From Fedora Project Wiki
| sdziallas | hi all! | |
| sdziallas | so, who is here for the education sig meeting? | |
| * rdieter here | ||
| sdziallas | warren, gregdek ping | |
| sdziallas | anybody else? | |
| sdziallas | okay not very effective, but here we go | |
| sdziallas | maybe we should talk about the education spin and collaboration with K12LTSP?! | |
| sdziallas | i have uploaded a possible kickstart file for a spin to the wiki | |
| rdieter | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin ? | |
| sdziallas | yes! | |
| sdziallas | i tried to get some of the most important educational apps in | |
| sdziallas | but basically, it's just kdeedu, blender and scribus | |
| rdieter | What qualifies as an "educational" app? | |
| WhiteNitro | Hello - Bryant Patten here for education sig meeting - sorry about being tardy - phone meeting overrun | |
| sdziallas | Hi | |
| sdziallas | rdieter: well, i went through the repos and created a first draft list (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Apps) | |
| rdieter | ah, thx. | |
| sdziallas | whitenitro: we were just talking about the spin and educational apps (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin) | |
| rdieter | seems very open-ended and overly broad perhaps, hard to quantify what's best to include or not. | |
| rdieter | esp if you're limiting yourself to a livecd (or not?) | |
| sdziallas | yeah... that's true... | |
| rdieter | For example, perhaps something to consider omitting would be games (otoh, there do exist educational games). | |
| sdziallas | +1 | |
| sdziallas | i think we cannot put everything on a livecd | |
| sdziallas | IMHO, such a cd might be used for an quick overview of edu-apps and might e.g. be handled out by a teacher to his students | |
| sdziallas | but we cannot include everything | |
| rdieter | maybe try to focus on 1, 2, or 3 main areas, and make sure to do them well. For example, math/science. | |
| rdieter | at least as a first try. | |
| WhiteNitro | Is it a given that OpenOffice suite is included - in case teachers wanted to send home assignments in ODF? | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: ooo is too big. | |
| sdziallas | sounds like a beginning | |
| WhiteNitro | Abiword? | |
| sdziallas | i had abiword in it | |
| rdieter | abiword or kword would be better. | |
| sdziallas | but for f9, my first tries using gnome (and abiword) become way too big | |
| sdziallas | now there are kword, kspread, and kpresenter in it | |
| sdziallas | it's just my problem, that an default gnome desktop (without all the software - just the basics and gnome) ist still about 550 MB | |
| sdziallas | and then, I'm not able to include kdeedu anymore | |
| rdieter | yeah, basic os/desktop, be it gnome or kde, takes a majority of the space on a livecd, not much room for additional apps. | |
| WhiteNitro | Is a live DVD a possibility (advance apologies is that is a newbie question)? | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: no, I was about to suggest considering just that. | |
| sdziallas | well, I'd normally recommend a dvd... we had a discussion on FDL on this some time ago | |
| rdieter | there's a hard trade off here: the ease/simplicity of using cd-sized, vs. the flexibility of the additional space using >700MB image. | |
| WhiteNitro | Because the ability for a teacher to hand out a disk at the beginning of the year that contains all the apps for the year would be great. | |
| sdziallas | that makes some sense | |
| WhiteNitro | One that doesn't required installing on the home machine would be a complete homerun. | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: I think for that to be possible, serious thought has to be put into narrowing the spin's focus, it can't be everything for everybody. | |
| WhiteNitro | Or perhaps some kind of image for a 2GB or 4GB flash drive - bootable or portable apps sort of thing | |
| WhiteNitro | I was thinking a focus on K-12 education | |
| WhiteNitro | maybe a set of apps for K-6, and 7-12 | |
| WhiteNitro | But I hadn't thought through domain specific spins (math, science, etc) | |
| sdziallas | well... my first idea were age-specific spins, too | |
| rdieter | right, focus on 1 or 2 domains initially, would be my suggestion. | |
| sdziallas | but domain specific makes also sense, too | |
| sdziallas | but there is a major problem: | |
| sdziallas | as you may have noticed, we had some havy discussions on spins on FAB and FDL | |
| sdziallas | and there is now a spin sig | |
| sdziallas | bit i really don't know, how many spins we could provide using the fedora infrastructure | |
| rdieter | that's a good question, but a separate issue, imo. | |
| rdieter | without narrower focus, the edu spin as-is would likely be of limitted interest to anyone. | |
| WhiteNitro | A parallel problem is that if you force teachers or tech people to decide which of dozens of spins they need, you will lose them as well | |
| WhiteNitro | "For this lesson plan, you need the software on Spin 17A ...." | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: yes and no, edu-sig needs to reach out to folks not currently satisified, to find out what they want/need, and help them get what they want. | |
| WhiteNitro | True | |
| sdziallas | so we need to make some advertisement and ask the people for their opinions?! | |
| WhiteNitro | But sometimes too many choices can be overwhelming, no? | |
| rdieter | well, right now, there is no choice. The spin doesn't exist yet. :) | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: eventually, yes. | |
| sdziallas | yet! ;) | |
| WhiteNitro | I did just get a request for a K-7 Arts Open Source CD (tuxpaint, Pencil, etc) | |
| WhiteNitro | :) touche - we will cross that bridge later | |
| rdieter | I guess what I'm getting at is... I propose the edu-sig start small, make a small, narrowly focussed spin, make sure it appeals to at least some edu demographic. | |
| rdieter | obviously, this won't be everything to everyone, but hopefully, be enough to garner more input, so that other edu-spins could benefit. | |
| WhiteNitro | Makes sense. What is your suggestion for the focus? | |
| rdieter | *shrug*, I threw out Math/Science earlier, but it really could be anything. Any opinions on what would be most in demand, what's might be most popular? | |
| sdziallas | well... depends... math & science seems to be most useful... maybe chemistry? | |
| rdieter | I'm biased, I work at a University, Math dept, so take what I say with a grain of salt. | |
| WhiteNitro | Would these spins have content or just apps? | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: apps (mainly). | |
| sdziallas | I mean, later... we could think about something like a portal with educational content and descriptions for the apps | |
| WhiteNitro | [bias confession ] I am strictly in the K-12 world :) | |
| * sdziallas goes again through the list of apps | ||
| sdziallas | so tools like audacity or jokosher might be at first way too specific | |
| WhiteNitro | It is a fairly broad list in age and domain (tuxtype to blender) | |
| sdziallas | true... definitely | |
| sdziallas | i should work on this | |
| WhiteNitro | I need to re-read the use-case for this spin. Is is something that teachers hand out? That students use for the their own exploration? Home schoolers? | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: I don't think there is a use-case yet, that's part of what's needed, imo. (unless I'm missing something). | |
| sdziallas | depends... i think rdieter is right | |
| sdziallas | we need a goal for this one | |
| WhiteNitro | Well...I don't know if this is relevant or helpful...(jeez - great opening statement ).... | |
| WhiteNitro | but we just had an Open Source and Education conference here in Vermont | |
| WhiteNitro | and when we suggested having an art contest for next year's conference of student created art using FOSS tools | |
| WhiteNitro | it got a good reception and a request for a CD 'with all the FOSS art tools' | |
| WhiteNitro | So I will be creating that in the near future | |
| rdieter | that's a good idea. | |
| WhiteNitro | I would be terrific to have it be a live Fedora CD/DVD if possible | |
| sdziallas | so we would have an art specific spin containing e.g. inkscape, blender, gimp, and so on? | |
| rdieter | we're veering into something less edu'y and more art'y, but I still think it's something to try. | |
| * sdziallas found this one in the wiki | ||
| rdieter | sdziallas: sounds like it. | |
| sdziallas | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio | |
| WhiteNitro | If teachers are requesting it for use during school time.....quacks like duck... | |
| WhiteNitro | If it helps, here is the conf. info: http://www.ncose.org/node/11 | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: does the existing FedorArtStudio sound like something that would might work? | |
| WhiteNitro | At a first glance, yes - though it may need lower end stuff as well (tuxpaint) for K-2 groups | |
| * sdziallas has a look at the kickstart file | ||
| sdziallas | this one is about 1,1 GB | |
| WhiteNitro | Speaking of kids, I have to go pick up mine at school. I will watch the Fedora eduction mailing list for next steps. | |
| rdieter | WhiteNitro: thx | |
| sdziallas | ;) yeah... thx | |
| WhiteNitro | Enjoyed it - looking forward to next one | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: ok, I think we've identified a few concrete steps on how to move forward. | |
| <-- WhiteNitro hat () beendet | ||
| rdieter | 1. identify use-case | |
| rdieter | 2. identify spin-focus | |
| rdieter | 1, 2 will affect each other obviously. | |
| sdziallas | that's true | |
| rdieter | 3. spin size (cd size or not) | |
| sdziallas | 4. create kickstart and try to get it approved ? | |
| sdziallas | 5. release the spin and try to get as much feedback as possible ? | |
| rdieter | I'd say to 5 first. | |
| rdieter | don't wait/block on 4 | |
| rdieter | well, the "get it approved" part anyway | |
| rdieter | I can help produce/host the sucker... I think Axel had offered help on list here too. | |
| sdziallas | okay. this sounds really good | |
| rdieter | I'm not familiar with out distro's edu efforts, like edubuntu, is that something worth looking closer at, maybe steal... err... borrow ideas? | |
| sdziallas | ;) well, i was some time ago involved in the opensuse edu-efforts (not for along time) | |
| sdziallas | they are only producing a repo or a cd with packages on it | |
| sdziallas | but they have some interesting web and wiki pages | |
| sdziallas | e.g. they have also lists of desktop / server edu apps | |
| sdziallas | http://opensuse-education.org/ | |
| sdziallas | http://en.opensuse.org/Education | |
| rdieter | oh, and lest we forget, the other obvious spin use-case/focus would be as a delivery mechanism to ltsp-related stuff, but we'll likely have to wait on warren to fill in the details on how best to accomplish that. | |
| warren | It isn't ready and thus would be too confusing at this point. | |
| sdziallas | agreed. i think at least, we might include the possibility to sign on to a K12linux terminal server | |
| warren | plus you have the problem of installing the chroot which is a bit of a unique problem | |
| sdziallas | hmmm... | |
| rdieter | warren: ok, I guess I had naively hoped a livecd could serve as ltsp client somehow maybe. sorta kinda. | |
| warren | rdieter: well, that part is easy | |
| warren | rdieter: I'm was thinking live LTSP server that has the client chroot as well | |
| rdieter | cool, but harder. | |
| warren | not exactly | |
| rdieter | ok, just cool then. :) | |
| warren | the code already exists for this, but not exactly what you describe | |
| warren | let me clarify a bit | |
| warren | LTSP in Fedora 9 is pretty functional now | |
| warren | but I don't consider it production ready yet | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: definitely put some of those related edu-sites/links on our Sig/EDU wiki too. | |
| warren | we're still missing a few things that Ubuntu has and we have almost no documentation | |
| sdziallas | rdieter: i'm going to :) | |
| warren | This means a Linux sysadmin can today deploy a pretty functional LTSP server to serve thin clients | |
| warren | but it isn't entirely easy for end-users yet | |
| rdieter | warren: thx, do you see anything else between edu-sig and ltsp-bits that can be mutually beneficial (ie, what can the edu-sig do help you, and maybe vice-versa) | |
| warren | yes | |
| warren | I don't have time to define the set of 'edu' apps to install onto the LTSP LiveUSB/LiveDVD | |
| warren | and I seriously need more people to actually TRY my stuff and post stuff to the list | |
| warren | help me write documentation | |
| warren | I'm getting almost no feedback despite how functional it has become in Fedora 9 | |
| rdieter | if you build it, they will come (hopefully). | |
| sdziallas | concerning the set of edu-apps: this shouldn't be a large problem, right? we might clean up the application list and order them and so on... | |
| warren | rdieter: if you're referring to a "spin" or live spin, that might be a misunderstanding | |
| warren | while I do plan on making a live LTSP | |
| warren | Ubuntu actually is moving away from making it a separate spin | |
| warren | instead just making it stuff you install on top of standard Ubuntu | |
| warren | This is the direction Eric Harrison wanted to go years ago | |
| warren | and that was largely our goal in merging LTSP into Fedora | |
| warren | live LTSP server is just a convenient way to demo or install it | |
| warren | "clean up application list" | |
| warren | do you mean to define your own comps group? | |
| sdziallas | this would depend on how we are proceeding concerning the edu-spins | |
| sdziallas | if we would create different spins for different domains (maths / chemistry / art / ...), this might be useful | |
| rdieter | comps groups for various edu domains would be useful, especfially if we had spins associated with them. :) | |
| warren | if you do different domains then you are treading onto redundancy with other sigs | |
| rdieter | or not, the groups could still be useful. | |
| warren | also keep in mind that a comps group can have both default and optional | |
| warren | default = installed by default | |
| warren | optional = easy to find in the package group in the GUI | |
| rdieter | warren: nod, examples of other sigs to watch out for (redundancy)? | |
| rdieter | Astronomy? | |
| sdziallas | well... art (we had the link there) | |
| warren | well, it isn't an exact 1 to 1 match | |
| sdziallas | the astronomy guys are preparing their own spin, too | |
| warren | and using the distinction between default and optional you can make this pretty useful | |
| warren | decide now what you will make default? | |
| warren | default should be more generally useful | |
| warren | perhaps K12 target for default, and everything else possibly educational for optional? | |
| rdieter | yeah, the more we talk about it, EDU-SIG is a good umbrella, but way too broad to speak in terms of any single spin or focus. | |
| rdieter | K12 is an excellent place to start. | |
| sdziallas | true! +1 | |
| sdziallas | so we would first order somehow the different apps, get those who are for k12 and create than different categories for the domains?! | |
| warren | I have no chance of fitting a useful Live LTSP server on a CD | |
| warren | So I'll have room to pull in whatever edu-sig picks for default desktop apps | |
| warren | sdziallas: for your spin were you thinking live CD or traditional installable? | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: yep. | |
| warren | because LiveCD's can't live openoffice | |
| warren | err | |
| warren | can't fit | |
| rdieter | warren: livecd, atm anyway | |
| sdziallas | that's true... I would really like to get openoffice in, but is just not possible to get it on a cd | |
| sdziallas | and it does not makes sense to create a dvd, if you're creating one with the default edu-apps and k12ltsp | |
| sdziallas | so we are going to stick to the cd, right? :) | |
| warren | eh | |
| warren | you wont fit on a CD | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: focussing on categorizing apps, making groups sounds like a good forward right now. | |
| rdieter | a good *way* forward even. | |
| sdziallas | rdieter: +100 | |
| warren | rdieter: yes, good idea | |
| sdziallas | warren: then, we are going to use abiword or kword (depending on the desktop environment) | |
| * rdieter goes to look at comps now. | ||
| gregdek | (Sorry, /me got called into another meeting) | |
| * sdziallas has again a look at the app list in the wiki | ||
| rdieter | ok, there is an education group already, but it's way way small as-is. | |
| sdziallas | i think there are also some interesting packages in the scientific group... | |
| rdieter | right, we can help sort that out, make sure things are categorized better, possibly move some, possibly list some apps in multiple groups. (but that has it's own down-sides) | |
| sdziallas | +1 again ;) | |
| rdieter | OK, I'll work on reviewing comps, and make some suggestions and ask for feedback on list. | |
| sdziallas | I'm going to order the list in the wiki somehow, ok? | |
| rdieter | sdziallas: please do, that'll make my job easier. :) | |
| sdziallas | work in progress ;) | |
| warren | so yeah, start out by group defining | |
| warren | I'll have a live LTSP server test spin during the next few weeks | |
| sdziallas | cool. | |
| warren | the key reason for doing live LTSP server is because people without internet or slow internet especially in developing countries can't use the standard ltsp-build-client to install their chroot | |
| warren | it needs to download ~330+ packages | |
| sdziallas | ups... sounds logic. | |
| sdziallas | i still remember the times when i had a 56k modem - not so much time ago | |
| sdziallas | so a live media seems to be a pretty good solution for such a problem | |
| rdieter | I try not to remember... :) | |
| sdziallas | agreed. we shouldn't remember that... | |
| sdziallas | so since we now have something like a plan, do you think we should close this meeting and talk again in some days / weeks? | |
| rdieter | nod, I'm out of ideas for today anyway. | |
| sdziallas | me too | |
| sdziallas | okay. so, i'm going to keep the log and prepare some posts to the wiki and the mailing list | |
| sdziallas | thank you everybody! | |
| sdziallas | any plans for next meeting? is this time okay? | |
| sdziallas | or should we just discuss this on the list? | |
| rdieter | this time works for me. | |
| sdziallas | ok... | |
| * sdziallas won't be here next friday, but lets talk about this on the list, okay? | ||
| rdieter | ok | |
| sdziallas | ok... so again thx, and cu everybody | |
| sdziallas | meeting adjourned :P | |
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