Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080528

quaid	<meeting>	12:07
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes		12:07
quaid	... and welcome	12:07
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-!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-meeting		12:08
quaid	roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ...	12:09
quaid	<- Karsten is here	12:09
jmbuser	JohnBabich	12:09
Sparks	Eric Christensen	12:09
-!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@adsl-065-012-235-102.sip.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora-meeting		12:09
* quaid is getting agenda up on his screen		12:10
-!- mcepl [n=matej@adsl3050.in.ipex.cz] has left #fedora-meeting ["Bye bye!"]		12:10
jmbuser	JohnBabich the psychic	12:10
quaid	heh	12:10
* ianweller lurks		12:10
quaid	ok, I saw couf join	12:10
quaid	and jsmith is half-here	12:10
quaid	stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something	12:10
* jsmith wishes he were eating dinner		12:11
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections!		12:11
quaid	cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like	12:11
quaid	paul posted a bit on list	12:11
quaid	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html	12:11
* quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread		12:12
quaid	ok	12:13
Sparks	There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further	12:13
quaid	some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks	12:13
quaid	what I propose is this:	12:14
quaid	i. we discuss until :35 at the latest	12:14
quaid	ii. see if we have a consensus	12:14
quaid	iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue	12:14
Sparks	+1	12:15
quaid	I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not	12:15
jmbuser	+1	12:15
jmbuser	continue	12:16
* quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :)		12:17
quaid	simple idea:	12:17
quaid	how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"?	12:17
quaid	eol	12:17
jmbuser	We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people	12:18
jsmith	quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader. They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them	12:18
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jsmith	The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it	12:19
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quaid	what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match	12:19
jmbuser	This is not that unusual	12:19
quaid	do we fix the process then? dissolve it?	12:20
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Sparks	In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at	12:20
jmbuser	Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things	12:21
quaid	spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc.	12:21
jmbuser	The solution is to have the process reflect reality	12:21
quaid	spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :)	12:21
Sparks	If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process	12:21
quaid	reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc.	12:21
quaid	Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to"	12:22
Sparks	Exactly	12:22
Sparks	But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project	12:22
* jsmith agrees		12:23
quaid	oh good	12:23
quaid	that's how I've been feeling :)	12:23
jsmith	In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee	12:23
quaid	the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with	12:23
jsmith	(as I've been practically worthless lately)	12:23
quaid	or	12:23
quaid	make it "opt in"	12:24
quaid	you want in, you are in	12:24
quaid	you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while	12:24
quaid	and let people "breathe" that way as per their life	12:24
Sparks	That works	12:24
quaid	I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work	12:24
Sparks	We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"... and we already do, really	12:25
quaid	yep	12:25
quaid	as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are:	12:25
quaid	* have that as a general subproj election	12:25
quaid	* have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else	12:25
quaid	sorry, that was 1 and 2	12:25
jmbuser	"Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion	12:26
quaid	3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough	12:26
quaid	4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants	12:26
* jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry		12:26
quaid	jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered	12:26
jsmith	Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"?	12:27
quaid	I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed.	12:27
quaid	in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject	12:27
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quaid	and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj	12:27
jsmith	I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad?	12:27
quaid	jsmith: not bad, just ...	12:27
quaid	jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff	12:28
jsmith	quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow	12:28
quaid	jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc.	12:28
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quaid	jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :)	12:28
Sparks	+1 to quaid's list...	12:28
quaid	turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined	12:28
Sparks	I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort	12:28
quaid	how about this as a scheme:	12:29
jsmith	FSSCo senate?	12:29
quaid	* FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering	12:29
quaid	* FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant	12:29
quaid	* FDSCo decides to elect or appoint	12:29
quaid	* If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering	12:30
jsmith	+1	12:30
jsmith	WORKSFORME	12:30
Sparks	+1	12:30
* quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :)		12:30
Sparks	It is... only less strict... more flexible	12:31
jsmith	quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-)	12:31
jmbuser	In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different	12:31
* quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :)		12:31
jsmith	be right back	12:31
jmbuser	than what you propose	12:32
quaid	jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better	12:32
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RodrigoPadula	hello guys!	12:33
jmbuser	In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections?	12:33
spoleeba	let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs?	12:33
quaid	I don't think so	12:33
quaid	that said,	12:33
quaid	most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion	12:33
quaid	but we are not well represented from certain groups	12:34
spoleeba	is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum	12:34
spoleeba	if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort	12:35
quaid	+1	12:37
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quaid	when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :)	12:37
quaid	right now it's like a girls club electing "officers"	12:38
quaid	which was important	12:38
quaid	back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things	12:38
jmbuser	What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds?	12:38
quaid	now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ...	12:38
quaid	jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that	12:39
jmbuser	Encouraging FOSS solutions instead?	12:39
quaid	well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit.	12:39
quaid	I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't	12:40
quaid	if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :)	12:40
quaid	ok, we went over the mark	12:41
quaid	but I think we got some consensus, yes?	12:41
jmbuser	please sum up	12:41
quaid	ok, let's see ...	12:42
* jsmith stumbles back		12:42
Sparks	+1	12:42
quaid	12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering	12:42
quaid	12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant	12:42
quaid	12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint	12:42
quaid	12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering	12:42
quaid	add to that:	12:42
quaid	FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit.	12:42
quaid	and what I propose:	12:42
quaid	all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader"	12:43
quaid	and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy	12:43
quaid	(that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME)	12:43
quaid	eosummary	12:44
quaid	SME == subject matter expert	12:44
quaid	did I miss anything?	12:44
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* jmbuser is starting to "get it"		12:44
jsmith	quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life	12:45
jmbuser	All hail, quaid!	12:45
jsmith	quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head	12:45
quaid	hey, I have an ego, too	12:45
Sparks	quaid quaid quaid quaid	12:45
jsmith	quaid++	12:45
jmbuser	MIB II reference :-)	12:45
quaid	anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :)	12:45
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jsmith	quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count?	12:46
Sparks	So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :)	12:47
quaid	word	12:48
quaid	anything more?	12:48
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1		12:48
quaid	anyone here know anything?	12:48
* jsmith doesn't know *anything*		12:49
quaid	mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au	12:49
quaid	stickster_afk is dining still	12:49
* quaid is joking, he doesn't know		12:49
quaid	ok, moving on	12:49
jsmith	~hail gluttony!	12:49
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-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ...		12:49
quaid	let's make this the final topic for now	12:49
quaid	oh, sorry	12:49
quaid	Sparks had some stuff too	12:49
Sparks	Not really... It can wait.	12:50
quaid	Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening?	12:50
Sparks	Yes	12:50
couf	pong, sorry	12:50
quaid	if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any	12:50
Sparks	Okay... So wiki gardening...	12:50
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ...		12:50
Sparks	I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages...	12:50
quaid	(it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping)	12:51
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Sparks	and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages...	12:51
quaid	+1 sweet	12:51
Sparks	but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject...	12:51
Sparks	just go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:DocsProject.	12:51
Sparks	This brings up my first request...	12:52
tiagoaoa	let me see if I can talk here	12:52
Sparks	categories.	12:52
tiagoaoa	yep.. not moderated, see?	12:52
Sparks	tiagoaoa Go ahead	12:52
tiagoaoa	nevermind	12:52
quaid	Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right?	12:52
Sparks	quaid: We can have anything we want.	12:53
Sparks	Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category...	12:53
quaid	tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick.	12:53
quaid	Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats?	12:53
Sparks	so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is.	12:54
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Sparks	There seems to be two... DocsProject and Documentation	12:54
quaid	they are different	12:54
quaid	one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content	12:54
Sparks	If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it	12:54
quaid	true that	12:54
Sparks	quaid: exactly	12:54
quaid	do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat?	12:55
Sparks	I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts.	12:55
quaid	what about a namespace?	12:55
Sparks	quaid: I don't know. That was one of my questions	12:55
quaid	Docs: or something	12:55
quaid	ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories?	12:55
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quaid	ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat?	12:56
Sparks	quaid: yes... Check the security guide.	12:56
ianweller	it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in Category:Documentation?	12:56
quaid	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation	12:56
quaid	ok, I see	12:56
jsmith	Gotta run again...	12:56
-!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away		12:56
ianweller	if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft	12:56
quaid	ianweller: yes	12:56
Sparks	ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that.	12:57
quaid	that seems clear enough	12:57
quaid	Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw	12:57
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Sparks	Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there	12:57
quaid	I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage	12:57
Sparks	the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things	12:57
quaid	ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ?	12:57
quaid	Sparks: can you write up a policy? DocsProject/Categories or something	12:58
Sparks	Sure	12:58
quaid	policy/procedure/guideline whatever	12:58
Sparks	guide	12:58
Sparks	that's not a problem	12:58
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Sparks	Anyone have anything else? If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me	12:58
quaid	I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better	12:59
quaid	so we can move on to orphaned, sure	12:59
Sparks	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages	12:59
* quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace		12:59
-!- rdieter_away is now known as rdieter		12:59
Sparks	So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki	12:59
quaid	oooooh, nice Special: page	12:59
ianweller	quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces	12:59
Sparks	Lots of fun stuff in here.	12:59
quaid	wow, there are tons there	13:00
quaid	for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them	13:00
Sparks	Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient	13:00
quaid	that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list	13:01
Sparks	yeah	13:01
quaid	Sparks: well ...	13:01
quaid	Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful	13:01
quaid	Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit	13:01
quaid	I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind	13:01
Sparks	I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love	13:01
quaid	to use it as a basis for declaring orphans	13:01
quaid	that is true	13:01
Sparks	I agree	13:01
quaid	ok, we are out of time	13:01
Sparks	Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought.	13:02
Sparks	eof	13:02
quaid	let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion.	13:02
quaid	ok, then, cool	13:02
quaid	thanks everyone	13:02
quaid	</meeting>	13:02

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