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| Sparks | #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings | 00:02 |
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| zodbot | Meeting started Thu Nov 19 00:02:20 2009 UTC. The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 00:02 |
| zodbot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. | 00:02 |
| Sparks | #topic Roll Call | 00:02 |
| * Sparks | 00:02 | |
| * radsy is here | 00:02 | |
| * rudi is here | 00:02 | |
| * bcotton is here | 00:02 | |
| * jjmcd . | 00:02 | |
| * Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes | 00:04 | |
| Sparks | Okay, let's get started | 00:08 |
| Sparks | #chair jjmcd | 00:08 |
| zodbot | Current chairs: Sparks jjmcd | 00:08 |
| Sparks | #topic Docs Project Leader Elections | 00:08 |
| Sparks | When I took this job back in January(?) I wanted to make sure that we had elections for a new leader after F12 got released. | 00:09 |
| Sparks | So here is my suggestion... | 00:09 |
| Sparks | We take nominations starting tonight and vote next week. | 00:09 |
| Sparks | Thoughts? | 00:09 |
| jjmcd | wikipage | 00:09 |
| Sparks | That's a good place to start | 00:10 |
| rudi | sounds like a plan; and the wiki is the natural place for noms to go | 00:10 |
| jjmcd | Although, we could just agree to re-elect you by acclimation | 00:10 |
| Sparks | rudi: Works for me. | 00:10 |
| Sparks | I won't take the job unless someone else runs | 00:11 |
| Sparks | :) | 00:11 |
| * Sparks votes for ---> that guy | 00:11 | |
| jjmcd | And I won't run unless I can find a sucker ... errr ... leader for RNs | 00:11 |
| Sparks | We should probably figure out if we want to do this yearly or releasely or... | 00:12 |
| jjmcd | Personally, I could argue for either | 00:12 |
| jjmcd | Yearly gives somebody a chance to get established | 00:12 |
| Sparks | yes | 00:12 |
| jjmcd | releasely gives is a quicker way to get rid of a turkey | 00:13 |
| bcotton | i'd think releasely would be a bit hectic | 00:14 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I think you should be able to get rid of me... err... a turkey at any point | 00:14 |
| * Sparks establishes https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Leader_Elections | 00:14 | |
| jjmcd | So we need an impeachment process? | 00:14 |
| Sparks | WE DON'T LIKE YOU ANYMORE... GET OFF THE STAGE! | 00:14 |
| * jjmcd prefers burning torches | 00:15 | |
| Sparks | Okay, I'll send out an email after the meeting | 00:15 |
| Sparks | #action Sparks to send out email on nominations | 00:15 |
| Sparks | Okay, anything else on this topic? | 00:15 |
| Sparks | #topic Release Notes | 00:16 |
| jjmcd | You saw the notes to the list | 00:16 |
| Sparks | First I'd like to thank jjmcd and rudi and everyone else who helped in getting the Release Notes completed. | 00:16 |
| Sparks | You guys did an awesome job! | 00:17 |
| Sparks | Now if our technology could keep up... :) | 00:17 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: What are the translation issues? | 00:17 |
| rudi | Ta -- there are still some bugs in the process, but we're getting better :) | 00:17 |
| jjmcd | They do look nice on the new F12 background - but that's all on mo | 00:17 |
| jjmcd | rudi is tracking them down, I think most are explainable | 00:17 |
| jjmcd | We do need to decide when to publish | 00:18 |
| jjmcd | and I like rudi's idea of moving in a direction of translators publishing, or at least deciding when | 00:18 |
| jjmcd | And OBTW, as translations are committed, the built docs ARE available | 00:18 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I'd like it if the translators would join us on these meetings... especially around release time | 00:18 |
| jjmcd | But without building themselves, translators have no view into the errors | 00:19 |
| jjmcd | Yes, noriko at least was joining us for a while | 00:19 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: So we need to do a classroom on how to use Publican? | 00:19 |
| jjmcd | but they are spread out across timezones | 00:19 |
| rudi | Sparks -- no, the problem is more deep-seated | 00:19 |
| jjmcd | Well, it is a major PITA until the new TFX | 00:19 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: True. Maybe the lead translator for each lang could join us... TZs make it tough | 00:19 |
| rudi | yeah; Tx 0.7 is the blocker | 00:20 |
| Sparks | rudi: more deep-seated? | 00:20 |
| rudi | Until then, translators not only need to know how to use publican, but how to wrangle the merging and splitting as well | 00:20 |
| jjmcd | And that isn't always obvious | 00:20 |
| Sparks | yes | 00:20 |
| rudi | and the "how to use Publican" is the least of their worries. | 00:20 |
| Sparks | it isn't obvious to me! | 00:21 |
| rudi | Even after all this time, *we* still bungle the merging and splitting | 00:21 |
| jjmcd | When everything is hunky-dory, we could script it. But things are rarely perfect | 00:21 |
| rudi | (which is the root of most of the English strings we're still seeing cropping up in the translations) | 00:21 |
| jjmcd | Yep, that was my suspicion | 00:21 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- yeah, confirmed. With yours truly being the chief bungler :) | 00:22 |
| jjmcd | I will remind docs and trans later where to find the nightly builds of f12zeroday-tx | 00:22 |
| rudi | But there are also some genuinely inexplicable ones, where strings we can see are definitely translated somehow don't get carried across the split... | 00:23 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: When will the next batch ready to commit? | 00:23 |
| rudi | Sparks, jjmcd -- we need to make a decision about when and whether to refresh the POTs | 00:23 |
| jjmcd | rudi: yep. Sparks: Schedule says tomorrow, but I am poking L10N to ask if that makes sense | 00:23 |
| rudi | And we probably need some input from L10N on that | 00:23 |
| jjmcd | And with the latest flamebug, we may want to do that again real soon now | 00:24 |
| Sparks | ya | 00:24 |
| rudi | The refresh would pull in the latest fixes (from f12-temp), plus the flamebug, plus assorted small glitches that are breaking translations | 00:24 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- did you want to do this before or after packaging the RN? | 00:25 |
| jjmcd | I would also like to get something authoratative on processors. We have an outstanding bug that disagrees with other experts, and I don't know who to believe | 00:25 |
| jjmcd | rudi, we have a package in the DVD, and a more recent package on updates | 00:25 |
| jjmcd | We will want to do another probably for the install thing first en then maybe all langs | 00:26 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- Ah OK! so any update is not going to interfere with thath | 00:26 |
| rudi | * that | 00:26 |
| jjmcd | I don't think we want to wait that one for the translations | 00:26 |
| jjmcd | yeah, Sparks has been great on getting these things to the repos | 00:26 |
| rudi | OK -- so regenerate today? | 00:26 |
| jjmcd | sounds good to me | 00:26 |
| jjmcd | There is more manual than I would like in the packaging, but it isn't some huge deal | 00:27 |
| jjmcd | The real problem is waiting hours and hours to build all the langs | 00:28 |
| jjmcd | Well, mostly to merge | 00:28 |
| jjmcd | BTW, I saw you committed some merged pos | 00:28 |
| jjmcd | If we can keep up with that, it could be a real help | 00:28 |
| rudi | NP -- I'm trying to make sure that the master branch stays current and ready to build | 00:29 |
| jjmcd | good, I like that | 00:29 |
| jjmcd | http://fedora.is-sixsigma.com/F12beta/ - regenerated every night, from t12zeroday even tho it says beta | 00:29 |
| rudi | So -- the other question is -- do we wait till we have an answer on the arches before rebuilding? | 00:29 |
| rudi | *regenerating | 00:30 |
| jjmcd | I think we need to deal with the install policy immediately | 00:30 |
| rudi | We have text on the policy change ready to insert? | 00:31 |
| jjmcd | As much as I would like an answer on the other, I think all those guys are burning their cycles on BZ534047 | 00:31 |
| jjmcd | No | 00:31 |
| jjmcd | Well, there is text | 00:31 |
| jjmcd | and widespread agreement it is wron | 00:31 |
| rudi | OK -- well, we need something definitive in the f12-temp branch ASAP | 00:32 |
| rudi | radsy -- are you in a position to write it up? | 00:32 |
| jjmcd | So, I will craft some weasel words that try to avoid the emotion, but we still need a definitive workaround | 00:32 |
| rudi | Yeah -- whether the change is good, bad, or ugly is not relevant to the RN | 00:32 |
| jjmcd | The fix posted by Seth isn't even available to most people | 00:32 |
| rudi | Just its effects and what to do if you don't like it for whatever reason | 00:33 |
| jjmcd | You gotta be a policykit developer to even have the tool | 00:33 |
| jjmcd | It is the what to do that is the problem | 00:33 |
| jjmcd | Not too hard to describe the change | 00:34 |
| rudi | OK | 00:34 |
| jjmcd | Does that become 5.2.1, or 4.1? | 00:34 |
| rudi | So where are we going to get that from? | 00:34 |
| jjmcd | Well, the bug thread hasn't slowed yet | 00:35 |
| rudi | I'd say 5.2.1, with a pointer in 4.1 | 00:35 |
| jjmcd | Oh maybe it has. I couldn't get a word in edgewise earlier, but now it's been an hour since someone commented | 00:35 |
| jjmcd | On the bug, I'm sure the mailing list is still lively | 00:36 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Would now be a good time to ask for a definitive answer on what needs to go in the RNs? | 00:36 |
| jjmcd | Or everyone got frustrated with the in-flight collisions on bugzilla | 00:36 |
| jjmcd | Ask where? | 00:37 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: The more I think about it the more I think that PK should just be uninstalled on systems where users shouldn't be installing software... almost makes sense. | 00:37 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: On the bug. | 00:37 |
| jjmcd | Seems like everyone has a horse in this race | 00:37 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: you/we still need an answer | 00:37 |
| jjmcd | yep | 00:37 |
| * Sparks got hit twice on the same post with a collision | 00:37 | |
| jjmcd | And we need to test it | 00:37 |
| jjmcd | Much of what has been talked about doesn't work for ordinary mortals | 00:38 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I agree | 00:38 |
| jjmcd | What I think we are saying, rudi, is that we aren't ready for a full rebuild | 00:39 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Well... work up some text saying what PK does and that a solution is in the works | 00:39 |
| jjmcd | I'll post en-US as soon as we get an answer, and we can do the big thing tomorrow | 00:39 |
| rudi | yeah, that's what I'm hearing. | 00:39 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: If you get the solution before you crash for the night then put it in... | 00:39 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: otherwise build it and let's do a push | 00:39 |
| Sparks | ok | 00:40 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, at least on docs.fp.o I can put a warning | 00:40 |
| Sparks | WORKSFORME | 00:40 |
| Sparks | Okay, anything else on the Release Notes? | 00:42 |
| jjmcd | rudi, any clue why the rev history is missing from the trans? | 00:42 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- yeah; I turned them off | 00:43 |
| jjmcd | Oh, OK | 00:43 |
| rudi | when I was building | 00:43 |
| rudi | the changes that you had to make for yelp caused them to blow up when I was building the translated versions | 00:43 |
| jjmcd | I had no theory about that, as long as there's an answer and it isn't a mystery | 00:43 |
| rudi | And, strapped for time, that seemed like the best solution | 00:43 |
| jjmcd | oooohhhh, I thought I kept the yelp changes out of git except for the table length | 00:44 |
| rudi | Yeah; no mystery | 00:44 |
| rudi | Hmmm. | 00:44 |
| rudi | So the "xyz changes (cont'd)" shouldn't be in there either? | 00:45 |
| jjmcd | I cut the max table size down some in the hopes it might help - didn't | 00:45 |
| jjmcd | Oh yeah, just the tables were shorter | 00:45 |
| rudi | Oh OK | 00:45 |
| jjmcd | I think I was limiting them to like 250 entries or something, shortened to 100 | 00:45 |
| jjmcd | didn't help,.. but I also hoped they might help you build, too | 00:46 |
| rudi | Well, *something* helped me build | 00:46 |
| rudi | I was finally able to build them on my machine without having to SSH into ryanlerch's :) | 00:46 |
| jjmcd | Don't you love a good mystery | 00:46 |
| Sparks | Okay... Moving on... | 00:49 |
| Sparks | #topic Guide Status | 00:49 |
| Sparks | Anyone have any problems with their guide or want to talk about their guide? | 00:49 |
| radsy | i did lots of updates to the selinux user-guide yesterday, thanks to a BZ that slipped through the cracks of my memory | 00:50 |
| radsy | got it up in CVS overnight, it's fine now | 00:50 |
| Sparks | radsy: Cool! | 00:50 |
| Sparks | Anyone else? | 00:51 |
| radsy | basically the removal of setroubleshootd as a permanent daemon | 00:51 |
| Sparks | :) | 00:52 |
| Sparks | #topic New Guides | 00:52 |
| Sparks | Any new guides in the works? | 00:52 |
| Sparks | #topic Status on CC license rollout. | 00:53 |
| Sparks | For those of you that didn't know... | 00:53 |
| Sparks | We have officially changed over to the CC-BY-SA license! | 00:53 |
| Sparks | All of these tasks are complete! | 00:53 |
| Sparks | Thanks to everyone who made this possible... it was truly a team effort. | 00:53 |
| Sparks | #topic All other business | 00:54 |
| Sparks | And with six minutes left... does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? | 00:54 |
| radsy | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=534047 ? :) | 00:55 |
| buggbot | Bug 534047: high, low, ---, richard, ASSIGNED, All users get to install software on a machine they do not have the root password to | 00:55 |
| radsy | i'm starting to think we might want to wait for the dust to settle | 00:55 |
| radsy | security response team are trying to find out if it will be reverted | 00:56 |
| radsy | nobody knows it seems... | 00:56 |
| Sparks | radsy: IMHO we need to get the word out that right now the vulnerability exists. | 00:56 |
| radsy | your call | 00:56 |
| Sparks | if admins/owners don't know that there is a change then they are assuming that they are protected. | 00:57 |
| Sparks | but, of course, that is my opinion... | 00:57 |
| radsy | we do have a lot of hits on the RN right now, being so close after release | 00:57 |
| Sparks | Yeah | 00:57 |
| radsy | i guess it can't hurt, quick enough to pull if needed | 00:58 |
| Sparks | anyone have any thoughts on how Docs should handle the PK ordeal within the next 24-hours? | 00:58 |
| Sparks | I'm assuming that within 72-hours we'll know more and can stand down more. | 00:58 |
| Sparks | radsy: ya... we can get text up and down very quickly | 00:58 |
| rudi | Well, we could add a note about the *existence* of the issue right now | 00:58 |
| Sparks | rudi: Yeah, that's basically what I'm thinking right now | 00:59 |
| rudi | Even if we don't have a suggested fix | 00:59 |
| rudi | I kinda think that if there were a fix out there that most people could implement, we would have heard about it by now... | 00:59 |
| radsy | and mention it's still in contention | 00:59 |
| rudi | radsy +1 | 00:59 |
| Sparks | yep | 01:00 |
| Sparks | Okay... it is the end of our hour. Anything else to discuss before we close? | 01:00 |
| radsy | nice timing :) | 01:00 |
| Sparks | Thanks everyone for coming tonight! | 01:01 |
| Sparks | #endmeeting | 01:01 |