ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-jun-25

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-JUN-26

Fedora 5 EOL

• Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away.

Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown.

Automatic promotion of updates

• FESCo couldn't agree on anything so they approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work.

Agreed upon Constraints

• autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days.
• Ability for (at least) other maintainers to block or stop an update is a pre-requisite to enabling auto-promotion functionality in our update system.

IRC Transcript

f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting		<a href="#t12:59" class="time">12:59</a>
f13	ping jwb notting jeremy warren rdieter wwoods	<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* notting is here		<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* jeremy is here		<a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* warren here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
warren	f13, I'm preparing my condo for final home inspection before sale, I personally will discuss only in the bodhi automatic pushing topic.	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
warren	today	<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13	ok.	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	warren: I'll re-ping you when that comes up	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	poelcat: are you present as well?	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	(or at least logging...)	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
poelcat	present and accounted for :)	<a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13	still need rdieter jwb and wwoods.	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
jeremy	wwoods is still on vacation	<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
notting	slacker.	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	spot: are you here?	<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
* spot surfaces		<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
spot	my brain HURTS.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
spot	too much email.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	too much mail eh?	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	ok, lets get started.	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora 5 shutdown - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away.	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	(Saturday)	<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	Max already sent an announcement about it, I'd like us to generate the "shutdown" plan	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
notting	woo!	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	Lets look at Core first	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	Core, we'll want to disable pushing of FC5 updates in the update tool.	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	That should be easy enough	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	I'll also lock the dist-fc5-updates-candidate collection so no more builds happen.	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	What do we need to do for Extras?	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot	We also need to take the FC5 branch out of the tools on cvs-int	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13	dgilmore: are you around?	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13	Right so Extras.	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
jeremy	spot: why would we take them out of the tools? (and what tools?)	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13	We need to remove FC-5 as a valid branch request	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot	jeremy: the branch creation tools	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot	the addpackage && mkbranch tools have a "valid branch list"	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
warren	1) Stop branching. 2) Stop building. 3) Stop the push tools from using that directory.	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
warren	f13, do we soon later want to move FC6 to merged CVS and bodhi?	<a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
jeremy	spot: bah. cvs-int != cvs.fp.org in my head	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	warren: that's a later discussion. We're not doing it this week.	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
warren	k	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	so lets start assigning people some tasks.	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	I'm going to make a wiki page for Fedora5Shutdown and list what needs to be done.	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	I'll take the Core stuff	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
warren	I can take care of the branching and pushing scripts, coordinating with Michael Schwendt.	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	can I get some volunteers for the Extras?	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	anybody sucker enough to search teh wiki for FC-5 references and correct them?	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
warren	That too.	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
spot	f13: i'll do that	<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13	ok, great.	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren	spot, you want to take the branching & pushing scripts coordination with Michael Schwendt?	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13	since the 30th falls on a Saturday, do we want to do this on Friday or the following Monday?	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
spot	warren: i already took one sucker task, that one is yours. ;)	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren	f13, why not Monday? Activity there has been very slow lately anyway. Not a huge burden.	<a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13	warren: so that means we'll want to push anything pending on Monday before we shut it down	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren	f13, that's fine, I can handle that.	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	once again I'll pick up the Core side.	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	warren: shall we shoot for 11am EST Monday for the last push?	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren	f13, ooh, one lesson learned from FC-4 EOL	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	warren: go	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren	f13, we should be sure stupid last-minute dep breakage doesn't happen on the final push.	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
warren	that was a little embarassing.	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
dgilmore	f13: whats up	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren	f13, I guess I'll take care of all Extras aspects of the 5 shutdown.	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren	dgilmore, shutting down FE5 buildsys on Monday.	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
dgilmore	warren: it takes me 5 minutes	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren	dgilmore, k	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	warren: well, kernel modules may be broken, are you going to go through and "fix" those?	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	warren: from Core side that's the only thing that is broken IIRC	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
* Bob-Laptop thinks to need an orbital laser to target EOL installs, that makes last day dep breakage no big deal...		<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
warren	f13, it depends on how long they've been broken, lets say we wont introduce new regressions on the final push.	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	dgilmore: I think we're coordinating for Monday the second, sometime in the afternoon.	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren	Bob-Laptop, orbital laser is still down.	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	warren: that makes sense. They've been broken in core land for a /long/ time, but I don't think there are many GFS users in Core 5	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren	f13, nod	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	warren: do you think an Extras push will take more than an hour on Monday?	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren	f13, yes, it is very slow.	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren	f13, I'll begin it in the morning.	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren	f13, after i've verified that it isn't totally hosed, I'll ask dgilmore to shutdown the FE5 buildsys	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	ok.	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	warren: what time owuld you expect the push to go "live" ?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	this has bearing on the announcement we send out, although I suppose we could say Monday morning is the cut off and be vague...	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
warren	f13, just say Monday morning at 9AM eastern is the cut-off and we'll shutdown in sequence from there.	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	k	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
dgilmore	warren: i should shutdown FC-5 builds before you push	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13	shut off at 9, check status, turn on to do targetted builds, shut off again	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
warren	turning back on shouldn't be needed	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
warren	but the option will be there.	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
warren	let's move on	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	sure.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	anybody else think of anything on this topic?	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Automatic promotion of updates - JesseKeating		<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	warren: ping (:	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
* warren here		<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
warren	f13, so it seems FESCo couldn't agree on anything	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	so FESCo approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work.	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	warren: they agreed that they want the possibility for automatic promotion.	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
warren	but not how	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	right.	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	how is a tough term.	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
warren	How about we talk about the time delay first	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	really releng and qa need to setup some boundries and workflow ideas, then hand it to FESCo for approval and to lmacken for implementation	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
warren	I initially proposed 7-day default, which can be overridden by the submitter to be any number of days or NEVER.	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	I think 7 days is fine.	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	the only thing is I'd like there to be a checkbox for 'autopromote' that is unchecked by default.	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren	I think the cries of people who dislike 7-days by default are overblown. If they REALLY don't want it they can turn it off.	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	checking the box gives you access to a dropdown box of numbers for days	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren	oh	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	which would default to 7	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren	You would prefer default of NEVER?	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	yes	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren	Why?	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	I want it to be a concious decision on the part of the maintainer to set himself up for failure.	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	at least for the initial go of this	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
abadger1999	warren: I talked with jwb after the meeting -- his main concern is that there are tests (like broken deps) that aren't being done right now and auto-promote will make that harder to deal with.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
notting	mmm, optimism	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	if there is overwhelming evidence that A) things are going smoothly with users and B) the maintainers at large want it by default, we can flip it so that it's enabled by default.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	abadger1999, that shouldn't be an issue, auto-promote can be auto-backed out if it breaks something.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	oh hrm, I forgot a housekeeping item.	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren	f13, except maintainers will be confused that the default changes	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
warren	f13, they saw one behavior and it suddenly changes, they might not notice.	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	poelcat: Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown.	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	warren: so we don't make it "sudden" we make it coordinated and announce it to fedora-devel-announce	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	warren: and maybe we put something in the front of bodhi that alerts users that something has changed.	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren	hmm sounds good.	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13	bodhi could probably easly have a big red flag somewhere that says "New version, see changes"	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren	OK, default to NEVER, let the submitter choose.	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren	Before this goes live however, we need some way for others (not the submitter) to stop an update.	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
* rdieter pokes in (after lunch)		<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13	warren: right, thats kind of the next topic.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	lets get a vote on the first tiem.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	Proposal: autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days.	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	+1	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren	+1 on Default to NEVER, submitter can choose number of days starting with 7	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
rdieter	+1	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren	no nays.	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13	jeremy: spot: notting: ?	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
spot	+0	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
notting	+1	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
spot	i see both sides, not willing to pick one	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13	k	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
jeremy	+1	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13	ok, that passes.	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	We'll argue about minimal time later, maybe let QA handle that.	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	The next part should be pretty easy yeah? We want there to be a way for somebody to block an update from autopromotion, incase the maintainer doesn't notice the complaints in time.	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	at least from the conceptual level I think this is a no-brainer. How it's implemented deserves some thought.	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
warren	Saw my proposal regarding this?	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	briefly	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
warren	In an ideal case, it would be something like this...	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren	<a href="http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX">http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX</a> is a URL that forever describes a given update.	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren	This is a separate interface from bodhi's developer interface. This interface is for users to read details about an update and make comments on it.	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren	In addition to comment on updates or updates-testing, this is where we can have a STOP!!! button.	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
f13	it would still be /ran/ by bodhi though right?	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren	Perhaps we can allow anonymous (no FAS account) commenting with CAPTCHA, but FAS account is required for a user to click STOP!!!!	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren	Yes, operating on the same bodhi database.	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren	just a different view for public consumption.	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	k	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren	talked a bit with lmacken on this topic already	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	so FAS required for a stop. The maintainer or "admin" could clear the stops though yes?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren	yes	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	and/or manually push anyway?	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren	yes	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13	k, that works for me.	<a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren	The current developer bodhi interface already has commenting but no Stop button, we could deploy sooner if we have the Stop button there.	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren	Work on the public interface for later deployment.	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren	a Stop button in the developer bodhi interface would be important if we do any auto-promotion	<a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
notting	and then,we have the stop wars!	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13	we'll see. I don't see this as a higher priority to other things like dep checking or auto buildroot population with bodhi sanity checking.	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
warren	nod	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
warren	So we don't deploy auto-promotion at all until dep checking or auto buildroot population are done?	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13	well, not necessarily, but if only one person is working on bodhi, there are priorities.	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	so I'm happy with that aspect of things.	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
warren	I highly suggest that a Stop button at least in the maintainer bodhi interface is a prerequisite for auto-promotion.	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	warren: sure.	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	warren: I think a stop button is absolutely a pre-req	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	the priorities I'm talking about are say autopromotion period vs ability to depcheck updates	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
notting	how many updates have we had that would have needed a stop button?	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13	A couple, but those may have been broken deps related	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
f13	I think there have been some kde testing-updates that are broken and would get a STOP vote	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jeremy	notting: I can arrange for some ;-)	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
notting	ok. just want to make sure we're not beating the cart before the dead horse	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
warren	anything more on this topic?	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
f13	for stopping? not from me.	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
warren	I have to go	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13	are there more aspects of autopromotion that we should discuss?	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13	warren: can you wikize your proposal somewhere so we can all reference it and make changes as we go along?	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
warren	f13, ok sure	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Open Discussion		<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
f13	anything anybody wants to discuss?	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13	ok, guess I'll wrap it up	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
f13	thanks all.	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>

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