From Fedora Project Wiki
< BugZappers | Meetings
| poelcat | who is in the house? | 10:00 |
|---|---|---|
| * stickster here to audit | 10:00 | |
| * DemonJester | 10:00 | |
| jds2001 | f13: I've been reading that thread with great interest, but your idea got lost i guess :) | 10:01 |
| jds2001 | i'll look again i guess :) | 10:01 |
| poelcat | stickster: i thought you weren't auditing any more :) | 10:01 |
| stickster | Well, I'm half-auditing :-D | 10:01 |
| jds2001 | stickster is a full-on participant now :) | 10:01 |
| stickster | Yeah, you caught me | 10:01 |
| poelcat | hello DemonJester jds2001 | 10:01 |
| * stickster does a crappy job of being a ninja | 10:01 | |
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| stickster | "The Ninja Who Wore White" | 10:01 |
| * SMParrish Here | 10:02 | |
| f13 | jds2001: essentially triage folks who go to SIG meetings and spend a small time running through any 'easyfix' bugs that are within the SIG domain, letting the sig discuss/decide, and then doing whatever to the bug is necessary | 10:02 |
| poelcat | mcepl: around? | 10:02 |
| poelcat | f13: there is also the corresponding Keyword "patch" i've been putting on bugs | 10:03 |
| f13 | nod | 10:03 |
| mcepl | poelcat: yes | 10:03 |
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| poelcat | people really do include patches | 10:03 |
| poelcat | :) | 10:03 |
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| jds2001 | and it's a real shame if they include patches and they dont at least get an ack/nack from the maintainer :/ | 10:04 |
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| poelcat | Should we wait for anyone else? | 10:05 |
| comphappy | woke up 40 sec ago heh | 10:05 |
| jds2001 | btw, ajax mentioned (and rightly so) that if he read all of his bugmail, he'd get nothing else accomplished. How to handle special cases like that? mcepl probably has the best ideas here :) | 10:05 |
| poelcat | comphappy: :) | 10:05 |
| poelcat | thanks for rising early | 10:06 |
| jds2001 | that's right, it's 7AM for you left-coasters :) | 10:06 |
| poelcat | did anyone have any additional agenda topics? | 10:06 |
| * jds2001 thought that you were taking care of the agenda :) | 10:06 | |
| poelcat | i did :) | 10:06 |
| comphappy | I would like some input on what people want in the metrics stuff I am writing | 10:07 |
| f13 | jds2001: that was my triage people to sig meeting thought to solve the 'I can't read bugmail' problem. | 10:07 |
| poelcat | let's start w/ f13's topic | 10:07 |
| poelcat | my only thought so far was sending people URL queries of: "help us with these bugs" | 10:08 |
| * poelcat is seeing the same problem w/ bugs set to NEEDINFO for maintainers | 10:08 | |
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| mcepl | jds2001: there is a query https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=runnamed&namedcmd=XGL%20having%20patch&namedowner=mcepl%40redhat.com giving all Xorg bugs with EasyFix or Patch keywords and then I set up whinning to make a weekly run of this query and send email which si then redirected to ajax. Except ajax discards all bugmail from bugzilla, including this one, so I had to remind him about the existence of this weekly mail ;-) | 10:08 |
| poelcat | comphappy: okay we'll cover that too | 10:08 |
| comphappy | so are we are taking about the mail generated by BZ? | 10:09 |
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| poelcat | comphappy: correct... there was a recent thread on f-d-l about maintainers drowning in bz emails | 10:09 |
| mcepl | jds2001: not sure, how to expand it to the bugzilla-wide level (I had to split my original one query into two -- one Xorg and other Gecko -- because people complained about getting a list of bugs which doesn't concern them) | 10:09 |
| mcepl | poelcat: my experience is that NEEDINFO set to maintainer is one of the best ways how to get bug lost. | 10:10 |
| poelcat | oh no :( | 10:10 |
| mcepl | with some people (ehm, ajax) is works like 100% | 10:11 |
| * poelcat has been going through the oldest NEW rawhide bugs and finding a lot of "do these still apply any more" bugs | 10:11 | |
| mcepl | (note that he is very good in going through bugs which are ASSIGNED to him) | 10:11 |
| poelcat | could someone research this topic a little more, maybe post to the list with ideas and we can revisit next week? | 10:12 |
| poelcat | f13: did you have any ideas on how to fix the situation? | 10:13 |
| poelcat | mcepl: does the nag mail have any special mail headers? | 10:13 |
| poelcat | mcepl: or wonder if we could have some added? | 10:13 |
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| mcepl | I think it has special Subject | 10:13 |
| mcepl | (you can set the Subject for your whines) | 10:14 |
| poelcat | it is kind of a hard problem to solve people really don't want to receive the mail | 10:14 |
| poelcat | would RSS help at all? | 10:14 |
| f13 | poelcat: I think the only real solution is to A) get more qualified people interested in the software, and B) in person discussion. Email just gets lost | 10:15 |
| f13 | poelcat: people like ajax are more than welcome of qualified comaintainers | 10:15 |
| poelcat | f13: so we're coming up against a shortage of package maintainers? | 10:16 |
| jds2001 | yeah that "qualified" part is the problem. He maintains what I think is probably the most difficult codebase there is to get someone new into. | 10:16 |
| f13 | poelcat: to some extent yes. | 10:16 |
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| mcepl | poelcat: you have to specifically contact maintainers and ask them if they want to get these emails. We are back at the square one -- we are here to help developers as they want to be served. Otherwise it doesn't work. | 10:16 |
| f13 | poelcat: there is an abundance of people who can massage specs | 10:16 |
| poelcat | i think this came up too when we started the moving a lot of bugs around in Feb and some raised the issue of bugs that had been open for > 1 year never looked at and then closed | 10:17 |
| poelcat | but I suppose that is getting off topic for our meeting | 10:17 |
| poelcat | however... kind of touches on what comphappy is working on | 10:17 |
| poelcat | comphappy: could we help with any stats in this area? | 10:17 |
| comphappy | Well I think we need to generate some kind of "wish list" for it | 10:18 |
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| comphappy | I have been sifting through the Bugzilla API the last few days trying to understand the best way to approach the history portion | 10:18 |
| poelcat | stickster f13 is there any data we can help provide that would help increase participation? | 10:19 |
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| poelcat | kind of a reach, but i thought worth at least asking | 10:20 |
| comphappy | Are people wanting stats that show the distribution of the age of the bugs? | 10:20 |
| poelcat | comphappy: that is what I'm wondering | 10:20 |
| poelcat | would it help if we could show that ___ % bugs never get touched and closed EOL, etc. | 10:20 |
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| mcepl | comphappy: actually, I don't if it is worthy for you, but I have here Python scripts which (using XML-RPC) download all bugs from a set of components to MySQL. Would you be interested? | 10:21 |
| poelcat | or would that just be demoralizing data w/o really helping anyone | 10:21 |
| mcepl | *I don't know | 10:21 |
| f13 | increase participation in what? | 10:21 |
| comphappy | bug triage | 10:21 |
| f13 | oh, doing the metrics ? | 10:21 |
| poelcat | f13: i was referring package maintainers | 10:21 |
| poelcat | IOW while we are working on creating better metrics on reporting on how we are doing can we help other people too? | 10:22 |
| mcepl | I think that what mostly increases participation if we make bug triaging more sexy and that is done from the results, so let's make some results! | 10:22 |
| comphappy | mcepl: I will take it, but right now I am working off of wwoods python-bugzilla XMLRPC work | 10:22 |
| stickster | poelcat: How much additional documentation has been {warranted, scoped, written} since we got a new Docs person involved here? | 10:22 |
| stickster | poelcat: (This goes to your question about what we can provide to increase participation) | 10:23 |
| mcepl | comphappy: of course it uses that | 10:23 |
| jds2001 | stickster: not much :( | 10:23 |
| mcepl | comphappy: http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/repo/dumpBugzilla.git/ | 10:23 |
| jds2001 | i think that's partly our fault too :( | 10:23 |
| wwoods | comphappy: yeah, let me know if you have questions about the API | 10:23 |
| wwoods | or wishlist stuff. still need to check with dkl about a couple things.. | 10:24 |
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| comphappy | dkl? | 10:24 |
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| jds2001 | rhbz maintainer :) | 10:24 |
| jds2001 | dave lawrence | 10:24 |
| wwoods | comphappy: Dave Lawrence, main RHBZ maintainer (and all-around awesome guy) | 10:24 |
| stickster | super-awesome | 10:25 |
| poelcat | okay so what types of things should we add to our "reporting wishlist" ? | 10:25 |
| poelcat | then we'll start talking about "doing stuff" mcepl :) | 10:25 |
| comphappy | he is going to have to be involved to some extent if we want to drag in the user stats as they are not assessable through the API as far as i can tel | 10:26 |
| stickster | To whom are we reporting these wishlist items? Triage group? | 10:26 |
| poelcat | stickster: wishlist of triage activity (or lack thereof) reports | 10:27 |
| jds2001 | that's another item - there is no such thing as the "triage" group | 10:27 |
| stickster | So fedora-test-list | 10:27 |
| poelcat | well we have http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers | 10:27 |
| jds2001 | there's f-t-l, but the scope of that is much wider | 10:27 |
| poelcat | jds2001: ever time i bring up a separate mailing list most people disagree :) | 10:28 |
| jds2001 | yeah i know :) | 10:28 |
| stickster | OK, I don't want to bring that up either right now :-) | 10:28 |
| poelcat | comphappy: so for starters... i think we need the "triager stats" | 10:29 |
| mcepl | poelcat: I don't | 10:29 |
| mcepl | (sorry, I don't disagree) | 10:29 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: why not? | 10:29 |
| comphappy | oh an that is going to require some access the the raw BZ database or a dump of the data | 10:29 |
| jds2001 | oh, OK :) | 10:29 |
| mcepl | I am not sure, whether it should be a place of all discussion, but it would be nice to have one email address as a contact point for all things bug-triage | 10:30 |
| poelcat | comphappy: do you think that python script i sent is workable or something better? | 10:30 |
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| comphappy | i looked at it a while ago, what I am doing goes off the xmlrpc so it is live data | 10:31 |
| poelcat | comphappy: i'll take an action to talk to the RHT bz guys about best way we can proceed | 10:31 |
| jds2001 | comphappy: i can setup a bz 2.18 instance for ya if you want | 10:31 |
| jds2001 | it would be upstream 2.18, which is what rhbz is based on (severely hacked up though) | 10:32 |
| comphappy | we are shifting to 3 in a week or so no? | 10:32 |
| stickster | Let's get back to the topic of metrics. What are we pulling and providing right now? And where is that list provided? | 10:32 |
| mcepl | comphappy: and actually, my experience with dkl is that if you need something (and you can explain why you need it), you can have some modification of bugzilla done (probably it helps to have @redhat.com in email address, but I can help) | 10:32 |
| poelcat | comphappy: i'm glad to help with that part | 10:32 |
| jds2001 | stickster: i have some queries, ran em once (was intending to every month) sent em to some folks and heard silence | 10:33 |
| comphappy | we still dont have a list of what we want this thing to do... | 10:33 |
| mcepl | stickster: I am afraid nowhere, and everybody is reinventing the whell all over again :-( | 10:33 |
| jds2001 | but i dunno that those reports are worthwhile | 10:33 |
| stickster | jds2001: Where could people find the queries you ran? (Not results, but the queries) | 10:33 |
| jds2001 | on my workstation :) | 10:34 |
| stickster | Here's what I'm getting at --let's get those somewhere public | 10:34 |
| stickster | That's step 1 | 10:34 |
| poelcat | what were people's thoughts on this https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-June/msg00033.html | 10:34 |
| poelcat | besides the fact that "metrics are dangerous" ;-) | 10:34 |
| poelcat | that was what I was putting forth | 10:34 |
| poelcat | show activity by person | 10:34 |
| stickster | Then 2. see about automating it | 10:34 |
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| mcepl | jds2001: are you aware of the existence of the list of all your saved queries (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=saved-searches)? | 10:36 |
| comphappy | part of my idea of running it as a tg app is that it would be live and we would all have one condensed set of tools | 10:36 |
| * stickster sure jds2001 is, even now, pulling those queries up and posting them somewhere :-) | 10:36 | |
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| * poelcat has another meeting at the top of th hour... should we come back to this next week? | 10:37 | |
| comphappy | I will open up a wiki page for this? | 10:37 |
| jds2001 | darn i forgot - the report URL's have my bugzilla username and password in em since that was the only way to make em work | 10:38 |
| jds2001 | i'll take that out and make em public (they'll work in a browser, just not the scripted way I was using em) | 10:38 |
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| stickster | jds2001: understood | 10:38 |
| poelcat | jds2001: we could set those up w/ a special ID that is RO | 10:38 |
| poelcat | to bugzilla | 10:39 |
| comphappy | on a side note, those greasemonkey tools are not on the tools list | 10:39 |
| stickster | poelcat: +1 on making the next action "post this stuff to wiki" and moving on | 10:39 |
| poelcat | okay mcepl has raise the important point a few times about "what are our goals"? | 10:40 |
| poelcat | let's talk about that before we run out of time | 10:40 |
| poelcat | what do we all want to be focusing on in terms of actual bug triage? | 10:41 |
| * poelcat proposes all rawhide bugs which are in NEW | 10:41 | |
| poelcat | keeping in mind this is our current focus culminating with GA of F10 | 10:41 |
| stickster | 0. Make it easier for developers to concentrate on current and compelling bugs in current releases of Fedora. 1. Bring entries in Bugzilla in line with reality of bugs in Fedora. 3. Produce helpful information about bug trends. | 10:43 |
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| stickster | That was more of a suggestion for goals, less about focus. | 10:43 |
| * stickster feels half-cocked here. | 10:44 | |
| mcepl | stickster: sorry, to oppose you, but that's exactly an example, what I don't think should be our goals. It should be something clear, and measurable. So, poelcat's all Rawhide NEW bugs are much close to what I think it the right answer. | 10:45 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: that's a focus, not goals :) | 10:45 |
| mcepl | your set is so general, that we cannot every see any tangible results from tyhat | 10:45 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: goals, but their nature, aren't really measurable | 10:45 |
| comphappy | fyi https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Metrics | 10:46 |
| mcepl | OK, I stand corrected. | 10:46 |
| jds2001 | s/but/by | 10:46 |
| jds2001 | a focus is very measurable :) | 10:46 |
| stickster | mcepl: I see your point, and I agree that my suggestion wasn't good for measurement. And I don't want to reinvent a wheel here. | 10:46 |
| stickster | For the more tangible objectives... | 10:46 |
| comphappy | perhaps a # goal for the amount of open bugs at shift from rawhide to F10 | 10:47 |
| stickster | What about something like "Move X% of all NEW Rawhide bugs to a more accurate status"? | 10:47 |
| poelcat | i propose all NEW rawhide bugs so we are in better shape when a lot of them become F10 and to be able to clearly see new rawhide bugs coming once alpha, beta, pr start | 10:48 |
| stickster | 100% is a clear objective :-) | 10:48 |
| stickster | poelcat: Do you feel it's also worthwhile to kick the tires of all NEEDINFO bugs at least once as well? | 10:49 |
| jds2001 | NEEDINFO older than 30 days, yeah | 10:49 |
| jds2001 | we actually have a policy that those can be closed - but I exercise discretion in that area. | 10:49 |
| mcepl | stickster: actually, this is my question -- I tend to struggle between two rules -- either "don't leave bug until it is in the state you want it to be" and "just go through simple bugs first, to have time for the more complicated ones" (http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200008/200008.htm) | 10:50 |
| stickster | Well, if there is a clear policy, you don't want to spin wheels revisiting a lot of bugs | 10:50 |
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| poelcat | jds2001: i say leave NEEDINFO for now and just focus on NEW | 10:51 |
| comphappy | this all goes back to what Metrics will show us | 10:51 |
| poelcat | really knock those down... right now we're sitting fairly consistently at 1400 | 10:51 |
| poelcat | if 14 people triaged 100 bugs ... all gone | 10:51 |
| stickster | And I think there should be an additional objective, regarding better startup documentation. | 10:51 |
| poelcat | well sort of :) | 10:51 |
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| comphappy | yes | 10:52 |
| comphappy | stickster: I was planing on trying to clean some of the wiki up for that | 10:52 |
| poelcat | i've found that a lot of them are pretty easy even w/o knowing the component (which is most of the time for me :) | 10:52 |
| stickster | comphappy: What do you need to get started? | 10:52 |
| comphappy | the issue is some of our policies are not even documented there, you have to go to fedora-qa and ask and wait | 10:53 |
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| poelcat | comphappy: that is bad | 10:53 |
| stickster | comphappy: Because I would call this objective more important than a TG app rightnow | 10:53 |
| stickster | And any time those answers are found, they ought to be posted in a clear policy area. | 10:53 |
| comphappy | Well i will make it a goal that by next week to have some of it sorted out | 10:54 |
| comphappy | then feedback? | 10:54 |
| stickster | comphappy: That is AWESOME. | 10:54 |
| comphappy | looks like we have about 5min left any trailing ends? | 10:55 |
| * stickster shuts the heck up. | 10:55 | |
| stickster | OK, I lied. | 10:55 |
| comphappy | a log of this will be posted correct? | 10:55 |
| jds2001 | yep | 10:56 |
| jds2001 | you want me to take care of that poelcat? | 10:56 |
| poelcat | mcepl: are you cool with "the goal"? | 10:56 |
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| poelcat | jds2001: please | 10:56 |
| mcepl | yes | 10:56 |
| comphappy | any other goals to have done by next week | 10:56 |
| poelcat | note that irc2html.py does mediawiki now | 10:56 |
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| stickster | I think that as we go forward, we have to be constantly thinking, "How do I make it as easy as possible for Joe Poweruser to understand (1) where we need help, (2) how to help, and (3) what results or information he needs to pass on for others to do the same. | 10:57 |
| poelcat | i say we shoot for rawhide bugs: NEW == 1200 next week | 10:57 |
| jds2001 | oh, I was just gonna post the raw text :) irclog2html would be better | 10:57 |
| stickster | Awesome | 10:57 |
| comphappy | I will create a Goal page as well in my cleanup | 10:57 |
| * jds2001 gets busy :) | 10:57 | |
| * poelcat commits to sending meeting agenda for next week's meeting by Friday | 10:57 | |
| comphappy | I may not be able to make it next week, but I will pass on any q and work i have done to poelcat | 10:58 |
| * stickster will commit to helping several hours this week with some triage, after work hours | 10:58 | |
| poelcat | comphappy: excellent! | 10:58 |
| poelcat | stickster: if there is a special time you want to do it | 10:59 |
| jds2001 | stickster: excellent, I'm mostly around after work hours if you need help :) | 10:59 |
| poelcat | we could all try to gather at a certain time/day | 10:59 |
| * poelcat has to run | 10:59 | |
| poelcat | thanks everyone! | 10:59 |
| stickster | Thanks poelcat | 10:59 |
| stickster | Thanks everybody | 10:59 |
| * stickster hopes he didn't cause meeting suck. | 10:59 | |
| comphappy | this was more productive then the meeting i am off to is going to be | 10:59 |
| jds2001 | nope, you caused meeting productive :) | 10:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt! [jstanley@bigbrother ~]$ cat triage-0715.log.html
| poelcat | who is in the house? | 10:00 |
|---|---|---|
| * stickster here to audit | 10:00 | |
| * DemonJester | 10:00 | |
| jds2001 | f13: I've been reading that thread with great interest, but your idea got lost i guess :) | 10:01 |
| jds2001 | i'll look again i guess :) | 10:01 |
| poelcat | stickster: i thought you weren't auditing any more :) | 10:01 |
| stickster | Well, I'm half-auditing :-D | 10:01 |
| jds2001 | stickster is a full-on participant now :) | 10:01 |
| stickster | Yeah, you caught me | 10:01 |
| poelcat | hello DemonJester jds2001 | 10:01 |
| * stickster does a crappy job of being a ninja | 10:01 | |
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| stickster | "The Ninja Who Wore White" | 10:01 |
| * SMParrish Here | 10:02 | |
| f13 | jds2001: essentially triage folks who go to SIG meetings and spend a small time running through any 'easyfix' bugs that are within the SIG domain, letting the sig discuss/decide, and then doing whatever to the bug is necessary | 10:02 |
| poelcat | mcepl: around? | 10:02 |
| poelcat | f13: there is also the corresponding Keyword "patch" i've been putting on bugs | 10:03 |
| f13 | nod | 10:03 |
| mcepl | poelcat: yes | 10:03 |
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| poelcat | people really do include patches | 10:03 |
| poelcat | :) | 10:03 |
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| jds2001 | and it's a real shame if they include patches and they dont at least get an ack/nack from the maintainer :/ | 10:04 |
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| poelcat | Should we wait for anyone else? | 10:05 |
| comphappy | woke up 40 sec ago heh | 10:05 |
| jds2001 | btw, ajax mentioned (and rightly so) that if he read all of his bugmail, he'd get nothing else accomplished. How to handle special cases like that? mcepl probably has the best ideas here :) | 10:05 |
| poelcat | comphappy: :) | 10:05 |
| poelcat | thanks for rising early | 10:06 |
| jds2001 | that's right, it's 7AM for you left-coasters :) | 10:06 |
| poelcat | did anyone have any additional agenda topics? | 10:06 |
| * jds2001 thought that you were taking care of the agenda :) | 10:06 | |
| poelcat | i did :) | 10:06 |
| comphappy | I would like some input on what people want in the metrics stuff I am writing | 10:07 |
| f13 | jds2001: that was my triage people to sig meeting thought to solve the 'I can't read bugmail' problem. | 10:07 |
| poelcat | let's start w/ f13's topic | 10:07 |
| poelcat | my only thought so far was sending people URL queries of: "help us with these bugs" | 10:08 |
| * poelcat is seeing the same problem w/ bugs set to NEEDINFO for maintainers | 10:08 | |
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| mcepl | jds2001: there is a query https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=runnamed&namedcmd=XGL%20having%20patch&namedowner=mcepl%40redhat.com giving all Xorg bugs with EasyFix or Patch keywords and then I set up whinning to make a weekly run of this query and send email which si then redirected to ajax. Except ajax discards all bugmail from bugzilla, including this one, so I had to remind him about the existence of this weekly mail ;-) | 10:08 |
| poelcat | comphappy: okay we'll cover that too | 10:08 |
| comphappy | so are we are taking about the mail generated by BZ? | 10:09 |
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| poelcat | comphappy: correct... there was a recent thread on f-d-l about maintainers drowning in bz emails | 10:09 |
| mcepl | jds2001: not sure, how to expand it to the bugzilla-wide level (I had to split my original one query into two -- one Xorg and other Gecko -- because people complained about getting a list of bugs which doesn't concern them) | 10:09 |
| mcepl | poelcat: my experience is that NEEDINFO set to maintainer is one of the best ways how to get bug lost. | 10:10 |
| poelcat | oh no :( | 10:10 |
| mcepl | with some people (ehm, ajax) is works like 100% | 10:11 |
| * poelcat has been going through the oldest NEW rawhide bugs and finding a lot of "do these still apply any more" bugs | 10:11 | |
| mcepl | (note that he is very good in going through bugs which are ASSIGNED to him) | 10:11 |
| poelcat | could someone research this topic a little more, maybe post to the list with ideas and we can revisit next week? | 10:12 |
| poelcat | f13: did you have any ideas on how to fix the situation? | 10:13 |
| poelcat | mcepl: does the nag mail have any special mail headers? | 10:13 |
| poelcat | mcepl: or wonder if we could have some added? | 10:13 |
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| mcepl | I think it has special Subject | 10:13 |
| mcepl | (you can set the Subject for your whines) | 10:14 |
| poelcat | it is kind of a hard problem to solve people really don't want to receive the mail | 10:14 |
| poelcat | would RSS help at all? | 10:14 |
| f13 | poelcat: I think the only real solution is to A) get more qualified people interested in the software, and B) in person discussion. Email just gets lost | 10:15 |
| f13 | poelcat: people like ajax are more than welcome of qualified comaintainers | 10:15 |
| poelcat | f13: so we're coming up against a shortage of package maintainers? | 10:16 |
| jds2001 | yeah that "qualified" part is the problem. He maintains what I think is probably the most difficult codebase there is to get someone new into. | 10:16 |
| f13 | poelcat: to some extent yes. | 10:16 |
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| mcepl | poelcat: you have to specifically contact maintainers and ask them if they want to get these emails. We are back at the square one -- we are here to help developers as they want to be served. Otherwise it doesn't work. | 10:16 |
| f13 | poelcat: there is an abundance of people who can massage specs | 10:16 |
| poelcat | i think this came up too when we started the moving a lot of bugs around in Feb and some raised the issue of bugs that had been open for > 1 year never looked at and then closed | 10:17 |
| poelcat | but I suppose that is getting off topic for our meeting | 10:17 |
| poelcat | however... kind of touches on what comphappy is working on | 10:17 |
| poelcat | comphappy: could we help with any stats in this area? | 10:17 |
| comphappy | Well I think we need to generate some kind of "wish list" for it | 10:18 |
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| comphappy | I have been sifting through the Bugzilla API the last few days trying to understand the best way to approach the history portion | 10:18 |
| poelcat | stickster f13 is there any data we can help provide that would help increase participation? | 10:19 |
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| poelcat | kind of a reach, but i thought worth at least asking | 10:20 |
| comphappy | Are people wanting stats that show the distribution of the age of the bugs? | 10:20 |
| poelcat | comphappy: that is what I'm wondering | 10:20 |
| poelcat | would it help if we could show that ___ % bugs never get touched and closed EOL, etc. | 10:20 |
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| mcepl | comphappy: actually, I don't if it is worthy for you, but I have here Python scripts which (using XML-RPC) download all bugs from a set of components to MySQL. Would you be interested? | 10:21 |
| poelcat | or would that just be demoralizing data w/o really helping anyone | 10:21 |
| mcepl | *I don't know | 10:21 |
| f13 | increase participation in what? | 10:21 |
| comphappy | bug triage | 10:21 |
| f13 | oh, doing the metrics ? | 10:21 |
| poelcat | f13: i was referring package maintainers | 10:21 |
| poelcat | IOW while we are working on creating better metrics on reporting on how we are doing can we help other people too? | 10:22 |
| mcepl | I think that what mostly increases participation if we make bug triaging more sexy and that is done from the results, so let's make some results! | 10:22 |
| comphappy | mcepl: I will take it, but right now I am working off of wwoods python-bugzilla XMLRPC work | 10:22 |
| stickster | poelcat: How much additional documentation has been {warranted, scoped, written} since we got a new Docs person involved here? | 10:22 |
| stickster | poelcat: (This goes to your question about what we can provide to increase participation) | 10:23 |
| mcepl | comphappy: of course it uses that | 10:23 |
| jds2001 | stickster: not much :( | 10:23 |
| mcepl | comphappy: http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/repo/dumpBugzilla.git/ | 10:23 |
| jds2001 | i think that's partly our fault too :( | 10:23 |
| wwoods | comphappy: yeah, let me know if you have questions about the API | 10:23 |
| wwoods | or wishlist stuff. still need to check with dkl about a couple things.. | 10:24 |
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| comphappy | dkl? | 10:24 |
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| jds2001 | rhbz maintainer :) | 10:24 |
| jds2001 | dave lawrence | 10:24 |
| wwoods | comphappy: Dave Lawrence, main RHBZ maintainer (and all-around awesome guy) | 10:24 |
| stickster | super-awesome | 10:25 |
| poelcat | okay so what types of things should we add to our "reporting wishlist" ? | 10:25 |
| poelcat | then we'll start talking about "doing stuff" mcepl :) | 10:25 |
| comphappy | he is going to have to be involved to some extent if we want to drag in the user stats as they are not assessable through the API as far as i can tel | 10:26 |
| stickster | To whom are we reporting these wishlist items? Triage group? | 10:26 |
| poelcat | stickster: wishlist of triage activity (or lack thereof) reports | 10:27 |
| jds2001 | that's another item - there is no such thing as the "triage" group | 10:27 |
| stickster | So fedora-test-list | 10:27 |
| poelcat | well we have http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers | 10:27 |
| jds2001 | there's f-t-l, but the scope of that is much wider | 10:27 |
| poelcat | jds2001: ever time i bring up a separate mailing list most people disagree :) | 10:28 |
| jds2001 | yeah i know :) | 10:28 |
| stickster | OK, I don't want to bring that up either right now :-) | 10:28 |
| poelcat | comphappy: so for starters... i think we need the "triager stats" | 10:29 |
| mcepl | poelcat: I don't | 10:29 |
| mcepl | (sorry, I don't disagree) | 10:29 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: why not? | 10:29 |
| comphappy | oh an that is going to require some access the the raw BZ database or a dump of the data | 10:29 |
| jds2001 | oh, OK :) | 10:29 |
| mcepl | I am not sure, whether it should be a place of all discussion, but it would be nice to have one email address as a contact point for all things bug-triage | 10:30 |
| poelcat | comphappy: do you think that python script i sent is workable or something better? | 10:30 |
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| comphappy | i looked at it a while ago, what I am doing goes off the xmlrpc so it is live data | 10:31 |
| poelcat | comphappy: i'll take an action to talk to the RHT bz guys about best way we can proceed | 10:31 |
| jds2001 | comphappy: i can setup a bz 2.18 instance for ya if you want | 10:31 |
| jds2001 | it would be upstream 2.18, which is what rhbz is based on (severely hacked up though) | 10:32 |
| comphappy | we are shifting to 3 in a week or so no? | 10:32 |
| stickster | Let's get back to the topic of metrics. What are we pulling and providing right now? And where is that list provided? | 10:32 |
| mcepl | comphappy: and actually, my experience with dkl is that if you need something (and you can explain why you need it), you can have some modification of bugzilla done (probably it helps to have @redhat.com in email address, but I can help) | 10:32 |
| poelcat | comphappy: i'm glad to help with that part | 10:32 |
| jds2001 | stickster: i have some queries, ran em once (was intending to every month) sent em to some folks and heard silence | 10:33 |
| comphappy | we still dont have a list of what we want this thing to do... | 10:33 |
| mcepl | stickster: I am afraid nowhere, and everybody is reinventing the whell all over again :-( | 10:33 |
| jds2001 | but i dunno that those reports are worthwhile | 10:33 |
| stickster | jds2001: Where could people find the queries you ran? (Not results, but the queries) | 10:33 |
| jds2001 | on my workstation :) | 10:34 |
| stickster | Here's what I'm getting at --let's get those somewhere public | 10:34 |
| stickster | That's step 1 | 10:34 |
| poelcat | what were people's thoughts on this https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2008-June/msg00033.html | 10:34 |
| poelcat | besides the fact that "metrics are dangerous" ;-) | 10:34 |
| poelcat | that was what I was putting forth | 10:34 |
| poelcat | show activity by person | 10:34 |
| stickster | Then 2. see about automating it | 10:34 |
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| mcepl | jds2001: are you aware of the existence of the list of all your saved queries (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=saved-searches)? | 10:36 |
| comphappy | part of my idea of running it as a tg app is that it would be live and we would all have one condensed set of tools | 10:36 |
| * stickster sure jds2001 is, even now, pulling those queries up and posting them somewhere :-) | 10:36 | |
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| * poelcat has another meeting at the top of th hour... should we come back to this next week? | 10:37 | |
| comphappy | I will open up a wiki page for this? | 10:37 |
| jds2001 | darn i forgot - the report URL's have my bugzilla username and password in em since that was the only way to make em work | 10:38 |
| jds2001 | i'll take that out and make em public (they'll work in a browser, just not the scripted way I was using em) | 10:38 |
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| stickster | jds2001: understood | 10:38 |
| poelcat | jds2001: we could set those up w/ a special ID that is RO | 10:38 |
| poelcat | to bugzilla | 10:39 |
| comphappy | on a side note, those greasemonkey tools are not on the tools list | 10:39 |
| stickster | poelcat: +1 on making the next action "post this stuff to wiki" and moving on | 10:39 |
| poelcat | okay mcepl has raise the important point a few times about "what are our goals"? | 10:40 |
| poelcat | let's talk about that before we run out of time | 10:40 |
| poelcat | what do we all want to be focusing on in terms of actual bug triage? | 10:41 |
| * poelcat proposes all rawhide bugs which are in NEW | 10:41 | |
| poelcat | keeping in mind this is our current focus culminating with GA of F10 | 10:41 |
| stickster | 0. Make it easier for developers to concentrate on current and compelling bugs in current releases of Fedora. 1. Bring entries in Bugzilla in line with reality of bugs in Fedora. 3. Produce helpful information about bug trends. | 10:43 |
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| stickster | That was more of a suggestion for goals, less about focus. | 10:43 |
| * stickster feels half-cocked here. | 10:44 | |
| mcepl | stickster: sorry, to oppose you, but that's exactly an example, what I don't think should be our goals. It should be something clear, and measurable. So, poelcat's all Rawhide NEW bugs are much close to what I think it the right answer. | 10:45 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: that's a focus, not goals :) | 10:45 |
| mcepl | your set is so general, that we cannot every see any tangible results from tyhat | 10:45 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: goals, but their nature, aren't really measurable | 10:45 |
| comphappy | fyi https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Metrics | 10:46 |
| mcepl | OK, I stand corrected. | 10:46 |
| jds2001 | s/but/by | 10:46 |
| jds2001 | a focus is very measurable :) | 10:46 |
| stickster | mcepl: I see your point, and I agree that my suggestion wasn't good for measurement. And I don't want to reinvent a wheel here. | 10:46 |
| stickster | For the more tangible objectives... | 10:46 |
| comphappy | perhaps a # goal for the amount of open bugs at shift from rawhide to F10 | 10:47 |
| stickster | What about something like "Move X% of all NEW Rawhide bugs to a more accurate status"? | 10:47 |
| poelcat | i propose all NEW rawhide bugs so we are in better shape when a lot of them become F10 and to be able to clearly see new rawhide bugs coming once alpha, beta, pr start | 10:48 |
| stickster | 100% is a clear objective :-) | 10:48 |
| stickster | poelcat: Do you feel it's also worthwhile to kick the tires of all NEEDINFO bugs at least once as well? | 10:49 |
| jds2001 | NEEDINFO older than 30 days, yeah | 10:49 |
| jds2001 | we actually have a policy that those can be closed - but I exercise discretion in that area. | 10:49 |
| mcepl | stickster: actually, this is my question -- I tend to struggle between two rules -- either "don't leave bug until it is in the state you want it to be" and "just go through simple bugs first, to have time for the more complicated ones" (http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200008/200008.htm) | 10:50 |
| stickster | Well, if there is a clear policy, you don't want to spin wheels revisiting a lot of bugs | 10:50 |
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| poelcat | jds2001: i say leave NEEDINFO for now and just focus on NEW | 10:51 |
| comphappy | this all goes back to what Metrics will show us | 10:51 |
| poelcat | really knock those down... right now we're sitting fairly consistently at 1400 | 10:51 |
| poelcat | if 14 people triaged 100 bugs ... all gone | 10:51 |
| stickster | And I think there should be an additional objective, regarding better startup documentation. | 10:51 |
| poelcat | well sort of :) | 10:51 |
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| comphappy | yes | 10:52 |
| comphappy | stickster: I was planing on trying to clean some of the wiki up for that | 10:52 |
| poelcat | i've found that a lot of them are pretty easy even w/o knowing the component (which is most of the time for me :) | 10:52 |
| stickster | comphappy: What do you need to get started? | 10:52 |
| comphappy | the issue is some of our policies are not even documented there, you have to go to fedora-qa and ask and wait | 10:53 |
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| poelcat | comphappy: that is bad | 10:53 |
| stickster | comphappy: Because I would call this objective more important than a TG app rightnow | 10:53 |
| stickster | And any time those answers are found, they ought to be posted in a clear policy area. | 10:53 |
| comphappy | Well i will make it a goal that by next week to have some of it sorted out | 10:54 |
| comphappy | then feedback? | 10:54 |
| stickster | comphappy: That is AWESOME. | 10:54 |
| comphappy | looks like we have about 5min left any trailing ends? | 10:55 |
| * stickster shuts the heck up. | 10:55 | |
| stickster | OK, I lied. | 10:55 |
| comphappy | a log of this will be posted correct? | 10:55 |
| jds2001 | yep | 10:56 |
| jds2001 | you want me to take care of that poelcat? | 10:56 |
| poelcat | mcepl: are you cool with "the goal"? | 10:56 |
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| poelcat | jds2001: please | 10:56 |
| mcepl | yes | 10:56 |
| comphappy | any other goals to have done by next week | 10:56 |
| poelcat | note that irc2html.py does mediawiki now | 10:56 |
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| stickster | I think that as we go forward, we have to be constantly thinking, "How do I make it as easy as possible for Joe Poweruser to understand (1) where we need help, (2) how to help, and (3) what results or information he needs to pass on for others to do the same. | 10:57 |
| poelcat | i say we shoot for rawhide bugs: NEW == 1200 next week | 10:57 |
| jds2001 | oh, I was just gonna post the raw text :) irclog2html would be better | 10:57 |
| stickster | Awesome | 10:57 |
| comphappy | I will create a Goal page as well in my cleanup | 10:57 |
| * jds2001 gets busy :) | 10:57 | |
| * poelcat commits to sending meeting agenda for next week's meeting by Friday | 10:57 | |
| comphappy | I may not be able to make it next week, but I will pass on any q and work i have done to poelcat | 10:58 |
| * stickster will commit to helping several hours this week with some triage, after work hours | 10:58 | |
| poelcat | comphappy: excellent! | 10:58 |
| poelcat | stickster: if there is a special time you want to do it | 10:59 |
| jds2001 | stickster: excellent, I'm mostly around after work hours if you need help :) | 10:59 |
| poelcat | we could all try to gather at a certain time/day | 10:59 |
| * poelcat has to run | 10:59 | |
| poelcat | thanks everyone! | 10:59 |
| stickster | Thanks poelcat | 10:59 |
| stickster | Thanks everybody | 10:59 |
| * stickster hopes he didn't cause meeting suck. | 10:59 | |
| comphappy | this was more productive then the meeting i am off to is going to be | 10:59 |
| jds2001 | nope, you caused meeting productive :) | 10:59 |
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