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#!html <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /> <title>irclog</title> <link rel="stylesheet" href="irclog.css" /> <meta name="generator" content="irclog2html.py 2.5 by Marius Gedminas" /> <meta name="version" content="2.5 - 2007-01-22" /> </head> <body> <h1>irclog</h1> <table class="irclog"> <tr id="t12:59"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation -- Oct 7, 1700-1800 UTC -=- <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject</a></td><td><a href="#t12:59" class="time">12:59</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster checks agenda on wiki to see if there's any</td><td><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* couf present</td><td><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">John Babich</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">and moi</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">OK, we can keep this short and sweet by sticking to the agenda for now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Does anyone have an objection to me chairing in quaid's absence?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I know he wouldn't. :-D</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster: have at it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">go for it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">OK, for all intents and purposes, I'm using this as a "catch-up" meeting.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I have missed many of the previous ones due to the scheduling conflict with $DAYJOB, for which I apologize</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Water under the bridge.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:03"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation -- Oct 7, 1700-1800 UTC -=- <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject</a> -=- TOPIC: F8 Docs status</td><td><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">we all need some catching up</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">OK, the "core" documentation is still the release notes and the installation guide, both of which I have kept up with fairly well. We are on target for all the translation dates.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We are mournfully absent any updates on other stuff AFAIK though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Does anyone have other docs status? DUG? Anything?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">translation quick start guide has been updated, that's all I know</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">john dropped</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jmbuser: jinx</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:05"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 81 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 80 normal] </td><td><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:05"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser is back</td><td><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster just filled jmbuser in</td><td><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I am trying to boot up F8T3 to perhaps revive the DUG, but am having trouble</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Thia has nothing to do with the drops, BTW</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">sure</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">s / Thia / This /</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:07"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster recommends using some sort of virtualization for doing testing</td><td><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That way you decouple (for the most part) hardware discrepancies from having a test environment available</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: good idea</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: Does QEMU work well for that?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I use VMWare (not a FOSS product) because my office pays for it. You also have KVM/qemu, Xen, and VirtualBox I believe</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yes, it's a bit slow but less so for Linux on Linux IIRC</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I thought with modern KVM and Xen you can get near-hardware speed for a Linux guest running on a Linux host</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm using QEMU for OLPC image and it works fine with my 2GB RAM</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">There you go then</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">anyway, major thank you to stickster for keeping up with our core docs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, I would certainly not object to people jumping in and helping, I don't own them or anything (well, maybe in name only)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: I have a big chunk of time in a few days</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">One way to help is to either watch wiki pages on Docs/Beats/* or subscribe to the relnotes content feed via email to see when changes are made</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Then you can simply port in changes to the XML in CVS. Things are harder when we first capture the content, but if we stay on top of it, incremental changes are very very easy to do, and take only a few minutes a day at most.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: Perhaps we can have a private chat (or public) and you can walk me through a few things</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Absolutely... I will be around for about an hour after the meeting, then gone for several</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: great</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm wondering: stickster what do you find the best: editing text in xml, or wiki?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I confess to not loving the wiki.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:13"><td class="action" colspan="2">* couf thinking about a divide & conqueor idea</td><td><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">For some things it's good, others not so much.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">It's good for contributions, not good for upkeep.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">indeed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Our Plone timeline seems to be stretching out again... Our Plone helper, Jon, decided at some point that he needed Plone 3 for some reason, which dragged in a bunch of other development baggage which is slowing him down AFAICT</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">1/2 of us try to keep xml and wiki synced, you could edit in xml (as I'm not by far a good editor)?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I don't know why he needed it, but I respect his decision so I guess we won't have Plone for some time.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">couf: Actually, the editing is not so hard -- I usually do that on the Wiki where lots of people see the changes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Then I take the diff of changes and apply that to XML in CVS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">It's not really automated, that was what Plone is supposed to solve for us.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144"> or vice versa :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:16"><td class="action" colspan="2">* couf just thinking something to take some load off your back</td><td><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">My load's not superheavy, but it would help if we had other guides really moving forward.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We seriously need a DUG and an AdminGudie</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">*Guide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Whcih brings us to the next topic.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm sticking my neck out for reviving the DUG</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That would be super</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">that leaves AG for me :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That brings us to...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:18"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation -- Oct 7, 1700-1800 UTC -=- <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject</a> -=- TOPIC: Activating New Contributors</td><td><a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:19"><td class="action" colspan="2">* glezos jumps in</td><td><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Please do!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">glezos: Greetings</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Something I've noticed over the last months is that we've developed many disparate task lists and no way to track any of them effectively.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">So many tracking options leads to confusion. I personally believe simplicity makes it easier for a newcomer to master basic project skills.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That's why I prefer to use Bugzilla, since it's what everyone else in the project uses.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">If Fedora as a whole were to switch to something else, I'd do that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">This is just my US $0.02 -- what do you guys think about this issue?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I tend to agree, for stuff in CVS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Is it usable for tracking doc progress?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm willing to give a try</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, that depends on what docs you're talking about.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">wiki drafting is somewhat strange to keep in Bugzilla, seems to be double work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">If a doc is being drafted on the wiki, there's no point in using any bug tracking -- people should just scrawl on the doc on the wiki without permission</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">The point of the community wiki is for people to free and just mess around.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">However, BZ is good for not just CVS doc issue tracking, but also project work tracking too.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ah, important distinction +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">So if there are tasks to be done, they can be tracked there as well, against our "project-tracking" component</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">There's also a generic "docs-requests" component for "I'd like a XXX tutorial"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:26"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster feels like he's lecturing too much for a meeting, would like other people to express their concerns, love, hate, etc... :-)</td><td><a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:27"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser is absorbing words of wisdom :-)</td><td><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the thing is, we're going to have to change a lot of wiki-pages again, which will bring confusion, imo</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">otoh we've doing that for say the last 10 months, so way not :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">change is good - you go first</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser injects wisdom from a Dilbert t-shirt</td><td><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jmbuser: That's a pretty wise and cutting remark</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">so what would we define as project-tracking stuff?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> EvilBob</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">Hi All</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Hi EvilBob!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Hi</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Project tracking, hmmm.... things like the work currently shown on <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks?">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks?</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Some of that needs to be culled.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We've been vigilant in the past about hoarding all these tasks and not forgetting any of them.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">However, almost none of them are being done.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">true that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Here's a suggestion I'm going to throw on the table for you guys to chew up and spit out: Take all tasks not being done and throw them away.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We eliminate all these pages and start fresh in some way that everyone agrees on.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Oh goody, a purge :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">OK, tear it apart ye scurvy dogs!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Should we wait for the meeting to be over?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, I mean, let's tear apart that idea. </td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Assume that idea sucks and that I'm a moron for suggesting it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">(Probability studies show you'd be right, I'm thinking.)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">oh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">So what makes that idea suck?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I second the motion for a clean slate</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the fact that we "know" what tasks we need to do</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">and we might forget a tn</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">s/tn/ton</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jmbuser: Nope, you don't get off that easy :-) You have to rip me a new one!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, prioritize</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">1. Release Notes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">damm, had an answer ready for him :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the real problem here is getting people to understand what the task actually is about</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">couf: So we're not communicating well in terms of explaining how to do something?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">stickster: yeah, my 0.02cts</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yup, I'll pay you US $1 for it too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Oops jmbuser appears to have dropped again</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:40"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 83 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 82 normal] </td><td><a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the place where we put the info isn't important, but more the *how-to* behind it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">couf: So, I'm going to argue with you about this -- not because you're wrong, but to see if there's more we're not exploring</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">sure</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Is a task worth doing in a community project, if no one wants to do it?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">who knows? at any time someone could jump in and get it done, does that mean we should erase the task?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Right, but if they need to know a bunch of other information to perform that task, and that's not documented either, how serious are we about wanting that task done?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Especially since we are the docs project :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">indeed, that means we're defining "this-needs-to-be-done-once" type of tasks but we don't really know how to start it ourselves?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:45"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser won't be doing the minutes</td><td><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">haha!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">in other words, is everyone in docs on the same page?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That's a very good question. The list is generally where we try and argue these things out, but it's not happening of late.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We should maybe take this philosophical argument there where people can chew on it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I might be tempted to argue that "this needs to be done" without anyone knowing how, or by whom, is effectively clogging up our task list.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">that's what I'm thinking too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">If we want to encourage people to join and help, there are two things we should pursue: 1. easier task finding with explanations, and 2. fewer tasks that mean more.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">sorry, 2. fewer, more meaningful tasks..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">So maybe what we need is selective culling</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Find the things that are nebulous and unlikely to pick up steam, and drop them for now.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">OK, this makes good fodder for the list, anyone object to taking it up there/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Did anyone catch what I was saying before or did I get cuf off by my ISP?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">s / cuf / cut /</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jmbuser: We saw 1. Release Notes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">2. IG</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">3. Admin Guide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">4. DUG</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and pretty much stay focused on them for now.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Comments?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">hmm, we've been trying that approach for some time now, is it working?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:50"><td class="action" colspan="2">* couf bites the idea</td><td><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That depends on the value of "working"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Release Notes are pretty amazing</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Community projects succeed when people work on what they enjoy, and are effective at it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">working as in "getting results"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ah right, good point</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Think about how a meeting runs. If everyone spends the whole meeting tossing out a thousand different ideas without ownership or direction, you end up with a crappy meeting</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">If we concentrate on doing what we're doing well, and work on that to make it so good that people want to help, then we can branch out</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I wonder if our zeal made us start tossing around too many ideas to ever get done, and then we try and do them all, and when we fail, we hit ourselves over the head and think we're doing a terrible job</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We need to start encouraging a culture of success in our project. </td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">If that means cutting back on our goals, then we should do that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">definitly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">agreed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Interestingly, quaid and I both got mad at Rahul when he suggested this exactly -- not because what he said was wrong, but in the way he said it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">rephrazing can have a miraculous result</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">and there goes jmbuser</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:55"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 83 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 82 normal] </td><td><a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, I would encourage people to work on our DUG and AdminG then</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Don't fib to yourselves that it's not hard work, it's very hard work to just write these docs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">And if it's half-done, we're going to publish it anyway, and let people file bugs.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I can attest to that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">And when the bugs start rolling in, that gives us the ideas for what to do next.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">That's helped me a lot with the IG</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1 on half-baked, serve it anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">maybe a better cook will jump in</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We'll check, of course, that what's in there is technically correct -- but if there are topics left out, so be it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">right, I think we can agree on this, seems fair enough</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser orders dinner</td><td><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">We had training on the agenda, but I think there's a group after us in this room</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">couf: Can we keep baking this idea until next time?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">Yeah sure</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">we've got half an hour to go</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">recipe sounds delicious</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Oh!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr> <tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jmbuser: you're welcome to cook :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, we can continue if you guys want</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm digging in</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">stickster: re-reading Fogle's Producing OSS - very sound - recommend it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yup, I read and reviewed it for RHM last year</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">lemme see if I can find that link....</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">His comments on value of docs is motivating to me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">small interjection: 17UTC: good time for meeting?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e"><a href="http://www.redhat.com/magazine/015jan06/features/review_fogel/">http://www.redhat.com/magazine/015jan06/features/review_fogel/</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Matt Asay also is stressing importance of good docs to the success of a project</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Works for me, I know this was touchy for quaid but he said he would aquiesce if it worked for everyone else</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">OK for me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Interesting thing -- you can find some decent docs for some parts of Fedora project work, like packaging and such</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'll read your review, Stickster</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">all right, continue?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Let's talk about training then</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">proceed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><td class="other" colspan="2">-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation -- Oct 7, 1700-1800 UTC -=- <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject</a> -=- TOPIC: Training SIG</td><td><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><td class="action" colspan="2">* couf digs up link</td><td><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BartCouvreur/Training">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BartCouvreur/Training</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yup</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">as well as: <a href="http://couf.livejournal.com/1424.html">http://couf.livejournal.com/1424.html</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">oh-oh, I can't Moodle - blasted ISP blocking it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">There are a couple things we need to be aware of in looking at the training issue -- </td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">1. Training is as difficult to maintain as Docs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">2. Plus, it needs infrastructure to back it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">These are NOT arguments against Training.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I dig it, especially since I have done that sort of work "IRL" before</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">right, major blocker seems to be #1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jmbuser did public seminars a while back</td><td><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I think these courses are a heck of a lot better than things like screencasts, which generally are done because someone found a tool for doing screencasts</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Screencasts are a maintenance nightmare.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">On the other hand, they are VERY easy to make, meaning if you restrict the topic to a two-minute window, who cares about maintenance?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">true</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Courses on the other hand, are much better for growth and modularity</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Plus they can be translated!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">(I would think)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">think / hope</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">:)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:08"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster hasn't looked to see if moodle allows PO for example</td><td><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the big plus for training is that we don't need to write up everything, we could distribute it to the project as whole</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">It would be supercool if you could write a course in en_US, and moodle could create PO for translators to work on</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yup</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">couf: +10</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I'm only speaking as someone interested in writing courseware :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">hehe</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">So the localization is important from a project perspective; interested locales could put their own training in the system</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">But anyone could write courses, and then the good ones could bubble up to the top?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">yeah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Do any upstream project do similar courses which can serve as a model?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> vpv</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I did Moodle stuff about a year ago and I think it didn't have the possibility of translating courses with PO then. Things may have changed, though.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Well, that's a point for improvement, at least</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> littlecharly</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Hi</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jmbuser: I think Bart had posted a couple links</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm afraid most LMS systems lack that functionality</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yeah, that's a shame.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, thanks</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">jmbuser: I know one, but it's not really upstream for us</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">anyway, we should move from here, the fedora-fr meeting is upon us</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Yeah, understood.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Let's wrap for today, OK?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> jmbuser</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> couf</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">all right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> <tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> stickster</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">Thanks everyone for coming to the Docs Project meeting!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr> </table> <div class="generatedby"> <p>Generated by irclog2html.py 2.5 by <a href="mailto:marius@pov.lt">Marius Gedminas</a> - find it at <a href="http://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/">mg.pov.lt</a>!</p> </div> </body> </html>