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2007 June 28 FESCo Meeting

Members

Present

  • Brian Pepple (bpepple)
  • Jason Tibbitts (tibbs)
  • Jesse Keating (f13)
  • Toshio Kuratomi (abadger1999)
  • Bill Nottingham (notting)
  • Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
  • Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)
  • Jeremy Katz (jeremy)
  • Rex Dieter (rdieter)
  • Christian Iseli (c4chris)
  • Warren Togami (warren)
  • Josh Boyer (jwb)
  • Tom Callaway (spot)

Summary

FPC CommitIDs Proposal

Feature Policy Draft

All new packages must be reviewed before cvs import

  • FESCo approved spot's proposal that all new packages (including compat packages) must be reviewed before cvs import.

Opening FESCo election vote to more people

  • FESCo approved a proposal to expand the pool of people eligible to vote for the upcoming FESCo election. This was done since FESCo's new scope of responsibilities affects many different parts of the project.

Misc

  • jwb proposed that future proposal drafts be sent to public mailing lists, so more community feedback can be gathered.

Log

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<h1>FESCO_2007-06-28</h1>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: you gonna be around for today's FESCo meeting?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">bpepple: yes</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* poelcat wasn't sure if topic is still on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">some were complaining that there wasn't enough time to review</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">yeah, I left it on.  I don't think we'll probably vote on it.  But it probably warrents at least talking about it a bit.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">sounds good... i posted it on monday to fedora-devel and was thinking that was 4 days to review</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> not sure why some felt it was only 2 days</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but that's okay :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">no idea.  regardless I scheduled it toward the beginning of the meeting.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">poelcat: were you able to add in something about having FESCo approve proposed features?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: To start early, what is the end goal?  I think I see "To have, at feature freeze, a list of features going into the release." all over that page.  But I'm not quite sure what that gives us.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: I believe that was still in the comments.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnPoelstra/FeaturePolicyDraft#head-f363ed1f1e68bbdc7bf124fcf00b9b68c07ec27b">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnPoelstra/FeaturePolicyDraft#head-f363ed1f1e68bbdc7bf124fcf00b9b68c07ec27b</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: I've read that.  It doesn't answer the question: What does this give us?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I think matthias added that question in another form at the bottom of the page: "But we are not doing all of the above just to have release notes content, or do we ?"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> s/added/asked/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: I think it will give us some accountability, and a greater sense if a feature won't be ready in time.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: do you agree with the problem statement at the top?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I think it might give more help from other parts of the project for a feature... ie, "hey, I didn't know someone was working on that... I have a great idea about that... I'll help them"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at <a href="http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines">http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines</a> -- Init process</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Okay.  accountability is something we don't have now.  The sense of ready on time, though, feeds into "have a list of features at freeze time"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* abadger1999 here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">abadger1999: jeremy had a good write up of why we need the list</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">f13: Was that in one of the ml threads?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* abadger1999 goes to refresh his memory</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> maybe we can convince him to chuck it at the wiki (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: yeah, I think he sent it yesterday to the devel list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">it's in the actual "Fedora Features Process" thread</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e"><a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02587.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02587.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jwb is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">FESCo meeting ping -- abadger1999, bpepple, c4chris, dgilmore, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, rdieter, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik is here. </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Hi, everyone.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: That's a great list.  That shold be the "Goals" section of the page.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* tibbs here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> c4chris is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jwb is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jeremy is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999 here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">here soonish</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, we'll start of with an easy one.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Any objection to this week's report from FPC at <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00790.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00790.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple doesn't object to the CommitID proposal from the FPC.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">that seems quite good to me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">fine with me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">sure</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* dgilmore is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">alright, I don't see any objections here or on the mailing list to to it. So, I think we can consider it approved.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> moving on.....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Feature Polict Draft - <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnPoelstra/FeaturePolicyDraft">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnPoelstra/FeaturePolicyDraft</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, we discussed this a little before the meeting.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I have no objection to it, but I think overhead should be kept as low as possible... ie, create new feature page and update status... and have the feature manager police things. Avoid meetings if possible...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and I agree with abadger1999 suggestion that jeremy's e-mail should probably be added to the proposal.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">which email?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02587.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02587.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik: agreed -- I think the meetings have a strong possibility to become overkill</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yeah, could it get cleaned up to fold in all the suggestions and perhaps we could vote on it next week?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">the proposal states meetings "only iff necessary"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">s/meetings/dictator fiats/?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">do we have a feature manager ready?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">c4chris: poelcat has volunteered</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (or has been volunteered)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">cool</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I think the "Why We Should Do It?" section should have "(Goals)" attached to it, merge in Jeremy's mail, and be moved near the top.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">im ok with it.  as long as its not a huge overhead</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">"What we should do" really is details of implementation rather than goals.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* poelcat wonders if the problem statement is clear</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">if we don't agree on that</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">One thing that seems to concern some of the desktop guys is the definition for feature seem a little ambiguous.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">the rest will be hard to come to concensus on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Can we revise the proposal, perhaps add a concrete workflow example of how it would work?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">bpepple: indeed.  a "feature" is a fuzzy concept</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">I'm fuzzy on how exactly this would work.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">A little iffy there.  The problem statement mentions "must have" features but the rest of the document seems to work more towards general features.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so what we are wanting to avoid here is something like codecbuddy in f7? touted, but never finished?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: not exactly</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I can see more overhead for "must-have" features since they must go in or we don't ship.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: trying to avoid somebody coming in a week before release saying "DAMNIT I'm trying to get $Foo done and nobody is helping me, slip the schedule!!"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">bpepple: i'd say features that should be tracked are the union of 1) highly user visible changes 2) things that require non-trivial cross-package integration 3) cool things we can trumpet fedora doing (some of this is PR)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">abadger1999: I think that the idea of "must have" should be thrown out.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> "Features" we track are changes that impact end users, require coordination across multiple maintainers/developers, etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">or "must have" = "release blocker"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">f13: agreed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">rdieter: I think we're trying to get away from blocking releases on features.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f"><a href="https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs">https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs</a> have people seen how Ubuntu tracks features?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">i'd propose that "release blockers" should be defined more on the QA side</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple hasn't</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">there may occasionally be release blocking features (the merge, etc) but that's not the common case</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik: also, being able to better know "hey, this thing we've been touting is in trouble...  can anyone else jump in to help out"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: I agree that make more sense.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Maybe we should say something about: Instead of having must have features, we need to have proposed features and a drop dead date when we still have time to back out any changes that cannot be completed in time.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">warren: nice.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: we have that... "feature freeze"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">I encourage people to look at <a href="https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs">https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">abadger1999: and that's where "rollback" plans are important in features.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Feature priority, current status, who is accountable, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: that is nice.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">warren: I particularly liked the 'proposed' vs 'approved' state.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">f13: that's not covered in the draft at all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">f13, nod</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: But it's not clear that We are abandoning "must-haves" and this policy intends to give us a new workable model.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren: There is one thing I don't like about Ubunu's feature tracking:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting: didn't you have that as a suggestion comment?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: there is no discussion of "must have" in the proposal... except the problem statement</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> which I think should be removed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Often they run into the same problems as we do with raising expectations surrounding features that don't make the cutoff.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> poelcat: there is also the "time based vs feature based" discussion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">abadger1999, perhaps we should be more careful about what exactly is the higher priority, where is the blocker cut-off line</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999, the accountable assignee is truly responsible for the failure of the feature.  If they aren't, then it cannot be a blocker.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">warren: Yes.  I'm just saying their tool looks great but they're running into the same problems we are in terms of policy and managing expectations.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger1999: hmm maybe time vs feature discussion is distracted and should be removed?  comments?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">abadger1999: as long as you're open and transparent about things in advance, then that's always going to be something of a problem</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">s/distratcted/distractinmg</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> s/distratcted/distracting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: At least, it should have a definite conclusion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">abadger1999: but if you have regular updates to feature status then you can hopefully a) catch things early enough that it's not entirely burned into people's brains that it's coming or b) get help</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">if we set expectation at feature freeze... that is 2 months before ga</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">and building up to feature freeze</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">jeremy: I agree 100%.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">Sorry, connexion problems.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: no worries.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> anyone else have any thoughts on this before we move on?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">how would people prefer to see the merge/update of this document... new wiki page preserving original or edit original removing all comments, names, etc.?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: I'm fine with editing the original.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">edit... there are always diffs and such you can get out of the wiki</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">edit</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">poelcat, just edit the original and put "revision 0.2" or something there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">gotcha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'd like to talk about the idea of having FESCo ratify a feature before it goes from proposed to the actualy Fedora/8/FeatureList page</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">or at least some sort of ratification procedure... anyway.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">just a sanity catch to prevent crazy ass things from landing there and getting media attention, to make sure there is a proper rollback plan, etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">that seems like more overhead... what would that solve?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: wasn't that in notting's suggestion on the page?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: it might have been, but we haven't talked much about it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">bpepple: my suggestion was that there be *a* policy on if features need it or not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">no suggestion on what that policy is</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, what if the crazy ass things come from the board?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">poelcat: Maybe merge scheduling with the Problem statement: "Fedora operates on a time based release.  In the past, features have caused us to slip.  This policy seeks to help us address that."</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: making sure the feature is well thought out / planned, isn't illegal, etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">couldn't the feature czar police those?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, nevermind don't answer my question now.  it's immaterial to the subject</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: I'd rather the engineering body of Fedora do it (:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> nirik: rather than a single decision maker.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (no offence to poelcat at all)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">f13: none taken; I agree :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">ok, fair enough.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">now I can't sneak in the new google desktop search though</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">poelcat, fix beagle to not suck</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik goes back to erase the 'mp3 support in all audio applications' feature he was going to submit. ;) </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Proposal:  FESCo reviews proposed features for approval by vote.  Feature proposer must be present in meeting to answer questions etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik, you mean Code Buddy? :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: I suspect we want to delegate, not have it be all of fesco</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">f13: One thing about that</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Timexzones.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">yeah, i'm not sure having the feature proposer present is going to work. maybe having *someone* who can speak for it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jeremy: *shrug* if FESCo wants to delegate that's fine.  I don't think this would take a whole lot of time to just sanity check feature proposals.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">f13: feature review sound good to me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: that works, representative.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">ok, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">notting, f13: That would be fine by me.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1 although I suspect we can be reasonable if someone can't show up.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">tibbs: sure, I'd hate to deny something if the person isn't there, but approval is probably fine.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so then at some point we need to ack all the existing features? after the features policy is accepted I guess...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">"it is preferable if someone is able to answer questions about the feature during the FESCo meeting; questions may be moved to the list if necessary"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">in fact, lets just take that part off the proposal, that's really in implementation of the feature review, this is just FESCo should review the features and +1/-1 them.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: worksforme</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, that more than half of FESCo.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">s/that/than/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">hopefully it's a rubber stamp process in 99% of cases</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">+1 from me again I guess</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> indeed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, we should probably move on now.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">if we see the same issues coming up over and over we can improve the docs that lead people through creating proposals.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: thanks for your time.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- All new packages (including compat packages) must be reviewed before cvs import - spot</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">bpepple: you're welcome</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">spot: you wanted to discuss this.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">seems obvious, but i think its worth making firm.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">+1 from me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">spot did this come from the attempt to add a compat package without review?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jwb: yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">spot, has that maintainer been corrected?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">jwb: technically, no policy existed that was clear. this removes any confusion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">jwb: Face has been saved all around.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">should we also have a clear "you can't approve your own package" rule?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">spot: I say your proposal has been appoved. :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1 with the caveat that it might be nice to give reviews of introduced compat packages priority</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, why?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: because they're usually involved in fixing repo breakage</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I don't think we can legislate what reviewers decide to review...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">rdieter, right...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">rdieter: agreed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, maybe those maintainers can ping rel-eng to review it</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> as a suggestion</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">nirik: does "your own package" count comaintainers?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: maybe as a more general solution to have a way to highlight reviews that are blocking XYZ (whether that be other reviews, features, or bugs)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">not sure. I guess it's fuzzier.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, can't you just use bugzilla in that case?  mark the review as blocking some bug?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">nirik: I'd hope not, it devalues comaint...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">most of the time a quick message to the mailing list, will get a reviewer.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">rdieter, i think the qualification should be "the submitter cannot approve his own package"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: possibly. makes it hard to query. but this is off in the weeds</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">jwb: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, agreed.  we can come up with some suggested guidelines there later i guess</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">nirik: for example, i did a merge review of someone else's package and then signed up to maintain it for epel</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">yea, no need to penalize comaintainers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">agreed. I think thats ok.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">the rule should be "the one who wrote the .spec" != "the one doing the review"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">anyhow, off topic, shall we move on and discuss that later?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">c4chris: +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> nirik: yeah, we should move on.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">c4chris: yeah, and I have seen that in reviews... person A submits, person B reviews, person B re-writes the entire spec, person B approves it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">c4chris: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Time to move on.....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Opening FESCo election vote to more people - <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/FranchisementGrantProposals">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/FranchisementGrantProposals</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">quaid brought this up on the mailing list about opening up the people eligible to vote in the election.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">"Franchisement Grant"?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* warren sorry, had a phone call.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">fedora! franchise opportunities available.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">personally, i like Bruno Wolff's proposal</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I don't want to open up to the world of cla signers.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">what is the current rule? only cvsextras?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">im ok with cla_done voting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">nirik: Yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nirik: yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Far too restrictive</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">abadger1999: perhaps anyone with some kind of cvs commit access</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">is it possible to restrict voting to cla_done *if* they gained cla_done before X date?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">bruno's sounds like the easiest one to implement. therefore i like it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">dgilmore, that's what Bruno Wolff's proposal basically is</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">That would work.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jwb: Well... his is *much* more broad.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Proposal is that anyone that has a fedora account group other than cla_done or cla_fedora or alternatively is a member of the EditGroup for the wiki should be able to vote</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">what's the board voting group? cla_done?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">abadger1999, because he includes the wiki edit group?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">notting: i believe so</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: anybody in EditGroup must have cla_done, so that's redundant.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, no it's not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">There is no easy 1:1 mapping of wiki accounts to FAS names either.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">cla_done != all other groups combined.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, because you can have cla_done and have never done a single thing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">I'd prefer to have voters who actually *do* something in Fedora</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">c4chris, quantify "do"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">cla_done != people who do things</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">jwb: oh I see the joining there.  I was misreading the logic.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">s/all other groups/committing groups/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">do = add package, write doc, write wiki, report bugs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Keep in mind that any line drawn must be easy to enforce using FAS.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">c4chris: so, that's sort of what we tried to do for the name voting - we restricted it to art, packaging, docs, qa, i18n, and so on</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">triage bugs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">c4chris, that's what Bruno's proposal is</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">ok, then I like it :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">the only tricky part of his proposal is the wiki edit group</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> due to the lack of linkage with FAS</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jwb: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">doesn't anyone know off hand how many people we have with accounts and cla_done and nothing else?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">In the absence of a better way to automate a line drawing of "people who do things" cla_done is acceptable.  However I would propose limiting voting to people who gained cla_done before a certain date.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I would like to propose doing something only for this election: using Bruno Wolff's proposal minus EditGroup.  Candidates to be drawn from any of the committer groups in fas.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">In the future I hope we can have the capability to draw a line somewhere above cla_done that is still easy to automate, perhaps with the ranking system.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">abadger1999: is a 'committer group' basically any non cla_XXX group?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">notting: do you want it to be?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">abadger1999, candidates meaning what?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">we need to not use the word 'committer'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I was thinking those who had commit access "cvs* git* hg*" type groups.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> If people want candidates == voters that's fine.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">abadger1999, no</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">abadger1999: i'd just have !cla_* ; brings in art, qa, ambassadors, etc</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: -1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting: yea, those should be in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: +1.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">notting: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting: +</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> s/+/+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Revised proposal for this election only: all !cla_ groups can vote and be candidates for FESCo.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">for this election only... then we revisit how to do it after the election.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">nirik: Right.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">abadger1999: +1 . from what i understand, this requires enumerating them all in the voting app?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">so all that would do is leave out wiki only contributors.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">oh, and are we waiting for the FPB election?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13, correct</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">er, all that would leave out that is.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">I recommend that when we tell people about this, we suggest that anyone who only has EditGroup go and join another group, if they want to vote.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: I agree with allow them to vote, but not having them be candidates.  Could we seperate your proposal into 2?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">f13: and 'users'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">notting: Yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: well yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">bpepple: That was my first proposal....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple: Pose an alternate proposal?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Propsal: all !cla_ groups can vote  for FESCo.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid, sure.  but it won't be an instant thing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">日本語</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> oops</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid, "go and join another group" often takes time</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">jwb: just didn't want to have those folks miss out if they "only" edit the wiki</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">bpepple: With candidates only from cvsextras?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid, understood</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: correct.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">jwb: true; but cvsdocs does our best to make it easy, that's the group I'd hope all of those stragglers might join</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quaid, great!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">quaid: sounds good</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1 here also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Question... if FESCO's jurisdiction is the package collection, why do non-package developers get to vote?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">I'm not too worried about getting unwanted candidates that get voted in...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren: because our decisions affect them?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">warren, because our decisions effect more than just package maintainers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">ok, good reason.  proceed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">ok, so +1 to bpepple's proposal from me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">but since we are a trechnical committee, I suppose committers is good</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1 to the current proposal from bpepple</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">That is !cla_* voters, cvsextras candidates?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: correct.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">quaid</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">warren: FESCo's authority has grown; even groups that are not direct reports (Docs) are affected in a way that is nearly authority-over</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">ok, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">fine with me. +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, I see seven '+1'.  so that has been approved.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: How much time will it take to modify the election software for this?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">although I have to admit that it seems weird for FESCo to decide who will elect it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">tibbs, somebody had to ratify the U.S. Constitution...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">bpepple: The elction software will handle this aspect fine.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: great.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ok, we're just about out of time for this week.  Anything else pressing we need to talk about?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">quick on</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> e</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> i hope</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple hopes also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">in the future, can we have people send Draft proposals to a public list first?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris can't see why not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">sounds like a good idea to me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jwb: I'm fine with that.  f13 have you had a chance to work on the proposal template at all?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: I haven't yet.  Struggling with how 'red tapy' we want to make it, and well other fires.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">ugh. wireless.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">notting, iwl3945?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: no problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">warren: no, i've already fallen back to orinoco</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">end meeting?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">does anyone have a problem with jwb's suggestion.  otherwise I'm going to add it to my meeting summary.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">no problemo</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: yeah, I think it's time to end it.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will end the meeting in 60</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple will end the meeting in 30</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple will end the meeting in 15</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">-- MARK -- Meeting End</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Thanks, everyone!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">thanks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Thanks bpepple</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">thanks bpepple</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting, i don't think you ever got an answer to your "are we waiting until after the FPB election" question</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jwb: The plan is to have it the week after the FPB.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">bpepple, ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I didn't give an exact date, since Max mentioned that the FPB election could be delayed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">why?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">he was worried there wouldn't be enough candidates.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I'm not sure if that is still a problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">ah, seems there are plenty now :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">bpepple: currenty 5 there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that's good.  though I think we still only have 13 candidates, though I'll be sending out another reminder soon.</td></tr>
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