From Fedora Project Wiki
Meeting Summary
- Board page is out of date
- ACTION: Paul to start fixes, Board members to complete bio data
- Sponsorship -- waiting for Paul's proposal
- "What is Fedora"
- Waiting for spot's proposal, to be provided week of 2009-07-06
- Caillon's proposal to follow for meeting week of 2009-07-13
- Board approved use of hardware by the PPC secondary arch team, while noting this is not a policy precedent and is based on specific circumstances for PPC; implementation details to be worked out between PPC and Infrastructure separately
- Toxicity
- ACTION: Josh to write up process page
- ACTION: Board to find another volunteer for hall monitoring
- ACTION: Dennis to establish a list for the moderators to record their work
- Board agrees with having a cross-team coordination list, fwiw
- Thanks to departing members
Questions & Answers
- nirik: "I have a question about who fedora is for (which I know the Board has been working on). Should things like the get-fedora page target new to fedora/linux users? Or should we target it more at advanced users who know what gnome/kde/xfce are? Or can the board answer yet before the target market is decided?"
- _Hicham_: "I have a question about mono, what is the status of mono in Fedora 12?"
- jmbuser: "Has it been decided that all documentation (including the wiki) is going to be covered by a Creative Commons license? Is this approved by legal and what does it cover?"
- Nushio: "I have a question about the default Bluetooth manager. Can it really be changed to something else, or are we stuck with whatever Gnome provides?"
#fedora-board-meeting log
| stickster | Okay, who's here? Mouseketeer roll call! | 02 Jul 13:00 |
|---|---|---|
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:00 | |
| * mmcgrath here | 02 Jul 13:00 | |
| stickster | mmcgrath: Who loves ya baby? | 02 Jul 13:00 |
| mmcgrath | apparently the community | 02 Jul 13:01 |
| * stickster doesn't know if Telly Savalas references work with this crowd. | 02 Jul 13:01 | |
| poelcat | 02 Jul 13:01 | |
| * poelcat present | 02 Jul 13:01 | |
| notting | 02 Jul 13:01 | |
| * notting is here | 02 Jul 13:01 | |
| stickster | We're missing mdomsch, which is expected as he's on vacation. | 02 Jul 13:01 |
| stickster | I think we may be missing caillon -- is that expected too? | 02 Jul 13:01 |
| jwb | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| * jwb is here | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| mmcgrath | a spot? | 02 Jul 13:02 |
| spot | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| * spot is here | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| * mmcgrath spots a spot | 02 Jul 13:02 | |
| stickster | ping dgilmore glezos | 02 Jul 13:03 |
| dgilmore | because thats pong | 02 Jul 13:04 |
| dgilmore | pong | 02 Jul 13:04 |
| mmcgrath | when does the talking start? :) | 02 Jul 13:04 |
| stickster | Question to those members already here -- shall we do community Q&A first, so that we can accommodate contributors waiting to ask questions? | 02 Jul 13:04 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:04 | |
| * mmcgrath has no preference | 02 Jul 13:04 | |
| * stickster would like to do that if possible | 02 Jul 13:05 | |
| jwb | fine with me | 02 Jul 13:05 |
| stickster | Anyone against? | 02 Jul 13:05 |
| poelcat | -1 against | 02 Jul 13:05 |
| notting | stickster: one quick question - who is responsible for updating wiki/Board? | 02 Jul 13:05 |
| stickster | notting: Anyone can, but I'm happy to do it if there's something out of joint | 02 Jul 13:05 |
| notting | stickster: well, the list of members is out of date.. | 02 Jul 13:06 |
| stickster | oops. | 02 Jul 13:06 |
| * stickster updated History page and forgot that. | 02 Jul 13:06 | |
| poelcat | 02 Jul 13:06 | |
| * poelcat wonders if we could get the meeting bot to join? | 02 Jul 13:06 | |
| stickster | Let me then ask any of our newly elected/appointed contingency to update themselves on this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board | 02 Jul 13:06 |
| stickster | poelcat: Good point. | 02 Jul 13:07 |
| * stickster is sadly uneducated on how to make that happen | 02 Jul 13:07 | |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v Oxf13 | 02 Jul 13:07 | |
| mmcgrath | stickster: soon the meeting plugin will be part of zodbot and officially supported | 02 Jul 13:07 |
| stickster | OK, poelcat wants to do agenda up front. No strong preferences, so we bend his way. | 02 Jul 13:08 |
| stickster | The first item up is Sponsorship. | 02 Jul 13:08 |
| stickster | In 5 min | 02 Jul 13:09 |
| stickster | Current status -- I believe this is waiting on me to draw up a set of definitions for sponsor levels | 02 Jul 13:09 |
| stickster | I've been -ENOTIME this whole month, for which I apologize. | 02 Jul 13:09 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v ctyler | 02 Jul 13:09 | |
| jwb | should we clarify we don't mean packager sponsorship? | 02 Jul 13:09 |
| stickster | jwb: Well, our previous agendas lay it out, but yes -- this is about *project* sponsorship | 02 Jul 13:10 |
| ctyler | 02 Jul 13:10 | |
| * ctyler apologizes for being late, anticipates that his network problems may rear their ugly head again in a few minutes | 02 Jul 13:10 | |
| stickster | As in a commercial firm that wishes to give some sort of service or other non-labor contribution | 02 Jul 13:10 |
| mmcgrath | http://fedoraproject.org/sponsors | 02 Jul 13:10 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: Yes, for example, that page | 02 Jul 13:10 |
| stickster | The next item of work TODO is for me to write a proposal on the wiki laying out equivalency for sponsorship levels. What does it take to have your name on that page? | 02 Jul 13:11 |
| poelcat | 02 Jul 13:11 | |
| * poelcat notes you may have to disable adblock to actually see sponsor logos | 02 Jul 13:11 | |
| mmcgrath | poelcat: they are, technically, ads :) | 02 Jul 13:11 |
| stickster | We frequently have people ask whether mirroring Fedora gives them eligibility for that page, for example. Consensus is that it does not. | 02 Jul 13:12 |
| Oxf13 | ACTION. apologies. this is jesse on mu iPhone. will not be able to respond quickly | 02 Jul 13:12 |
| stickster | Any questions on this? | 02 Jul 13:12 |
| stickster | If not, I'll move on and have something for the Board next week. | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| mmcgrath | stickster: are these going to be hard rules or allow for exceptions? | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| dgilmore | stickster: right but perhaps we could have a logo added to mirrormanager that can be displayed | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: I think exceptions are within the province of the Board | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| mmcgrath | k | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| Oxf13 | what happens when a company wants to donate people? | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| stickster | dgilmore: Sure, we aren't blocking that either | 02 Jul 13:13 |
| poelcat | Have we detailed anywhere what we want to accomplish with the sponsorship page? | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| mmcgrath | dgilmore: and, of course, they're allowed to brand their mirror any way they want. | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| dgilmore | mmcgrath: right | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| stickster | poelcat: It's in previous sponsorship threads in the Board list | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| mmcgrath | poelcat: I kind of wondered that too, I'm not sure what problem we're trying to fix. | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| stickster | I have to round those up as part of the proposal, which is why it's taken so long to get it done. | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| mmcgrath | bit I figured I'd wait until I saw the proposal before digging further. | 02 Jul 13:14 |
| mmcgrath | s/bit/but/ | 02 Jul 13:15 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: +1, I think that's probably best for now. | 02 Jul 13:15 |
| stickster | I just wanted to give a status (which was essentially, "I haven't got this done, apologies") | 02 Jul 13:15 |
| * stickster sees our time is up for this topic, let's move on | 02 Jul 13:15 | |
| stickster | The next topic is the "What is Fedora?" topic. This depends on spot and caillon's proposals, which were delayed from last week due to LinuxTag and a couple other speedbumps. | 02 Jul 13:16 |
| spot | -ENOTIME | 02 Jul 13:16 |
| spot | i'll do my best to have something for next week | 02 Jul 13:17 |
| stickster | spot: Can you remind us what specifically your proposal concerned? | 02 Jul 13:17 |
| * stickster notes there is a pending question in f-b-questions that might read on this. | 02 Jul 13:17 | |
| spot | uhh... | 02 Jul 13:17 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v ctyler_ | 02 Jul 13:17 | |
| spot | it has been a while, i would have to go back in the logs to figure out what i committed to do | 02 Jul 13:17 |
| Oxf13 | /me wonders if having this defined would have made the last two weeks of #fedora-devel any different | 02 Jul 13:17 |
| stickster | IIRC it concerned changes in the website and the presentation of the default Fedora live spin | 02 Jul 13:18 |
| jwb | Oxf13, possibly. but i doubt overly much | 02 Jul 13:18 |
| ctyler_ | 02 Jul 13:18 | |
| * ctyler_ has wondered the same thing | 02 Jul 13:18 | |
| spot | stickster: i don't think it was that specific, i think it was more of a "many spins, one default." | 02 Jul 13:18 |
| stickster | spot: May well have been. My memory is probably colored by the f-devel-l thread | 02 Jul 13:19 |
| stickster | spot: I think it would be good to have this ready for next week's discussion so we can make some progress | 02 Jul 13:19 |
| spot | 02 Jul 13:19 | |
| * spot is not a website designer, has no UI training, completely unqualified to tell anyone how to design a website | 02 Jul 13:19 | |
| stickster | I'll tickle caillon as well | 02 Jul 13:19 |
| spot | i think caillon is at GUADEC? | 02 Jul 13:20 |
| stickster | Oh, right, there's a serious conference going on in Gran Canaria I believe | 02 Jul 13:20 |
| stickster | OK, not sure when that ends. | 02 Jul 13:20 |
| Oxf13 | "changes must not break default spin unless prior agreement is reached" or something like that | 02 Jul 13:20 |
| notting | 11 | 02 Jul 13:21 |
| Oxf13 | stickster: 10 days or so | 02 Jul 13:21 |
| dgilmore | spot: you and me both | 02 Jul 13:21 |
| stickster | Hm, that means he won't resurface until the week after next. So I guess spot, if you can have yours ready next week, I'll ask caillon to have his for the week after. | 02 Jul 13:21 |
| stickster | Probably best to move on, and hit nirik's question when we get to Q&A | 02 Jul 13:22 |
| stickster | The next item was on secondary arch | 02 Jul 13:22 |
| stickster | The pending question was, can the group setting up for PPC use the existing PPC build hardware? | 02 Jul 13:23 |
| dgilmore | we could allow them to use some of the ppc machines | 02 Jul 13:23 |
| stickster | The last meeting we had on this topic, two weeks back, was missing some of the people who knew the most about infrastructure and builders. Since those people are here now, we stand a better chance of getting the answer. :-) | 02 Jul 13:23 |
| * stickster sets clock for 10 min | 02 Jul 13:23 | |
| dgilmore | we will still requires some for epel and F-10 F-11 and F-12 | 02 Jul 13:23 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:23 | |
| * mmcgrath notes this sounds like a better deal to them then it is. | 02 Jul 13:23 | |
| Oxf13 | I still say yes if infra team can figure a safe way for this to happen | 02 Jul 13:23 |
| mmcgrath | the warranty on all of our blades is up in October. | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| jwb | mmcgrath, ? | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| jwb | oh | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| mmcgrath | I'm going to try to extend that a year. | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| jwb | october+1year is better than nothing | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| mmcgrath | I think I've got enough budget for all that, (this includes our x86_64 builders. | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| mmcgrath | but we'll likely have to revisit then. | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| mmcgrath | I'll have to look at our non-blade hardware. | 02 Jul 13:24 |
| jwb | if we find it generally agreeable, i was thinking 1 or 2 of the 6 blades could be repurposed once F13 devel starts | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| mmcgrath | we've got ppc4 which is a pretty beefy box, probably has 2 years left before it gets EOLed | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| Oxf13 | when the warrenty is up do we just pull them? or just leave them busted when they break? | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| dgilmore | mmcgrath: non blade is possibly out of warranty now | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| stickster | Oxf13: that's an advisory vote since the new Board is seated for this meeting, right? :-) | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| mmcgrath | dgilmore: I think all but ppc4 is | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| jwb | so does anyone think it's not reasonable to reuse exiting ppc builders? | 02 Jul 13:25 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:26 | |
| * mmcgrath can't think of any. | 02 Jul 13:26 | |
| jwb | maybe we should start there :) | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| Oxf13 | yes. I was restating my position from previous board meetings | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| dgilmore | mmcgrath: ppc4 would be the iffy ones. ppc1 and 2 are very old and have been in use since not long after extras started | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| jwb | guys, that's implementation details | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| mmcgrath | I've given a potential proposal to dennis and tom about future secondary arch hosting. | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| mmcgrath | I haven't really heard back though about moving forward with that or not. | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| dgilmore | jwb: i think its reasonable to transition some of them. we will always require at least 2 in fedora for EPEL | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| stickster | I think jwb originally brought this question, and just wanted to know if the Board was for or against the reuse of the hardware in general. Is that correct Josh? | 02 Jul 13:26 |
| jwb | stickster, correct. the ppc sig can work with infrastructure to map out a plan. they just need approval from the board to use the hardwrae | 02 Jul 13:27 |
| notting | 02 Jul 13:28 | |
| * notting is for the re-usage in this case, but does not feel it should be a precedent in other cases | 02 Jul 13:28 | |
| stickster | Are we specifically allowing this reuse so that we can get a viable secondary arch off the ground? | 02 Jul 13:28 |
| dgilmore | stickster: we have viable secondary arches. bootstrapping them is not easy. ppc will have a jump in that its bootstrapped | 02 Jul 13:29 |
| jwb | we have viable secondary arch efforts. i've yet to see one release | 02 Jul 13:29 |
| stickster | dgilmore: i.e. previously maintained by Project personnel, you mean? | 02 Jul 13:29 |
| poelcat | dgilmore: could it potentially help lead the way for the others? | 02 Jul 13:29 |
| Oxf13 | in my opinion yes plus we already have ppc hardware hosted so this isn't asking much of the infra team. different than hosting a s390 | 02 Jul 13:29 |
| dgilmore | stickster:i guess not since i dont understand what you mean by that statement | 02 Jul 13:30 |
| dgilmore | poelcat: not at all. | 02 Jul 13:30 |
| spot | +1 for permission to use the hardware, and let ppc and infrastructure work out the specifics | 02 Jul 13:30 |
| * stickster apologizes for being unclear or marginalizing any other secondary arch efforts | 02 Jul 13:30 | |
| dgilmore | poelcat: the hardest part is getting things built to match rawhide | 02 Jul 13:30 |
| poelcat | +1 to spots proposal | 02 Jul 13:30 |
| jwb | dgilmore, that's after you have hardware to build stuff one | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| dgilmore | +1 for the use fo the hardware | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| jwb | er, on | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| notting | +1 to spot's proposal | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| stickster | dgilmore: What I was asking was, does "bootstrapped" mean previously maintained inside the Fedora Project itself | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| jwb | wasn't that my proposal? | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| jwb | bah. +1 to spots stole proposal | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| jwb | ;) | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| dgilmore | jwb: right, hardware for building and disk for /mnt/koji are quite large investments | 02 Jul 13:31 |
| dgilmore | stickster: no bootstrapping means going from something/nothing to having the exact same builds as fedora | 02 Jul 13:32 |
| dgilmore | stickster: so ppc is already bootstrapped | 02 Jul 13:32 |
| stickster | dgilmore: OK, that's what I was trying to get at, thanks | 02 Jul 13:32 |
| dgilmore | other arches are not | 02 Jul 13:32 |
| stickster | I think we should make the additional point that this decision is made on the basis of the particular case of PPC, and not a blanket rule for offering hardware to other arches | 02 Jul 13:32 |
| Oxf13 | +1 | 02 Jul 13:33 |
| stickster | Oxf13: (in your advisory capacity) ;-) | 02 Jul 13:33 |
| dgilmore | stickster: right we dont have hardware for other arches. and if we did it could be evaluated as needed. | 02 Jul 13:33 |
| notting | but please do not ship boxes to mmcgrath and dgilmore | 02 Jul 13:33 |
| dgilmore | stickster: they still need a largish investment in hardware for the ppc hub and primary storage | 02 Jul 13:34 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: Your vote? | 02 Jul 13:34 |
| dgilmore | notting: :) | 02 Jul 13:34 |
| mmcgrath | +1 I guess | 02 Jul 13:34 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:35 | |
| * mmcgrath is a little confused why we're actually voting. | 02 Jul 13:35 | |
| poelcat | i understand the issue to be that we are breaking from the policy of requring all secondary arches to provide their own hardware | 02 Jul 13:35 |
| stickster | jwb's original question asked for a Board clarification because of that | 02 Jul 13:36 |
| stickster | I see six +1's, so spot's proposal is carried. | 02 Jul 13:36 |
| stickster | The next issue is the toxicity follow-up. | 02 Jul 13:37 |
| stickster | At this point, we have three items pending: | 02 Jul 13:37 |
| stickster | 1. write policy for how moderation works to the wiki | 02 Jul 13:37 |
| stickster | 2. appoint moderators and note them as well | 02 Jul 13:37 |
| stickster | 3. create list for moderators to use to record their work | 02 Jul 13:37 |
| stickster | We hashed out most of #1, it just needs to be codified on the wiki. I believe that information is all written up in the past Board minutes | 02 Jul 13:38 |
| stickster | Is there anyone who can write up that page by next week? | 02 Jul 13:38 |
| * stickster plate is full and needs to delegate something here | 02 Jul 13:39 | |
| spot | 02 Jul 13:39 | |
| * spot is far too overloaded to volunteer | 02 Jul 13:39 | |
| stickster | spot: understandable, np | 02 Jul 13:39 |
| stickster | jwb: Any chance I could sucker you into that? | 02 Jul 13:39 |
| jwb | yes | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| stickster | jwb: OK, thank you sir. | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| stickster | jwb: I'll be available as always to help/advise/edit. | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| jwb | though i'll need a bit of a recap on #1 | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| jwb | if i have questions | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| stickster | jwb: np, I'll get you pointers and so forth -- get with me after this or whenever convenient | 02 Jul 13:40 |
| jwb | yep | 02 Jul 13:41 |
| stickster | For moderators... we had a couple volunteers already who are @RH, but I would also like to see a volunteer moderator. I would also say that this venue may not be the right place to just toss around names, in case that person is not interested. | 02 Jul 13:41 |
| stickster | We don't want to put anyone in an uncomfortable place by publicly asking them to help if they're not willing. | 02 Jul 13:42 |
| stickster | I would propose we do that this week on the f-board-l for that reason. In any case, this isn't a blocker for #3, the list establishment | 02 Jul 13:42 |
| Oxf13 | erm. even if @ redhat they are still volunteers | 02 Jul 13:43 |
| stickster | Oxf13: oops, I meant to write non-RH volunteer moderator. Note that I referred to the @RH folks as volunteers as well | 02 Jul 13:43 |
| stickster | "...I would also like to see a *non-RH* volunteer moderator" | 02 Jul 13:43 |
| * stickster goes back in time and corrects his buffer | 02 Jul 13:43 | |
| stickster | dgilmore: Would you be willing to get a list established for the moderators? | 02 Jul 13:44 |
| stickster | Note this list would be strictly for recording moderation done. | 02 Jul 13:44 |
| Oxf13 | why does @redhat or not matter? aren't we trying to end that fud? | 02 Jul 13:45 |
| dgilmore | stickster: sure | 02 Jul 13:45 |
| dgilmore | Oxf13: right we want volunteers regardless of where they come from | 02 Jul 13:45 |
| dgilmore | stickster: we want one mailing list for the moderators to communicate on right? and it should eb an open list | 02 Jul 13:46 |
| dgilmore | just so im clear on what im doing | 02 Jul 13:46 |
| jwb | open? | 02 Jul 13:46 |
| dgilmore | jwb: open archives | 02 Jul 13:47 |
| stickster | dgilmore: Thank you for bringing that up. The moderator list is not an open list, for the reasons described in the original proposal. | 02 Jul 13:47 |
| dgilmore | stickster: ok | 02 Jul 13:47 |
| stickster | The reasons are the same as those for privately notifying the moderated individual that they've been moderated. | 02 Jul 13:47 |
| dgilmore | stickster: understood | 02 Jul 13:47 |
| stickster | OK, let's move on -- I want to get to Q&A | 02 Jul 13:48 |
| stickster | Last topic is cross-project mailing list | 02 Jul 13:48 |
| stickster | This was an idea that John put on the FAB, to help with cross-team collaboration. It doesn't need Board approval any more than any other list. | 02 Jul 13:49 |
| mmcgrath | stickster: then why has it come up? :) | 02 Jul 13:49 |
| stickster | We wanted to make sure that Board people saw this idea, and that people interested in the Board (and thus the Project at large) see it as well | 02 Jul 13:49 |
| poelcat | 02 Jul 13:49 | |
| * poelcat is probably going to call it logistics@lists.fedoraproject.org | 02 Jul 13:49 | |
| stickster | This meeting has attendees beyond the FAB list (or even Fedora) membership. | 02 Jul 13:49 |
| stickster | poelcat: Sounds reasonable to me | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| * stickster notes for any of those listeners, for more information, simply follow the FAB thread: | 02 Jul 13:50 | |
| jwb | that's fine with me too | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| Oxf13 | is this for release coordination and the like? | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| jwb | and i think the list is a great idea | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| stickster | Oxf13: Yes | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| Oxf13 | sorry disregard | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| jwb | Oxf13, cross-project communication | 02 Jul 13:50 |
| stickster | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-July/msg00000.html | 02 Jul 13:51 |
| stickster | OK, time to move to Q&A | 02 Jul 13:51 |
| stickster | We have a couple of questions waiting already in the queue | 02 Jul 13:51 |
| stickster | [0] from nirik: I have a question about who fedora is for (which I know the Board has been working on). Should things like the get-fedora page target new to fedora/linux users? Or should we target it more at advanced users who know what gnome/kde/xfce are? Or can the board answer yet before the target market is decided? | 02 Jul 13:51 |
| notting | "things that require multi-group coordination so to avoid cross-posting everywhere" | 02 Jul 13:51 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v nirik | 02 Jul 13:52 | |
| stickster | nirik: I posted your question, sorry | 02 Jul 13:52 |
| notting | i think 1) a final answer should probably wait for the rest of the 'what is fedora' discussion 2) in general, it's better to target more new users and let more experienced users find what they need than to try and do the reverse | 02 Jul 13:52 |
| nirik | thats fine. I would only have done the same. ;) | 02 Jul 13:52 |
| jwb | notting, yes | 02 Jul 13:53 |
| * stickster agrees as well. | 02 Jul 13:53 | |
| jwb | i simply think targeting advanced users is too limiting in terms of growing the fedora user base | 02 Jul 13:54 |
| mmcgrath | experienced users != new users. I think Fedora should target experienced users, and that our fedoraproject.org pages should reflect that. | 02 Jul 13:54 |
| stickster | Targeting advanced users for the download page itself is definitely limiting. | 02 Jul 13:55 |
| stickster | It's a different question for the Project as a whole. | 02 Jul 13:55 |
| jwb | mmcgrath, but then you are immediately pitting yourself in a distro war | 02 Jul 13:55 |
| mmcgrath | jwb: just the opposite. | 02 Jul 13:55 |
| jwb | "hey person that already knows linux and stuff! come use fedora instead of <$distro>!" | 02 Jul 13:55 |
| mmcgrath | experienced users can make those decisions for themselves. | 02 Jul 13:56 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 13:56 | |
| * mmcgrath just is tired of us trying to please everyone. | 02 Jul 13:56 | |
| mmcgrath | we should pick, and stick to it. | 02 Jul 13:56 |
| mmcgrath | let other distros pick up new linux users. | 02 Jul 13:56 |
| jwb | why is that? | 02 Jul 13:56 |
| stickster | I think the get-fedora page is not typically a page that experienced users need, and therefore targeting them there is a failure. | 02 Jul 13:57 |
| jwb | stickster, i agree with that too | 02 Jul 13:57 |
| mmcgrath | stickster: even I use get.fedoraproject.org when I download fedora. | 02 Jul 13:57 |
| nirik | I will note that often we get people in #fedora who ask which they should use... KDE or Gnome, or something else. The best answer we can give them is to try them out and use what they like best. There is always going to need to be a default tho | 02 Jul 13:57 |
| mmcgrath | I guess I wonder why we're even talking about what the get.fp.o page should look like since we haven't answered who it should be fore. | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| mmcgrath | err for | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| jwb | mmcgrath, we aren't. nirik asked who it should be for :) | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| Oxf13 | mmagrath: but you already know what you are looking for | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: Which is exactly what notting said :-) | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| nirik | 02 Jul 13:58 | |
| * nirik nods. Thats the deep down question. | 02 Jul 13:58 | |
| notting | 02 Jul 13:58 | |
| * notting just uses wget http://download.fedora.... and types the URLs by hand. i don't think we should optimize for that case :) | 02 Jul 13:58 | |
| mmcgrath | and I think Fedora should be for experienced users... and that all of our fedoraproject.org pages should reflect that :) | 02 Jul 13:58 |
| dgilmore | stickster: i agree i never go to get-fedora | 02 Jul 13:59 |
| jwb | mmcgrath, ok. others feel that is too limiting | 02 Jul 13:59 |
| mmcgrath | what do others feel? We should be for experienced users and new users? | 02 Jul 13:59 |
| mmcgrath | are we having this discussion now? | 02 Jul 13:59 |
| jwb | no, i think we said to sort of delay it | 02 Jul 14:00 |
| mmcgrath | k | 02 Jul 14:00 |
| nirik | there is also a blurry line if you just say 'new' or experienced... how new is new? | 02 Jul 14:00 |
| stickster | nirik: Noted, definitely. That's not how one should define an audience. | 02 Jul 14:00 |
| stickster | So in summary there's more discussion to be had here. | 02 Jul 14:02 |
| stickster | We have another question | 02 Jul 14:02 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v nirik | 02 Jul 14:02 | |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v _Hicham_ | 02 Jul 14:02 | |
| dgilmore | nirik: most days i still think im a novice user. | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| stickster | _Hicham_ asks: I have a question about mono, what is the status of mono in Fedora 12? | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| stickster | _Hicham_: You are now voiced. | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| _Hicham_ | thanks stickster | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| mmcgrath | when did that become a board question? | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| spot | 02 Jul 14:03 | |
| * spot wonders why that isn't a Fedora Legal question | 02 Jul 14:03 | |
| jwb | do you mean from a legal perspective? | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| dgilmore | _Hicham_: AFAIK its not changed from previous releases | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| spot | but since I'm here... | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, there is a lot of concerns over mono | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| dgilmore | until the OIN doesnt cover us it remains | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| spot | There is no change in the legal status of mono. | 02 Jul 14:03 |
| stickster | The only change we know of are that Tomboy has been replaced in the default Live spin by Gnote to slim down the dependencies | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| stickster | s/are/is/ <-- bad grammar, sorry | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| notting | mono is still included, moonlight is still very much not. | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| spot | So, barring some event that would change that answer, mono will be part of Fedora 12. | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| _Hicham_ | so we are counting on OIN until there is a change in their policy? | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| stickster | Despite vehement voices to the contrary, and thank you to mether for shining some light in that regard. | 02 Jul 14:04 |
| spot | (As stickster points out, it probably won't be on the Default LiveCD due to space reasons) | 02 Jul 14:05 |
| notting | and it may or may not be on the default 'Fedora' DVD, depending on how those live group decisions trickle down | 02 Jul 14:05 |
| stickster | _Hicham_: Change in whose policy? | 02 Jul 14:05 |
| notting | Nushio: as it stands now, gnote would be on the DVD, not tomboy. | 02 Jul 14:05 |
| stickster | OIN's? | 02 Jul 14:05 |
| _Hicham_ | rms pointed out lately that mono shouldn't be given by default | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| _Hicham_ | stickster : yes, OIN's policy | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| notting | but f-spot is still a default package for the DVD | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| spot | _Hicham_: RMS is, as usual, entitled to his own opinions. | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| spot | his opinions do not affect the fact that mono is available under a free license | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| _Hicham_ | I think that removing it from the DVD would be useful too | 02 Jul 14:06 |
| spot | (there is also some irony in how RMS decides to vilify patents.) | 02 Jul 14:07 |
| _Hicham_ | encouring development on the mono platform is risky | 02 Jul 14:07 |
| _Hicham_ | *encouarging | 02 Jul 14:07 |
| spot | 02 Jul 14:07 | |
| * spot encourages people to research the risks of their own actions individually | 02 Jul 14:07 | |
| _Hicham_ | also, why isn't mono available for RHEL? | 02 Jul 14:08 |
| stickster | That's not a question for Fedora, is it? | 02 Jul 14:08 |
| spot | _Hicham_: now you're really asking the wrong group. | 02 Jul 14:08 |
| _Hicham_ | spot : I am trying to know the legal issues | 02 Jul 14:08 |
| stickster | _Hicham_: I would encourage you to contact the fedora-legal-list for more information about legal status in Fedora | 02 Jul 14:08 |
| stickster | RHEL issues are not decided by the Fedora Board. | 02 Jul 14:09 |
| stickster | We have another question waiting and we're overtime | 02 Jul 14:09 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v _Hicham_ | 02 Jul 14:09 | |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v jmbuser | 02 Jul 14:09 | |
| stickster | Go ahead jmbuser | 02 Jul 14:09 |
| stickster | Me pastes in case jmbuser is no longer available | 02 Jul 14:10 |
| jmbuser | Has it been decided that all documentation (including the wiki) is going to be covered by a Creative Commons license? Is this approved by legal and what does it cover? | 02 Jul 14:10 |
| stickster | oh, thanks :-) | 02 Jul 14:10 |
| stickster | It's something that quaid is pursuing currently, I believe. | 02 Jul 14:10 |
| stickster | RH Legal doesn't decide these matters for Fedora, but for what it's worth they are fully supportive of it. | 02 Jul 14:10 |
| spot | There are no legal roadblocks to moving to a CC license. | 02 Jul 14:11 |
| stickster | A CC license gives us much greater data interchange with other projects | 02 Jul 14:11 |
| spot | well, i should say, one of the "free CC licenses" | 02 Jul 14:11 |
| stickster | Right, CC BY-SA 3.0 is the particular license we're looking at, IIRC | 02 Jul 14:11 |
| stickster | It has eliminated some of the perceived discrepancies in a previous version | 02 Jul 14:11 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v caillon | 02 Jul 14:12 | |
| stickster | I believe quaid is also working with the RH Docs folks to make sure that a licensing change happens fairly contemporaneously | 02 Jul 14:12 |
| jmbuser | That clrifies things...thanks | 02 Jul 14:12 |
| stickster | Thanks for your question jmbuser | 02 Jul 14:13 |
| stickster | (and previous question askers too) :-) | 02 Jul 14:13 |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: -v jmbuser | 02 Jul 14:13 | |
| --- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed mode: +v Nushio | 02 Jul 14:13 | |
| stickster | Nushio: Did you have a question remaining? | 02 Jul 14:13 |
| Nushio | I have a question about the default Bluetooth manager. Can it really be changed to something else, or are we stuck with whatever Gnome provides? | 02 Jul 14:13 |
| Nushio | (this question is towards bluetooth, but the logic could apply to any component) | 02 Jul 14:13 |
| mmcgrath | 02 Jul 14:14 | |
| * mmcgrath believes thats a FESCo question | 02 Jul 14:14 | |
| stickster | I think this is probably outside the Board's purview | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| caillon | i'm pretty sure that different spins have different bluetooth managers | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| dgilmore | Nushio: its a fesco issue not a board one | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| notting | this isn't really a board-level question. i suspect that you'd need to convince the desktop or kde sigs as to the benefits of changing what they use | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| Nushio | sorry then | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| mmcgrath | Nushio: no worries, we could do a better job of clarifying what questions belong where. | 02 Jul 14:14 |
| stickster | mmcgrath: True, maybe you could draft something on the Board IRC page where we point people for these meetings? | 02 Jul 14:15 |
| stickster | I'd be happy to edit/help | 02 Jul 14:15 |
| mmcgrath | sure | 02 Jul 14:15 |
| stickster | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC | 02 Jul 14:15 |
| stickster | Eggscellent | 02 Jul 14:15 |
| caillon | (wow, we list the channel settings on what we give people?) | 02 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | Regardless, I think caillon has this right -- not sure what LXDE, XFCE, etc. use for this purpose, but spins are free to create their own capability stacks | 02 Jul 14:17 |
| Nushio | understood, thanks, and sorry again for asking the board | 02 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | caillon: I think that page is slightly out of date -- I used completely different commands for this purpose when setting up the f-b-questions channels. | 02 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | Nushio: Thanks for your question! | 02 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | I think that does it for the community question queue | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | I also wanted to say a big public thank you | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | to Chris Tyler | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | Harald Hoyer | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | Jesse Keating | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | Seth Vidal | 02 Jul 14:18 |
| stickster | for their services to the Board and to the Fedora community. | 02 Jul 14:19 |
| notting | three cheers for our dearly departed members. don't go too far! | 02 Jul 14:19 |
| stickster | well-deserving of recognition for the way they constantly looked out for community interests in our meetings and other proceedings | 02 Jul 14:19 |
| stickster | I think that does it for this meeting then | 02 Jul 14:20 |
| stickster | Thank you to everyone for coming, and we'll soon get our schedule straightened out for our regular phone meeting. | 02 Jul 14:20 |
| stickster | Community members: the monthly IRC meeting may change in accordance with that schedule, heads up. I'll make sure to highlight this in next month's announcements. | 02 Jul 14:20 |
| * stickster will post the log to the wiki per usual. | 02 Jul 14:21 | |
| stickster | Thank you Board! See you next week. | 02 Jul 14:21 |
| stickster | </meeting> | 02 Jul 14:21 |
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