From Fedora Project Wiki
(Redirected from Classroom/KDE4forKDE3Users)
Fedora Classroom - KDE4 for KDE3 Users - Rex Dieter and Kevin Kofler - Saturday, December 6, 2008
| -!- nirik changed the topic of #fedora-classroom to: Fedora IRC Classroom - KDE4 for KDE3 users with Kevin Kofler and Rex Dieter ( Kevin_Kofler and rdieter ). See Communicate/IRC/Classroom for schedule and more information. | 14:45 | |
| rdieter | we've got blah blah general stuff to talk about too, but I'd rather cover what *you* want. | 14:45 |
|---|---|---|
| rdieter | so, let's take a few minutes to do just that. any takers? | 14:45 |
| * LukasT patiently waiting for blah-blah | 14:45 | |
| rdieter | dont' be shy. If we were in a real classroom, I'd make all you folks in the back row, come sit in the front. :) | 14:46 |
| * herlo wants to understand the biggest differences between KDE3 & KDE4 | 14:46 | |
| * nirik uses digikam and akregator here... new digkam seems to have issues. ;( | 14:46 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | I suggest we start with the most commonly-asked question: "What happened to my desktop icons?" :-) | 14:47 |
| * zcat wants to know a fuzzy guestimate on feature parity between kde3 & 4. they're slowlying popping back into existence (yay tabs. yay treeview! :) | 14:47 | |
| rdieter | nod | 14:48 |
| rdieter | zcat: what specific features did you have in mind? | 14:48 |
| zcat | the problem is that i've forgotten many of the features i couldn't live without :) | 14:48 |
| * LukasT wants to know if it is possible to have just one main menu in panel for every application (it was possible in KDE3, I did not used it but friend of mine do) | 14:48 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | LukasT: You mean the Mac-like menubar? | 14:49 |
| LukasT | Kevin_Kofler: yep | 14:49 |
| Kevin_Kofler | There was some work on implementing that, I'm not sure what happened of it unfortunately. :-( | 14:49 |
| rdieter | ie, add app shortcuts to panel? | 14:49 |
| Kevin_Kofler | rdieter: No, the Mac-style "menu bar at the top of the screen, outside of the window". | 14:50 |
| LukasT | nah... Main menu of any app is in panel | 14:50 |
| LukasT | exactly ^^ | 14:50 |
| rdieter | oh, funky, never seen/used that one before. | 14:50 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE 3 had that option, I've read about plans to implement it in KDE 4, but I haven't read anything new about it for a while. | 14:50 |
| rdieter | yeah, this highlights some of the major reworking from kde3 -> kde4. kde3 as a platform has been around for a *long* time. | 14:51 |
| LukasT | ok, so news about it right? | 14:51 |
| rdieter | and over time, accumulated many many quirks, features, etc... many were used a lot, many... not so much. | 14:51 |
| LukasT | no news.. | 14:51 |
| rdieter | In short, not every one of these has been worked on to be in kde4, and many may well never be included or ported. | 14:52 |
| rdieter | most of the good ones either already are in KDE4, or are actively being worked on in one form or another. | 14:52 |
| rdieter | the downside is that there's no authortive source to track every once-existing KDE3 feature and it's KDE4 development. | 14:53 |
| zcat | rdieter, some very visible 'problems' with kde4, to me: screensaver+powersaver still doesn't powersave; powersave alone works, keyboard shortcuts don't mirror gnome ootb anymore (ctrl-alt-arrow keys workspace switching, ctrl-alt-d to show desktop, xf86calculator mapped to kcalc oob, etc), ... drawing a blank. | 14:54 |
| zcat | superficial | 14:54 |
| rdieter | The aim for the KDE4 platform is to make it powerful and flexible enough to be able to do all those things. | 14:55 |
| rdieter | the oft-misunderstood plasma is the posterchild of that. | 14:55 |
| Kevin_Kofler | http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/base/plasma/applets/menubar/ | 14:55 |
| Kevin_Kofler | This is the code for the Mac-style menubar. | 14:55 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Unfortunately not much happened in the last 7 months. :-( | 14:55 |
| rdieter | KDE4, in using many new technologies, and also good at exposing bugs lower in the tech stack, highlights include namely: X drivers (argb, Xrender, opengl related issues) | 14:56 |
| killefiz | what is the state of kde in rawhide at the moment? Will upgrading my test-machine to rawhide get me a working kde 4.2beta currently? | 14:56 |
| rdieter | zcat: for example, I've seen/heard reports about powersave issues, but I can't personally reproduce that on my boxes | 14:57 |
| rdieter | killefiz: good question | 14:57 |
| Kevin_Kofler | How is keyboard shortcuts not mirroring GNOME an issue? | 14:57 |
| Kevin_Kofler | KDE 4 wants to be better than GNOME, not copy it. ;-) | 14:57 |
| rdieter | killefiz: best advice: rawhide eatss babies, and this early in the release cycle (right after f10 release), is not something I would recommend for general use, unless you really know what you're doing, and have no qualms about re-installing. | 14:58 |
| CD1KDE | KDE 4 is already better than GNOME :-) | 14:58 |
| Kevin_Kofler | rdieter: What about kde-redhat unstable? Can you kick off some 4.2 Beta 1 builds there? We've had several people asking for it in #fedora-kde already. | 14:59 |
| rdieter | 4.2beta is, for the most part, in rawhide now. We've plans to rebuild these for availabilty for releases (unofficially) at some point soon: kde-redhat unstable repos, unofficial (unbranded) F10 livecd's, etc. | 14:59 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Actually all the core parts are now in, only extragear is still left to update. | 14:59 |
| rdieter | wrt to keyboard shortcuts, one example of "mirroring gnome" was to add cntl-alt arrow shortcuts to move between virtual desktoips | 15:00 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And everything using Plasma (kde-plasma-*, compiz-kde) has been rebuilt for the new Plasma API/ABI. | 15:00 |
| Beineri | or ported | 15:01 |
| rdieter | and more can be added, but as we (kde-sig) generally don't follow/use gnome, we're often not privy to what shortcuts to add to help, feedback, bugs welcome in that regard. | 15:01 |
| LukasT | How do you choose what will be backported? | 15:01 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Beineri: Yes, they all needed a small patch. | 15:01 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Except for Lancelot which got replaced by the version in kdeplasma-addons-4.1.80 altogether. | 15:02 |
| CD1KDE | I've heard Kopete has had a great improvement on KDE 4.2. what kind of improvements are they? | 15:02 |
| rdieter | CD1KDE: I'm aware of at least: better/rewritten msn support | 15:03 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Also Sametime support (through meanwhile) is available again. | 15:03 |
| LukasT | Are there any software to migrate data from GNOME Desktop to KDE Desktop ? Like history of pidgin to kopete? Or Accounts from Thunderbird to KMail? | 15:03 |
| CD1KDE | rdieter: thanks | 15:03 |
| Kevin_Kofler | We don't have the new M$N/WLM backend yet though, we need libmsn packaged. | 15:03 |
| Kevin_Kofler | We need that quickly, right now Kopete in Rawhide has no M$N support at all. | 15:04 |
| rdieter | LukasT: kmail has import support for varius things (mail in standard formats, addressbooks) | 15:04 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Not accounts though, I think. | 15:05 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Some stuff can be imported, but not all. | 15:05 |
| Kevin_Kofler | The accounts probably have to be configured again. | 15:05 |
| jreznik | LukasT: one of my students is working on bachelor thesis - KDE migration guide, so it can be expected in next few month | 15:05 |
| rdieter | jreznik: nice | 15:05 |
| LukasT | nice jreznik :) | 15:05 |
| rdieter | while speaking of resources, if you don't know: http://userbase.kde.org/ is an excellent one (wki'zed for your pleasure, so contributions welcome) | 15:06 |
| jreznik | the idea is to allow migrate from pidgin, firefox etc + storing/restoring (not only) KDE settings | 15:06 |
| rdieter | on the developer-side, http://techbase.kde.org/ | 15:06 |
| LukasT | Red Hat seems to be nice about KDE. I read some abstracts of thesis from RedHat Brno and they nicely support KDE :) | 15:06 |
| * rdieter pats jreznik, ltinkl on the back. | 15:07 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | Still, their "Desktop Team" is essentially all GNOME developers. | 15:08 |
| rdieter | nod, call a spade a spade and call it the "Gnome team", while we're at it: Desktop spin -> gnome spin, but that's a debate topic for another time and place. :) | 15:09 |
| jreznik | LukasT: we are now 1.5 developers here in Brno, I'm paid for s-c-tools mainly and thesis are way how to support KDE more | 15:09 |
| jreznik | KDE is not part of Desktop team in Red Hat, it's part of Base OS | 15:10 |
| rdieter | Let me take a few moments to mention our Fedora KDE-SIG, what it is, who we are, what we do, how you too can get involved. | 15:10 |
| rdieter | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE | 15:10 |
| Kevin_Kofler | jreznik: Well, it makes sense, KDE is part of the basics, GNOME is an optional add-on. :-p | 15:10 |
| rdieter | We're a group of fedora contributors interested basically in making kde (on fedora) better. | 15:11 |
| LukasT | jreznik: nice :) I thought about doing diploma for Red Hat, I liked the abstract about collaborative editing in KOffice, but I decided to continue on my work from Google Summer Of Code -- so I will work on brushes in KOffice/Krita | 15:11 |
| rdieter | That includes anything and everything related to that: packaging, documentation, outreach (amassador-type stuff), debugging, triage, plus anything else you can think of. | 15:12 |
| rdieter | many of us are in #fedora-kde a lot, so you're all welcome, invited to stop by, if you've got anything on your mind. | 15:13 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And of course you're invited to join if you want to help. :-) | 15:13 |
| Kevin_Kofler | A lot of us are community volunteers. | 15:13 |
| jreznik | LukasT: I think it's not a problem to do it for RH too, we are still looking for developers and this is nice way to hire best associates | 15:13 |
| LukasT | jreznik: what would you advice me to do ? | 15:14 |
| rdieter | We also conduct weekly meetings too, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings , so you know a good time to catch us when we're all watching and in one place. :) | 15:14 |
| LukasT | rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: How many hours do you spend working on KDE in Fedora ? | 15:15 |
| LukasT | rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: what is your motivation? | 15:15 |
| rdieter | doing something you love, doesn't really count as work, does it? :) oh, hard-core *work*, maybe 10-20 hrs /week. | 15:16 |
| jreznik | LukasT: PM me to not to mess this channel :) | 15:16 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Well, at first I got started because I needed KDE 4 libraries to start porting KTIGCC (my TIGCC IDE for KDE) to KDE 4. | 15:16 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But now I find working on Fedora KDE packages more interesting than working on KTIGCC itself. :-) | 15:16 |
| rdieter | for my fedora/kde history/background, here's a good read <plug type=shameless>http://dot.kde.org/1136226311/</plug> | 15:17 |
| Kevin_Kofler | It's also nice when I can fix the bugs which annoy me the most. :-) | 15:17 |
| Kevin_Kofler | For example I fixed "stop animations" in Konqueror. | 15:17 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And we're all decisive when it comes from preventing Fedora from degrading into a GNOME-only distribution. | 15:19 |
| rdieter | otherwise, we're very much a fedora/rhel linux shop @ work, so much of what I do, overlaps and counts as part of my paid gig. | 15:19 |
| Kevin_Kofler | For example, KDM almost became mostly useless in Fedora 7 due to missing ConsoleKit support. I fixed it. | 15:20 |
| rdieter | and the "fix" is (finally) upstream now too. yay. | 15:20 |
| rdieter | got slow a bit, Kevin_Kofler, would you please give an overview of the "desktop icon, folderview plasma applet"? | 15:23 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Yes, I was about to do that. :-) | 15:23 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So basically KDE 4.1 supports 2 types of desktop icons: | 15:24 |
| Kevin_Kofler | 1. The quick hack from KDE 4.0: | 15:24 |
| Kevin_Kofler | * each icon is a plasmoid (Plasma applet/widget) | 15:24 |
| Kevin_Kofler | * icons are not synchronized with the file system. In particular, deleting the icon won't touch the files, and the opposite doesn't always happen either, so you have to delete things twice | 15:25 |
| Kevin_Kofler | so this is obviously not the ideal solution. Thus in 4.1, there's a new solution: | 15:25 |
| Kevin_Kofler | 2. The FolderView plasmoid. | 15:25 |
| Kevin_Kofler | This is a container (translucent in most Plasma themes) which can display the contents of a folder. | 15:26 |
| Kevin_Kofler | By default this is the desktop folder. | 15:26 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But you can make it display any folder, and also have multiple folder views. | 15:26 |
| Kevin_Kofler | And the contents are automatically kept in sync with the actual contents of the folder. | 15:27 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So this is more reliable, especially if you want to use it for actual files, not just shortcuts. | 15:27 |
| Kevin_Kofler | In KDE 4.2, there will be some more FolderView features: | 15:27 |
| Kevin_Kofler | * the FolderView will actually remember icon positions across sessions (so don't waste your time moving the icons around inside your folder view in 4.1, it just won't work yet) | 15:28 |
| Kevin_Kofler | * it will be possible to configure your desktop to display only the folder view on the desktop folder, none of the fancy plasmoid stuff, so with that option it'll look just like KDE 3 | 15:28 |
| Kevin_Kofler | So are there any questions about this? Like "how do I add a folder view" or anything like that? | 15:29 |
| Beineri | only? wrong ;-), you can have a folder view (or other plasmoids) over folder view containment | 15:29 |
| Beineri | actually confuses users that they get their files displayed twice once the switch containment :-) | 15:30 |
| Beineri | (without removing default folder view plasmoid manually) | 15:30 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Right, the folder view can also double as a containment. | 15:30 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Even if it isn't really what it is for. | 15:30 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I wonder if something should be done to automatically remove or hide the default folder view if the folder view is selected as the containment. | 15:31 |
| Beineri | [x] send patch :-) | 15:32 |
| rdieter | ok, this line of discussion is starting to lose me too, much less our audience. :) How about we talk about the future now? kde-4.2/f-11 type stuff? | 15:32 |
| LukasT | kde 4.2 wil be in fc10? | 15:33 |
| Kevin_Kofler | The plan is to push it to F10, probably F9 too. | 15:33 |
| rdieter | yes, just as we worked hard to get a 4.0 -> 4.1 upgrade out their for F-9, we'll do the same wrt 4.1->4.2 too. | 15:33 |
| Kevin_Kofler | kdepim makes me nervous, the other stuff should be fairly safe to upgrade. | 15:34 |
| rdieter | with early testing, sneak-peaks via unofficial avenues such as kde-redhat/unstable, f-10-based-kde42 livecd's | 15:34 |
| Kevin_Kofler | I see 2 problems with kdepim: the migration to Akonadi and KitchenSync now needing a newer libopensync snapshot than what we have in F10. | 15:35 |
| * rdieter needs more time to play with opensuse buildservice too, which could be used for some/a-lot of this fun too. | 15:35 | |
| Kevin_Kofler | F9 will stay on kdepim 3.5 in any case. | 15:35 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But F10 is the problem. | 15:35 |
| rdieter | Kevin_Kofler: fwiw, looks like kitchensync/opensync isn't making 4.2 | 15:35 |
| Kevin_Kofler | We can ship a libopensync snapshot and reenable KitchenSync. | 15:36 |
| Kevin_Kofler | We've been shipping an even more experimental snapshot in F8/F9/F10. | 15:36 |
| Beineri | rdieter: I heard "Fedora" may be interested in using buildservice itself :-)... | 15:37 |
| jreznik | OpenSUSE buildservice is very nice build system | 15:38 |
| rdieter | Beineri: would be fabulous calaboration, I'd welcome working together on something like that. | 15:38 |
| rdieter | kudos. | 15:39 |
| rdieter | anyway, we're running short on time, any last thoughts, comments, questions, before we end ? | 15:39 |
| Don_Miguel | Any idea when we might get to play with "f-10-based-kde42 livecd" | 15:41 |
| rdieter | Don_Miguel: no eta, when it's ready. Blockers include: getting stuff into rawhide (mostly done), doing the backport builds (todo), spining a cd (todo). | 15:41 |
| rdieter | Don_Miguel: ok, *rough* eta, gimme a ~1 week, if you don't hear, see anything by then, holler. I'll to my best to move my arse faster. | 15:42 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Hmmm, one more thing which needs work for Rawhide: kde-l10n. | 15:42 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Than's 4.1.80 build failed, so we still have 4.1.3 sitting there. | 15:42 |
| Don_Miguel | rdieter, <grin> Thanks ! | 15:43 |
| Kevin_Kofler | But we don't need kde-l10n to spin a live CD. :-) | 15:43 |
| rdieter | Before parting, looks like aseigo will be conducting a live videocast soon today, I'd encourage folks to watch. http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/12/video-cast-site.htm | 15:43 |
| icarus-c | argh... due to a technical problem, i can just attend the early part of today classroom /3\ | 15:43 |
| icarus-c | does anyone got a log for it? | 15:43 |
| herlo | icarus-c: yes, it's being logged | 15:44 |
| rdieter | icarus-c: i'm fairly certain, logs for all these sessions will be posted soon somewhere. | 15:44 |
| * herlo has already uploaded the logs for the last two sessions | 15:44 | |
| Don_Miguel | on the classroom page with the scedule ... | 15:44 |
| icarus-c | yea i think i've read that toom but where.. | 15:44 |
| * icarus-c is going to have a look | 15:44 | |
| -!- nirik changed the topic of #fedora-classroom to: Fedora IRC Classroom - Class break. Next class starting at 16:00UTC. See Communicate/IRC/Classroom for schedule and more information. | 15:45 | |
| rdieter | thanks all. | 15:45 |
| @nirik | thanks Kevin_Kofler and rdieter ! | 15:45 |
| icarus-c | got that | 15:45 |
| Kevin_Kofler | You're welcome. :-) | 15:45 |
| icarus-c | thanks | 15:45 |
| SSlater | thanks | 15:45 |
| * rdieter thanks Beineri too | 15:46 | |
| Don_Miguel | Many THanks ! | 15:46 |
| Beineri | rdieter: for what? :-) | 15:46 |
| mj0vy | thank you rdieter and Kevin_Kofler | 15:46 |
| rdieter | Beineri: for coming, chiming in a couple times. | 15:46 |
| * Don_Miguel thinks Beineri volunteered to help too ! | 15:46 | |
| John5342 | exit | 15:47 |
| John5342 | oops | 15:47 |
| herlo | rdieter: the link you gave for the videocast doesn't seem to exist | 15:47 |
| Beineri | Don_Miguel: for? creating kde 4.2 live-cd? almost done ;-) | 15:47 |
| rdieter | http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/12/video-cast-site.html | 15:47 |
| rdieter | looks like final l got trunc'd in copy-n-paste last time | 15:47 |
| Beineri | Don_Miguel: ups, missed the f-10 part, sorry | 15:47 |
| shepherd | thanks guys | 15:48 |
| herlo | rdieter: ahh | 15:48 |
| Kevin_Kofler | Beineri: ;-) | 15:48 |
| herlo | cool, tx | 15:48 |
| * LukasT thanks for answers :) | 15:48 | |
| Don_Miguel | Beineri, :-) | 15:49 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!