From Fedora Project Wiki
| +stickster | We are agenda-free today, 100% Q & A. | 11:00 |
|---|---|---|
| +stickster | We may be awaiting one or two other Board members | 11:00 |
| +quaid | ok, shall we ... wait a minute? | 11:00 |
| +quaid | heh, there we go | 11:00 |
| +f13 | Q: Does Fedora like burning trees, or saving kittens? | 11:00 |
| +quaid | A: Yes | 11:01 |
| +f13 | A: Burn them both! | 11:01 |
| +stickster | I think we're still awaiting spot and h\h | 11:01 |
| +stickster | I pinged them both | 11:01 |
| * mdomsch hears the cries of PETA | 11:01 | |
| -!- h\h [n=harald@p578FFB1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-board-meeting | 11:01 | |
| -!- mode/#fedora-board-meeting [+v h\h] by ChanServ | 11:01 | |
| +caillon | and dmitris | 11:02 |
| +quaid | stickster: you have the back channel pingwtfru? | 11:02 |
| +stickster | quaidYes | 11:02 |
| -!- darthmarth37|Wk [n=darthmar@xt15.math.umn.edu] has joined #fedora-board-meeting | 11:02 | |
| +stickster | Let's get started at 1905 UTC. | 11:03 |
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| * quaid sets his stopwatch | 11:04 | |
| +glezos | hiya all | 11:04 |
| +stickster | Hi Dimitris! | 11:04 |
| +stickster | OK, let's get started | 11:05 |
| +stickster | quaid: Whenever you're ready. | 11:05 |
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| +quaid | ok! | 11:05 |
| +quaid | good day everyone, I'm your friendly moderator | 11:05 |
| +quaid | I'll grab questions from the #-public- channel and paste them here | 11:06 |
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| +quaid | in rought order. | 11:06 |
| +quaid | since we have some queued, shall we roll? or stickster do you want to say anything? | 11:06 |
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| * quaid reaches to grab the mic back from stickster | 11:06 | |
| +stickster | We're ready to proceed with Q & A -- we kept the agenda clear so we'd have plenty of time for them. | 11:06 |
| +stickster | quaid: Shoot. | 11:06 |
| +stickster | And hi to all Board members :-) | 11:07 |
| +quaid | ok, the first question led to the second, so I'll post them both: | 11:07 |
| +quaid | viking_ice> How to compete with google and becoming world dominators | 11:07 |
| +quaid | ke4qqq raises the question "What is Fedora's purpose?' and hands it to | 11:07 |
| +quaid | </> | 11:07 |
| -!- MostafaDaneshvar [n=MostafaD@unaffiliated/mostafadaneshvar] has joined #fedora-board-meeting | 11:07 | |
| +quaid | i.e., the second question goes to the first. | 11:07 |
| +f13 | First, world domination shouldn't be the goal of Fedora | 11:08 |
| +notting | compete with google? in what context? (we're obviously not writing a search engine, nor are we planning on deploying massive amounts of worldwide infrastructure anytime soon) | 11:08 |
| +stickster | We're not trying to index all the world's information, which is Google's raison d'etre IIRC. | 11:08 |
| +f13 | this is a question the board struggled with last meeting | 11:08 |
| +f13 | what we have agreed upon is that one goal of Fedora should be furthering the adoption of free and opensource software in the world. | 11:09 |
| +f13 | but thats nice and hand wavy | 11:09 |
| +glezos | Fedora's goal is to foster a healthy community of contributors with the goal of producing a complete and solid open source operating system. I don't think this comes in competition with Google. | 11:09 |
| +quaid | notting, stickster -- it was a joke that pointed to the fact that people don't know the answer to what Fedora's purpose is | 11:09 |
| +notting | quaid: well, in that case... "working on it" | 11:10 |
| +stickster | The answer is slightly different if we're talking about the Fedora Project as opposed to Fedora the Linux distribution. | 11:10 |
| +mdomsch | a) community; b) distribution... | 11:10 |
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| +mdomsch | the community goal is to provide a welcoming and vibrant workspace in which to develop open source software that people find useful (yeah, handwavy...) | 11:11 |
| +stickster | "Purpose," "Goal," "Mission" are necessarily hand-wavy. | 11:12 |
| +mdomsch | from that we are able to produce a distribution which people find useful in a variety of ways | 11:12 |
| +mdomsch | and if we don't provide one they find useful, we certainly provide the tools to let them make one themselves which they find useful | 11:12 |
| +stickster | I think what people want to know when they ask the question "What is Fedora," is more often, "How do we know what Fedora is not, so we don't end up spreading resources too thinly?" | 11:13 |
| +mdomsch | fedora is not a brewery, though you may find it's members at one on occasion | 11:13 |
| +stickster | I believe the purpose of the project is to pioneer the methods by which a community works together to advance FOSS. One of the ways we demonstrate those methods is through production of Fedora the distribution. I believe the purpose of the distribution should be to serve in a balanced way as a platform or development by its contributor constituents. | 11:14 |
| +notting | well, the idea is to have a healthy and vibrant community, such that that community is capable of working on the various long tail uses, packages, etc. if they are interested | 11:14 |
| +stickster | s/or devel/for devel/ | 11:14 |
| +h\h | notting, well said | 11:15 |
| * f13 notes that we could probably wind up spending the entire hour talking about this | 11:15 | |
| +notting | the question is then to define what constitutes the long tail and what doesn't. for example, we've stated that secondary arches such as ia64 or s390 are part of that long tail, and not necessarily part of the core fedora mission | 11:15 |
| +mdomsch | I like the "4 Fs" that the marketing team have been promoting | 11:15 |
| +stickster | Yes, let's try and limit this question to stop about 1925 so we don't disregard others | 11:15 |
| * skvidal notes we have wasted other hours on it | 11:15 | |
| +caillon | stickster, hopefully "quality" is part of that definition of purpose. | 11:15 |
| +mdomsch | are we often asked to provide something, a service or a product, to which there simply aren't resources available? | 11:16 |
| +stickster | caillon: I think that should be part of our objectives, yes. | 11:16 |
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| +quaid | I can put a time limit on the question, if you wish | 11:16 |
| +quaid | s/question/answer/ really | 11:16 |
| +mdomsch | (unless one considers exhaustive QA and/or the package review backlog that lack of resources) | 11:16 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: There's the constantly recurring question of a long-term support branch of Fedora. | 11:16 |
| +skvidal | quaid: good call | 11:16 |
| +mdomsch | or long-term support | 11:16 |
| +mdomsch | stickster, yeah... | 11:17 |
| +quaid | stickster: ok, I got the watch | 11:17 |
| +skvidal | stickster: I like to call that the 'magical pony' branch | 11:17 |
| +f13 | mdomsch: the question can come up when we're discussing the FEL question this week, about whether or not to ship the content that chitlesh wants to ship | 11:17 |
| +mdomsch | skvidal isn't content with a pony in his choice of color and size, he wants it to be magical too? :-) | 11:17 |
| +mdomsch | f13, pointer to discussion? | 11:18 |
| +skvidal | mdomsch: well - considering a pony is POSSIBLE given the constraints of the universe | 11:18 |
| +skvidal | mdomsch: a magical pony is not | 11:18 |
| +skvidal | mdomsch: hence this is the magical pony branch | 11:18 |
| +skvidal | b/c it is NOT possible | 11:18 |
| +ctyler | I'm increasingly viewing Fedora (the product) as a constellation of open source packages, "the best of open source that works today" as skvidal said at FUDCon F8, which are useful to people in many different combinations: desktop, server, both, netbook, multiseat, whatever. | 11:18 |
| +f13 | mdomsch: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg02364.html | 11:18 |
| +mdomsch | I am perfectly fine w/ Fedora not having a long-term support strategy, FWIW | 11:19 |
| * skvidal doesn't recall saying something so optimistic as that | 11:19 | |
| +f13 | skvidal: shocking | 11:19 |
| * ctyler points skvidal to the FUDCon video | 11:19 | |
| +skvidal | I must have followed it up with "we're all going to die soon, anyway" | 11:19 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: As am I. I find it's a distraction from forward momentum, especially when in the community space that void is filled by CentOS, or RHEL if you want paid support. | 11:19 |
| +h\h | right | 11:20 |
| * ctyler nods | 11:20 | |
| +stickster | skvidal: Always Mary Sunshine. | 11:20 |
| +quaid | the "best of open source that works today" is something Max has repeated; it came from Tiemann originaly iirc | 11:21 |
| +skvidal | stickster: I have a middle name, too - but I won't use it in a public forum :) | 11:21 |
| +stickster | skvidal: ;-) | 11:21 |
| +f13 | MRFS | 11:21 |
| +ctyler | mmcgrath points out that there are many kinds of (possibly conflicting) 'best' | 11:21 |
| +f13 | or MRoFS. That's it, skvidal is forever hence known as mrofs. | 11:21 |
| +f13 | mmcgrath has a good point | 11:22 |
| +stickster | The point of having the entire project under a free license allows people to do outside the project with equivalent tools that which we may not be able to accommodate in-house. | 11:22 |
| +quaid | <mmcgrath> ctyler: Its tricky to say "best" because its subjective. Saying "newest" or "most stable" is more objective. | 11:22 |
| +stickster | So we can serve as an effective booster for even objectives in which we don't have a direct interest. | 11:22 |
| +f13 | when we envoke the term best, we have to also determine who gets to decide what 'best' is. | 11:22 |
| +caillon | well, best is ambiguous because we don't have a project goal. defining that goal is a first step to defining best. | 11:23 |
| * quaid mumbles about the Royal We | 11:23 | |
| +ctyler | When Fedora is a package constellation, there can be more than one 'best' present. | 11:23 |
| * stickster notes < 2 min warning. | 11:23 | |
| +skvidal | ctyler: up to a limit | 11:24 |
| +skvidal | ctyler: at some point 'bests' conflict | 11:24 |
| * caillon runs out of bounds to stop the clock | 11:24 | |
| * glezos notes that although the lack of a definition/mantra won't kill a project, the existence of one will definitely help guide the project and its people to the right direction at difficult times. | 11:24 | |
| +notting | right. it could be useful in light of the architecture discussions, or desktop vs. server, or... | 11:25 |
| +glezos | I think it's by definition difficult to come up with an answer to this, but that doesn't mean we should give up trying to find the essence of what we are doing and represent. | 11:25 |
| +ctyler | skvidal: right, but as long as there's energy to maintian both, spin X can utilize 'best X' and spin Y can use 'best Y' | 11:25 |
| * quaid notes time is up, do we want to suspend here ... | 11:25 | |
| +stickster | glezos: Yes, no one doubts the importance of the question. | 11:25 |
| +notting | quaid ^Z | 11:25 |
| +stickster | It's hard to answer and the Board is set to take up the discussion again next week. | 11:25 |
| +caillon | quaid, it's probably fairest to the masses if we suspend, yes. | 11:25 |
| +quaid | ok then | 11:25 |
| * mdomsch recalls Admiral Stockdale. | 11:26 | |
| +quaid | back to f-a-b with that discussion ... | 11:26 |
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| +quaid | nirik> I'll bring up the question I always do: "What is the news on | 11:26 |
| +quaid | the 'incident' last year, and when can we hear more? I was hoping | 11:26 |
| +quaid | there was going to be some news, but I haven't seen anything" | 11:26 |
| +quaid | </q> | 11:26 |
| +skvidal | nirik: out of curiosity | 11:26 |
| +glezos | The Board hasn't received any updates on this issue. | 11:27 |
| +skvidal | if you could pick any answer you could get | 11:27 |
| +skvidal | what would be a home-run answer? | 11:27 |
| +stickster | There is nothing new to report at this moment, but I want to say that desepite naysaying to the contrary, no one has forgotten the fact that we owe the community a final disclosure report, nor trying to sweep that under the rug. | 11:27 |
| +notting | skvidal: the offender has been found. his head is on a pike <here> | 11:27 |
| +caillon | stickster, or at the least, you owe us some of those blue mind erasing sticks so we stop asking. ;-) | 11:27 |
| +notting | that would be my wishcasting answer ;) | 11:27 |
| +stickster | caillon: I like the asking, it keeps people honest. | 11:28 |
| +skvidal | quaid: can you paste his response in here? | 11:28 |
| * quaid <nirik> skvidal: it would be: "we plan to release details in a press conference at 2009-xx-xx and will take questions then" | 11:28 | |
| +f13 | I'm sure skvidal could whip up some milk-of-amnesia | 11:28 |
| +skvidal | nirik: can you be any more specific about the details you'd like that have not already been released? | 11:29 |
| +skvidal | what, to you, is lacking in the currently released information | 11:29 |
| +skvidal | I know what I want from it | 11:29 |
| +skvidal | but I want to make sure I'm not an odd case | 11:29 |
| +skvidal | (no one make any jokes about that last comment) | 11:30 |
| +skvidal | :) | 11:30 |
| +glezos | Once we have more information, I'd like to see the Board produce a full disclosure report and a plan of action for a similar event in the future. | 11:31 |
| +quaid | nirik> skvidal: I think I would like to hear "it was a failure of: people or packages or process" and I would love to hear that the people or packages or process were fixed both for fedora and anyone using the fedora distro. | 11:31 |
| +glezos | If under the same circumstances the same approach will take place, we should discuss if we can change something so that we can act differently in the future. | 11:31 |
| +skvidal | nirik: okay, thanks. | 11:31 |
| +notting | the people were fixed? ouch. that can hurt. | 11:31 |
| +f13 | notting: hey, you brought up heads on pikes. | 11:31 |
| * quaid buzzes five minute timer on this answer | 11:31 | |
| * skvidal is done | 11:32 | |
| +mdomsch | mmcgrath has been working on a plan for "if something similar happens again" (crosses fingers it won't) | 11:32 |
| * caillon first read that as if the plan was to cross fingers... | 11:32 | |
| +quaid | ok, next question ... | 11:33 |
| +glezos | mdomsch: good to know, thanks | 11:33 |
| +quaid | JKnife> quaid_moderator: Ok, serious question, Is RedHat ever going to | 11:33 |
| +quaid | do main stream ads for Fedora(like on TV or Radio)? | 11:33 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: Yes, mmcgrath and I met at FUDCon and talked about that as a matter of fact. | 11:33 |
| +stickster | JKnife: I don't believe so. Mainstream ads on TV and radio are extremely expensive and don't necessarily attract an audience of contributors for Fedora. | 11:33 |
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| +f13 | To what end? What would be the end result benefit for Red Hat or the Fedora project? | 11:34 |
| +mdomsch | a) ever is a long time; b) I haven't seen a Red Hat commercial ad for their own products | 11:34 |
| +h\h | in which country? :) | 11:34 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: good poing on (B). | 11:34 |
| +stickster | *point, even. | 11:34 |
| +caillon | mdomsch, closest we've had is a full page in NYT, iirc. | 11:34 |
| +skvidal | and what would the ad be like | 11:34 |
| +notting | i think we'd have to define the purpose and audience of Fedora before we have ads | 11:34 |
| +stickster | Our Ambassador crew is our main grassroots effort to spread Fedora to the masses and they do a spectacular job. | 11:34 |
| +skvidal | "Heard of linux? No? Then this is going to be confusing!" | 11:34 |
| +stickster | notting: heh. | 11:35 |
| +mdomsch | "we're in your pocket, owning your iPhone..." | 11:35 |
| +notting | i mean, we could hire Alec Baldwin to tell people that Fedora's an evil plot to destroy the world, but it's probably not practical | 11:35 |
| +mdomsch | or we could hire BillG and Seinfeld | 11:36 |
| +f13 | would be fun though | 11:36 |
| +glezos | Thinking about the full-page Firefox newspaper ad, I'd like stress out here the power of the community itself. | 11:36 |
| +stickster | But I'd like to see him re-enact the Glengarry Glen Ross scene, only with Fedora before the steak knives. | 11:36 |
| * glezos would *love* to see something like spreadfedora.com :) | 11:36 | |
| +f13 | It might be useful to take out adds for Fedora events in local media outlets around the event | 11:36 |
| +notting | stickster: that should be your next state-of-fedora speech at fudcon | 11:36 |
| +mdomsch | mozilla got quite a lot of (free) attention by announcing they were going to try setting a world record for downloads | 11:36 |
| +stickster | notting: Don't tempt me. | 11:37 |
| +f13 | either events purely Fedora, or bigger events that Fedora happens to be participating in. | 11:37 |
| +mdomsch | f13, Fedora ran an ad several days in the MIT student paper before FUDCon | 11:37 |
| +stickster | Mozilla also has a broader-based product appeal. Remember that it runs on Windows. | 11:37 |
| +f13 | mdomsch: yeah, stuff like that. | 11:37 |
| +f13 | stickster: well, we run in PCs, Macs, etc... (: | 11:38 |
| +stickster | You know what I meant. | 11:38 |
| +stickster | :-) | 11:38 |
| +caillon | and a very high percentage of their userbase overlaps with windows users | 11:38 |
| +f13 | yes | 11:38 |
| +f13 | and overlaps with TV watchers | 11:38 |
| +h\h | marketing by writing nice blogs and howtos how to get s.th. done with free software and fedora helps more than any tv or radio add, I think | 11:39 |
| +f13 | whereas I bet we have a high percentage of our target audience skipping commercials due to PVR devices | 11:39 |
| +stickster | h\h: That's way more effective with the kind of audience that we want to encourage to actually *get involved* in Fedora. | 11:39 |
| +mdomsch | we need a Fedora logo on the side of Starbuck's shiny viper | 11:39 |
| +f13 | To sum up, I doubt we'll see Red Hat advertise on TV for Fedora any time soon, however we would like to see better advertisement targets used. | 11:40 |
| +stickster | This is something that bears mention again -- that given a limited resource budget (not just money, but also people, time, energy, etc.), we concentrate on bringing in contributors to Fedora, not consumers. | 11:40 |
| * quaid notes that by focusing on contributors, we leverage 1:1,000,000 where focusing on consumers leverages a dismal 10:1 ... in terms of affecting community growth. | 11:40 | |
| +mdomsch | product placement is where it's at | 11:40 |
| +stickster | Heh, I think we all just summarized the same way. Kismet! | 11:40 |
| +quaid | mdomsch: if only the animation studios would put Fedora t-shirts on characters | 11:40 |
| +quaid | stickster: and on that ... next q? | 11:40 |
| +stickster | quaid: You're moderating, pipe down :-) | 11:40 |
| * quaid is trying! | 11:41 | |
| +stickster | +1 | 11:41 |
| * ctyler wonders if a stunt similar to the WSJ firefox think might have value, though | 11:41 | |
| +f13 | quaid: they use our software, surely we can insert a watermark somewhere (: | 11:41 |
| +notting | mdomsch: so, we're competing with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzebPb60ffQ ? | 11:41 |
| +quaid | <EvilBob> I have a question, I recently heard about the Red Hat Summit | 11:41 |
| +quaid | in Chicago. It is my understanding that there will not be a FUDcon | 11:41 |
| +quaid | tied to this event that is in the middle of the coasts allowing | 11:41 |
| +quaid | contributors from the plains and midwest more of a chance to get to a | 11:41 |
| +quaid | FUDcon. Why was this decision made. | 11:41 |
| +quaid | <EvilBob> quaid_moderator: add to my FUDcon query, WHat funding is | 11:41 |
| +quaid | available if the community got something arranged in the area. | 11:41 |
| * quaid notes the answer to the second was discussed wrt NA Ambassadors | 11:41 | |
| +quaid | </q> | 11:41 |
| +f13 | THe board talked about this | 11:41 |
| +f13 | We felt that the FUDCon attached to the RH Summit in BOS was a poor example of FUDCon compared to when we weren't attached to any event | 11:42 |
| +stickster | It actually has nothing to do with geography and everything to do with the success (or lack thereof)) at the last Summit-colocated FUDCon. | 11:42 |
| +f13 | and instead we'd like to perhaps see a Fedora Activity Day happen there, as opposed to a general FUDCon | 11:42 |
| +mdomsch | s/colocated/concurrent/ | 11:42 |
| +stickster | f13: +2. | 11:42 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: That too! | 11:42 |
| +stickster | Having a whole FUDCon at the Summit is distracting, expensive, and a logistical nightmare. | 11:43 |
| +glezos | I think history has shown that our most successful FUDCons were ones that were not hosted together with another event. | 11:43 |
| +stickster | I would note that mmcgrath is trying to get a FAD together in Chicago to work on infrastructure, but the event could be expanded through collaboration with him and whoever else is currently planning such an event. | 11:44 |
| +stickster | glezos: Exactly | 11:44 |
| +f13 | It also calls into question what it is we want to aaccomplish with FUDCons | 11:44 |
| +caillon | how many have we had with another event? i think there's a fairly small sample size here... | 11:44 |
| +stickster | By "expanded" I mean, could include one or two other targeted areas ((as opposed to morphing into a FUDCon, which would defeat the point). | 11:44 |
| +f13 | having a large number of developers in the same area/time has generated some good results. | 11:44 |
| +f13 | the same can be said for a large number of non-"developer" type folks | 11:44 |
| +stickster | caillon: It also happened with the FUDCon EMEA @LinuxTag 2008. | 11:45 |
| +f13 | and those two things don't have to happen at the same time/place | 11:45 |
| +stickster | The pattern was hard to ignore at that point. | 11:45 |
| +mdomsch | I like the idea of using FUDCon as a planning tool for upcoming releases | 11:45 |
| +mdomsch | which we haven't really done explicitly | 11:45 |
| +stickster | I think FADs give us an opportunity to do higher-touch, more user-centric events too. | 11:45 |
| +f13 | I do too, as well as a twice annual brain dump | 11:45 |
| +glezos | Seeing the success of FUDCon Brno, our aim right now is to try and distribute FUDCons around the world, expanding their impact to a much larger community than before. | 11:45 |
| +stickster | glezos: s/FUDCons/Fedora events/ | 11:45 |
| +glezos | stickster: right. | 11:45 |
| +f13 | there are two challenges. | 11:46 |
| +f13 | 1) getting Red Hat people sent around that work on Fedora. 2) getting non-Red Hat people sent around that work on Fedora | 11:46 |
| +glezos | stickster: FADs might also address much lower-touch, highly developer-centric events, like hackfests, coding sprints, etc. | 11:46 |
| +f13 | 1 gets easy by doing things on the East Coast of the US. Huge number of people already there, relatively smaller numbers to fly in | 11:46 |
| +f13 | doesn't help with 2 at all | 11:46 |
| +stickster | glezos: Absolutely, they can do either -- or both, with two rooms. | 11:46 |
| +f13 | to help with 2, we need to find more activities we can do in other places, that don't necessarily require/benefit from having a high number of Red Hat Fedora contributors. | 11:47 |
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| +stickster | f13: Right, that's where FADs come in. | 11:47 |
| +f13 | yep, trying to set the table for those | 11:47 |
| +ctyler | More events will be fantastic. Getting as many people as possible in one place is great, too. I hope we can do both. | 11:47 |
| * quaid notes we have several questions in the queue still | 11:48 | |
| +f13 | like anything, we have to be responsible about how we spend our resources. | 11:48 |
| +skvidal | I think this horse is dead | 11:48 |
| +f13 | not just the $$ in Fedora's coffers, but also the resources of our contributors | 11:48 |
| +stickster | The idea is that FADs can be set up by community members and a smaller funding amount goes much further with it being more of a local/regional event.j | 11:48 |
| * mdomsch notes his blog post yesterday too. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=30 FUDCons aren't the only places to discuss Fedora projects. | 11:48 | |
| +stickster | Maybe we should move on further in the q-queue. | 11:48 |
| +f13 | stickster: +1 | 11:48 |
| * glezos will also bring the example of online development sprints, which were very successful in the Django project. A few people get together in various locations in the world and the others from home hacking together on IRC. This is something that should probably be discussed on -advisory-board though and will need someone to prove it works by actually trying it. | 11:49 | |
| +quaid | * viking_ice raises hands and asks a serious question: Why don't we replace the offical GA release with an updated one from Fedora Unity and archive the GA release when they have released an updated GA release ? | 11:49 |
| * glezos eof | 11:49 | |
| +quaid | eoq | 11:49 |
| +skvidal | b/c it would mean 1. reving the world 2. mirrors would hate us. 3. recertifying for export, I believe | 11:50 |
| +skvidal | it's a lot of work for questionably much benefit, imo | 11:50 |
| +caillon | also, why would i download the "final release" if it's buggy and going to have a bugfix update in a few weeks? | 11:50 |
| +ctyler | minimal win since the release cycle is so short | 11:51 |
| +f13 | "nobody runs a .0 release" | 11:51 |
| +h\h | there is no dot in fedora :) | 11:51 |
| +f13 | I have a hard time believing that we'll continue to have enough bandwidth to concentrate on the next fedora, if we try to add even more releases into our plate. | 11:51 |
| +mdomsch | Unity provides a useful bit of work, and I'm glad they do. Keep it up. I see that as additive, but it need not replace what is hosted on the mirrors. | 11:52 |
| +skvidal | and he means both network and mental bandwidth | 11:52 |
| +f13 | its not like we're doing such a great job in the first place. | 11:52 |
| +quaid | * viking_ice answers skvidal: Just alone the whole i586 should be enough for justifying the their being or an updated GA existance | 11:52 |
| +stickster | I understand that the Ambassadors already hand out Unity respins at shows, which I think is a fine thing. | 11:52 |
| +skvidal | what i586 incident? | 11:52 |
| +quaid | s/i586/i586 incident/ | 11:52 |
| +f13 | I'd rather see us work to improve the process for the official release so that we won't have as great a calling for respins. | 11:52 |
| +skvidal | sigh - what other bugs should we respin for? | 11:53 |
| +stickster | Delta rpms might help? | 11:53 |
| +skvidal | stickster: somewhat - it'll diminish the size of things | 11:53 |
| +stickster | Yeah, that's all I was saying. :-) | 11:53 |
| +mdomsch | but not the number of updates being pushed... | 11:53 |
| +skvidal | and the way we have in mind delta from original -> NOW should be nice | 11:53 |
| +f13 | it'll diminish the size of things users download, not mirrors | 11:53 |
| +f13 | it'll /increase/ the size of our mirror footprint and bandwidth costs | 11:53 |
| * stickster wants us not to wander too far into the weeds here. | 11:53 | |
| +skvidal | but they're so pretty | 11:54 |
| +quaid | herlo> stickster: (in f-board), we did hand out Unity discs, but I'd like them to become more official and thus want to press them if it can be blessed by the board. | 11:54 |
| +quaid | ok | 11:54 |
| +skvidal | look at this one with the shiny leaves of three | 11:54 |
| +skvidal | let me lick it | 11:54 |
| +mdomsch | I care somewhat less about mirror space and bandwidth (we seem to manage), but in people concentration bandwidth | 11:54 |
| +quaid | next q? | 11:54 |
| +mdomsch | both consumers (hmm, which one should I download), and developers/testers. | 11:54 |
| +quaid | <inode0> quaid_moderator: is cowsay code or content? ... the question really is how can I look at a package and classify it as code or content | 11:55 |
| +stickster | herlo: That's a distinct possibility. | 11:55 |
| +stickster | That sounds like more of a FESCo question to me. | 11:55 |
| +stickster | Sorry, I meant: | 11:55 |
| +f13 | well, taking the question literally, you 'run' cowsay to produce something | 11:55 |
| +stickster | inode0: That sounds like more of a FESCo question to me. | 11:55 |
| +f13 | you don't read cowsay contents in another application | 11:55 |
| +f13 | but the actual question, do you find our current wiki page not suitable to help you make that decision? If so, that really sounds like a FESCo/Packaging SIG issue | 11:56 |
| +stickster | quaid: Next q, I'd say. | 11:57 |
| +h\h | /exec cowsay Moo! | 11:57 |
| * stickster thinks of his favorite knock-knock joke. | 11:57 | |
| +h\h | f13: you would read cowsay contents in xchat :) | 11:57 |
| +f13 | *cough* | 11:58 |
| +stickster | quaid: Next q please? | 11:58 |
| +quaid | ok | 11:58 |
| +quaid | * viking_ice raises hands and asks another one ( not sure if that's a micro one as well ) Now with the ability to create a "live" cd should'nt Fedora stop officially site with a specific DE ( Now it's Gnome ) and allow all DE to compete on a fair ground and all reference to "Desktop" would strictly be a generic one ( containing a just a list of all the DE's that Fedora offers ) ? | 11:58 |
| -!- lmacken [n=lmacken@nat/redhat/x-b6d73737f76f7dac] has left #fedora-board-meeting [] | 11:58 | |
| +h\h | "compete" .. is there a winner? | 11:59 |
| +f13 | I think that's a bit of a misnomer. We don't actually produce anything called a Fedora Desktop | 11:59 |
| +f13 | We have a Fedora Live image, which is loosely tied to the Fedora installer sets | 11:59 |
| -!- nemo [n=nemo@athedsl-4502931.home.otenet.gr] has joined #fedora-board-meeting | 11:59 | |
| +mdomsch | they don't all fit on a single CD... | 11:59 |
| +notting | 'now with the ability to create a "live" cd'? this isn't a new thing, we've been this way for many releases | 11:59 |
| +f13 | We have specific spins geared toward specific desktop environments, such as the KDE, XFCE, LX?? spins | 12:00 |
| +glezos | I think we should have a Live CD which has passed through our QA process and everything. At the same time, we should encourage and support community SIGs to produce Live CDs of their own and even urge them to make them first-class ISOs as well (shipped on release date, etc) | 12:00 |
| +ctyler | f13: the Gnome live disc is called "Fedora 10 Desktop Edition" on fedoraproject.org | 12:00 |
| +notting | ctyler: and also says that's it's GNOME right there in the description | 12:00 |
| +f13 | However, our Fedora spin takes elements from not just gnome, but non DE specific things too | 12:00 |
| +f13 | hrm. | 12:00 |
| +f13 | I guess some marketing things have changed since we first decided to make the live images. | 12:00 |
| +caillon | well the SIG name hasn't changed... | 12:00 |
| +caillon | and AIUI, it's produced by the desktop SIG | 12:01 |
| * stickster notes there's a Desktop SIG and | 12:01 | |
| +stickster | nm, caillon is there already. | 12:01 |
| +ctyler | current names on website are "Fedora 10 Desktop Edition" and "Fedora 10 KDE Desktop Edition" | 12:01 |
| +f13 | The current state that things are in, the fact is that advancements tend to happen in our Gnome desktop world first, and that's what the Fedora project puts out there as our "best foot forward" for lack of abetter term. | 12:01 |
| +f13 | NetworkManager and PackageKit being two recent examples of this | 12:02 |
| +caillon | (did we ever get knetworkmanager?) | 12:02 |
| +notting | caillon: we did, and it's being replaced with a plasmoid in kde4.2, iirc | 12:02 |
| +stickster | caillon: /me was just talking with a contributor about kpackagekit earlier. | 12:02 |
| +caillon | nod | 12:03 |
| * caillon has had a few of those talks lately too | 12:03 | |
| +stickster | I think it suffices to say that Fedora will always have a place for DE SIGs to feature their work as official spins | 12:03 |
| +stickster | Subject to all the normal stuff to which Spins are subject. | 12:03 |
| +f13 | THere is even room for a GNOME spin, which specifically uses things from teh gnoem project instead of more generic things | 12:04 |
| +stickster | Right. | 12:04 |
| +f13 | like a different browser, maybe a different IM toolset, etc... | 12:04 |
| +stickster | skvidal: Please give your opinion on the horse, doctor. | 12:04 |
| +notting | the epiphany spin? seems like overkill, but I suppose if someone's that motivated... | 12:04 |
| +skvidal | stickster: DEAD | 12:04 |
| +mdomsch | e12 | 12:04 |
| +caillon | notting, is that the epiphany webkit or the epiphany gecko spin? | 12:05 |
| +skvidal | stickster: stiff | 12:05 |
| +skvidal | stickster: rotting, actively | 12:05 |
| +notting | mdomsch: surely that's the e17 spin | 12:05 |
| +f13 | notting: is it really any more overkill than the BrOffice spin? | 12:05 |
| +skvidal | stickster: oh, look, maggots | 12:05 |
| * quaid ready with the next question | 12:05 | |
| +quaid | <poelcat> quaid_moderator: Q: What key strategic initiatives is the | 12:05 |
| +quaid | board pursuing for 2009? | 12:05 |
| +notting | f13: ugh | 12:05 |
| +quaid | sorry, pasted early, but go ahead if you wish | 12:05 |
| +stickster | QA. | 12:05 |
| +f13 | hey look, poelcat just gave me BS Bingo! I WIN! | 12:05 |
| +f13 | Yes, QA | 12:06 |
| +f13 | I've taken on QA as my special interest as a board member. | 12:06 |
| +notting | 1) defining the fedora target as stated earlier in the meeting. we hope to have this done by the end of 2009 | 12:06 |
| +h\h | leverage the shareholders income, I guess.. | 12:06 |
| +stickster | notting: cheeky monkey. | 12:06 |
| +f13 | What that means is that I keep an eye on whats happening there, reporting to the board, and well stepping in to get my hands dirty where I can | 12:06 |
| +f13 | and helping to drive board attention and resources to further the QA effort | 12:06 |
| * mdomsch wants to redefine the Fedora Project as a bank, so we can receive TARP funds to spend on TV advertising | 12:06 | |
| +stickster | We look at Red Hat's hiring of Adam Williamson to be a key investment in Fedora QA for coming releases | 12:07 |
| +f13 | also we have a couple important distribution releases to get done in 2009 | 12:07 |
| * mdomsch is excited by the Fedora Cloud work that mmcgrath talked about at FUDCon | 12:07 | |
| +notting | f13: the next release is the most important release in the history of Fedora! | 12:08 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: I think the question was specifically about the Board's initiatives | 12:08 |
| +h\h | notting, for f13 it's F13 :) | 12:08 |
| +stickster | Keeping in mind that we don't have dedicated budget or people, but only (hopefully) the energy to help promote things we believe will provide good long-term results for the Fedora Project. | 12:08 |
| +glezos | One of my personal goals is to continue having Fedora be the leader in niche aspects of the open source development ecosystem. | 12:09 |
| +stickster | Such as L10n perhaps? | 12:09 |
| +stickster | :-) | 12:09 |
| +glezos | Our open build system, custom live spins were highly innovative solutions | 12:09 |
| +glezos | stickster: and that. :) | 12:09 |
| * skvidal has a goal | 12:09 | |
| +caillon | poelcat, what specific initiatives would you like to see pursued? | 12:09 |
| +h\h | caillon, smart move :) | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | I'd like to see more upstream projects realize the benefit they get of working more closely with fedora | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | so that upstream devels are tied in to fedora bit more tightly, that, through peer-pressure, will drive more users towards us | 12:10 |
| +glezos | we should pursue in keeping and enforcing this leadership Fedora is showing. | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | to devels, we should be the "cool kids" | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | to users - the devels are the cool kids | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | the users will follow what the devels blog and tweet about | 12:10 |
| +skvidal | and I want that to be fedora | 12:11 |
| +quaid | <poelcat> quaid_moderator: to caillon: the fedora board is often compared to corporate boards at publicly traded companies so I was wondering what goals and objectives the fedora board is setting and how they plan to lead fedora forward | 12:11 |
| +stickster | I'd like to look at the state of Sugar/OLPC software in ~6 months to see what the impact of that work has been outside of OLPC | 12:11 |
| +stickster | I'd also like to see our Marketing team working on a more externally-focused set of objectives, i.e. consistent messaging to non-Fedora and non-FOSS audiences | 12:12 |
| * stickster backs off mic | 12:13 | |
| +stickster | Anyone else? | 12:13 |
| +ctyler | I'd like to see Fedora become the distro of choice for teaching how to get involved in an Open Source community. | 12:13 |
| +caillon | poelcat, i'm not sure that comparison is 100% fair, but i think part of it depends on a decision for what fedora's goals as a project are defined as, and part depends on individuals on the board's pet projects, so isn't necessarily representative for the board as a whole. | 12:14 |
| +ctyler | I think we're in the strongest position of any of the main distros for that. | 12:14 |
| * glezos would like to see poelcat's question discussed in more detail on a Board phone meeting and come up with more specific and consistent answers. | 12:14 | |
| * h\h 2 | 12:14 | |
| +caillon | so i'm rather keen on getting a definition which should help shape the rest of what we do. | 12:15 |
| +stickster | I think that having individual "pet projects" is more reflective of the fact that the resources the Board can marshal are limited beyond ourselves. | 12:15 |
| +caillon | that said, i've got a strong interest in furthering the desktop and improving our QA efforts, myself. | 12:15 |
| +skvidal | caillon: can you get more of the desktop team blogging about what they're doing? | 12:15 |
| +glezos | skvidal: that would be great. | 12:16 |
| +stickster | Notwithstanding what notting half-joked about earlier, and caillon reiterates. Tightening the definition of Fedora is a worthy goal, I think. | 12:16 |
| +skvidal | caillon: esp blogging on places picked up by planet gnome - I see a lot of ubuntu posts on planet gnome - but not a lot of fedora-related ones | 12:16 |
| +caillon | skvidal, i'd love to. though that may come in the form of seeing lots more of my mug on planet doing reports | 12:16 |
| +stickster | caillon: Don't tease us. | 12:17 |
| +skvidal | caillon: I don't mind, you're reasonably cute :) | 12:17 |
| +glezos | skvidal: there's a lot of Ubuntu talk and less Fedora talk at GUADEC as well. | 12:17 |
| +caillon | skvidal, aw, you're making me blush | 12:17 |
| +skvidal | caillon: but getting those posts on the desktop-planets wouldn't hurt | 12:17 |
| +caillon | trust me, i know. it's a real goal for me. | 12:18 |
| +stickster | It's not even a matter of trying to be louder, it's simply letting people know about all the cool work going on. | 12:18 |
| +skvidal | caillon: cool. thanks | 12:18 |
| +stickster | yup, thanks caillon | 12:18 |
| +stickster | quaid: Next Q? | 12:18 |
| +quaid | do you want more qestions? | 12:18 |
| * quaid lost a 'u' | 12:18 | |
| +quaid | <spoleeba> quaid_moderator, speaking of contributors...... here's my | 12:18 |
| +quaid | question... have we identified target groups to seek out as | 12:18 |
| +quaid | contributors? Or are we content with a walkin only approach to | 12:18 |
| +quaid | recruitment? | 12:18 |
| +stickster | I'm game but respect that some Board members are overtasked today | 12:18 |
| * ctyler needs to step out shortly | 12:18 | |
| +notting | i think recruitment needs to happen more at the sig/task level, not as a board level | 12:19 |
| +caillon | or at the school level *cough*ctyler | 12:19 |
| +stickster | The people we'd want to recruit for Docs task probably have a different general profile from people who would make, say, good packagers | 12:19 |
| +ctyler | caillon: absolutely :-) | 12:19 |
| +notting | at the global level, we can probably at best do a 'interested in contributing? see <x y z>' (examples of ways to contribute, and who/where to see for more info) | 12:20 |
| +glezos | or at LUGs. | 12:20 |
| * skvidal gets out the razorblades | 12:20 | |
| +notting | i.e., the join-fedora page | 12:20 |
| +mdomsch | I think we do do that; the K12LTSP integration that warren has been working on. The FEL work. The audio guys from Stanford that joined up a few years back... | 12:20 |
| +f13 | We want to recruit people that want to contribute. | 12:21 |
| +stickster | Some of the new infrastructure folks who have worked out very well. | 12:21 |
| +f13 | beyond that.... | 12:21 |
| +mdomsch | planet CCRMA that was... | 12:21 |
| +stickster | I would say that finding people who want to contribute is a harder task than finding people with the right skill sets to do so. | 12:22 |
| +stickster | Shall we take another question? | 12:22 |
| * ctyler regretfully steps out, will read scrollback later | 12:22 | |
| +stickster | Thank you ctyler! | 12:22 |
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| * skvidal has another meeting in 8 minutes, too | 12:23 | |
| +stickster | quaid: What does the queue look like? | 12:23 |
| +quaid | three q | 12:23 |
| +stickster | Let's take one and call it a meeting. | 12:23 |
| +f13 | Yes, no, and orange. Seeya! | 12:23 |
| +stickster | f13: wrong, cerulean. | 12:23 |
| +caillon | ecru | 12:23 |
| +stickster | maize. | 12:23 |
| +quaid | ok, I'm going to pick | 12:23 |
| +quaid | inode0> Question: could the board collect some questions in advance of these meetings so more thought could be given to them before the board discusses them? | 12:23 |
| * quaid thinks the others were derivative and covered ground already covered. | 12:24 | |
| +f13 | I don't see that as a bad idea | 12:24 |
| +stickster | inode0: I think that's the purpose of the fedora-advisory-board list, which is open to everyone. | 12:24 |
| +notting | ooh, good idea. | 12:24 |
| +f13 | right | 12:24 |
| +stickster | We watch that and discuss things there all the time. | 12:24 |
| +f13 | the only danger is that we'll wind up answering them on list and never getting to them on IRC (: | 12:24 |
| +notting | stickster: but i don't think we've specifically advertised that as a means for pre-seeding the public chat | 12:24 |
| +stickster | f13: But they're so much more googly there! | 12:24 |
| +stickster | Or is it "googlier"? | 12:24 |
| +stickster | I like the idea that the chats are done on our toes... are we sure that making this a scripted meeting is an improvement? | 12:25 |
| +glezos | I think this could be done in parallel to meetings. | 12:25 |
| -!- v0idang3l [n=angel@116.193.168.5] has quit [Client Quit] | 12:26 | |
| +caillon | stickster, it would have the benefit that we can answer everyone's questions in a more timely fashion | 12:26 |
| +caillon | and thus make it less likely that we'll not answer two questions, as we are now. | 12:26 |
| +glezos | That is, once every month the Board can accept questions and provide answers to them collectively and asynchronously a few days later. | 12:26 |
| -!- darthmarth37|Wk [n=darthmar@xt15.math.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 12:26 | |
| +stickster | Well, you do have a point. But it's not "not answering" if those questions are posted to FAB as follow-up. | 12:26 |
| +f13 | right | 12:27 |
| -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Baconz@fedora/sonarguy] has quit [Client Quit] | 12:27 | |
| +f13 | IRC gives you real time, posting to the list is not likely to be any less unscripted non-cohesive response generating | 12:28 |
| +f13 | we don't meet in a shadowy room to make sure we're all reading from the same script when we reply to email | 12:28 |
| +f13 | we aren't a hive mind | 12:28 |
| +stickster | f13: True enough | 12:28 |
| +skvidal | f13: yes we are | 12:28 |
| +skvidal | f13: you've not yet joined | 12:28 |
| +notting | f13: then what are we meeting in the shadowy room for? | 12:28 |
| +stickster | skvidal: shh, we're quiet now precious. | 12:28 |
| +f13 | skvidal may speak for himself, but we all speak for skvidal | 12:28 |
| +skvidal | notting: and will someone please open a window to clear out all the smoke? | 12:28 |
| +stickster | quaid: Why don't you post the two remaining questions that way, and maybe I can get notting or someone to open a pre-seed thread later this month? | 12:29 |
| * quaid posts | 12:29 | |
| +notting | more seriously, sending them ahead of time or after time to f-a-b makes sense. f-a-b discussions are less likely to come to actionable decision points, though | 12:29 |
| +quaid | JKnife> quaid_moderator: Why Linux for Fedora and not, lets say *BSD | 12:29 |
| +quaid | or minix3? | 12:29 |
| +quaid | <viking_ice> Is the Desktop SIG a Gnome Desktop SIG or is that SIG | 12:29 |
| +quaid | made up of members from other *DE SIG's | 12:29 |
| +notting | JKnife: it's our body of expertise. not worth switching. | 12:29 |
| +stickster | OK, cool, we'll look for them there. | 12:29 |
| +stickster | quaid: Thanks for moderating for us! | 12:30 |
| +caillon | viking_ice, members from e.g. the KDE SIG participate | 12:30 |
| +f13 | JKnife: Fedora doesn't say "Linux" anywhere in its offerings, come up with a Fedora BSD spin and we'll talk | 12:30 |
| +stickster | oops | 12:30 |
| +stickster | I guess, so much for winding up. | 12:30 |
| +f13 | well I take that back, I'm sure we say Linux many places | 12:30 |
| +f13 | but it's called Fedora, not Fedora Linux | 12:30 |
| +quaid | stickster: my pleasure, anytime | 12:31 |
| +glezos | f13: would bootstrapping such a team/technology be realistic for a Google SoC project? | 12:31 |
| +f13 | um. | 12:31 |
| +notting | glezos: i... don't see the point? | 12:31 |
| +f13 | yeah | 12:31 |
| +f13 | I don't either. | 12:31 |
| +f13 | what would it accomplish? | 12:31 |
| +caillon | viking_ice, but doing the same work multiple times is not fun, and the desktop SIG focuses primarily on on DE, namely GNOME. | 12:31 |
| +glezos | me neither, just taking the 'come up with a Fedora spin' a step further. :) | 12:32 |
| +stickster | caillon: But to be fair, much applicable work is done in freedesktop.org so as to enable other DEs fairly | 12:32 |
| +notting | caillon: viking_ice: i would say that the original people who were interested in pushing forward the desktop came from a GNOME base of knowledge and experience, and it sort of becomes self-sustaining from there | 12:32 |
| * stickster overuses the word "fair," sorry. | 12:32 | |
| +f13 | stickster: fairy. | 12:32 |
| +stickster | f13: queen! | 12:33 |
| +notting | w.r.t. BSD, for example, i don't think it's fair to expect all packagers to suddenly have to maintain multiple builds and ports for different kernels. in fact, i can imagine the response from the X side of the house pretty well. | 12:33 |
| +caillon | stickster, yes. the work done is specifically to make it easy for other frontends to plug-in. see NetworkManager, PackageKit, PolicyKit, etc. | 12:33 |
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| +quaid | <speaking out of turn> stickster: yes, that is probably the best point to make -- Fedora is a converged desktop more than a GNOME or KDE-preferring distro </speaking...> | 12:33 |
| +f13 | notting: releng would have a pretty nasty response as well, as I"m sure QA would too | 12:33 |
| +stickster | caillon: Exactly | 12:34 |
| +mdomsch | and again, what's the point? | 12:34 |
| * stickster can't imagine having to deal with builds of his relatively insignificant package maintainer load for OS's with which he's not familiar. | 12:34 | |
| +caillon | it just so happens that the frontend that gets written first is (usually) the GNOME one | 12:34 |
| +mdomsch | just because we could write something a dozen times doesn't mean we should | 12:34 |
| +stickster | mdomsch: f13: Maybe the answer is, "Why not?" | 12:34 |
| +f13 | stickster: because it costs real resources to do | 12:35 |
| +h\h | time | 12:35 |
| +caillon | Fedora: The Aristocrats version | 12:35 |
| +stickster | f13: Sorry, I was unclear -- "Why not Linux?" | 12:35 |
| +f13 | and in order to spend the resource, I'd like a ... | 12:35 |
| +f13 | ah. | 12:35 |
| +stickster | caillon: lulz. | 12:35 |
| +mdomsch | if the people who want the work done pony up the resources, hey, who am I to stop them? | 12:35 |
| +stickster | *magically* pony. | 12:35 |
| +mdomsch | it's the secondary arch discussion all over again | 12:35 |
| +f13 | mdomsch: I'm the guy to stop them. (being the one responsible for the buildsystem) | 12:36 |
| +f13 | Fedora on BSD could be done, on its own, using the secondary mark | 12:36 |
| +notting | mdomsch: well, same for long life span, or .... | 12:36 |
| * mdomsch points to OBS | 12:36 | |
| +stickster | True enough. | 12:36 |
| +mdomsch | exactly | 12:36 |
| +notting | mdomsch: i think it's the sort of thing where we'd want to see a reasonable commitment and demonstration of viability before we'd want to attach the Fedora name brand to it | 12:37 |
| +mdomsch | until someone steps up to do it though, it's moot | 12:37 |
| +mdomsch | notting, sure | 12:37 |
| * mdomsch deals with unrealistic requests daily | 12:37 | |
| +stickster | Which is often the right answer to "Why don't 'we' do <X/>?". | 12:37 |
| +f13 | are we done here? my stomach is yelling loudly at me. | 12:37 |
| +quaid | btw, I'll post the IRC log, but to do so we eventually need to close the meeting :) | 12:37 |
| +stickster | OK, I think we've now beat two horses simultaneously to death. | 12:38 |
| -!- John5342 [n=john5342@fedora/John5342] has left #fedora-board-meeting [] | 12:38 | |
| +stickster | f13 will soon get low blood sugar and lash out violently :-) | 12:38 |
| +spot | OH GOD WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY HORSES?!?!? | 12:38 |
| +f13 | mmmmm | 12:38 |
| +f13 | glue | 12:38 |
| +stickster | quaid: Thank you again for moderating for us. | 12:38 |
| +stickster | Thank you to the community for the good questions and their kind attendance! | 12:38 |
| +quaid | </meeting> | 12:38 |
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