset. At least that is what it is for me	17:45
mizmo	for a lot of these things,	17:46
keepd	be**	17:46
mizmo	we'll take a guess, mock it up, and ask around	17:46
jadudm	it might be that, in our exploration of the community space, we can test multiple scenarios with some people, and see if we can help answer more questions about how best to use that space.	17:46
mizmo	a lot of times i do this via blog post or irc	17:46
mizmo	i didnt do that for the rudeness of asking people to join question though :)	17:46
rdcrng	maybe instead of "find your role..." it could be "here what these people do..."	17:46
rdcrng	and it could go to the top	17:46
mizmo	that sounds like a great idea jadudm	17:46
yaworsw	maybe even replace the cartoon people with real people who do those jobs	17:46
mizmo	rdcrng, yeh that might work!	17:46
mizmo	i like that idea too !	17:47
yaworsw	sort of give the user the feeling that these really are real people doing this	17:47
rdcrng	and all of those could lead to separate pages where in turn you're asked to join in that groups specific way	17:47
mizmo	quaid, you'll be our model for content writer, right :) : ):)	17:47
mizmo	today that section is this wiki page:	17:48
mizmo	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join	17:48
* hildebe looks at quaid		17:48
jadudm	:D	17:48
mizmo	so here's the content writer one http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join#Content_Writer	17:48
mizmo	we are de-wikifying with this mockup, lol	17:48
jadudm	quaid doesn't use pencils, does he?	17:48
jadudm	he uses Publican	17:48
mizmo	hehe thats right	17:49
keepd	defiantly needs the de-wikifying	17:49
yaworsw	hmm what if we brought the slideshow to the community page and made the slides pictures of artists/writers/etc with a description of how average people can contribute	17:49
kauffmj	that might work	17:50
yaworsw	ofc then we lose the ability to display all of the potential roles at the same time	17:50
mizmo	yaworsw, well we had a similar idea, I think schenjde has been working on the mockup for this -	17:50
mizmo	to have interviews with a person in each role	17:50
mizmo	similar to what we did here -	17:50
jadudm	ooh...	17:50
mizmo	http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ (scroll to the bottom)	17:50
mizmo	now what we didn't consider was building that into a slide show	17:50
rdcrng	mizmo, i like the interview idea	17:50
jadudm	what about a short video interview with people in each role?	17:50
mizmo	i think that's an awesome idea	17:50
mizmo	right now spins loads up a random one (of two, lol) when you refresh the page	17:50
mizmo	having a slideshow would be way better	17:50
mizmo	jadudm, that's a great idea too!	17:51
jadudm	all good ideas, all testable ideas	17:51
rdcrng	ugh testing	17:51
yaworsw	youtube fedora interviews = exposure = new users?	17:51
rdcrng	just kidding	17:51
mizmo	hehe	17:51
* jadudm thought rdcrng was kidding		17:51
mizmo	yaworsw, i think so	17:51
mizmo	i did a video on fedora 12 a while back	17:51
jadudm	so, it sounds like we have two clear targets: downloads and community/onboarding	17:51
mizmo	it got so many hits (something like 30k) that google kept emailing me to join their ad program	17:52
khane	and we do have recording equipment	17:52
jadudm	khane: EXACTLY	17:52
yaworsw	haha	17:52
mizmo	i dont know if its helpful	17:52
jadudm	granted, doing video interviews involves a slightly different set of tricks	17:52
rdcrng	maybe you guys could include a video of our class?	17:52
mizmo	but an anthropology masters student studied fedora this past year	17:52
mizmo	and she had a lot of infomration on our on-boarding process	17:52
mizmo	rdcrng, that would be AWESOME	17:53
jadudm	rdcrng: we could start with your life story	17:53
mizmo	http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/ <= this is the anthropologists' report	17:53
khane	haha	17:53
rdcrng	haha	17:53
yaworsw	lol	17:53
hildebe	haha	17:53
kauffmj	rofl	17:53
johnsog_	haha	17:53
mizmo	rdcrng, your life story from your wiki user page needs to be an xcd comic	17:53
mizmo	xkcd	17:53
jadudm	That's awesome. I wonder if we can get her thesis	17:53
keepd	I think Rdcrng should be the picture for people person on the blue bar	17:54
jadudm	#action get thesis from diana [@] cyber-anthro.com	17:54
yaworsw	#link http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/	17:54
rdcrng	i think we should stop here with how much exposure i get and talk about testable ideas	17:54
mizmo	diana's report is a good example of how gathering data can really help with a design	17:54
jadudm	:)	17:54
yaworsw	professor jadud you are teaching a FS101 this semester aren't you?	17:55
jadudm	mercy, yaworsw, I've got a reputation in this community	17:55
jadudm	don't go runnin' around throwin out the 'p' word.	17:56
hildebe	free test subjects?	17:56
jadudm	i'm trying to fit in as a leet oss hacker	17:56
yaworsw	lol	17:56
khane	gotta be PC, its "participants" now	17:56
yaworsw	sorry matt the black hat	17:56
rdcrng	lol	17:57
jadudm	yaworsw: yes. And, there might be other FS groups that would be willing/appropriate to work with us.	17:57
mizmo	dont be too leet though, my first irc nick was in leet speek and i got laughed out of channels lol	17:57
kauffmj	i could try to volunteer Cup's FS class, since i'm a peer leader	17:57
rdcrng	maybe the FS course could be our "test subjects"	17:57
yaworsw	mizmo are the mockups in HTML or are they just images at this point?	17:58
mizmo	this kind of covers (i think) the kind of folks we're hoping to reach with the design, if that's of help: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/#comment-7292	17:58
-!- jadudm is now known as leetjadudm		17:58
mizmo	yaworsw, they are just flat mockups at this point	17:58
hildebe	that's what I was going to suggest, I feel like they'd be closer to the target user than a pro like Radu	17:58
mizmo	the source is up on the wiki page if they need to be manipulated	17:58
mizmo	and if you folks want to try out different ideas im happy to whip out change-o versions of mockups for ya	17:58
* keepd acknowledges 1337jadudm as chair.		17:58
mizmo	if you want to try your hand at it, they'll all inkcape svg files	17:58
mizmo	inkscape that is	17:59
leetjadudm	mizmo: my goal is that we cycle rapidly through to hi-fi prototyping, but the big priority will be to do the low-fi mockups and testing	17:59
mizmo	okay cool	17:59
johnsog_	mizmo, is there any website usage data from the current fedora website?	17:59
mizmo	some, one sec	17:59
mizmo	so this is where you can access our awstats pages: http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/	17:59
mizmo	http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/	17:59
yaworsw	#link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/	18:00
mizmo	i did a survey for download methods too, one sec	18:00
leetjadudm	looks like the kind of traffic I get on rockalypse.org	18:00
* leetjadudm coughs violently.		18:00
kauffmj	# link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/	18:00
rdcrng	you wish :D	18:00
mizmo	http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/	18:01
mizmo	that was a survey of users' preferred download methods (note the subject bias - *current* fedora users, not necessarily from our target market)	18:01
mizmo	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics	18:01
mizmo	some general fedora project statistics are available there	18:01
leetjadudm	20% bittorrent	18:02
mizmo	like how many total downloads, how many contributors, etc	18:02
yaworsw	#link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/	18:02
leetjadudm	(is zodbot alive?)	18:02
rdcrng	don't think so	18:02
mizmo	leetjadudm, i think the admins put a bullet in its head	18:02
johnsog_	zodbot seems to be dead	18:02
leetjadudm	s'ok. I'll pull things out by hand later.	18:02
keepd	zodbot had an accident	18:02
leetjadudm	keep using the syntax: it will make my life easier later.	18:02
mizmo	one of the sites they pulled down made zodbot go boom	18:02
mizmo	those are pretty much all the stats i know about	18:03
yaworsw	i suppose we could just make a quick text parser to take out the links and actions and whatever else we need	18:03
mizmo	we try to use open source methods of gathering stats	18:03
mizmo	so we dont use anything fancy like omniture	18:03
leetjadudm	CTRL-F will work, too.	18:03
yaworsw	doh	18:03
leetjadudm	So, actually, flipping through the convo, I see three obvious spaces that we all probably think are good places to test:	18:04
leetjadudm	1. downloads	18:04
leetjadudm	2. community/onboarding (+ athro data of überness)	18:04
leetjadudm	3. front page / goal/task routing	18:04
leetjadudm	(eg. you hit the main page and want to download, is it easy, etc.)	18:04
rdcrng	jonathan said yes	18:04
mizmo	yep yep!	18:04
yaworsw	saints are up 7-0	18:04
leetjadudm	how many of you are in Alden?	18:04
kauffmj	radu and i are in alden 103	18:05
johnsog_	there are 3 in 101	18:05
yaworsw	i'm in the library	18:05
khane	i'm in my house	18:05
* hildebe is at his apartment		18:05
keepd	I'm in Alden	18:05
mfody	im at my house	18:05
kauffmj	where are you jamie?\	18:05
keepd	101	18:05
leetjadudm	i love irc	18:05
-!- leetjadudm is now known as l33tjadudm		18:06
mizmo	you folks know about /me	18:06
rdcrng	will take me a while to gert there	18:06
* mizmo is stuck in irc. help! get me out of there		18:06
rosss	change your name to zodbot, make me feel safer	18:06
l33tjadudm	:)	18:06
* hildebe helps mizmo get unstuck		18:06
l33tjadudm	I suspect that's considered poor form on these channels	18:06
-!- mizmo is now known as zodbot		18:06
* keepd 1337 **cough**		18:06
* zodbot ate your logs for lunch		18:06
rosss	thx	18:06
-!- l33tjadudm is now known as jadudm		18:06
zodbot	yum yum	18:06
* zodbot burps		18:06
-!- zodbot is now known as mizmo		18:06
yaworsw	oh snap	18:06
johnsog_	haha	18:07
jadudm	you know, i've tried to have many a conversation with zodbot.	18:07
jadudm	never have they been so entertaining.	18:07
kauffmj	mizmo's a doppleganger	18:07
mizmo	jadudm, yeh freenode threatens to kick you off in 30 seconds if you don't provide zodbot's nick password	18:07
jadudm	sweet	18:07
mizmo	nick theft is serious business on freenode	18:07
mizmo	on efnet... they're enforced a bit... differently	18:07
mizmo	:)	18:07
jadudm	i introduced my freshman seminar to IRC this past week	18:07
jadudm	a freenode op dropped into #allegheny because we all connected at once	18:08
yaworsw	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr3S0ziqLus	18:08
mizmo	ha nice	18:08
rdcrng	that was our class	18:08
yaworsw	sorry that took so long to find i think the joke is past at this point	18:08
mizmo	heh that song rocks	18:08
rdcrng	nice yaworsw	18:08
mizmo	so	18:08
jadudm	rdcrng: same difference	18:08
mizmo	you folks have any more questions?	18:08
hildebe	mizmo, you mentioned a fourth point for testing, "features"	18:09
mizmo	ah right	18:09
mizmo	let me pull upthe latest mockup, the one on the wiki is a couple versions old	18:09
mizmo	https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/d/de/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png	18:09
mizmo	the main feedback ive gotten on it is	18:09
rosss	what is "tutorials" going to look like?	18:09
mizmo	- wow awesome stuff!	18:10
mizmo	- too long, didn't read "TL;DR"	18:10
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mizmo	rosss, so if you look at the front page mockup -	18:10
* mizmo shuffles over to grab it		18:10
mizmo		18:10
mizmo	k	18:10
mizmo	so under the 'what can you do with fedora?' header	18:10
mizmo	see there's the, turn your friends into the hulk thing?	18:11
mizmo	the 'tutorials' page is meant to be a listing of all those tutorials	18:11
mizmo	and that space onthe front page will randomly load one of them	18:11
yaworsw	hahaha i just noticed the istockphoto watermarks on all the images	18:11
hildebe	cool idea	18:11
-!- zodbot [~supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot] has joined #fedora-websites		18:11
mizmo	the tutorials we have now are	18:11
mizmo	Build beautiful color palettes for your home and wardrobe Agave	18:11
mizmo	Access your favorite apps with one click custom desktop launchers Tutorial Completed	18:11
mizmo	Get organized and build a personal database Gnote Tutorial Completed	18:12
mizmo	the hulk one	18:12
khane	I have to run, I have to do some comp research before my meeting tomorrow	18:12
rosss	thanks	18:12
mizmo	heh yeh, we mean to replace those with real fedora user photos	18:12
jadudm	khane: thanks. we're wrapping up here.	18:12
khane	night all	18:12
yaworsw	night	18:12
mizmo	later	18:12
-!- khane [1890cf67@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.144.207.103] has quit [Quit: Page closed]		18:12
kauffmj	goodbye khane	18:12
jadudm	ok	18:13
mizmo	tajidinabd, btw i just saw your tutorial content now, it's looking great	18:13
jadudm	so.	18:13
jadudm	i'd say that we've got stuff to pull apart tomorrow in class (as well as discuss readings), and we'll start drawing up battle plans and getting into things.	18:14
mizmo	awesome :)	18:14
jadudm	we'll use the mailing list (websites@) as well as this space to discuss things as we go.	18:14
jadudm	so, we'll go into asnyc mode at this point, and I don't think that we'll try and do another group IRC chat, unless we decide it's useful/a good idea later	18:15
mizmo	okie doke	18:15
mizmo	do note im usually lurking in here during business hours for quick questions	18:15
jadudm	any final comments from our end?	18:15
mizmo	sometimes at night too	18:15
yaworsw	i thought this was quite productive	18:15
mizmo	yay	18:16
kauffmj	a lucid conversation	18:16
jadudm	righto	18:16
jadudm	mizmo: thanks so much.	18:16
mizmo	thank *you* all :)	18:16
mizmo	im sure your work will be very helpful for fedora	18:16
rdcrng	thanks mizmo and everyone else	18:17
yaworsw	hopefully lol	18:17
mizmo	we're really happy to have you all involved	18:17
rosss	thanks, night all	18:17
jadudm	well, i'm going to go do the reading for tomorrow at this point... so, thanks all for a good meeting, and i'll see you tomorrow	18:17
mizmo	so welcome :)	18:17
mizmo	later	18:17
johnsog_	thanks everyone	18:17
rdcrng	night	18:17
johnsog_	bye	18:17
keepd	night	18:17
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mfody	bye	18:17
kauffmj	good evening colleagues	18:17
yaworsw	see most of you tomorow	18:17
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-!- kauffmj [~kauffmj@aldenv106.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]		18:18
-!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has left #fedora-websites []		18:18
-!- mfody [~Matt@dynamic-acs-24-144-203-247.zoominternet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]		18:18
hildebe	adios	18:18
-!- keepd [~keepd@aldenv186.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]		18:18
-!- johnsog_ [~johnsog@aldenv158.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]		18:18
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yaworsw	hey	18:18
nb	hi	18:18
yaworsw	were you here for that whole convorsation	18:19
jadudm	yaworsw: yes?	18:19
jadudm	me?	18:19
yaworsw	oh'	18:19
yaworsw	just going to remind you to copy + paste	18:19
jadudm	yep	18:19
jadudm	:)	18:19
yaworsw	lol	18:19
jadudm	good call, though	18:19
yaworsw	on see you tomorow	18:19
yaworsw	ok*	18:19

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