Meeting:Board meeting 2009-02-03

Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-02-03

Board Questions & Answers

• See the log for detailed answers
• What is Fedora?
  • More discussion on this topic at the Board's next meeting
• What is the news on the 'incident' last year, and when can we hear more?
• Is Red Hat ever going to do main stream ads for Fedora (like on TV or Radio)?
• Why will there be no FUDCon associated with the Red Hat Summit in Chicago in September 2009?
• Why don't we replace the offical GA release with an updated one from Fedora Unity and archive the GA release when they have released an updated GA release ?
• Is cowsay code or content? ... the question really is how can I look at a package and classify it as code or content?
• Now with the ability to create a "live" cd shouldn't Fedora stop officially site with a specific DE ( Now it's Gnome ) and allow all DE to compete on a fair ground and all reference to "Desktop" would strictly be a generic one ( containing a just a list of all the DE's that Fedora offers ) ?
• What key strategic initiatives is the board pursuing for 2009?
  • glezos would like to see this question discussed in more detail on a Board phone meeting and come up with more specific and consistent answers
• Have we identified target groups to seek out as contributors? Or are we content with a walk-in only approach to recruitment?
• Could the board collect some questions in advance of these meetings so more thought could be given to them before the board discusses them?
• Is the Desktop SIG a Gnome Desktop SIG or is that SIG made up of members from other *DE SIG's

#fedora-board-meeting

stickster	We are agenda-free today, 100% Q & A.	11:00
stickster	We may be awaiting one or two other Board members	11:00
quaid	ok, shall we ... wait a minute?	11:00
quaid	heh, there we go	11:00
f13	Q: Does Fedora like burning trees, or saving kittens?	11:00
quaid	A: Yes	11:01
f13	A: Burn them both!	11:01
stickster	I think we're still awaiting spot and h\h	11:01
stickster	I pinged them both	11:01
* mdomsch hears the cries of PETA		11:01
caillon	and dmitris	11:02
quaid	stickster: you have the back channel pingwtfru?	11:02
stickster	quaidYes	11:02
stickster	Let's get started at 1905 UTC.	11:03
* quaid sets his stopwatch		11:04
glezos	hiya all	11:04
stickster	Hi Dimitris!	11:04
stickster	OK, let's get started	11:05
stickster	quaid: Whenever you're ready.	11:05
quaid	ok!	11:05
quaid	good day everyone, I'm your friendly moderator	11:05
quaid	I'll grab questions from the #-public- channel and paste them here	11:06
quaid	in rought order.	11:06
quaid	since we have some queued, shall we roll? or stickster do you want to say anything?	11:06
* quaid reaches to grab the mic back from stickster		11:06
stickster	We're ready to proceed with Q & A -- we kept the agenda clear so we'd have plenty of time for them.	11:06
stickster	quaid: Shoot.	11:06
stickster	And hi to all Board members :-)	11:07
quaid	ok, the first question led to the second, so I'll post them both:	11:07
quaid	viking_ice> How to compete with google and becoming world dominators	11:07
quaid	ke4qqq raises the question "What is Fedora's purpose?' and hands it to	11:07
quaid	</>	11:07
quaid	i.e., the second question goes to the first.	11:07
f13	First, world domination shouldn't be the goal of Fedora	11:08
notting	compete with google? in what context? (we're obviously not writing a search engine, nor are we planning on deploying massive amounts of worldwide infrastructure anytime soon)	11:08
stickster	We're not trying to index all the world's information, which is Google's raison d'etre IIRC.	11:08
f13	this is a question the board struggled with last meeting	11:08
f13	what we have agreed upon is that one goal of Fedora should be furthering the adoption of free and opensource software in the world.	11:09
f13	but thats nice and hand wavy	11:09
glezos	Fedora's goal is to foster a healthy community of contributors with the goal of producing a complete and solid open source operating system. I don't think this comes in competition with Google.	11:09
quaid	notting, stickster -- it was a joke that pointed to the fact that people don't know the answer to what Fedora's purpose is	11:09
notting	quaid: well, in that case... "working on it"	11:10
stickster	The answer is slightly different if we're talking about the Fedora Project as opposed to Fedora the Linux distribution.	11:10
mdomsch	a) community; b) distribution...	11:10
mdomsch	the community goal is to provide a welcoming and vibrant workspace in which to develop open source software that people find useful (yeah, handwavy...)	11:11
stickster	"Purpose," "Goal," "Mission" are necessarily hand-wavy.	11:12
mdomsch	from that we are able to produce a distribution which people find useful in a variety of ways	11:12
mdomsch	and if we don't provide one they find useful, we certainly provide the tools to let them make one themselves which they find useful	11:12
stickster	I think what people want to know when they ask the question "What is Fedora," is more often, "How do we know what Fedora is not, so we don't end up spreading resources too thinly?"	11:13
mdomsch	fedora is not a brewery, though you may find it's members at one on occasion	11:13
stickster	I believe the purpose of the project is to pioneer the methods by which a community works together to advance FOSS. One of the ways we demonstrate those methods is through production of Fedora the distribution. I believe the purpose of the distribution should be to serve in a balanced way as a platform or development by its contributor constituents.	11:14
notting	well, the idea is to have a healthy and vibrant community, such that that community is capable of working on the various long tail uses, packages, etc. if they are interested	11:14
stickster	s/or devel/for devel/	11:14
h\h	notting, well said	11:15
* f13 notes that we could probably wind up spending the entire hour talking about this		11:15
notting	the question is then to define what constitutes the long tail and what doesn't. for example, we've stated that secondary arches such as ia64 or s390 are part of that long tail, and not necessarily part of the core fedora mission	11:15
mdomsch	I like the "4 Fs" that the marketing team have been promoting	11:15
stickster	Yes, let's try and limit this question to stop about 1925 so we don't disregard others	11:15
* skvidal notes we have wasted other hours on it		11:15
caillon	stickster, hopefully "quality" is part of that definition of purpose.	11:15
mdomsch	are we often asked to provide something, a service or a product, to which there simply aren't resources available?	11:16
stickster	caillon: I think that should be part of our objectives, yes.	11:16
quaid	I can put a time limit on the question, if you wish	11:16
quaid	s/question/answer/ really	11:16
mdomsch	(unless one considers exhaustive QA and/or the package review backlog that lack of resources)	11:16
stickster	mdomsch: There's the constantly recurring question of a long-term support branch of Fedora.	11:16
skvidal	quaid: good call	11:16
mdomsch	or long-term support	11:16
mdomsch	stickster, yeah...	11:17
quaid	stickster: ok, I got the watch	11:17
skvidal	stickster: I like to call that the 'magical pony' branch	11:17
f13	mdomsch: the question can come up when we're discussing the FEL question this week, about whether or not to ship the content that chitlesh wants to ship	11:17
mdomsch	skvidal isn't content with a pony in his choice of color and size, he wants it to be magical too? :-)	11:17
mdomsch	f13, pointer to discussion?	11:18
skvidal	mdomsch: well - considering a pony is POSSIBLE given the constraints of the universe	11:18
skvidal	mdomsch: a magical pony is not	11:18
skvidal	mdomsch: hence this is the magical pony branch	11:18
skvidal	b/c it is NOT possible	11:18
ctyler	I'm increasingly viewing Fedora (the product) as a constellation of open source packages, "the best of open source that works today" as skvidal said at FUDCon F8, which are useful to people in many different combinations: desktop, server, both, netbook, multiseat, whatever.	11:18
f13	mdomsch: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg02364.html	11:18
mdomsch	I am perfectly fine w/ Fedora not having a long-term support strategy, FWIW	11:19
* skvidal doesn't recall saying something so optimistic as that		11:19
f13	skvidal: shocking	11:19
* ctyler points skvidal to the FUDCon video		11:19
skvidal	I must have followed it up with "we're all going to die soon, anyway"	11:19
stickster	mdomsch: As am I. I find it's a distraction from forward momentum, especially when in the community space that void is filled by CentOS, or RHEL if you want paid support.	11:19
h\h	right	11:20
* ctyler nods		11:20
stickster	skvidal: Always Mary Sunshine.	11:20
quaid	the "best of open source that works today" is something Max has repeated; it came from Tiemann originaly iirc	11:21
skvidal	stickster: I have a middle name, too - but I won't use it in a public forum :)	11:21
stickster	skvidal: ;-)	11:21
f13	MRFS	11:21
ctyler	mmcgrath points out that there are many kinds of (possibly conflicting) 'best'	11:21
f13	or MRoFS. That's it, skvidal is forever hence known as mrofs.	11:21
f13	mmcgrath has a good point	11:22
stickster	The point of having the entire project under a free license allows people to do outside the project with equivalent tools that which we may not be able to accommodate in-house.	11:22
quaid	<mmcgrath> ctyler: Its tricky to say "best" because its subjective. Saying "newest" or "most stable" is more objective.	11:22
stickster	So we can serve as an effective booster for even objectives in which we don't have a direct interest.	11:22
f13	when we envoke the term best, we have to also determine who gets to decide what 'best' is.	11:22
caillon	well, best is ambiguous because we don't have a project goal. defining that goal is a first step to defining best.	11:23
* quaid mumbles about the Royal We		11:23
ctyler	When Fedora is a package constellation, there can be more than one 'best' present.	11:23
* stickster notes < 2 min warning.		11:23
skvidal	ctyler: up to a limit	11:24
skvidal	ctyler: at some point 'bests' conflict	11:24
* caillon runs out of bounds to stop the clock		11:24
* glezos notes that although the lack of a definition/mantra won't kill a project, the existence of one will definitely help guide the project and its people to the right direction at difficult times.		11:24
notting	right. it could be useful in light of the architecture discussions, or desktop vs. server, or...	11:25
glezos	I think it's by definition difficult to come up with an answer to this, but that doesn't mean we should give up trying to find the essence of what we are doing and represent.	11:25
ctyler	skvidal: right, but as long as there's energy to maintian both, spin X can utilize 'best X' and spin Y can use 'best Y'	11:25
* quaid notes time is up, do we want to suspend here ...		11:25
stickster	glezos: Yes, no one doubts the importance of the question.	11:25
notting	quaid ^Z	11:25
stickster	It's hard to answer and the Board is set to take up the discussion again next week.	11:25
caillon	quaid, it's probably fairest to the masses if we suspend, yes.	11:25
quaid	ok then	11:25
* mdomsch recalls Admiral Stockdale.		11:26
quaid	back to f-a-b with that discussion ...	11:26
quaid	nirik> I'll bring up the question I always do: "What is the news on	11:26
quaid	the 'incident' last year, and when can we hear more? I was hoping	11:26
quaid	there was going to be some news, but I haven't seen anything"	11:26
quaid	</q>	11:26
skvidal	nirik: out of curiosity	11:26
glezos	The Board hasn't received any updates on this issue.	11:27
skvidal	if you could pick any answer you could get	11:27
skvidal	what would be a home-run answer?	11:27
stickster	There is nothing new to report at this moment, but I want to say that desepite naysaying to the contrary, no one has forgotten the fact that we owe the community a final disclosure report, nor trying to sweep that under the rug.	11:27
notting	skvidal: the offender has been found. his head is on a pike <here>	11:27
caillon	stickster, or at the least, you owe us some of those blue mind erasing sticks so we stop asking.  ;-)	11:27
notting	that would be my wishcasting answer ;)	11:27
stickster	caillon: I like the asking, it keeps people honest.	11:28
skvidal	quaid: can you paste his response in here?	11:28
* quaid <nirik> skvidal: it would be: "we plan to release details in a press conference at 2009-xx-xx and will take questions then"		11:28
f13	I'm sure skvidal could whip up some milk-of-amnesia	11:28
skvidal	nirik: can you be any more specific about the details you'd like that have not already been released?	11:29
skvidal	what, to you, is lacking in the currently released information	11:29
skvidal	I know what I want from it	11:29
skvidal	but I want to make sure I'm not an odd case	11:29
skvidal	(no one make any jokes about that last comment)	11:30
skvidal	:)	11:30
glezos	Once we have more information, I'd like to see the Board produce a full disclosure report and a plan of action for a similar event in the future.	11:31
quaid	nirik> skvidal: I think I would like to hear "it was a failure of: people or packages or process" and I would love to hear that the people or packages or process were fixed both for fedora and anyone using the fedora distro.	11:31
glezos	If under the same circumstances the same approach will take place, we should discuss if we can change something so that we can act differently in the future.	11:31
skvidal	nirik: okay, thanks.	11:31
notting	the people were fixed? ouch. that can hurt.	11:31
f13	notting: hey, you brought up heads on pikes.	11:31
* quaid buzzes five minute timer on this answer		11:31
* skvidal is done		11:32
mdomsch	mmcgrath has been working on a plan for "if something similar happens again" (crosses fingers it won't)	11:32
* caillon first read that as if the plan was to cross fingers...		11:32
glezos	mdomsch: good to know, thanks	11:33
quaid	ok, next question ...	11:33
quaid	JKnife> quaid_moderator: Ok, serious question, Is RedHat ever going to	11:33
quaid	do main stream ads for Fedora(like on TV or Radio)?	11:33
stickster	mdomsch: Yes, mmcgrath and I met at FUDCon and talked about that as a matter of fact.	11:33
stickster	JKnife: I don't believe so. Mainstream ads on TV and radio are extremely expensive and don't necessarily attract an audience of contributors for Fedora.	11:33
f13	To what end? What would be the end result benefit for Red Hat or the Fedora project?	11:34
mdomsch	a) ever is a long time; b) I haven't seen a Red Hat commercial ad for their own products	11:34
h\h	in which country? :)	11:34
stickster	mdomsch: good poing on (B).	11:34
stickster	*point, even.	11:34
caillon	mdomsch, closest we've had is a full page in NYT, iirc.	11:34
skvidal	and what would the ad be like	11:34
notting	i think we'd have to define the purpose and audience of Fedora before we have ads	11:34
stickster	Our Ambassador crew is our main grassroots effort to spread Fedora to the masses and they do a spectacular job.	11:34
skvidal	"Heard of linux? No? Then this is going to be confusing!"	11:34
stickster	notting: heh.	11:35
mdomsch	"we're in your pocket, owning your iPhone..."	11:35
notting	i mean, we could hire Alec Baldwin to tell people that Fedora's an evil plot to destroy the world, but it's probably not practical	11:35
mdomsch	or we could hire BillG and Seinfeld	11:36
f13	would be fun though	11:36
glezos	Thinking about the full-page Firefox newspaper ad, I'd like stress out here the power of the community itself.	11:36
stickster	But I'd like to see him re-enact the Glengarry Glen Ross scene, only with Fedora before the steak knives.	11:36
* glezos would *love* to see something like spreadfedora.com :)		11:36
f13	It might be useful to take out adds for Fedora events in local media outlets around the event	11:36
notting	stickster: that should be your next state-of-fedora speech at fudcon	11:36
mdomsch	mozilla got quite a lot of (free) attention by announcing they were going to try setting a world record for downloads	11:36
stickster	notting: Don't tempt me.	11:37
f13	either events purely Fedora, or bigger events that Fedora happens to be participating in.	11:37
mdomsch	f13, Fedora ran an ad several days in the MIT student paper before FUDCon	11:37
stickster	Mozilla also has a broader-based product appeal. Remember that it runs on Windows.	11:37
f13	mdomsch: yeah, stuff like that.	11:37
f13	stickster: well, we run in PCs, Macs, etc... (:	11:38
stickster	You know what I meant.	11:38
stickster	:-)	11:38
caillon	and a very high percentage of their userbase overlaps with windows users	11:38
f13	yes	11:38
f13	and overlaps with TV watchers	11:38
h\h	marketing by writing nice blogs and howtos how to get s.th. done with free software and fedora helps more than any tv or radio add, I think	11:39
f13	whereas I bet we have a high percentage of our target audience skipping commercials due to PVR devices	11:39
stickster	h\h: That's way more effective with the kind of audience that we want to encourage to actually *get involved* in Fedora.	11:39
mdomsch	we need a Fedora logo on the side of Starbuck's shiny viper	11:39
f13	To sum up, I doubt we'll see Red Hat advertise on TV for Fedora any time soon, however we would like to see better advertisement targets used.	11:40
stickster	This is something that bears mention again -- that given a limited resource budget (not just money, but also people, time, energy, etc.), we concentrate on bringing in contributors to Fedora, not consumers.	11:40
* quaid notes that by focusing on contributors, we leverage 1:1,000,000 where focusing on consumers leverages a dismal 10:1 ... in terms of affecting community growth.		11:40
mdomsch	product placement is where it's at	11:40
stickster	Heh, I think we all just summarized the same way. Kismet!	11:40
quaid	mdomsch: if only the animation studios would put Fedora t-shirts on characters	11:40
quaid	stickster: and on that ... next q?	11:40
stickster	quaid: You're moderating, pipe down :-)	11:40
* quaid is trying!		11:41
stickster	+1	11:41
* ctyler wonders if a stunt similar to the WSJ firefox think might have value, though		11:41
f13	quaid: they use our software, surely we can insert a watermark somewhere (:	11:41
notting	mdomsch: so, we're competing with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzebPb60ffQ ?	11:41
quaid	<EvilBob> I have a question, I recently heard about the Red Hat Summit	11:41
quaid	in Chicago. It is my understanding that there will not be a FUDcon	11:41
quaid	tied to this event that is in the middle of the coasts allowing	11:41
quaid	contributors from the plains and midwest more of a chance to get to a	11:41
quaid	FUDcon. Why was this decision made.	11:41
quaid	<EvilBob> quaid_moderator: add to my FUDcon query, WHat funding is	11:41
quaid	available if the community got something arranged in the area.	11:41
* quaid notes the answer to the second was discussed wrt NA Ambassadors		11:41
quaid	</q>	11:41
f13	THe board talked about this	11:41
f13	We felt that the FUDCon attached to the RH Summit in BOS was a poor example of FUDCon compared to when we weren't attached to any event	11:42
stickster	It actually has nothing to do with geography and everything to do with the success (or lack thereof)) at the last Summit-colocated FUDCon.	11:42
f13	and instead we'd like to perhaps see a Fedora Activity Day happen there, as opposed to a general FUDCon	11:42
mdomsch	s/colocated/concurrent/	11:42
stickster	f13: +2.	11:42
stickster	mdomsch: That too!	11:42
stickster	Having a whole FUDCon at the Summit is distracting, expensive, and a logistical nightmare.	11:43
glezos	I think history has shown that our most successful FUDCons were ones that were not hosted together with another event.	11:43
stickster	I would note that mmcgrath is trying to get a FAD together in Chicago to work on infrastructure, but the event could be expanded through collaboration with him and whoever else is currently planning such an event.	11:44
stickster	glezos: Exactly	11:44
f13	It also calls into question what it is we want to aaccomplish with FUDCons	11:44
caillon	how many have we had with another event? i think there's a fairly small sample size here...	11:44
stickster	By "expanded" I mean, could include one or two other targeted areas ((as opposed to morphing into a FUDCon, which would defeat the point).	11:44
f13	having a large number of developers in the same area/time has generated some good results.	11:44
f13	the same can be said for a large number of non-"developer" type folks	11:44
stickster	caillon: It also happened with the FUDCon EMEA @LinuxTag 2008.	11:45
f13	and those two things don't have to happen at the same time/place	11:45
stickster	The pattern was hard to ignore at that point.	11:45
mdomsch	I like the idea of using FUDCon as a planning tool for upcoming releases	11:45
mdomsch	which we haven't really done explicitly	11:45
stickster	I think FADs give us an opportunity to do higher-touch, more user-centric events too.	11:45
f13	I do too, as well as a twice annual brain dump	11:45
glezos	Seeing the success of FUDCon Brno, our aim right now is to try and distribute FUDCons around the world, expanding their impact to a much larger community than before.	11:45
stickster	glezos: s/FUDCons/Fedora events/	11:45
glezos	stickster: right.	11:45
f13	there are two challenges.	11:46
f13	1) getting Red Hat people sent around that work on Fedora. 2) getting non-Red Hat people sent around that work on Fedora	11:46
glezos	stickster: FADs might also address much lower-touch, highly developer-centric events, like hackfests, coding sprints, etc.	11:46
f13	1 gets easy by doing things on the East Coast of the US. Huge number of people already there, relatively smaller numbers to fly in	11:46
f13	doesn't help with 2 at all	11:46
stickster	glezos: Absolutely, they can do either -- or both, with two rooms.	11:46
f13	to help with 2, we need to find more activities we can do in other places, that don't necessarily require/benefit from having a high number of Red Hat Fedora contributors.	11:47
stickster	f13: Right, that's where FADs come in.	11:47
f13	yep, trying to set the table for those	11:47
ctyler	More events will be fantastic. Getting as many people as possible in one place is great, too. I hope we can do both.	11:47
* quaid notes we have several questions in the queue still		11:48
f13	like anything, we have to be responsible about how we spend our resources.	11:48
skvidal	I think this horse is dead	11:48
f13	not just the $$ in Fedora's coffers, but also the resources of our contributors	11:48
stickster	The idea is that FADs can be set up by community members and a smaller funding amount goes much further with it being more of a local/regional event.j	11:48
* mdomsch notes his blog post yesterday too. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=30 FUDCons aren't the only places to discuss Fedora projects.		11:48
stickster	Maybe we should move on further in the q-queue.	11:48
f13	stickster: +1	11:48
* glezos will also bring the example of online development sprints, which were very successful in the Django project. A few people get together in various locations in the world and the others from home hacking together on IRC. This is something that should probably be discussed on -advisory-board though and will need someone to prove it works by actually trying it.		11:49
* glezos eof		11:49
quaid	* viking_ice raises hands and asks a serious question: Why don't we replace the offical GA release with an updated one from Fedora Unity and archive the GA release when they have released an updated GA release ?	11:49
quaid	eoq	11:49
skvidal	b/c it would mean 1. reving the world 2. mirrors would hate us. 3. recertifying for export, I believe	11:50
skvidal	it's a lot of work for questionably much benefit, imo	11:50
caillon	also, why would i download the "final release" if it's buggy and going to have a bugfix update in a few weeks?	11:50
ctyler	minimal win since the release cycle is so short	11:51
f13	"nobody runs a .0 release"	11:51
h\h	there is no dot in fedora :)	11:51
f13	I have a hard time believing that we'll continue to have enough bandwidth to concentrate on the next fedora, if we try to add even more releases into our plate.	11:51
mdomsch	Unity provides a useful bit of work, and I'm glad they do. Keep it up. I see that as additive, but it need not replace what is hosted on the mirrors.	11:52
skvidal	and he means both network and mental bandwidth	11:52
f13	its not like we're doing such a great job in the first place.	11:52
quaid	* viking_ice answers skvidal: Just alone the whole i586 should be enough for justifying the their being or an updated GA existance	11:52
stickster	I understand that the Ambassadors already hand out Unity respins at shows, which I think is a fine thing.	11:52
skvidal	what i586 incident?	11:52
quaid	s/i586/i586 incident/	11:52
f13	I'd rather see us work to improve the process for the official release so that we won't have as great a calling for respins.	11:52
skvidal	sigh - what other bugs should we respin for?	11:53
stickster	Delta rpms might help?	11:53
skvidal	stickster: somewhat - it'll diminish the size of things	11:53
stickster	Yeah, that's all I was saying. :-)	11:53
mdomsch	but not the number of updates being pushed...	11:53
skvidal	and the way we have in mind delta from original -> NOW should be nice	11:53
f13	it'll diminish the size of things users download, not mirrors	11:53
f13	it'll /increase/ the size of our mirror footprint and bandwidth costs	11:53
* stickster wants us not to wander too far into the weeds here.		11:53
skvidal	but they're so pretty	11:54
quaid	herlo> stickster: (in f-board), we did hand out Unity discs, but I'd like them to become more official and thus want to press them if it can be blessed by the board.	11:54
quaid	ok	11:54
skvidal	look at this one with the shiny leaves of three	11:54
skvidal	let me lick it	11:54
mdomsch	I care somewhat less about mirror space and bandwidth (we seem to manage), but in people concentration bandwidth	11:54
quaid	next q?	11:54
mdomsch	both consumers (hmm, which one should I download), and developers/testers.	11:54
quaid	<inode0> quaid_moderator: is cowsay code or content? ... the question really is how can I look at a package and classify it as code or content	11:55
stickster	herlo: That's a distinct possibility.	11:55
stickster	That sounds like more of a FESCo question to me.	11:55
f13	well, taking the question literally, you 'run' cowsay to produce something	11:55
stickster	Sorry, I meant:	11:55
stickster	inode0: That sounds like more of a FESCo question to me.	11:55
f13	you don't read cowsay contents in another application	11:55
f13	but the actual question, do you find our current wiki page not suitable to help you make that decision? If so, that really sounds like a FESCo/Packaging SIG issue	11:56
stickster	quaid: Next q, I'd say.	11:57
h\h	/exec cowsay Moo!	11:57
* stickster thinks of his favorite knock-knock joke.		11:57
h\h	f13: you would read cowsay contents in xchat :)	11:57
f13	*cough*	11:58
stickster	quaid: Next q please?	11:58
quaid	ok	11:58
quaid	* viking_ice raises hands and asks another one ( not sure if that's a micro one as well ) Now with the ability to create a "live" cd should'nt Fedora stop officially site with a specific DE ( Now it's Gnome ) and allow all DE to compete on a fair ground and all reference to "Desktop" would strictly be a generic one ( containing a just a list of all the DE's that Fedora offers ) ?	11:58
h\h	"compete" .. is there a winner?	11:59
f13	I think that's a bit of a misnomer. We don't actually produce anything called a Fedora Desktop	11:59
f13	We have a Fedora Live image, which is loosely tied to the Fedora installer sets	11:59
mdomsch	they don't all fit on a single CD...	11:59
notting	'now with the ability to create a "live" cd'? this isn't a new thing, we've been this way for many releases	11:59
f13	We have specific spins geared toward specific desktop environments, such as the KDE, XFCE, LX?? spins	12:00
glezos	I think we should have a Live CD which has passed through our QA process and everything. At the same time, we should encourage and support community SIGs to produce Live CDs of their own and even urge them to make them first-class ISOs as well (shipped on release date, etc)	12:00
ctyler	f13: the Gnome live disc is called "Fedora 10 Desktop Edition" on fedoraproject.org	12:00
notting	ctyler: and also says that's it's GNOME right there in the description	12:00
f13	However, our Fedora spin takes elements from not just gnome, but non DE specific things too	12:00
f13	hrm.	12:00
f13	I guess some marketing things have changed since we first decided to make the live images.	12:00
caillon	well the SIG name hasn't changed...	12:00
caillon	and AIUI, it's produced by the desktop SIG	12:01
* stickster notes there's a Desktop SIG and		12:01
stickster	nm, caillon is there already.	12:01
ctyler	current names on website are "Fedora 10 Desktop Edition" and "Fedora 10 KDE Desktop Edition"	12:01
f13	The current state that things are in, the fact is that advancements tend to happen in our Gnome desktop world first, and that's what the Fedora project puts out there as our "best foot forward" for lack of abetter term.	12:01
f13	NetworkManager and PackageKit being two recent examples of this	12:02
caillon	(did we ever get knetworkmanager?)	12:02
notting	caillon: we did, and it's being replaced with a plasmoid in kde4.2, iirc	12:02
stickster	caillon: /me was just talking with a contributor about kpackagekit earlier.	12:02
caillon	nod	12:03
* caillon has had a few of those talks lately too		12:03
stickster	I think it suffices to say that Fedora will always have a place for DE SIGs to feature their work as official spins	12:03
stickster	Subject to all the normal stuff to which Spins are subject.	12:03
f13	THere is even room for a GNOME spin, which specifically uses things from teh gnoem project instead of more generic things	12:04
stickster	Right.	12:04
f13	like a different browser, maybe a different IM toolset, etc...	12:04
stickster	skvidal: Please give your opinion on the horse, doctor.	12:04
notting	the epiphany spin? seems like overkill, but I suppose if someone's that motivated...	12:04
skvidal	stickster: DEAD	12:04
mdomsch	e12	12:04
caillon	notting, is that the epiphany webkit or the epiphany gecko spin?	12:05
skvidal	stickster: stiff	12:05
skvidal	stickster: rotting, actively	12:05
notting	mdomsch: surely that's the e17 spin	12:05
f13	notting: is it really any more overkill than the BrOffice spin?	12:05
skvidal	stickster: oh, look, maggots	12:05
* quaid ready with the next question		12:05
quaid	<poelcat> quaid_moderator: Q: What key strategic initiatives is the	12:05
quaid	board pursuing for 2009?	12:05
notting	f13: ugh	12:05
quaid	sorry, pasted early, but go ahead if you wish	12:05
stickster	QA.	12:05
f13	hey look, poelcat just gave me BS Bingo! I WIN!	12:05
f13	Yes, QA	12:06
f13	I've taken on QA as my special interest as a board member.	12:06
notting	1) defining the fedora target as stated earlier in the meeting. we hope to have this done by the end of 2009	12:06
h\h	leverage the shareholders income, I guess..	12:06
stickster	notting: cheeky monkey.	12:06
f13	What that means is that I keep an eye on whats happening there, reporting to the board, and well stepping in to get my hands dirty where I can	12:06
f13	and helping to drive board attention and resources to further the QA effort	12:06
* mdomsch wants to redefine the Fedora Project as a bank, so we can receive TARP funds to spend on TV advertising		12:06
stickster	We look at Red Hat's hiring of Adam Williamson to be a key investment in Fedora QA for coming releases	12:07
f13	also we have a couple important distribution releases to get done in 2009	12:07
* mdomsch is excited by the Fedora Cloud work that mmcgrath talked about at FUDCon		12:07
notting	f13: the next release is the most important release in the history of Fedora!	12:08
stickster	mdomsch: I think the question was specifically about the Board's initiatives	12:08
h\h	notting, for f13 it's F13 :)	12:08
stickster	Keeping in mind that we don't have dedicated budget or people, but only (hopefully) the energy to help promote things we believe will provide good long-term results for the Fedora Project.	12:08
glezos	One of my personal goals is to continue having Fedora be the leader in niche aspects of the open source development ecosystem.	12:09
stickster	Such as L10n perhaps?	12:09
stickster	:-)	12:09
glezos	Our open build system, custom live spins were highly innovative solutions	12:09
glezos	stickster: and that. :)	12:09
* skvidal has a goal		12:09
caillon	poelcat, what specific initiatives would you like to see pursued?	12:09
h\h	caillon, smart move :)	12:10
skvidal	I'd like to see more upstream projects realize the benefit they get of working more closely with fedora	12:10
skvidal	so that upstream devels are tied in to fedora bit more tightly, that, through peer-pressure, will drive more users towards us	12:10
glezos	we should pursue in keeping and enforcing this leadership Fedora is showing.	12:10
skvidal	to devels, we should be the "cool kids"	12:10
skvidal	to users - the devels are the cool kids	12:10
skvidal	the users will follow what the devels blog and tweet about	12:10
skvidal	and I want that to be fedora	12:11
quaid	<poelcat> quaid_moderator: to caillon: the fedora board is often compared to corporate boards at publicly traded companies so I was wondering what goals and objectives the fedora board is setting and how they plan to lead fedora forward	12:11
stickster	I'd like to look at the state of Sugar/OLPC software in ~6 months to see what the impact of that work has been outside of OLPC	12:11
stickster	I'd also like to see our Marketing team working on a more externally-focused set of objectives, i.e. consistent messaging to non-Fedora and non-FOSS audiences	12:12
* stickster backs off mic		12:13
stickster	Anyone else?	12:13
ctyler	I'd like to see Fedora become the distro of choice for teaching how to get involved in an Open Source community.	12:13
caillon	poelcat, i'm not sure that comparison is 100% fair, but i think part of it depends on a decision for what fedora's goals as a project are defined as, and part depends on individuals on the board's pet projects, so isn't necessarily representative for the board as a whole.	12:14
ctyler	I think we're in the strongest position of any of the main distros for that.	12:14
* glezos would like to see poelcat's question discussed in more detail on a Board phone meeting and come up with more specific and consistent answers.		12:14
* h\h 2		12:14
caillon	so i'm rather keen on getting a definition which should help shape the rest of what we do.	12:15
stickster	I think that having individual "pet projects" is more reflective of the fact that the resources the Board can marshal are limited beyond ourselves.	12:15
caillon	that said, i've got a strong interest in furthering the desktop and improving our QA efforts, myself.	12:15
skvidal	caillon: can you get more of the desktop team blogging about what they're doing?	12:15
glezos	skvidal: that would be great.	12:16
stickster	Notwithstanding what notting half-joked about earlier, and caillon reiterates. Tightening the definition of Fedora is a worthy goal, I think.	12:16
skvidal	caillon: esp blogging on places picked up by planet gnome - I see a lot of ubuntu posts on planet gnome - but not a lot of fedora-related ones	12:16
caillon	skvidal, i'd love to. though that may come in the form of seeing lots more of my mug on planet doing reports	12:16
stickster	caillon: Don't tease us.	12:17
skvidal	caillon: I don't mind, you're reasonably cute :)	12:17
glezos	skvidal: there's a lot of Ubuntu talk and less Fedora talk at GUADEC as well.	12:17
caillon	skvidal, aw, you're making me blush	12:17
skvidal	caillon: but getting those posts on the desktop-planets wouldn't hurt	12:17
caillon	trust me, i know. it's a real goal for me.	12:18
stickster	It's not even a matter of trying to be louder, it's simply letting people know about all the cool work going on.	12:18
skvidal	caillon: cool. thanks	12:18
stickster	yup, thanks caillon	12:18
stickster	quaid: Next Q?	12:18
quaid	do you want more qestions?	12:18
* quaid lost a 'u'		12:18
quaid	<spoleeba> quaid_moderator, speaking of contributors...... here's my	12:18
quaid	question... have we identified target groups to seek out as	12:18
stickster	I'm game but respect that some Board members are overtasked today	12:18
quaid	contributors? Or are we content with a walkin only approach to	12:18
* ctyler needs to step out shortly		12:18
quaid	recruitment?	12:18
notting	i think recruitment needs to happen more at the sig/task level, not as a board level	12:19
caillon	or at the school level *cough*ctyler	12:19
stickster	The people we'd want to recruit for Docs task probably have a different general profile from people who would make, say, good packagers	12:19
ctyler	caillon: absolutely :-)	12:19
notting	at the global level, we can probably at best do a 'interested in contributing? see <x y z>' (examples of ways to contribute, and who/where to see for more info)	12:20
glezos	or at LUGs.	12:20
* skvidal gets out the razorblades		12:20
notting	i.e., the join-fedora page	12:20
mdomsch	I think we do do that; the K12LTSP integration that warren has been working on. The FEL work. The audio guys from Stanford that joined up a few years back...	12:20
f13	We want to recruit people that want to contribute.	12:21
stickster	Some of the new infrastructure folks who have worked out very well.	12:21
f13	beyond that....	12:21
mdomsch	planet CCRMA that was...	12:21
stickster	I would say that finding people who want to contribute is a harder task than finding people with the right skill sets to do so.	12:22
stickster	Shall we take another question?	12:22
* ctyler regretfully steps out, will read scrollback later		12:22
stickster	Thank you ctyler!	12:22
* skvidal has another meeting in 8 minutes, too		12:23
stickster	quaid: What does the queue look like?	12:23
quaid	three q	12:23
stickster	Let's take one and call it a meeting.	12:23
f13	Yes, no, and orange. Seeya!	12:23
stickster	f13: wrong, cerulean.	12:23
caillon	ecru	12:23
stickster	maize.	12:23
quaid	ok, I'm going to pick	12:23
quaid	inode0> Question: could the board collect some questions in advance of these meetings so more thought could be given to them before the board discusses them?	12:23
f13	I don't see that as a bad idea	12:24
* quaid thinks the others were derivative and covered ground already covered.		12:24
stickster	inode0: I think that's the purpose of the fedora-advisory-board list, which is open to everyone.	12:24
notting	ooh, good idea.	12:24
f13	right	12:24
stickster	We watch that and discuss things there all the time.	12:24
f13	the only danger is that we'll wind up answering them on list and never getting to them on IRC (:	12:24
notting	stickster: but i don't think we've specifically advertised that as a means for pre-seeding the public chat	12:24
stickster	f13: But they're so much more googly there!	12:24
stickster	Or is it "googlier"?	12:24
stickster	I like the idea that the chats are done on our toes... are we sure that making this a scripted meeting is an improvement?	12:25
glezos	I think this could be done in parallel to meetings.	12:25
caillon	stickster, it would have the benefit that we can answer everyone's questions in a more timely fashion	12:26
caillon	and thus make it less likely that we'll not answer two questions, as we are now.	12:26
glezos	That is, once every month the Board can accept questions and provide answers to them collectively and asynchronously a few days later.	12:26
stickster	Well, you do have a point. But it's not "not answering" if those questions are posted to FAB as follow-up.	12:26
f13	right	12:27
f13	IRC gives you real time, posting to the list is not likely to be any less unscripted non-cohesive response generating	12:28
f13	we don't meet in a shadowy room to make sure we're all reading from the same script when we reply to email	12:28
f13	we aren't a hive mind	12:28
stickster	f13: True enough	12:28
skvidal	f13: yes we are	12:28
skvidal	f13: you've not yet joined	12:28
notting	f13: then what are we meeting in the shadowy room for?	12:28
stickster	skvidal: shh, we're quiet now precious.	12:28
f13	skvidal may speak for himself, but we all speak for skvidal	12:28
skvidal	notting: and will someone please open a window to clear out all the smoke?	12:28
stickster	quaid: Why don't you post the two remaining questions that way, and maybe I can get notting or someone to open a pre-seed thread later this month?	12:29
* quaid posts		12:29
notting	more seriously, sending them ahead of time or after time to f-a-b makes sense. f-a-b discussions are less likely to come to actionable decision points, though	12:29
quaid	JKnife> quaid_moderator: Why Linux for Fedora and not, lets say *BSD	12:29
quaid	or minix3?	12:29
quaid	<viking_ice> Is the Desktop SIG a Gnome Desktop SIG or is that SIG	12:29
quaid	made up of members from other *DE SIG's	12:29
notting	JKnife: it's our body of expertise. not worth switching.	12:29
stickster	OK, cool, we'll look for them there.	12:29
stickster	quaid: Thanks for moderating for us!	12:30
caillon	viking_ice, members from e.g. the KDE SIG participate	12:30
f13	JKnife: Fedora doesn't say "Linux" anywhere in its offerings, come up with a Fedora BSD spin and we'll talk	12:30
stickster	oops	12:30
stickster	I guess, so much for winding up.	12:30
f13	well I take that back, I'm sure we say Linux many places	12:30
f13	but it's called Fedora, not Fedora Linux	12:30
quaid	stickster: my pleasure, anytime	12:31
glezos	f13: would bootstrapping such a team/technology be realistic for a Google SoC project?	12:31
f13	um.	12:31
notting	glezos: i... don't see the point?	12:31
f13	yeah	12:31
f13	I don't either.	12:31
f13	what would it accomplish?	12:31
caillon	viking_ice, but doing the same work multiple times is not fun, and the desktop SIG focuses primarily on on DE, namely GNOME.	12:31
glezos	me neither, just taking the 'come up with a Fedora spin' a step further. :)	12:32
stickster	caillon: But to be fair, much applicable work is done in freedesktop.org so as to enable other DEs fairly	12:32
notting	caillon: viking_ice: i would say that the original people who were interested in pushing forward the desktop came from a GNOME base of knowledge and experience, and it sort of becomes self-sustaining from there	12:32
* stickster overuses the word "fair," sorry.		12:32
f13	stickster: fairy.	12:32
stickster	f13: queen!	12:33
notting	w.r.t. BSD, for example, i don't think it's fair to expect all packagers to suddenly have to maintain multiple builds and ports for different kernels. in fact, i can imagine the response from the X side of the house pretty well.	12:33
caillon	stickster, yes. the work done is specifically to make it easy for other frontends to plug-in. see NetworkManager, PackageKit, PolicyKit, etc.	12:33
quaid	<speaking out of turn> stickster: yes, that is probably the best point to make -- Fedora is a converged desktop more than a GNOME or KDE-preferring distro </speaking...>	12:33
f13	notting: releng would have a pretty nasty response as well, as I"m sure QA would too	12:33
stickster	caillon: Exactly	12:34
mdomsch	and again, what's the point?	12:34
* stickster can't imagine having to deal with builds of his relatively insignificant package maintainer load for OS's with which he's not familiar.		12:34
caillon	it just so happens that the frontend that gets written first is (usually) the GNOME one	12:34
mdomsch	just because we could write something a dozen times doesn't mean we should	12:34
stickster	mdomsch: f13: Maybe the answer is, "Why not?"	12:34
f13	stickster: because it costs real resources to do	12:35
h\h	time	12:35
caillon	Fedora: The Aristocrats version	12:35
stickster	f13: Sorry, I was unclear -- "Why not Linux?"	12:35
f13	and in order to spend the resource, I'd like a ...	12:35
f13	ah.	12:35
stickster	caillon: lulz.	12:35
mdomsch	if the people who want the work done pony up the resources, hey, who am I to stop them?	12:35
stickster	*magically* pony.	12:35
mdomsch	it's the secondary arch discussion all over again	12:35
f13	mdomsch: I'm the guy to stop them. (being the one responsible for the buildsystem)	12:36
f13	Fedora on BSD could be done, on its own, using the secondary mark	12:36
notting	mdomsch: well, same for long life span, or ....	12:36
* mdomsch points to OBS		12:36
stickster	True enough.	12:36
mdomsch	exactly	12:36
notting	mdomsch: i think it's the sort of thing where we'd want to see a reasonable commitment and demonstration of viability before we'd want to attach the Fedora name brand to it	12:37
mdomsch	until someone steps up to do it though, it's moot	12:37
mdomsch	notting, sure	12:37
* mdomsch deals with unrealistic requests daily		12:37
stickster	Which is often the right answer to "Why don't 'we' do <X/>?".	12:37
f13	are we done here? my stomach is yelling loudly at me.	12:37
quaid	btw, I'll post the IRC log, but to do so we eventually need to close the meeting :)	12:37
stickster	OK, I think we've now beat two horses simultaneously to death.	12:38
stickster	f13 will soon get low blood sugar and lash out violently :-)	12:38
spot	OH GOD WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY HORSES?!?!?	12:38
f13	mmmmm	12:38
f13	glue	12:38
stickster	quaid: Thank you again for moderating for us.	12:38
stickster	Thank you to the community for the good questions and their kind attendance!	12:38
quaid	</meeting>	12:38
stickster	We'll return first Tuesday of March, which is....	12:38
stickster	Oh, March 3. At 1900 UTC.	12:39
f13	stickster: re fairy, I meant the winged flying small creature, not some other meaning.	12:39
* mdomsch loves non-leap-years		12:39

#feodora-board-public

stickster	For anyone not familiar with the format, quaid_moderator will listen in here, and relay questions to the #fedora-board-meeting channel.	10:59
* inode0 is disoriented by this new moderator		10:59
stickster	Board members are assembled in that channel, and you can join it to watch the discussion.	10:59
quaid_moderator	good day everyone	10:59
viking_ice	Evening	11:00
kc8hfi	whats the agenda?	11:00
stickster	We are agenda-free today, 100% Q & A.	11:00
quaid_moderator	kc8hfi: right, this is driven by questions	11:00
viking_ice	How to compete with google and becoming world dominators	11:00
quaid_moderator	viking_ice: that will segue nicely in to "What is Fedora's purpose?"	11:01
* quaid_moderator has a feeling that might come up today		11:01
inode0	is cowsay code or content?	11:02
* ke4qqq raises the question "What is Fedora's purpose?' and hands it to quaid_moderator		11:02
herlo	lol	11:02
JKnife	isn't it to promote the use of opensource software and opwn standards while freeing computers of horrid file formats?	11:02
quaid_moderator	ke4qqq: got it	11:02
herlo	it was bound to be asked :)	11:03
quaid_moderator	thx, ke4qqq, I wanted to ask and comment but I'm supposed to moderate!	11:03
ke4qqq	figured I might as well get it out of the way	11:03
quaid_moderator	all I know is I didn't envy that question being my responsibility to answer when on the Board :)	11:03
ke4qqq	though it's likely to be a long one....so others may want to go first	11:03
nirik	I'll bring up the question I always do: "What is the news on the 'incident' last year, and when can we hear more? I was hoping there was going to be some news, but I haven't seen anything"	11:03
stickster	quaid_moderator: spevack has doubled up before, it's not unprecedented. :-)	11:03
ke4qqq	true....and you have the multiple personalities thing already going - two diff. nicks	11:04
quaid_moderator	stickster: heh, that would be my caveat -- I didn't think it was the Board's to answer then, and I don't now :D	11:04
quaid_moderator	ke4qqq: this is the same personality	11:04
quaid_moderator	you all should be happy diauq isn't here moderating	11:04
* spoleeba lurks		11:04
* quaid_moderator passes spoleeba walking slowly from his emeritus parking spot		11:04
thomasj	nirik +1	11:04
JKnife	ohh i have a question, why did yall use UTC for the meeting time instead of RedHats main office local time? (like y'all do with releases?)	11:04
quaid_moderator	JKnife: I'll queue that, because the "official Fedora time" question is still open	11:05
quaid_moderator	but I do think folks are good about using UTC, so you might get a -1 troll :D	11:05
JKnife	lol	11:05
edneymatias	:)	11:05
* viking_ice raises the question "when is Fedora going to get it self a live pony and give everyone a free ride on that pony when a pony ride is needed/wanted"		11:06
viking_ice	hehe	11:06
JMakey	Technically, it is generally less complicated to convert between one's local time and UTC than between one's local time and another's. Less knowledge is needed.	11:06
quaid_moderator	viking_ice: btw, do you want me to ask about world domination?	11:07
kc8hfi	and competing with google	11:07
JKnife	quaid_moderator: Ok, serious question, Is RedHat ever going to do main stream ads for Fedora(like on TV or Radio)?	11:08
viking_ice	quaid_moderator: nope..	11:08
quaid_moderator	JKnife: got it	11:08
ke4qqq	JKnife: do they even do mainstream ads for RH?	11:08
quaid_moderator	never have, fwiw	11:08
quaid_moderator	but Fedora is different, eh?	11:09
JKnife	ke4qqq: I thnk it would be something cool todo	11:09
* quaid_moderator wants a series of "Because we do it the Fedora Way," that call back to Sean Connery in The Untouchables		11:09
EvilBob	I have a question, I recently heard about the Red Hat Summit in Chicago. It is my understanding that there will not be a FUDcon tied to this event that is in the middle of the coasts allowing contributors from the plains and midwest more of a chance to get to a FUDcon. Why was this decision made.	11:09
ke4qqq	I'd love to see truth happens on tv, but the unwashed masses wouldn't get it.	11:09
JKnife	heh	11:10
inode0	EvilBob: bad scheduling in the cycle, not the best result combining them in boston, etc.	11:10
quaid_moderator	good question EvilBob, got it	11:10
JKnife	They could start minor ads on local tvs as a trial run and see how it does then move to a bigger scale	11:10
* quaid_moderator thinks inode0 has the gist, but wants to see Paul answer formally		11:10
JKnife	o/ EvilBob	11:10
inode0	will encourage us to do FADs instead :)	11:11
EvilBob	inode0: thanks but I want to hear the board as part of the computer and software industry snub the midwest themselves	11:11
quaid_moderator	FAD @ Summit is a great idea, perhaps	11:11
ke4qqq	quaid_moderator: I'll bite - lets hear the purpose/goal for both the community and distribution	11:12
* viking_ice raises hands and asks a serious question: Why don't we replace the offical GA release with an updated one from Fedora Unity and archive the GA release when they have released an updated GA release ?		11:12
EvilBob	inode0: NOTHING happens in with in an 8hour drive from here	11:12
inode0	quaid_moderator: did you get my question, which may have sounded frivolous but was serious	11:12
spoleeba	viking_ice, isnt that more of a release engineering question	11:12
spoleeba	viking_ice, the board's mandate isn't to micromanage the details of releases	11:12
inode0	EvilBob: you want to organize FUDcon in the twin cities?	11:13
EvilBob	inode0: i want ANYTHING to happen where I can drive to it	11:13
viking_ice	spoleeba: how so ? this affect all fedora's end users but ok	11:13
inode0	We've really been encouraged ... but paying union rates to colocate with something like the Summit is wildly expensive	11:13
spoleeba	viking_ice, the board does not micromanage all decisions	11:14
spoleeba	viking_ice, this is a bottom up organization	11:14
quaid_moderator	inode0: still looking, can you repost	11:14
EvilBob	inode0: the lack of events in this area is what made being an Ambassador a waste of time for me.	11:14
inode0	quaid_moderator: is cowsay code or content?	11:15
spoleeba	viking_ice, fesco/releng set time tables for release milestones.. a respin would be yet another mileston in the release process	11:15
quaid_moderator	inode0: can you enlighten me what that is just in case I have to explain?	11:15
inode0	quaid_moderator: the question really is how can I look at a package and classify it as code or content	11:16
viking_ice	spoleeba: Has fedora unity been asked if they could not manage that/those milestone(s) ?	11:16
spoleeba	the purpose discussion is never going to go away	11:16
inode0	cowsay is a perl script and a library of cows	11:16
JKnife	so wait.. Fedora has mixed unknown goals? shouldn't the goals be one f the first things done when starting a project to help build the road map?	11:16
spoleeba	Fedora as a project pushes the boundary of purpose because its pushing tech	11:16
inode0	I found the OVM business a little unsettling	11:17
spoleeba	we arent going to be able to build a 12 foot fence around what Fedora is...all we can do is put little sawhorses around and make a temporary fence	11:17
spoleeba	inode0, shrug	11:17
spoleeba	inode0, its absolutely no different than what has come before with java	11:18
spoleeba	inode0, no different	11:18
kc8hfi	what are the 4 F's that marketing have been promoting?	11:18
spoleeba	inode0, there was a crap load of open java code out there that we did not ship until we had an open java to intepret it	11:18
inode0	following precedents doesn't make things right - that argument means little to me	11:18
spoleeba	inode0, its absolutely right	11:19
spoleeba	inode0, same arguments then as now	11:19
inode0	it may be right, following a precedent doesn't make it right	11:19
spoleeba	inode0, the argumetns have not changed	11:19
mmcgrath	ctyler: Its tricky to say "best" because its subjective. Saying "newest" or "most stable" is more objective.	11:19
mmcgrath	both could be best, but they tend to conflict with eachother.	11:19
spoleeba	inode0, recycling the arguments..again...doesnt change history	11:19
inode0	spoleeba: it might help if code in this context were better defined (say interpreted code is content without an interpreter if that is the position of Fedora)	11:20
inode0	is that the position?	11:20
spoleeba	inode0, you arent going to get a clean definition of code/content	11:20
ctyler	mmcgrath: agreed	11:20
spoleeba	inode0, C code is intepreted code	11:21
EvilBob	As a FEdora user and Contributor I would hate to see a "LTS" branch take away from our already strained manpower resources	11:21
spoleeba	inode0, a compiler has to...interpret it	11:21
spoleeba	EvilBob, yes... anything like that would require new resources	11:22
inode0	then saying cowsay or ovm is content is arbitrary and that is just going to cause hard feelings	11:22
inode0	if you can't define it, don't use it as a point to discriminate	11:22
spoleeba	EvilBob, but..if for example.. I started a company whose busines it was to create a Fedora LTS...and put the resources in place...	11:22
spoleeba	inode0, im not descrimating	11:22
spoleeba	inode0, its the same as java	11:22
spoleeba	inode0, there is precedent.. on a case by case basis	11:23
spoleeba	inode0, feel free to cite an opposing precedent	11:23
inode0	yes, you are making a discrimination by classifying a package as content rather than as code and applying different rules to it	11:23
spoleeba	inode0, you are attempting to desciminate by making OVM a special case	11:23
spoleeba	inode0, i am not saying its content	11:23
inode0	i haven't even stated a position on ovm	11:23
spoleeba	inode0, i consistently stated that I view ovm as code	11:23
inode0	ok, if ovm is code that it should be accepted by the guidelines, right?	11:24
spoleeba	inode0, no	11:24
spoleeba	inode0, for the same reasons that java was not..before we had a java interpreter	11:24
inode0	fesco rejected it because they said it wasn't code but rather it was content and had to meet an extra burden	11:24
spoleeba	inode0, i am not fesco	11:24
EvilBob	inode0: forgive me, the OVM issue is the Chitlesh item, is that correct?	11:25
spoleeba	EvilBob, FEL..yes	11:25
EvilBob	K	11:25
* viking_ice raises hands and asks another one ( not sure if that's a micro one as well ) Now with the ability to create a "live" cd should'nt Fedora stop officially site with a specific DE ( Now it's Gnome ) and allow all DE to compete on a fair ground and all reference to "Desktop" would strictly be a generic one ( containing a just a list of all the DE's that Fedora offers ) ?		11:25
inode0	this "enhances the OS user experience" requirement is for content, not code	11:25
quaid_moderator	viking_ice: got it	11:25
spoleeba	viking_ice, are you saying the Desktop Spin should be called the Gnome Desktop Spin?	11:26
viking_ice	This basically comes down to Anaconda not auto select for an End user a specific DE but rather ask the end user to choose one of the DE's available if he has not done so already on the DVD ISO	11:26
EvilBob	quaid_moderator: add to my FUDcon query, WHat funding is available if the community got something arranged in the area.	11:27
nirik	skvidal: it would be: "we plan to release details in a press conference at 2009-xx-xx and will take questions then"	11:27
nirik	but I understand not having that. I think it's important to ask.	11:28
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: got it	11:28
* quaid_moderator notes that is a question probably for the NA Ambassador group, ke4qqq might have a clue what Sep. looks like for budget		11:29
ke4qqq	EvilBob thus far we have paid for FADs out of FAMNA's budget	11:29
inode0	we don't really fund FUDcons if that is what the question it	11:30
ke4qqq	propose one, tell us how much you need - we'll try and get it for you provided CommArch give us the money	11:30
ke4qqq	no but we are funding FAD @ SCALE and LFNW	11:30
nirik	skvidal: I think I would like to hear "it was a failure of: people or packages or process" and I would love to hear that the people or packages or process were fixed both for fedora and anyone using the fedora distro.	11:30
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: it could be a shadow conference, but that would require people to be at the Summit	11:30
* inode0 thought EvilBob was still talking about FUDcons		11:30
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: the venue is going to be the hardest part, I reckon	11:30
EvilBob	ke4qqq: see that is the God Damned problem	11:30
EvilBob	ke4qqq: there are NO events to piggy back on any where near here	11:31
ke4qqq	you don't need to - someone picked those - we are talking about one at clemson that is attached to nothing	11:31
viking_ice	spoleeba: Well yes in Gnome case it would be Gnome Desktop Spin and so for "$DENAME Desktop Spin" and the Desktop wiki page would be a generic desktop page ( just contain list of all the DE that are available in Fedora and sub pages of those DE would be there as in Desktop/Gnome Desktop/XFCE etc.. )	11:31
ke4qqq	the issue is - who can you get to come, what can you get accomplished, and how much will it cost.	11:32
EvilBob	ke4qqq: and I am not really interested in a FAD as I understand what a FAD is	11:32
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: talk with lcafiero about Lindependence	11:32
spoleeba	EvilBob, where is here?	11:32
* nirik thanks the board and skvidal.		11:32
quaid_moderator	that is good for tapping the wider distro community	11:32
EvilBob	you could hold a FAD in my townhouse complex and I would not bother to go	11:32
* mmcgrath admits he has been working on that.		11:33
inode0	EvilBob: FAD may mean something different now than what you are thinking, maybe not	11:33
spoleeba	EvilBob, I'm going to be in Ind for a NSF workshop at the end of March... a workshop on sustainable cyber infrastructure.. its a perfect tie in for a Fedora infrastructure FAD	11:33
EvilBob	ke4qqq: I have nothing to do with Ambassadors, ambassador involvement for me in the past has been a major waste of time	11:33
quaid_moderator	Fedora Activity Day == FAD	11:33
quaid_moderator	it _used_ to be Ambassador Day	11:34
ke4qqq	it's not necessary related to Ambassador - the one at scale is packaging and docs iirc.	11:34
ke4qqq	no ambassador involvment except the ambassadors present are involved in other aspects and we provided some funding	11:34
viking_ice	spoleeba: This allows for the current ones and new ones that might emerge later to compete against each other on a fair ground as in they them self are responsible to market them self the best DE to use to the end user then the end user choose himself what to use ( based on the live cd experience he got )	11:34
EvilBob	quaid_moderator: thank you for the clarification, still does not make sense to me that one has to ask the FASCo for funding in that case	11:34
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: FAMSCo handles the purse strings for Community Architecture	11:35
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: also, if you haven't been paying attention, we have a ... uniquely American NA Ambassador regional crew	11:35
poelcat	quaid_moderator: Q: What key strategic initiatives is the board pursuing for 2009?	11:35
* EvilBob just shakes his head		11:35
quaid_moderator	inode0, ke4qqq, herlo, lcafiero ... darn, who am I forgetting?	11:35
quaid_moderator	bpowell ...	11:35
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: wtf do you want to ask then?	11:35
EvilBob	Nothing	11:36
EvilBob	forget I asked anythign	11:36
quaid_moderator	roger	11:36
viking_ice	quaid_moderator: Did you pick up my question regarding the "Official Desktop" ( as in there would be none )	11:38
quaid_moderator	viking_ice: yes, got it	11:39
quaid_moderator	that's the last question in my queue, btw	11:39
JKnife	I think just think a tv ad of college students saying stuff like "I use fedora because I support sharing of infromation" then at the end show a fedora logo	11:39
ke4qqq	poelcat's question isn't in your queue quaid_moderator?	11:39
ke4qqq	JKnife: produce one - tv stations have to air public service announcements for free.... :)	11:40
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, speaking of contributors...... here's my question... have we identified target groups to seek out as contributors? Or are we content with a walkin only approach to recruitment?	11:41
viking_ice	Well there seem to be lack in of future vision as in as I see it Fedora needs focuse more on the end user ( instead of focusing mainly on contributes ) because the more Fedora is exposed and use the more likely will more maintainers ( or a person that grows up to be a maintainer ) want to join	11:41
quaid_moderator	ke4qqq: thx, looking ...	11:42
quaid_moderator	poelcat: got it	11:42
quaid_moderator	Sparks_Work: got it	11:42
quaid_moderator	sorry , that was for spoleeba	11:42
EvilBob	thanks F13	11:42
JKnife	ke4qqq: uhmm... I could drive upto UNC if I had a video camera :P	11:42
ke4qqq	JKnife: you don't have to do all the work, just lead the effort - others will get involved - though I think it might be more interesting to tap actual contributors rather than just random students.	11:44
EvilBob	Would FAD attendees at the Summit have to pay the couple months wages to be there?	11:44
herlo	EvilBob: no, we didn't have to pay to be at FUDCon	11:44
JKnife	ke4qqq: ohh i have a idea.. have people submit videos to say youtube, we download them and make the video :)	11:44
herlo	EvilBob: I don't know if that goes for the actual RH SUmmit events	11:44
quaid_moderator	herlo: Fedora track was free to FUDCon attendees, but ... whatever :)	11:45
ke4qqq	JKnife: you'd need higher quality, but you should toss the idea up on the f-marketing list	11:45
quaid_moderator	herlo: the key is, it was physically possible to be in the same building, but Fedora paid through the nose for the space aiui	11:45
herlo	quaid_moderator: yeah, that was kind of my point. I didn't know for sure on that part though because I didn't get to go to the RH Summit :(	11:45
* quaid_moderator was a like a one-armed wallpaper hanger at that event		11:45
EvilBob	herlo: so it was a non-answer, thanks for sharing however	11:46
herlo	quaid_moderator: yeah, RH Summit seems like a good spot for the FAD format	11:46
herlo	EvilBob: anytime	11:47
* herlo did get the sarcasm :)		11:47
JKnife	ke4qqq: youtube now has high quality videos... normal youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL_ZjJgbDmc watch about 10secs then click on "watch in high quality" on the bottom right of the video	11:47
quaid_moderator	herlo: I'm going to submit a few talk ideas, see if I can get to go anyway, so I'll pitch in on a FAD	11:47
herlo	:) quaid_moderator good call	11:48
EvilBob	quaid_moderator: I have a few ideas also	11:48
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: sweet	11:48
* inode0 thinks separate FADs would be better		11:48
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: if you want to collaborate or just get a readover from someone, ping me	11:48
inode0	why tie them up in a circus?	11:48
quaid_moderator	I worked on the committee last year so have seen a few proposals now	11:48
herlo	inode0: we should try them both ways and see which works best and gets the most contributors to a FAD	11:49
EvilBob	quaid_moderator: that was one thing that was super in 2007 we did not have anything structured for Fedora stuff but we got a lot of things done being able to meet and work out things,	11:49
herlo	+1 glezos, that is pretty much what we're shooting for at the SCaLE FAD :)	11:49
EvilBob	quaid_moderator: that is where we laid out the May/Oct release target	11:50
quaid_moderator	glezos: yeah, I proposed that to mmcgrath for Infra, since that would work there ... I am going to be trying something like that at the SCaLE FAD	11:50
glezos	herlo: it's successful, productive and VERY cost effective. Lots of groups of people together. Minimize travel and lodging costs.	11:50
herlo	glezos: yes, and they successfully do it at PyCon and other conferences all the time	11:52
* viking_ice answers skvidal: Just alone the whole i586 should be enough for justifying the their being or an updated GA existance		11:52
viking_ice	the whole i586 incident	11:52
EvilBob	mdomsch: and we will keep doing it until the Board tells us we can't, and in that case we will become something else	11:52
quaid_moderator	EvilBob: I gave a magazine a Unity spin, too; darn handy	11:53
herlo	stickster: (in f-board), we did hand out Unity discs, but I'd like them to become more official and thus want to press them if it can be blessed by the board.	11:53
* quaid_moderator thinks with this question we'll never get to the others, but still has them in queue		11:55
ke4qqq	herlo: press?	11:55
herlo	ke4qqq: yes	11:55
* viking_ice answers bandwith question is it fair to enduser to download first the official dvd iso then having to update it with x GB instead of just download an updated dvd ISO		11:55
herlo	ke4qqq: as opposed to burn and distribute	11:55
ke4qqq	wow	11:55
quaid_moderator	I have one from viking_ice, poelcat, and spoleeba	11:55
herlo	ke4qqq: it would be something we could do with the 2nd quarter funds	11:56
herlo	ke4qqq: let me clarify that	11:56
herlo	2nd quarter after a release	11:56
ke4qqq	so if they produce a single respin we only have three months to hand it out	11:56
EvilBob	herlo: remember the Re-Spins of Fedora that Unity produces are released under the 3b section of the GPLv2 also so you as an ambassador have no worries about needing to have source available	11:56
inode0	you do real cowsay contents into perl	11:56
herlo	EvilBob: k	11:56
inode0	read	11:56
ke4qqq	EvilBob: Board says otherwise	11:56
EvilBob	ke4qqq: what does the board have to say about what I do?	11:57
EvilBob	ke4qqq: NOTHING	11:57
herlo	ahh, I should ping FESCO it seems if we ant to go that direction	11:57
ke4qqq	EvilBob: board set policy that Ambassadors must have source on hand and able to burn if handing out discs at an event	11:57
spoleeba	ke4qqq, Unity is free to rely on that clause for the stuff they distribute	11:57
inode0	nice	11:57
EvilBob	ke4qqq: you need to read the GPL	11:57
herlo	quaid_moderator: sounds like you should get those guys back on track :) darn that inode0	11:58
spoleeba	ke4qqq, i do not think the Board decision was about Unity respins..it was about Fedora project media	11:58
ke4qqq	right	11:58
ke4qqq	but we are talking about burning unity media and handing it out at a fedora booth	11:59
EvilBob	ke4qqq: the Re-Spins that Unity Produces are beyond the control of the board	11:59
ke4qqq	I don't dispute that, but the behavior of Ambassadors representing fedora at a fedora sponsored both isn't	11:59
EvilBob	ke4qqq: and Unity has the guts to keep sources around for 3 years	11:59
spoleeba	ke4qqq, the Ambassadors can choice to apply the same policy to Unity respins	11:59
ke4qqq	s/both/booth	12:00
EvilBob	ke4qqq: and here goes more politics with the Ambassadors that their FiASCo has to decide for them	12:00
ke4qqq	that came down from the Fedora Board, not famsco	12:01
spoleeba	ke4qqq, again i do not belive the Board said anything about Unity respins	12:01
JKnife	quaid_moderator: Why Linux for Fedora and not, lets say *BSD or minix3?	12:01
ke4qqq	they didn't specify anything - they said source for the media we hand out	12:01
inode0	the board just said things worked the other way!	12:01
spoleeba	ke4qqq, the issue is the fact that Fedora as a project makes no garuntee or even implies that source will be available long enough for that clause to be effective	12:03
EvilBob	ke4qqq: again, please read the GPL	12:03
herlo	EvilBob: the GPL doesn't matter in a case where we go further than it states	12:03
ke4qqq	EvilBob: I am not sating that it violates the gpl	12:03
spoleeba	ke4qqq, if you trust Unity says they will keep the sources around..and you trust them to keep the sources around...then the Unity spins are a completely different situation	12:03
EvilBob	ke4qqq: Fedora Unity releases Re-Spins that the Board has NO control over	12:03
ke4qqq	I am not saying that the board has any control over unity or would want to.	12:04
EvilBob	ke4qqq: the only control they have is our use of the fedora-release package	12:04
spoleeba	ke4qqq, the reasoning for the Board guidance..is to protect amabassadors from a situation where they are liable...because we do not keep the sources around long enough for the clause to be invoked	12:04
spoleeba	ke4qqq, you can choose to apply the same policy to Unity spins...but dont suggest that the Board made any ruling at all about them	12:05
EvilBob	ke4qqq: I am telling you that the Unity Project can release the Re-Spins under a different clause of the GPL than Fedora Project may	12:05
ke4qqq	I make no such pretense	12:05
inode0	EvilBob: as just a guy who occasionally distributes media to others I feel an obligation to make source media available in the same manner if desired - that isn't anything unusual	12:05
ke4qqq	spoleeba: I am talking about if Fedora presses media, and has Ambassadors handing it out at events sponsored by Fedora - the policy as it sits now is that media we distribute must have source available to burn or already burned - not that it's a requirement of the GPL, but rather a requirement put upon ourselves. not an obligation to Unity or anything else.	12:07
spoleeba	ke4qqq, Fedora media != Unity media	12:07
ke4qqq	we were just talking about asking fesco to bless unity release as fedora release	12:07
spoleeba	ke4qqq, you are free to choose to require the same policy...but you implied it was Board guidance that people use that policy for all media..which is not the case	12:08
inode0	I think everyone understands that spoleeba	12:08
ke4qqq	not 20 minutes ago	12:08
ke4qqq	spoleeba: I'll dig it up, but iirc, it stated any media we distributed	12:08
EvilBob	ke4qqq: I do not believe that Unity has asked or has interest in such a relationship, as one of the founders I know I do not.	12:09
inode0	when thinking about doing this in the freemedia program we planned to include requests for unity source	12:09
viking_ice	Is the Desktop SIG a Gnome Desktop SIG or is that SIG made up of members from other *DE SIG's	12:09
ke4qqq	it's been discussed on the mailing lists, irc, and even here. herlo just brought up pressing the media	12:09
herlo	yeah, I sure did :) and I was pointed at FESCO.	12:10
spoleeba	ke4qqq, im pretty sure Unity media never came up in Board discussions over that policy	12:10
EvilBob	ke4qqq: that however would be up to an individual if they want to get media bless that is created from the iso images that Unity creates	12:10
spoleeba	ke4qqq, the word 'all' still can be contextualized to mean 'all Fedora spins'	12:10
poelcat	quaid_moderator: to caillon: the fedora board is often compared to corporate boards at publicly traded companies so I was wondering what goals and objectives the fedora board is setting and how they plan to lead fedora forward	12:11
EvilBob	ke4qqq: has nothing to do with Unity at this point	12:11
ke4qqq	EvilBob: true	12:11
ke4qqq	spoleeba: could be	12:11
spoleeba	ke4qqq, im pretty sure i was in the board discussion	12:11
EvilBob	ke4qqq: Unity is separate from the Fedora Project for several reasons that go well beyond this one issue	12:12
quaid_moderator	poelcat: my side opinion is that being a "bottom up" organization, it's not really comparable to a public board for a public corp	12:12
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, its comparable to a non-profit board	12:12
poelcat	you can't have it both ways :)	12:12
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: not sure if I agree, but that's just me	12:12
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, have you ever been on the board for a local social services org..like a soup kitchen.. or a community theature?	12:12
quaid_moderator	it's not clear to me that Fedora's strategy is Board set or approved, nor if it should be.	12:13
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: not personally, but I'm a NPO brat -- my mom has been working at NPOs for 30 years, been on the board of several, etc.	12:13
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: I won't dispute that it acts like an NPO board at times, but I'm not sure that is the right way.	12:14
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, you should probablyt have a sit down with her and talk about common problems witn non-profits when they hit the 5 year mark	12:14
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, i think there is a crap load of parallels	12:14
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: ok	12:14
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, which means a crap load of solution-ineering	12:14
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, that would apply to our little baby	12:15
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: not saying they aren't comparable, but that I'm careful about thinking they are interchangeable	12:15
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, and im saying..there are some common growth pains...and ways to deal with them..that we aren't even looking at	12:16
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: do you have interest in forming up a SIG-of-sorts to work on that problem? generate a list of "top 10 shit we should be doing"?	12:17
inode0	Question: could the board collect some questions in advance of these meetings so more thought could be given to them before the board discusses them?	12:17
quaid_moderator	heck, just a few wiki pages would be a good starting point	12:17
quaid_moderator	inode0: got it	12:17
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, after you talk to your mom..and if the light bulb goes on for you and she confirms what i just said..sure	12:18
inode0	or would they be interested in giving questions more thought before discussing them in public I guess?	12:18
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: don't misunderstand me	12:19
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: my thinking is grounded in reality; I've been a volunteer for 30 years, too	12:19
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: it is that reality experience ... I'm asking, _should_ the Fedora Board be run and comparable to an NPO board?	12:19
quaid_moderator	because I think maybe not, and maybe it is not comparable in important ways.	12:19
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, id settle for one important way	12:20
viking_ice	ups wrong channel.. :(	12:20
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: so that is different than, "What can Fedora learn from the common experiences of volunteer-run organizations at this point in our history."	12:20
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: funding is one way ... the definition of an NPO requires a whole slew of stuff to be a 501 C(3)	12:22
herlo	as a follow up to the join-fedora page comment in public, there have been many comments in my daily work to improve that.	12:22
herlo	but nobody has taken it on	12:22
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: many NPO volunteers are doing it in their spare time and unrelated to $dayjob, the same cannot be said of FLOSS communities.	12:22
herlo	one thought would be to get the newly formed fedora-mentors-list off and running and improving the mentoring in each of these areas...	12:23
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, how many of our contributors are spare timers?	12:23
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, i dont think we know	12:23
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: but we do know about NPOs	12:23
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, but if you want to say thats a mismatch..youd have to be able to see we dont have enough spare timers	12:24
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: I think the clear point is, the Board is surrounding a group of volunteers who have a much wider and varied source than an NPO, where work volunteers do can be intimately tied to their $dayjob	12:27
quaid_moderator	even when corporations send people out to do community work	12:27
quaid_moderator	it's just not ever for the business interest	12:27
quaid_moderator	where I can assure you RHT seeds Fedora money specifically because it is good business. :)	12:27
spoleeba	quaid_moderator, am i talking about RHT seeded resources?	12:34
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: no red herrings, of course RHT is just an example of a corporate community member.	12:34
quaid_moderator	there are hundreds of similar examples in Fedora today.	12:34
quaid_moderator	spoleeba: note that it only takes one difference between an NPO board/situation and the Fedora Board/situation for what I said to be true.	12:35
quaid_moderator	</meeting>	12:39

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