From Fedora Project Wiki
This meeting was held in IRC Freenode #fedora-design at 1630 UTC to discuss the state of the website redesign process and the mockups created by the Design team. The meeting was open to all community members as posted on FAB here and here.
#fedora-design log
| stickster | caillon: dgilmore: jwb: mmcgrath: spot: mdomsch: glezos: notting: ping, meeting time | 27 Aug 12:30 |
|---|---|---|
| jwb | LET'S DO IT | 27 Aug 12:30 |
| notting | 27 Aug 12:30 | |
| * notting is here | 27 Aug 12:30 | |
| stickster | mizmo: ping to you too | 27 Aug 12:30 |
| stickster | :-)' | 27 Aug 12:30 |
| * stickster notes that poelcat is on vacation this week and completely off the intartubez | 27 Aug 12:31 | |
| dgilmore | 27 Aug 12:31 | |
| * dgilmore is here | 27 Aug 12:31 | |
| mmcgrath | 27 Aug 12:31 | |
| * mmcgrath here | 27 Aug 12:31 | |
| stickster | glezos may not make it, he's in transit | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| jwb | stickster, i'm envious | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| stickster | Anyone seen mdomsch? | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| stickster | HAHA | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| stickster | speak of the devil and he appeareth! | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| stickster | That was just perfect timing, mdomsch | 27 Aug 12:31 |
| mdomsch | pointed ears heard the cry | 27 Aug 12:32 |
| stickster | :-) | 27 Aug 12:32 |
| nirik | 27 Aug 12:32 | |
| * nirik is hanging around in the back to heckle. | 27 Aug 12:32 | |
| stickster | nirik: In the finest of traditions! | 27 Aug 12:32 |
| stickster | OK, seems like everyone's here. | 27 Aug 12:32 |
| stickster | The Board is holding a meeting here today in place of our normal conf-call | 27 Aug 12:32 |
| stickster | So that we can talk about the current mockups that mizmo has put together for spins.fp.o, and get.fp.o | 27 Aug 12:33 |
| stickster | We delayed a half-hour out of deference to our host mizmo so she'd have a chance to get food and thus not pass out partway thru the meeting :-) | 27 Aug 12:34 |
| stickster | Let me dig up URLs for the latest mockups | 27 Aug 12:34 |
| stickster | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png | 27 Aug 12:34 |
| stickster | That's the latest spins.fp.o mockup -- what I call a "hub" sometimes for shorthand | 27 Aug 12:34 |
| stickster | The latest get.fp.o mockup is here: | 27 Aug 12:35 |
| stickster | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 12:35 |
| mmcgrath | the getfp.o page makes me want to play super mario brother. | 27 Aug 12:35 |
| stickster | Before we get to looking at the mockups themselves, let's spend a few minutes talking about requirements | 27 Aug 12:35 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: That was one of them :-D | 27 Aug 12:35 |
| stickster | About a month ago we started by setting out some information on the FAB list such as our purpose | 27 Aug 12:36 |
| stickster | and laying out the things we wanted to see out of a redesign | 27 Aug 12:37 |
| stickster | Something we realized early on was that we needed to do a better job of organizing choice site-wide | 27 Aug 12:37 |
| stickster | So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences | 27 Aug 12:38 |
| stickster | We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing | 27 Aug 12:38 |
| stickster | and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora | 27 Aug 12:39 |
| mmcgrath | uh-oh | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| mmcgrath | oh, she's back | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| mmcgrath | :) | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| stickster | and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| stickster | I wrote a big summary of this a couple days ago to FAB, so hopefully this is kind of a recap | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| mizmo | So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences | 27 Aug 12:40 |
| mizmo | sorry, i dont know what is going on w the network | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| jwb | 27 Aug 12:41 | |
| * jwb wonders if stickster has a thesaurus open | 27 Aug 12:41 | |
| stickster | So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| stickster | We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| stickster | and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| stickster | and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| stickster | mizmo: Does that catch you up? | 27 Aug 12:41 |
| mizmo | yes but ive never heard of the word concomitantly before lol | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| jwb | me either :) | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| stickster | That's what comes of having my first job be in a law office :-D | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| stickster | "alongside" | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| caillon | it's not as dirty as it sounds | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| stickster | caillon: I suppose it depends on where you work :- | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| stickster | :-) | 27 Aug 12:42 |
| spot | 27 Aug 12:42 | |
| * spot stops googling it | 27 Aug 12:42 | |
| mizmo | so should i post the mocks i did this morning? most are pencil sketches but i started work on a shiny updated details page for the kde spin too | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| stickster | <dangerfield>No respect!</dangerfield> | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| stickster | mizmo: That would be great | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| stickster | mizmo: I posted some URLs earlier but a refresh is much appreciated | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| mizmo | kk so here's a in-progress spin details mock featuring kde http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| mizmo | then ive got a set of sketches | 27 Aug 12:43 |
| * stickster notes that mchua_mtg was kind enough to put together https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 for us | 27 Aug 12:43 | |
| mizmo | to represent #4 'more options' on this page http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| stickster | Whoa, I dig the sub-branding | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_activity-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:44 |
| mizmo | so the idea is that they're tabs of the same page.... if you click on "view full list of options" - http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 12:45 |
| mizmo | right now you'd go to the format tab | 27 Aug 12:45 |
| drago01 | doesn't the "Intel compat" results into "but does it run on amd" or "does it run on my via nano" kind of confusion? | 27 Aug 12:45 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= if you click on each of the formats / arch /desktop / format then it'd bring you to the corresponding tab on that page | 27 Aug 12:45 |
| drago01 | *result | 27 Aug 12:45 |
| mizmo | drago01: yeh im not sure the best wording for that | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mizmo | there is some space below the arch and above the individual downloads to have some exlanation | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| notting | so more options != spins page? | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| stickster | mizmo: Ah, so the "Other options" box on get.fp.o is aligned with these new tabbed pages | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mizmo | so maybe the heading could be '32-bit' and underneath we list out examples of that | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So you actually need 2 clicks to get to the spins page using the "more options" link? | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mdomsch | I agree these are great top-level choosers | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: don't worry, it's one click to get to kde | 27 Aug 12:46 |
| mizmo | notting: im not sure yet, this is how it shook out so far, it's two clicks | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mdomsch | thoughts on helping users choose download methods? | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mdomsch | torrent, mirror, metalink, ? | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mizmo | notting: so if you want a desktop spin u go to the desktops tab, if you want an activity-based spin (FEL, education) u go to the activity tab | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: yeh i haven't addressed that yet | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: i was thinking once i get these into inkscape playing around with either having a dropdown download button for that | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| notting | mizmo: as opposed to just having a more raw spins.fp.o listing? | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| stickster | mizmo: Maybe it would help to start by walking us through the flow here | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| mmcgrath | How feasible is it going to be to get this all done prior to the F12 launch? | 27 Aug 12:47 |
| stickster | Can we do that before we start diving into everything else? | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, sounds good | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: and/or maybe having a sidebar in the right hand side to point to the mirrors portal and the torrents portal etc | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | and what i mean by dropdown download button... one sec | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mdomsch | mirrors portal really isn't ideal, it could use some love too, but that's for another day | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | oh poo i can't find the example im looking for | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| * stickster is trying to understand what happens when someone types "get.fp.o" into their browser. | 27 Aug 12:48 | |
| mizmo | mdomsch: yes absolutely | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | stickster: sure i can start a walkthrough | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | okay | 27 Aug 12:48 |
| mizmo | so im an experienced fedora user | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| brunowolff | I would find it hard to write a promo for the games spin that made it sound as important as the filler text provided for KDE. | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mdomsch | do we think people will understand the "tabs are different ways to slice the same data" principle? | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| stickster | brunowolff: Hold off for just a moment, let's have mizmo walk us through stuff. | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mizmo | and i want the x86_64 version of the KDE spin | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mizmo | i know what i want | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mizmo | so i go to www.fedoraproject.org, just cuz about 50% of respondents to my survey said thats what they do (and they're all experienced peeps) | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mizmo | here's what i see | 27 Aug 12:49 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | hmm nice big download button! but it's marked as 32-bit. not what i want. I click on 'more options' | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | alternatively, i click on 'download' in the top nav bar | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | if i click 'more options' | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | i land here | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| caillon | my only concern is if a "new" user clicks onto one of the tabs and gets sent to this page with a lot of (in their eyes, confusing) information, how do they get back? | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | if i click 'download' | 27 Aug 12:50 |
| mizmo | i land here http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | again i see the desktop edition is a live media spin, doesn't mention KDE, and is 32-bit. not what i want. i scan the page. | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | oh look, more options. | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mmcgrath | so more options == get.fedoraproject.org ? | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | oh look, it mentions KDE> | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | no, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= get.fpo | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | although we could move the url to point to the other | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | depends if we want noobs to go to get.fpo | 27 Aug 12:51 |
| mizmo | i wouldn't expect a noob would know the url already | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | so maybe thats a good idea mmcgrath to point it to more options | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mmcgrath | ah, ok. so both get.fp.o and (www.)fp.o have a download button and a more options button? | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: I think that's right, yes | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | yep | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | so you can get to more options in one click from the front page | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | which means, Kevin_Kofler , you can get to KDE in two clicks | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | anyhow ill continue my little tale of adventure and excitement | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| stickster | :-) | 27 Aug 12:52 |
| mizmo | so http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= i see KDE mentioned in the more options box and i see x86_64 hmm | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | i decide i click on KDE. | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | i get brought here: | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | oh look look at that, a 64-bit KDE download right there. score. | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | so that's my experienced user walkthrough. | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | the noob walkthru, i dont know if i should do? | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| stickster | mizmo: Sure | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | okay | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| mizmo | so i'm susie noobie | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| stickster | Although that's pretty easy I know | 27 Aug 12:53 |
| jwb | wait | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | jwb: sup | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | can we have discussion after walkthrus? | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| thomasj | 27 Aug 12:54 | |
| * thomasj has a question as well | 27 Aug 12:54 | |
| jwb | i ahve a question on this one though... | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | can it wait? it'll take me 2 min | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | to do susie noob | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| thomasj | sure | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | kk | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mccann | hey mizmo looking at your arch diag. another page we want is the initial homepage for each spin | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | so im susienoobie, my friend tells me about fedora, oh wow, it's so awesome. she sends me a link, fedoraproject.org | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | i take a look | 27 Aug 12:54 |
| mizmo | there's a big ol' 'download button' - but that's moving too fast for me. i'm not ready to commit | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | i see a 'more information' link so i click that | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | and i get brought here | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | oh look at this, i dont even have to format my hard drive. nice. okay ill give it a try. click | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mdomsch | page1 is fp.o? | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| stickster | (reassuring text that it won't kill my system) <-- cool | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | i get brought here | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| stickster | mdomsch: correct | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png | 27 Aug 12:55 |
| mizmo | nice ill keep this page open as i try this thing out | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | okay | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | im done with walkthrus | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | so mccann to your question, yeh the spin homepages are gonna be off spins.fpo | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | here's the spins.fpo front page mock so far | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| jwb | when you say "experienced user" do you mean someone experienced with computing, linux, fedora, or all of the above? | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | well | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mmcgrath | jwb: I think she means someone that knows what they want, or at least thinks they do. | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mizmo | jwb, exactly what we've been discussing on the mailing list | 27 Aug 12:56 |
| mccann | mizmo: i mean the initial home page for the browser after install | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mizmo | newbie == has experience with computers, is technical, doesn't necessarily use linux all the time or may not have used it before. or they may use a different distro but never tried fedora. | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mccann | which for the desktop we'd like to have apps and themes and stuff there | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mizmo | experienced user == already a fedora user, knows what they are doing | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mdomsch | spin directory: clicking in a box takes you to the spin's page? Clicking "download now" does? | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| jwb | mizmo, hm. your walkthru is slightly flawed with that definition | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mizmo | mccann: i have not mocked that up. it's not in the requirements right now and ive already got a LOT of mockups on my plate here :( | 27 Aug 12:57 |
| mizmo | jwb: how so | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| jwb | but i guess that isn't really important at all, now that i think about it. the walkthru fits other definitions just fine | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Shouldn't at least the spins page say somewhere the Desktop spin uses GNOME? | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| mizmo | jwb: i want to know how it doesnt fit | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| stickster | mizmo: I think experienced users here is not necessarily a group comprised of *just* Fedora users, right? | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| caillon | also, i think we want to auto-detect the user's arch if possible and offer that by default to the user. | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| mccann | so a few comments on the default get page... | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| mizmo | stickster: i believe the definition i was furnished involved not fedora user | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| mccann | we should support usb installs too | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| jwb | mizmo, because someone experienced with fedora will probably just go directly to download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/linux/<path to ISO they want> | 27 Aug 12:58 |
| jwb | (or their mirror of choice) | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| drago01 | caillon: does not really work you migth be running 32bit firefox on a 64bit os | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mizmo | jwb: actually my survey showed that is not actually the case | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| thomasj | mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages? | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| drago01 | (windows) | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mmcgrath | jwb: I don't do that | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mizmo | has anyone here seen the getting fedora survey i did? | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| thomasj | Do i have to walk trough some mirrors? | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mccann | we may want to look into having an xpi plugin that can assist with the download and cd creation | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| jwb | as i said, it doesn't really matter. the walkthru stands on it's own | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mizmo | here pretty graphs http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/ | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mdomsch | mccann, that's a "format" choice on the format page | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mizmo | http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-result-discussion/ | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| caillon | drago01, I think that would be an okay case to miss. | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| stickster | mizmo: I've seen it, it was a smart thing to do | 27 Aug 12:59 |
| mdomsch | assuming we have something to offer to burn to a usb key | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| mmcgrath | perhaps we (as people in the meeting) should just stick with stuff that is really important to them. Stuff that's blocker status or near-blocker status. | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| mmcgrath | lots of cooks, small kitchen, not a lot of time. | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| mizmo | by far, the most popular method for folks who are readers of either planet fedora or planet gnome is to start at www.fpo and go from there to download fedora. | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| drago01 | caillon: you would miss every case where the user doesn't know already that he wants 64bit because he uses it | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| caillon | drago01, we're going to offer x86-32 as the default otherwise, so it's not like we'd be losing anything | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| mizmo | mmcgrath: more like one driver in a clown car o_O | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| caillon | but the default would be 32bit anyway | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| caillon | if we don't auto-detect | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| drago01 | caillon: ok that makes sense | 27 Aug 13:00 |
| dgilmore | caillon: atu detecting what to offer based on browser is kinda dumb | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| mizmo | i think that features like autodetection should probably wait until we've got the basics down first. | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| nirik | caillon: the failure case there is if you are just using a 64bit machine to download and were planning on installing on a 32 bit machine. You get something that you can't use. ;( | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| mizmo | we don't have to get every great idea in here at once. | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| mizmo | we can take an iterative approach. | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| jwb | yes | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| mizmo | mmcgrath: and to your earlier question, yes, i am very scared about the amount of time we have left here. | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| caillon | nirik, if you know enough to do that, i think you know the difference between the bits and can change your choice. | 27 Aug 13:01 |
| dgilmore | nirik: or your on a ppc box but need intel for the new machine you just got | 27 Aug 13:02 |
| mizmo | dgilmore: no idea is a dumb idea. :) however feasible or whatever an idea is it can spark a new awesome idea | 27 Aug 13:02 |
| jwb | dgilmore, we are not targeting non-x86 arches anyway | 27 Aug 13:02 |
| mizmo | thomasj: you mentioned u had a question before? did it end up getting answered? | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| thomasj | no | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| mizmo | thomasj: sup? | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| dgilmore | jwb: right, but there are alot of ways for it to fail | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| thomasj | mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages? | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| drago01 | minior nitpick "256MB" is definitly not enough for the desktop spin | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| dgilmore | but regardless | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| caillon | dgilmore, besides, the browser can get what your system arch is, not just the arch of the browser, afaik | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| mizmo | thomasj: right now it's not in the mockup but i would think maybe this would be an appropriate page for it: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| mizmo | thomasj: what do you think? | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| dgilmore | caillon: no it doesnt | 27 Aug 13:03 |
| mizmo | drago01: all those requirements i grabbed fomr the desktop guide for f11. | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| caillon | dgilmore, i'm not talking about useragent | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, agreed on format tab | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| thomasj | mizmo, yep, would be a good place, thanks | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| drago01 | mizmo: ok, but that does not mean that those aren't wrong | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| mizmo | thomasj: from the survey it turns out quite a few people use that to grab fedora so i think it's good to offer it up | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| mizmo | drago01: yeh but what im saying is, i dont do the docs, we should fix the docs first | 27 Aug 13:04 |
| mizmo | drago01: maybe 3 or 4 other people have pointed out the 256 mb to me :( | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| drago01 | mizmo: yeah | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| mizmo | but if that's what the docs say... right? | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| jwb | this is a mock up anyway. move on? | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| stickster | mizmo: drago01: Good points -- drago01, can you chase that down with Docs and file a bug? | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| thomasj | mizmo, yes, i know a lot of experienced linux user use it. So thanks for putting it on it. | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| drago01 | stickster: sure, why not | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| stickster | drago01: Thanks, excellent | 27 Aug 13:05 |
| stickster | drago01: I'm guessing the Installation and Installation Quick Start Guides are the relevant pieces | 27 Aug 13:06 |
| mizmo | so there's a lot of people who know what they're doing when they download fedora who go straight to a particular portal (mirrors.fpo. torrents.fpo, etc) to get it | 27 Aug 13:06 |
| mizmo | so i think having a consistent naming scheme and maybe even somewhere, a directory of all those portals would be good | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| mizmo | and branding those sites, altho it may be out of scope for f12 | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| * stickster agrees this is a good f13target | 27 Aug 13:07 | |
| mizmo | generally for our website it might be good to have a site that shows all the fedora subdomains | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| mizmo | kind of like google and yahoo do | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| stickster | "site map"? | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| mizmo | yeh | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| mizmo | exactly | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| stickster | mizmo: This might make a good subject to round up at FUDCon | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| mizmo | so those experienced users if for somereason forget the url but know it exists, they have a play to look it up | 27 Aug 13:07 |
| stickster | i.e. in November gather the stuff, check our heads at FUDCon and maybe write up a schedule for providing the necessary pages | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | so one thing i uncovered in the survey that 6% of 78 users had ever gone to spins.fpo at all | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | to get fedora | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | which is why i did the mocks with the tabs the way i did this morning | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | i dont know if that's kosher or not tho | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | what do you think? | 27 Aug 13:08 |
| mizmo | i think we need to do a lot more socialization / marketing of spins before people go straight there | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| stickster | mizmo: I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that there's not much there to attract anyone... it's basically just a torrent listing. | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| thomasj | 27 Aug 13:09 | |
| * thomasj likes the tabs | 27 Aug 13:09 | |
| mizmo | stickster: yeh but more people went to mirrors.fpo and torrents.fpo than spins.fpo,and they're basically of the same, uh, design :) | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| jwb | anything would be an improvement over the current spins.fp.org | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| stickster | mizmo: It might be that any "hub" idea that's just a list -- whether it's pretty or not -- may not do much for people | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| jwb | mizmo, that goes back to what i said about people going directly to the site they know of | 27 Aug 13:09 |
| jwb | download.f.r.c or mirrors (or torrent) | 27 Aug 13:10 |
| mmcgrath | mizmo: are the tabs going to be a time killer? | 27 Aug 13:10 |
| mizmo | mmcgrath: i hope not :( | 27 Aug 13:10 |
| stickster | mizmo: So are you saying the tabbed page might make just as good a spins.fp.o page as the 8- or 10-block list version? | 27 Aug 13:10 |
| mizmo | stickster: well i liked ben bockel's idea that there's desktop spins vs 'activity' spins | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | stickster: the tabs let me split that out | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | the spins directory... i dunno... why would someone want to go there | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | i just struggle with why a spin | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| stickster | So you can use taxonomies that make sense to people | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mmcgrath | mizmo: yeah, I like that to. | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | yeh | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | i mean | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | i could do that on spins.fpo | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | but, then it seems weird to split spins vs arch & format across two different sites | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| drago01 | stickster: bug filed | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| stickster | "I want to do <XXX>" or "I want architecture <XXX>" are completely different approaches | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | so i dont know if we should drop this spins.fpo redesign or not | 27 Aug 13:11 |
| mizmo | stickster: but what do you want to do if you're interested in kde or xfce? they have no activity goal | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| stickster | mizmo: Well, not dro the redesign | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| stickster | *drop | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| mizmo | stickster: the only reason you would ever want them is to be different | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| stickster | mizmo: But rather, instead of doing just "a prettier list" we're doing something that supports the user's intentions and decision points | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| mdomsch | 27 Aug 13:12 | |
| * mdomsch likes http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png as a frontpage for spins.fp.o | 27 Aug 13:12 | |
| mmcgrath | drago01: # ? | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| jwb | XFCE = "I want something small and fast" | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| stickster | i.e. "I want to base my decision making on the following factors:" | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| jwb | KDE = "I want KDE" | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| drago01 | mmcgrath: 519753 | 27 Aug 13:12 |
| notting | mizmo: i just want to not send people to a torrent listing, ever :) | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| spot | SPARC = "I am possessed by the devil" | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mizmo | so uhh | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| jwb | (sorry, i don't know what activity/usage KDE normally gets associated with) | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| stickster | notting: +1 | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mizmo | did anybody see the spins details mock i did | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| stickster | mizmo: I did | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mdomsch | recall, part of why spins.fp.o is just a torrent listing, is because we linked 'spins' and 'download methods' inappropriately | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mizmo | k lemme post it again for referencehttp://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mdomsch | now that we can serve spins via other download methods | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| mizmo | i think it's important for spins to have a homebase with a subdomain they can point people to | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| stickster | mizmo: Wait | 27 Aug 13:13 |
| stickster | mizmo: Before we leave the "hub" topic | 27 Aug 13:14 |
| thomasj | mizmo, +1 | 27 Aug 13:14 |
| stickster | Do we have any general agreement that the tabbed (multi-dimensional) approach is going to be more effective than the approach shown at http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png ? | 27 Aug 13:14 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE = I want a fully configurable desktop | 27 Aug 13:15 |
| jwb | Kevin_Kofler, ok | 27 Aug 13:15 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: you don't *do* 'fully configurable desktop' | 27 Aug 13:15 |
| * stickster believes the answer to that question is yes, the tabbed approach is going to support people who are making decisions based on a lot of differnt factors | 27 Aug 13:15 | |
| drago01 | mizmo: "want to customize the desktop do dead" | 27 Aug 13:15 |
| drago01 | *to | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| notting | the tabbed approach may be better, yes | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| stickster | Board members: what say you? | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| thomasj | drago01, matter of opinion | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| stickster | notting: Thanks | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| spot | i like the tabs. | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| jwb | stickster, i agree the tabbed approach is cleaner | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| drago01 | thomasj: sure | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| notting | stickster: not sure how it scales down to non-desktop browsers. also not sure we care :) | 27 Aug 13:16 |
| stickster | notting: You mean, how does this page look in elinks? | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| mdomsch | tabs++ | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| drago01 | notting: you don't download fedora on your phone .. do you? | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| mizmo | if someone wants to download an iso for fedora on their iphone...... they're weird | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| notting | drago01: i hope not | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| stickster | "Help, I'm stuck at runlevel 3, I need Fedora!" | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| stickster | :-) | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| stickster | OK, it sounds like the tabs win by a landslide. | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| mclasen | 27 Aug 13:17 | |
| * mclasen thinks that anything that forces a 10-way choice onto people who just want to 'get fedora' is not a winning approach | 27 Aug 13:17 | |
| dgilmore | 27 Aug 13:17 | |
| * dgilmore like the tabbed approach | 27 Aug 13:17 | |
| mizmo | i care about text-based brwosers and i do not think theres anything about this design that wouldn't work | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| mizmo | mclasen: no one is forcing a choice | 27 Aug 13:17 |
| stickster | mclasen: Note that this page is not where uninformed users will land. | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| jwb | mclasen, which is why this is the spins page, not the main page... | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| mizmo | mclasen: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| mclasen | ok, I did not know that | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| mclasen | thanks | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| jwb | too many URLs flying around | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| stickster | mclasen: We covered that earlier but I'll be happy to send you the log | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| mizmo | mclasen: is that mockup okay with you? that's the proposed new www.fpo download page | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| mclasen | no need | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| stickster | mizmo: Sorry I made us back up there temporarily | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| jwb | maybe we could have big diagonal labels across them so they are easily identified as get.fp.o and spins.fp.o, etc | 27 Aug 13:18 |
| stickster | mizmo: You were about to go on to talk about subdomains | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| jwb | but a bit late now | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mizmo | jwb: thats an interesting idea | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mizmo | jwb: i do think the subdomains *maybe* could be branded like that | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mdomsch | with the tabs, do we _have_ a spins.fp.o ? | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| jwb | mizmo, i just meant for the purposes of this discussion | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mizmo | and i like the diagonal label idea it might work better with the main fedora branding than making sub brands for each subdomain | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mizmo | ohhh | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| jwb | mizmo, so i could correlate which .png went with which page | 27 Aug 13:19 |
| mizmo | i think in general it might be cool on the pages themselves lol | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| jwb | ok, that's fine too | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| mizmo | jwb: i think i put circled numbers on the sketches at least | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| jwb | i'm glad to have contributed a creative idea, even if it was accidental :) | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| stickster | mdomsch: I think the idea is that (1) spins.fp.o points to that tabbed page, and (2) the workflow we engineer doesn't rely on a spins.fp.o site, period -- (1) would be to cover the dead link | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| thomasj | 27 Aug 13:20 | |
| * thomasj has to leave, sadly, but he wants to thank mizmo for her hard work and the amazing design. I will read the log later. | 27 Aug 13:20 | |
| mizmo | mdomsch: you could drop spins.fpo and stick with the desktop tab and the activities tab, but i like spins.fpo too because it gives you more room to have details pages for each individual spin | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| mizmo | however | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| mizmo | overall do we expect the number of spins to grow overtime more than it has been? | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| mizmo | thomasj: thanks :) :) | 27 Aug 13:20 |
| * stickster shuts up since mizmo has a different idea that's probably better | 27 Aug 13:21 | |
| jwb | mizmo, the growth rate has declined somewhat | 27 Aug 13:21 |
| jwb | i wouldn't say it won't grow though | 27 Aug 13:21 |
| * stickster rips the duct tape off | 27 Aug 13:21 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | At least the Moblin packager plans to have a spin for F13. | 27 Aug 13:21 |
| stickster | true | 27 Aug 13:21 |
| mdomsch | mizmo's draft of spins.fp.o (with all the boxes) covers the content that's now split across 2 tabs (activity and desktop) | 27 Aug 13:22 |
| spot | 27 Aug 13:22 | |
| * spot notes that mizmo is temporarily afk | 27 Aug 13:22 | |
| stickster | mdomsch: That's one reason the tabs might work better | 27 Aug 13:22 |
| mizmo | sorry i had to get a cake | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mdomsch | so pointing the url spins.fp.o/ at a page needs to be one or the other | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mdomsch | or add a [spins] tab that addresses all of them | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mdomsch | but that's kind of horky | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| notting | mizmo: bring enough to share? | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mizmo | sorry :( | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| jwb | the cake is a lie | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mizmo | [ * ] | <= here u go virtual cake | 27 Aug 13:23 |
| mizmo | well if we expect spins to grow | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | i mean | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | there were originally some really grand plans for spins.fpo | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | where it would integrate wevisor | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | and it would have lots and lots and lots of spins such that it would be categorized and search based | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | but | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | we've never had enough spins to justify an idea like that and also | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mdomsch | 'suse studio'... | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | i think we dont have the people working on the wevisor stuff | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: yes exactly | 27 Aug 13:24 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: what we could do for f12 is leave spins as is, go with these tabs | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| mizmo | and do spins cleanup to look like this new mock for f13 | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, good plan | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| mizmo | thing is tho | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| stickster | That assumes that we have someone building new functionality (a spinner app) at the same time, right? | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| stickster | in the f13 cycle, I mena. | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| stickster | *mean | 27 Aug 13:25 |
| mdomsch | stickster, not really | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mizmo | we got 6% of survey people going to it at all, again they're experienced fedora or foss folks. i dont think people feel they need to go there | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, I'm fine with not having a spins.fp.o URL we advertise anymore | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mizmo | maybe it's not needed | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mdomsch | but I kind of like the "showcase" effect that your mockup provided | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mizmo | yeh | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| nirik | 27 Aug 13:26 | |
| * nirik has been off working... but I just want a page I can point people to who want the Xfce spin, etc... | 27 Aug 13:26 | |
| mizmo | i think for sure | 27 Aug 13:26 |
| mizmo | individual spins need details pages | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | exactly what nirik points out | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| stickster | mizmo: We could still have the showcase widget (interviews, whatever) underenath the "by-dimension" listing, right? | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | and i think maybe spinsfpo is the best place | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | stickster: yeh we could | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, so how do we get to that showcase spinsfpo from the chooser tabs? | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: well the thing about the tabs is they are about GETTING fedora | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | getting the spins | 27 Aug 13:27 |
| mizmo | they are ISO focused | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mizmo | the thing about spins.fpo as mocked up is they're about the spins themselves. not just an iso. a community, stuff you can do, etc | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mdomsch | good point | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mizmo | so i think | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| nirik | 27 Aug 13:28 | |
| * nirik would also like the spins detail pages to tell how to install that desktop/whatever on a existing install. | 27 Aug 13:28 | |
| spot | perhaps a "learn more about Fedora spins" link? | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mizmo | it's weird to mush !get-an-iso stuff into the get-an-iso page | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| stickster | It would be confusing to just stuff more links in there, yeah | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mizmo | spot: yeh i think maybe | 27 Aug 13:28 |
| mclasen | 27 Aug 13:28 | |
| * mclasen agrees about not mushing | 27 Aug 13:28 | |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | see in the right column | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | i listed 'live media' as a 'format' but then really just push you over to spins.fpo | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mdomsch | longevity on these getfedora* pages: we'll need a separate batch of them for each release | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: oh gosh yes how do people get older versions of fedora | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | thats not addressed in these at all | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | do we need an 'archive' tab or maybe a 'archive' link just in the footer? | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| jwb | ugh | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| mizmo | and say we had these mocks implemented now | 27 Aug 13:29 |
| * stickster raises a controversial point, that we don't want to over-promote old Fedora. | 27 Aug 13:29 | |
| mizmo | they're f11 pointing | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | when f12 comes out | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | we move them from www.fpo/get to www.fpo/f11/get | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| jwb | stickster, agreed | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | stickster: yeh thats why im saying put it in the footer or something | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| caillon | yeah, i think that's basically what mozilla does | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | not too prominent, but accessible | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| * stickster thinks a single (de-emphasized) pointer back to archive.fp.o would suffice | 27 Aug 13:30 | |
| stickster | mizmo: Right on | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | kk | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mizmo | so i definitely need to update mocks to reflect that | 27 Aug 13:30 |
| mdomsch | at least, get-prerelease/ is separate from the get-current/ | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| Kevin_Kofler | We shouldn't link old Fedora at all. | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: what do you mean by old | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| mizmo | not latest, but still supported? | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| mizmo | un supported? | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| mizmo | both? | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| Kevin_Kofler | At most we could have a get-previous (like get-prerelease), but why would we link an already EOL release? | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| jwb | i don't think that's what we were talking about | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| mizmo | ok so youre assumed old == unsupported, so what about f10 | 27 Aug 13:31 |
| jwb | i think we were talking about e.g. F10 | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mizmo | we're at f11 now but f10 is still supported | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But do we want people to download it now? | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mizmo | do our hardware reqs go up over time with releases? | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, somewhat yes | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| caillon | Kevin_Kofler, yes, people may want to do that if they have an i386 only machine | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mclasen | but once Fx+1 is released, we don't really want to push people to install Fx | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: so we may want to keep at least live media from F7 on available | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| caillon | Kevin_Kofler, or if they want to test something | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| stickster | I think we want as many people going to the latest as possible. We shouldn't completely hide our archive, but it should get as little eyeballing as possible | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| caillon | or if they need a rescue cd | 27 Aug 13:32 |
| mdomsch | stickster++ | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| stickster | caillon: Kevin_Kofler: Or if they need to reproduce results | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| caillon | or have an F9 box and want to do incremental upgrades | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | mclasen: we could treat it with sort of a historical archive kind of thing | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| caillon | right | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | i dunno | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| * stickster notes he had to grab a F9 just the other day to try and help with a bug | 27 Aug 13:33 | |
| mizmo | http://browsers.evolt.org/ <= this site has saved my behind a number of times | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| caillon | there are many reasons to want to download older versions, so they should be around | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | but i guess browsers and versioning makes more sense than os and versioning | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| caillon | but it's not like we have to prominently feature them | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | yeh | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| stickster | Right, maybe just a note in the footer/gutter for "Archive" | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| stickster | or "Archived releases" | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | im saying, just a little thingy in the footer, is all | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| stickster | mizmo: +2 | 27 Aug 13:33 |
| mizmo | no tab for it | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| mdomsch | agreed - no tab | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| caillon | definitely not | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| mizmo | i know i mentioned that as an idea before but as soon as i hit enter on that i thought, crap bad idea | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| mizmo | kk | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| caillon | i probably wouldn't mind if all it linked to was just an ftp directory | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| jwb | we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)? | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| mizmo | caillon: thats a great idea :) | 27 Aug 13:34 |
| mizmo | caillon: less work for me too lol | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| stickster | caillon: http://archive.fedoraproject.org/pub/archive/ <--mizmo | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| nirik | 27 Aug 13:35 | |
| * nirik suggests if they go to EOL releases, they include a disclaimer. | 27 Aug 13:35 | |
| mdomsch | archive includes a disclaimer already | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| stickster | nirik: There's one on that page I just linked, as luck would have it :-) | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| nirik | yep. | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| jwb | stickster, that URL doesn't have F10 (or even F9) | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| stickster | jwb: Oh, you're right | 27 Aug 13:35 |
| mizmo | i didnt know archive.fpo existed! hot damn | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| mizmo | stickster: that url is perfect | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| stickster | 9 just hasn't been moved there yet, probably because mmcgrath hasn't run low enough on space yet | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| jwb | damn is an appropriate word in some context, yes | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| mdomsch | jwb, it's time to move f9 over to there | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| jwb | yes. anyway. back to the topic at hand | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| jwb | ? | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| stickster | 1 | 27 Aug 13:36 |
| mmcgrath | 27 Aug 13:37 | |
| * mmcgrath just hasn't done it yet. | 27 Aug 13:37 | |
| stickster | mmcgrath: np, just noting that things roll in there generally as needed | 27 Aug 13:37 |
| stickster | we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)? | 27 Aug 13:37 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| mizmo | /\ that's it | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| stickster | Is there anything on the spins.fp.o where we don't have a consensus yet, where you need one, mizmo? | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| notting | none above what i mentioned on the list | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| mizmo | there seems to be.... less drama about it than i thoght there would be lol | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| mizmo | notting: i hear you on the grey thing, when we implement it the text will be darker... we'll probably use chunks form the current fpo stylesheet | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| jwb | are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now? | 27 Aug 13:38 |
| mizmo | not sure | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| dgilmore | jwb: i think we should | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| jwb | ok. well i think FESCo needs to decide there, no? | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| mizmo | supported fedoras right now == f10 and f11 | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| * stickster thinks we're going to derail this into a preupgrade debate | 27 Aug 13:39 | |
| mizmo | both are preupgradable | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| mizmo | in the past we had f9 in the fray which i believe was not preupgradable? | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| jwb | stickster, right. something that just caught my eye | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| stickster | F9 was the first to allow it | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| mizmo | kk | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| mdomsch | preupgrade has lots of failure cases yet | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| jwb | mizmo, i think someone that wants to drive that should run it past FESCo | 27 Aug 13:39 |
| mizmo | jwb: should i pull it from the mock? | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| mizmo | and tlel them to get the DVD instead? | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I'm just one FESCo member, but IMHO yes, preupgrade should be the recommended method. | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| stickster | This might be a good question for mclasen | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| stickster | I think preupgrade is the most sensible method we have | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| jwb | mizmo, not necessarily. just be prepared to change the text :) | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Upgrading from the DVD doesn't include updates, so it's a recipe for upgrade path breakage. | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| mclasen | 27 Aug 13:40 | |
| * mclasen missed the question | 27 Aug 13:40 | |
| mizmo | in case it helps, ~20% of the survey respondents said they use preupgrade | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| Kevin_Kofler | E.g. do it for F10->F11 and wham, no more yum! | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| stickster | are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now? | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| Kevin_Kofler | (Well, yum is there, but you have to hack Python search paths to make it work.) | 27 Aug 13:40 |
| mizmo | 63% said they download the DVD (but that might not necessarily be fore upgrade) | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mdomsch | mizmo, regarding the banner artwork on getfpo, I presume that'll be different? | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| jwb | stickster, i thought you said you didn't want to get into that here... | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mizmo | f11 and it's working for me right now | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| stickster | jwb: Yeah, more food for thought | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mdomsch | feels like 2001 XP again | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: for these mockups, ricky and decided we'll try to implement them within the current www.fpo template | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| stickster | jwb: mclasen is on Desktop team obviously, and I had met with a few people, including jrb and skvidal, about the future of preupgrade | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: and do a template refresh for f13 | 27 Aug 13:41 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: since this is a large load, we thought that might help us crank it out quicker | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| mdomsch | ok | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| mclasen | stickster: I'd be more happy to do that if we were confident that it works and has people who look after it | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: the artwork is totally placeholder, if people ike it we can keep it if not we can get something different | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| stickster | mclasen: We can discuss later, JRB had said there might be interest on his team to help | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| Kevin_Kofler | mizmo: You did it right when F11 got released, before the yum update to F10 which made it newer than on the F11 DVD, maybe? | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: no i did it maybe a month after f11 came out | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| jwb | that's sort of offtopic | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| jwb | 27 Aug 13:42 | |
| * jwb herds cats | 27 Aug 13:42 | |
| mizmo | mreeeow | 27 Aug 13:42 |
| jwb | i curse myself for bringing this up | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| jwb | :) | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mizmo | jwb: well i think it's over now? | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| jwb | k | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mizmo | jwb: ill wait on.... fesco.....? or stickster? to figure out if im pushing dvd or preupgrade? | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mdomsch | "Other Options" bullets will match/link to tabs | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mizmo | jwb: either way we gotta get that decision made before translation freeze | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: yep absolutely | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| jwb | right | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: and the all link at the bottom goes to the first tab | 27 Aug 13:43 |
| mmcgrath | 27 Aug 13:43 | |
| * mmcgrath notes he has another meeting in about 15 minutes. | 27 Aug 13:43 | |
| mdomsch | What is the "view full list of options" link to? | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mdomsch | I'm not sure we'll have such | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| jwb | so answering my own previous question, i'm quite happy with -17.png | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mizmo | 27 Aug 13:44 | |
| * mizmo notes the sugar high from cake will probably only last another 15 minutes | 27 Aug 13:44 | |
| mizmo | mdomsch: it'd go to the first tab | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mdomsch | so formats and "full list" are the same then | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mdomsch | ok | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: and the rationale behind that - i made the first tab have the dvd as the most prominent thing, since i thin it was 68% of survey respondents said they get the DVD | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| stickster | caillon: How do you feel about the -17.png mock? | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mizmo | mdomsch: yeh exactly, do you tihnk that works? | 27 Aug 13:44 |
| mdomsch | sure | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| mizmo | kk | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| stickster | mizmo: Good thinking | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| mizmo | stickster: (im glad i did the survey hehe) | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| stickster | :-) | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| stickster | I have to say, I'm pretty happy with -17.png | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| stickster | Especially with the reorganization of the other options, and the tabbed landing page behind them | 27 Aug 13:45 |
| stickster | It's the most sensible construct we've had for decision-making | 27 Aug 13:46 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: what do u think about the tabs thingy? | 27 Aug 13:46 |
| caillon | stickster, i don't think i have any major objections to it. mccann, mclasen? | 27 Aug 13:46 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: also what do you think about this (not finished yet, old FEL refreence i forgot to change lol but maybe you get the idea) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png | 27 Aug 13:47 |
| stickster | "CLICK THIS BUTTON! Oh, are you one of those detail-oriented 'I like to read' people? Great, check this out..." | 27 Aug 13:47 |
| mclasen | caillon: works for me, without the pandas | 27 Aug 13:47 |
| stickster | mclasen: panda-hater ;-) | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| mizmo | mclasen: ... theres no pandas on it | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| stickster | That would have been funnier as "panda hata" | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| mizmo | don't hate the panda, hate the game | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| stickster | lul | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| mccann | caillon: what was the question? meeting is too fast for me | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| mclasen | mizmo: right, thats why I'm happy with it :-) | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| caillon | now i'm picturing a katamari opening scene | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| mizmo | mclasen: ah hehe | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| caillon | mccann, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png any objections? | 27 Aug 13:48 |
| jwb | rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: same question | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Well, the tabs are a fairly good presentation, especially the link directly to the "by desktop" tab from the "more options" box. | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| mizmo | speaking of katamari's opening scene, yes, we could do worse than pandas o_O that king guy is SCARY | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| notting | mizmo: actually, a question now | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| stickster | mizmo: -1 offtopic :-D | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: does it allay any of the concerns you brought up earlier? | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| mizmo | notting: kk shoot | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But I still don't like and will never like the way this is much less prominent than the big GNOME-only "Download Now!" button. | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| notting | mizmo: do 'More download options' and 'View full list of options' go to the same place? | 27 Aug 13:49 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: but you're feeling better about it than you did earlier? | 27 Aug 13:50 |
| mizmo | notting: yeppers | 27 Aug 13:50 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I'd like the listing by desktop to be the main download page. | 27 Aug 13:50 |
| notting | mizmo: do we ned both, then? | 27 Aug 13:50 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: the problem is that by far the most popular download is the DVD | 27 Aug 13:50 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: live media i think was 42%? dvd 68% | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: so i thought it'd be important to make the DVD the first tab | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Then why is the big download link to the live media? | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| mclasen | oh, I think we had a problem with making the dvd very prominent | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| mclasen | mccann ? | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| mizmo | notting: i don't think more than one path is necessarily is a bad thing | 27 Aug 13:51 |
| notting | 27 Aug 13:51 | |
| * notting thinks Kevin_Kofler and mclasen are discussion different screens | 27 Aug 13:51 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | The DVD could use a better way to select a pure KDE desktop, but that's out of the scope of this meeting. | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| mccann | sorry xchat is not displaying my channel correctly... brb | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| mizmo | notting: the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the main download page mirrors the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the front page of www.fpo | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| stickster | Actually, the Live image is far more popular than the DVD when you include all the downloads we track. | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: that's okay, you don't have to answer my question. | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| notting | mizmo: maybe, i just think if you already have an 'other options' box, you don't need the one line of text. but if you're pulling widgetry | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| notting | (i.e., trying to keep a common look and feel) | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| mizmo | stickster: if you aggregate the live media it hink your numbers are going to be off. there is one DVD. there are multiple livemedia. a person could download kde + gnome and that counts as 2 downloads, but they download dvd only counts as 1 | 27 Aug 13:52 |
| mizmo | stickster: unless by live media you mean only the desktop spin | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| mclasen | mccann: saw my earlier question ? | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| Kevin_Kofler | mizmo: To answer your question, I'm still feeling just as bad about the front page and main download page as those still feature GNOME directly through a big direct download button and KDE only through a small link. | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: okay so these tabs do nothing for you. good to know. | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| drago01 | (I don't really like hidding 64bit but this is a good compromise) | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I'm feeling better about the "more options" page, as KDE is no longer lost in the big list of spins. | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| stickster | mizmo: Good point, I'll have to delve into that | 27 Aug 13:53 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So the tabs are an improvement, but they don't and can't solve the main issue. | 27 Aug 13:54 |
| mizmo | stickster: the survey asked people across all live media, do you download live media, and the response was something like 42% | 27 Aug 13:54 |
| mizmo | stickster: and several folks mentioned they download more than one live media | 27 Aug 13:54 |
| Kevin_Kofler | drago01: That's a problem with the "big button" as well. | 27 Aug 13:54 |
| mizmo | drago01: the problem is there's too many dimensions, you cant have them all on one screen without being too cluttered | 27 Aug 13:55 |
| mccann | mclasen: no | 27 Aug 13:55 |
| Kevin_Kofler | mizmo: Well, as you know, that's a premise I already don't agree with. ;-) | 27 Aug 13:55 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: to each his own | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| drago01 | Kevin_Kofler, mizmo : yeah a long list of options is not an option either | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| mclasen | mccann: I said that I think we had a problem with making the dvd prominently available for download, and was asking for you to expand on that | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| rdieter | fwiw, i'm satisfied, modulo bikeshedding about prominence and button sizes | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| mizmo | the pages the dvd is feature on are meant to be for users who know what they want, not new users | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| mizmo | fwiw | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| stickster | I think overall, mizmo, you've produced something that does fit the requirements that we developed | 27 Aug 13:56 |
| mccann | mclasen: the dvd is currently a wasteland by all accounts | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mizmo | thanks rdieter | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mizmo | mccann: i did a survey of users and found 68% download the dvd | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mccann | of course they did | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| stickster | Our goal was to find the right places to primarily feature choice, and the right places to de-emphasize it | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| drago01 | stickster: yeah its way better than what we have now | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mclasen | right, thats the problem | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| Kevin_Kofler | stickster: I think so too, my beef is with the requirements. ;-) | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mccann | dvd sounds better than cd | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mizmo | no | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mccann | and historically we had tons of cds and people went for the dvd instead | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| mizmo | these are planet fedora and planet gnome readers who said this | 27 Aug 13:57 |
| drago01 | hah! one more reason to drop cds! | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| caillon | Kevin_Kofler, :-) | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mccann | that doesn't change the fact that the dvd is a wasteland | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mizmo | multiple people stated they felt the dvd was a safer way to upgrade | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Are the planets really a good sample of users? | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| stickster | Kevin_Kofler: Which is why we had a discussion open on the FAB list about them. | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: they are a good sample of users who are in the community and know what they want | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| drago01 | mizmo: downloading the livecd does not make sense if you want to upgrade | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: which is a great sample for creating a design that caters to our more advanced users | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mccann | the dvd doesn't make any sense in a "spin" world | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: which is what the more options pages ar emeant to do | 27 Aug 13:58 |
| Kevin_Kofler | That makes sense. | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| mizmo | mccann: there are a lot of people who consider spins only to be demoware | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: Feel free to hang here, although I know you have another meeting to attend | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| mclasen | mizmo: that is a serious problem | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| notting | the DVD spin has no target, which makes it somewhat bad | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| mclasen | since the spins are what we are designing, the dvd is just a byproduct | 27 Aug 13:59 |
| stickster | The DVD is basically the equivalent of "part of the release tree on a disc" | 27 Aug 14:00 |
| mizmo | i can try to pull up the specific concerns voiced | 27 Aug 14:00 |
| mmcgrath | stickster: I am | 27 Aug 14:00 |
| mmcgrath | I have no real pain points with what remains except for time constraint worries | 27 Aug 14:00 |
| * stickster is a little lost what we're trying to solve with the current discussion | 27 Aug 14:00 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | Yeah, the DVD feels more and more like "take the contents of the Desktop/GNOME and KDE spins, throw in a couple random extra packages and stuff an installer on it". | 27 Aug 14:00 |
| mizmo | "I rarely get the Spins as what I want is on the DVD and then net access. If I am using a spin.. its one I am building myself for a project that has no net access." | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE SIG also really only tests the KDE spin. | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And as mclasen is saying the same about GNOME/Desktop, that doesn't look too great for the DVD. | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| mizmo | "the dvd gets all the packages and is for the installation. I also get the live iso to put it on usb and fix friends’ computers, or maybe use it to install fedora in case the dvd fails as happened in F11" | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| mizmo | "for my own use, always the install DVD. also a Live image for sharing/playing with" | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| mizmo | "I would like to add a thought: This last release was the first one I used liveCD to disk install and it is amazingly fast, unfortunately it didn’t play well on keeping other OSes on the hard drive (I was too exhausted to even report this one I just live with it) and I ended up with only f11 after the install, but still I think I will be using this from now on, otherwise I use network install directly from fedora mirrors, but it takes about an hour, | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| mizmo | with liveCD – 10 minutes or less." | 27 Aug 14:01 |
| mccann | currently the DVD is not designed at all and isn't one of the spins and is a wasteland of crap. | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| mccann | we can fix that - but that is something we should do before promoting it | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| jwb | this discussion has ventured into FESCo territory | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Do we need an "Installer DVD SIG"? ;-) | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| drago01 | well the spins do not allow you to choose a different fs, could be fixed thought | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| mizmo | "DVD for new/fast installs, Live for service/repair, netinst for server/no-X installs" | 27 Aug 14:02 |
| stickster | jwb: I agree, I'm lost on why we're talking about this. | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| stickster | What's the point here? Serious question, not being snarky | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| notting | stickster: 'why promote the DVD if it's crap' | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| stickster | Where are we suggsting promoting the DVD? | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| jwb | where is it being promoted? | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| stickster | *jinx :-) | 27 Aug 14:03 |
| mizmo | i think the people who download the dvd know what they want | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| mizmo | or need it to upgrade | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| mizmo | sounds like the livemedia also overwrites dual boots | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| mizmo | id ont know about the upgrade case | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| stickster | I think we'd need to check that last claim out | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| stickster | I don't recall that being the case | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| stickster | But | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| mizmo | but could we push the netinstall for people who are not addressed by the live media? | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| Kevin_Kofler | The live media only overwrites other stuff if you don't know what you're doing. | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| notting | stickster: it was stated that that was the initial option on he 'more options' page | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| drago01 | mizmo: it does? afaik it doesn't | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| Kevin_Kofler | There's a partitioning step in the installer just like on the DVD. | 27 Aug 14:04 |
| mizmo | Kevin_Kofler: we're targeting the live media at people who don't know what they're doing | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| drago01 | atleast for dualbooting with windows | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| Kevin_Kofler | If you skip it, you get what you asked for. | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| Kevin_Kofler | It's the same on the DVD. | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| mizmo | maybe that needs a redesign them | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| drago01 | Kevin_Kofler: with the exception that you cannot change the fs there | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| Kevin_Kofler | True. | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| mccann | mizmo: that's wrong. we target the livecds to everyone | 27 Aug 14:05 |
| mccann | not just "people who don't know what they are doing" | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But people should be using the default anyway. ;-) | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mizmo | mccann: everyone includes people who don't know what they are doing, correct? | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mizmo | mccann: i did not say only | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mccann | in fact we don't even test the dvds really | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mccann | mizmo: ok | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| * stickster thinks that wide audience is part of the reason for wanting a bigger Live image. | 27 Aug 14:06 | |
| notting | i'd be happy with live + netinst | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| drago01 | Kevin_Kofler: noticed that when some said "wanted to try btrfs but the livecd did not show an option" | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| stickster | notting: That makes the most sense to me. | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| drago01 | upgrades? | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mizmo | would anyone have an issue with replacing the dvd option with live + netinst? | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| stickster | Either way you're downloading huge bits. | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| mizmo | what do upgraders do? | 27 Aug 14:06 |
| notting | mizmo: preupgrade, or netinst.iso + http upgrade | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| drago01 | both suck | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| jwb | or straight yum | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| drago01 | sucks even more | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| mizmo | notting: how does netinst.iso + http upgrade work? is that... workable? supported? | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| rdieter | I think the dvd also serves those with low bandwidth (ie, don't want to have to download anything extra) | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| jwb | we are not here to debate the merits of the various upgrade methodologies | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| mizmo | so heres the thing | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| notting | mizmo: you point to a http repo, select upgrade. should work bettre than DVD upgrade | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| mizmo | i really wanna close out feedback on these tomorrow | 27 Aug 14:07 |
| mizmo | so i can actually get them done in time for f12 | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| stickster | jwb: I think we're trying to figure out whether the DVD has a place in our web design | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | if it's one day till i wanna freeze that and we dont even know | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | (1) what we want to push as the way to upgrade | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | (2) whether or not we even want to advertise the DVD | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | well | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | im biting my nails right now | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| jwb | stickster, which is fine. but if "DVD and preupgrade and yum and netinstall" all "suck", then that isn't helpful | 27 Aug 14:08 |
| mizmo | i kind of thought 68% on a survey answer they want the DVD, okay i'll give them the dvd | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| stickster | mizmo: Here's how I look at it. We're very late in F12 to alter the entire offering set, when we think the DVD might be an anchor for a lot of people. | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| mizmo | looks like it's a lot more complicated than that | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| stickster | Perhaps this should be set as a FUDCon topic: "Die DVD Die." | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| mizmo | it's a little late right now to be making changes like 'completely pull the dvd' without having some sort of suitable replacement to serve the needs the dvd served | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| mizmo | and again, 68% = a lot of needs | 27 Aug 14:09 |
| mizmo | but this could be my cake sugar high wearing off | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| * stickster goes back to "It's OK for people to be disappointed, it's not OK for them to be surprised." | 27 Aug 14:10 | |
| notting | mizmo: at this stage, i suspect it needs to be an option, but i wouldn't make it the most prominent one | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mizmo | notting: okay so what do we make the most prominent | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mclasen | I think completely removing the dvd would be too radical this late | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mizmo | the other tabs we got are | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mizmo | desktop, arch, and activity | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mizmo | i think activity should probably not be prominent | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mizmo | i think it's between arch and desktop | 27 Aug 14:10 |
| mclasen | but making it sufficiently non-prominent to avoid the 'dvd sounds better than cd, so I'll go for that' issue, woudl be nice | 27 Aug 14:11 |
| mizmo | mclasen: i agree 100% | 27 Aug 14:11 |
| drago01 | mizmo: not sure that many "users" know what "arch" is supposed to mean | 27 Aug 14:11 |
| mizmo | drago01: it says 'architecture' in the mockup, im making abbreviations in chat | 27 Aug 14:11 |
| mizmo | drago01: if that helps o_O | 27 Aug 14:11 |
| drago01 | mizmo: no ... how many non developers/geeks know about cpu architectures or what that is? | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| mizmo | drago01: we're not targetting non developers / non geeks though | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| drago01 | mizmo: don't have a better suggestion thought | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| mizmo | drago01: we're targetting 'tech-savvy users who may not necessarily use linux/foss' | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| mizmo | drago01: and 'tech savvy users who use a different distro than fedora' | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| stickster | drago01: Those people would already be served well by the general get.fp.o and front page. | 27 Aug 14:12 |
| tw2113 | 27 Aug 14:13 | |
| * tw2113 perks up | 27 Aug 14:13 | |
| stickster | mizmo: OK, so what's the question at this point? | 27 Aug 14:13 |
| * stickster hoping that the extra time is helping us answer questions, not just add more | 27 Aug 14:13 | |
| mizmo | stickster: which tab is the default tab for the download fedora pages: (1) architectures (2) desktops | 27 Aug 14:13 |
| dgilmore | id say desktop | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| jwb | desktop | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| tw2113 | hmmm, yay this topic | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| drago01 | yeah desktop | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| tw2113 | "what is fedora's target audience" | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| drago01 | tw2113: -ENOMEM | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| stickster | tw2113: That's not really what we're discussing here, but thanks :-) | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| stickster | mizmo: I'd say Desktop. | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| mizmo | 27 Aug 14:14 | |
| * mizmo starts breaking out in hives | 27 Aug 14:14 | |
| mizmo | tw2113: bad question lol | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| mizmo | okay | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| tw2113 | i know | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| mizmo | we do desktop then | 27 Aug 14:14 |
| dgilmore | mizmo: no hives please ;) | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| tw2113 | 27 Aug 14:15 | |
| * tw2113 casts a heal spell on mizmo | 27 Aug 14:15 | |
| mizmo | dgilmore: im allergic to that question | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| stickster | Next question? | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| mizmo | tw2113: phew thanks, thought i was gonna need some phoenix down for a while there | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| mizmo | oh | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| mizmo | i didnt get any feedback on the spin details page | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| tw2113 | art, foss, inkscape, gimp, freedom! | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| mizmo | http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png | 27 Aug 14:15 |
| mizmo | looking ok so far? | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| tw2113 | healing words | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| jwb | mizmo, yes | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| dgilmore | mizmo: i think thats looking good | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| mizmo | yay | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| stickster | mizmo: One thing we're missing there is the required route for "Help me Mommy" | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| dgilmore | gives the sigs room to advertise, and provide lots of useful info | 27 Aug 14:16 |
| jwb | stickster, "google 'download fedora'" ? | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| mizmo | stickster: we could do a persistent slim banner in the right hand side of each tab to say, "Just want a Fedora that works? Go here." | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| stickster | Well, with different text, that's probably the right answer | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| jwb | ngh... | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| stickster | i.e. This Fedora works! | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| jwb | yeah, needs rewording | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| stickster | :-D | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| stickster | I knew what you meant though, mizmo | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| mizmo | lol | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| mizmo | sorry | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| mizmo | (*- -* ;;) | 27 Aug 14:17 |
| stickster | "I've read this page, and I'm not sure I want this, or what I want. What do you give to new users like me?" | 27 Aug 14:18 |
| stickster | That's not the text either, just the case I'm thinking of | 27 Aug 14:18 |
| mizmo | "Me Tarzan, you Fedora" | 27 Aug 14:18 |
| stickster | So we do the reciprocal version of what's on get.fp.o | 27 Aug 14:18 |
| mizmo | stickster: yeppers | 27 Aug 14:18 |
| stickster | They're dropping like flies. | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| mizmo | yes | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| mizmo | so i think im good | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| jwb | 2 hours is the fedora meeting lifetime max | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| stickster | mizmo: Other than that, I think this is a brilliant "individual spin" mockup | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| mizmo | yay | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| stickster | I love the way that it has secondary branding | 27 Aug 14:19 |
| mizmo | :) | 27 Aug 14:20 |
| stickster | mizmo: *: Any other questions from anyone? | 27 Aug 14:21 |
| stickster | About designs, requirements, et al.? | 27 Aug 14:21 |
| mizmo | i think (hope) im good | 27 Aug 14:21 |
| mizmo | i guess, if you got any more comments please try to get them to me by tomorrow | 27 Aug 14:22 |
| stickster | mizmo: You've done an awesome job on this. | 27 Aug 14:22 |
| jwb | so | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| jwb | do we consider the design requirements closed now? | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| jwb | so mizmo and ricky can actually start coding... | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| mizmo | jwb: we need mocks before we can code :) | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| drago01_ | yes we can't discuss this forever .. just go ahead and see how it does | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| stickster | jwb: That's right. | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| stickster | Pending the final designs that Mo is working on, we're good to go forward. | 27 Aug 14:23 |
| jwb | finally | 27 Aug 14:24 |
| tw2113 | do eet to eet | 27 Aug 14:24 |
| stickster | I'm really excited that Fedora is going to look as fun as it is to run and be involved in. | 27 Aug 14:24 |
| stickster | mizmo: Can't say it enough, superb job. | 27 Aug 14:24 |
| tw2113 | fedora is going to look like a party? | 27 Aug 14:24 |
| mizmo | ;) tanks | 27 Aug 14:24 |
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