From Fedora Project Wiki
Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-JUN-26
Fedora 5 EOL
- Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away.
Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown.
Automatic promotion of updates
- FESCo couldn't agree on anything so they approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work.
Agreed upon Constraints
- autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days.
- Ability for (at least) other maintainers to block or stop an update is a pre-requisite to enabling auto-promotion functionality in our update system.
IRC Transcript
 f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting
|
<a href="#t12:59" class="time">12:59</a> | |
| f13 | ping jwb notting jeremy warren rdieter wwoods | <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a> |
|---|---|---|
| * notting is here | <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a> | |
| * jeremy is here | <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a> | |
| * warren here | <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a> | |
| warren | f13, I'm preparing my condo for final home inspection before sale, I personally will discuss only in the bodhi automatic pushing topic. | <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a> |
| warren | today | <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a> |
| f13 | ok. | <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a> |
| f13 | warren: I'll re-ping you when that comes up | <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a> |
| f13 | poelcat: are you present as well? | <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a> |
| f13 | (or at least logging...) | <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a> |
| poelcat | present and accounted for :) | <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a> |
| f13 | still need rdieter jwb and wwoods. | <a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a> |
| jeremy | wwoods is still on vacation | <a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a> |
| notting | slacker. | <a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a> |
| f13 | spot: are you here? | <a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a> |
| * spot surfaces | <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a> | |
| spot | my brain HURTS. | <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a> |
| spot | too much email. | <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a> |
| f13 | too much mail eh? | <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a> |
| f13 | ok, lets get started. | <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a> |
| f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora 5 shutdown - JesseKeating
|
<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a> | |
| f13 | Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away. | <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a> |
| f13 | (Saturday) | <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a> |
| f13 | Max already sent an announcement about it, I'd like us to generate the "shutdown" plan | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| notting | woo! | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| f13 | Lets look at Core first | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| f13 | Core, we'll want to disable pushing of FC5 updates in the update tool. | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| f13 | That should be easy enough | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| f13 | I'll also lock the dist-fc5-updates-candidate collection so no more builds happen. | <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a> |
| f13 | What do we need to do for Extras? | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| spot | We also need to take the FC5 branch out of the tools on cvs-int | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| f13 | dgilmore: are you around? | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| f13 | Right so Extras. | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| jeremy | spot: why would we take them out of the tools? (and what tools?) | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| f13 | We need to remove FC-5 as a valid branch request | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| spot | jeremy: the branch creation tools | <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a> |
| spot | the addpackage && mkbranch tools have a "valid branch list" | <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a> |
| warren | 1) Stop branching. 2) Stop building. 3) Stop the push tools from using that directory. | <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a> |
| warren | f13, do we soon later want to move FC6 to merged CVS and bodhi? | <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a> |
| jeremy | spot: bah. cvs-int != cvs.fp.org in my head | <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a> |
| f13 | warren: that's a later discussion. We're not doing it this week. | <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a> |
| warren | k | <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a> |
| f13 | so lets start assigning people some tasks. | <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a> |
| f13 | I'm going to make a wiki page for Fedora5Shutdown and list what needs to be done. | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| f13 | I'll take the Core stuff | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| warren | I can take care of the branching and pushing scripts, coordinating with Michael Schwendt. | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| f13 | can I get some volunteers for the Extras? | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| f13 | anybody sucker enough to search teh wiki for FC-5 references and correct them? | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| warren | That too. | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| spot | f13: i'll do that | <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a> |
| f13 | ok, great. | <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a> |
| warren | spot, you want to take the branching & pushing scripts coordination with Michael Schwendt? | <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a> |
| f13 | since the 30th falls on a Saturday, do we want to do this on Friday or the following Monday? | <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a> |
| spot | warren: i already took one sucker task, that one is yours. ;) | <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a> |
| warren | f13, why not Monday? Activity there has been very slow lately anyway. Not a huge burden. | <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a> |
| f13 | warren: so that means we'll want to push anything pending on Monday before we shut it down | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| warren | f13, that's fine, I can handle that. | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| f13 | once again I'll pick up the Core side. | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| f13 | warren: shall we shoot for 11am EST Monday for the last push? | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| warren | f13, ooh, one lesson learned from FC-4 EOL | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| f13 | warren: go | <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a> |
| warren | f13, we should be sure stupid last-minute dep breakage doesn't happen on the final push. | <a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a> |
| warren | that was a little embarassing. | <a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a> |
| dgilmore | f13: whats up | <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a> |
| warren | f13, I guess I'll take care of all Extras aspects of the 5 shutdown. | <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a> |
| warren | dgilmore, shutting down FE5 buildsys on Monday. | <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a> |
| dgilmore | warren: it takes me 5 minutes | <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a> |
| warren | dgilmore, k | <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a> |
| f13 | warren: well, kernel modules may be broken, are you going to go through and "fix" those? | <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a> |
| f13 | warren: from Core side that's the only thing that is broken IIRC | <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a> |
| * Bob-Laptop thinks to need an orbital laser to target EOL installs, that makes last day dep breakage no big deal... | <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a> | |
| warren | f13, it depends on how long they've been broken, lets say we wont introduce new regressions on the final push. | <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a> |
| f13 | dgilmore: I think we're coordinating for Monday the second, sometime in the afternoon. | <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a> |
| warren | Bob-Laptop, orbital laser is still down. | <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a> |
| f13 | warren: that makes sense. They've been broken in core land for a /long/ time, but I don't think there are many GFS users in Core 5 | <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a> |
| warren | f13, nod | <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a> |
| f13 | warren: do you think an Extras push will take more than an hour on Monday? | <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a> |
| warren | f13, yes, it is very slow. | <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> |
| warren | f13, I'll begin it in the morning. | <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> |
| warren | f13, after i've verified that it isn't totally hosed, I'll ask dgilmore to shutdown the FE5 buildsys | <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> |
| f13 | ok. | <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> |
| f13 | warren: what time owuld you expect the push to go "live" ? | <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> |
| f13 | this has bearing on the announcement we send out, although I suppose we could say Monday morning is the cut off and be vague... | <a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a> |
| warren | f13, just say Monday morning at 9AM eastern is the cut-off and we'll shutdown in sequence from there. | <a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a> |
| f13 | k | <a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a> |
| dgilmore | warren: i should shutdown FC-5 builds before you push | <a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a> |
| f13 | shut off at 9, check status, turn on to do targetted builds, shut off again | <a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a> |
| warren | turning back on shouldn't be needed | <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a> |
| warren | but the option will be there. | <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a> |
| warren | let's move on | <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a> |
| f13 | sure. | <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a> |
| f13 | anybody else think of anything on this topic? | <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a> |
| f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Automatic promotion of updates - JesseKeating
|
<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a> | |
| f13 | warren: ping (: | <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a> |
| * warren here | <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a> | |
| warren | f13, so it seems FESCo couldn't agree on anything | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| f13 | so FESCo approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work. | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| f13 | warren: they agreed that they want the possibility for automatic promotion. | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| warren | but not how | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| f13 | right. | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| f13 | how is a tough term. | <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a> |
| warren | How about we talk about the time delay first | <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a> |
| f13 | really releng and qa need to setup some boundries and workflow ideas, then hand it to FESCo for approval and to lmacken for implementation | <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a> |
| warren | I initially proposed 7-day default, which can be overridden by the submitter to be any number of days or NEVER. | <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a> |
| f13 | I think 7 days is fine. | <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a> |
| f13 | the only thing is I'd like there to be a checkbox for 'autopromote' that is unchecked by default. | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| warren | I think the cries of people who dislike 7-days by default are overblown. If they REALLY don't want it they can turn it off. | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| f13 | checking the box gives you access to a dropdown box of numbers for days | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| warren | oh | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| f13 | which would default to 7 | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| warren | You would prefer default of NEVER? | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| f13 | yes | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| warren | Why? | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| f13 | I want it to be a concious decision on the part of the maintainer to set himself up for failure. | <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a> |
| f13 | at least for the initial go of this | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| abadger1999 | warren: I talked with jwb after the meeting -- his main concern is that there are tests (like broken deps) that aren't being done right now and auto-promote will make that harder to deal with. | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| notting | mmm, optimism | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| f13 | if there is overwhelming evidence that A) things are going smoothly with users and B) the maintainers at large want it by default, we can flip it so that it's enabled by default. | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| warren | abadger1999, that shouldn't be an issue, auto-promote can be auto-backed out if it breaks something. | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| f13 | oh hrm, I forgot a housekeeping item. | <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a> |
| warren | f13, except maintainers will be confused that the default changes | <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a> |
| warren | f13, they saw one behavior and it suddenly changes, they might not notice. | <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a> |
| f13 | poelcat: Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown. | <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a> |
| f13 | warren: so we don't make it "sudden" we make it coordinated and announce it to fedora-devel-announce | <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a> |
| f13 | warren: and maybe we put something in the front of bodhi that alerts users that something has changed. | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> |
| warren | hmm sounds good. | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> |
| f13 | bodhi could probably easly have a big red flag somewhere that says "New version, see changes" | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> |
| warren | OK, default to NEVER, let the submitter choose. | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> |
| warren | Before this goes live however, we need some way for others (not the submitter) to stop an update. | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> |
| * rdieter pokes in (after lunch) | <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a> | |
| f13 | warren: right, thats kind of the next topic. | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| f13 | lets get a vote on the first tiem. | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| f13 | Proposal: autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days. | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| f13 | +1 | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| warren | +1 on Default to NEVER, submitter can choose number of days starting with 7 | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| rdieter | +1 | <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a> |
| warren | no nays. | <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a> |
| f13 | jeremy: spot: notting: ? | <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a> |
| spot | +0 | <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a> |
| notting | +1 | <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a> |
| spot | i see both sides, not willing to pick one | <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a> |
| f13 | k | <a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a> |
| jeremy | +1 | <a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a> |
| f13 | ok, that passes. | <a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a> |
| f13 | We'll argue about minimal time later, maybe let QA handle that. | <a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a> |
| f13 | The next part should be pretty easy yeah? We want there to be a way for somebody to block an update from autopromotion, incase the maintainer doesn't notice the complaints in time. | <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a> |
| f13 | at least from the conceptual level I think this is a no-brainer. How it's implemented deserves some thought. | <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a> |
| warren | Saw my proposal regarding this? | <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a> |
| f13 | briefly | <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a> |
| warren | In an ideal case, it would be something like this... | <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a> |
| warren | <a href="http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX">http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX</a> is a URL that forever describes a given update. | <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a> |
| warren | This is a separate interface from bodhi's developer interface. This interface is for users to read details about an update and make comments on it. | <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a> |
| warren | In addition to comment on updates or updates-testing, this is where we can have a STOP!!! button. | <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a> |
| f13 | it would still be /ran/ by bodhi though right? | <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a> |
| warren | Perhaps we can allow anonymous (no FAS account) commenting with CAPTCHA, but FAS account is required for a user to click STOP!!!! | <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a> |
| warren | Yes, operating on the same bodhi database. | <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a> |
| warren | just a different view for public consumption. | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| f13 | k | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| warren | talked a bit with lmacken on this topic already | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| f13 | so FAS required for a stop. The maintainer or "admin" could clear the stops though yes? | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| warren | yes | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| f13 | and/or manually push anyway? | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| warren | yes | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| f13 | k, that works for me. | <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a> |
| warren | The current developer bodhi interface already has commenting but no Stop button, we could deploy sooner if we have the Stop button there. | <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a> |
| warren | Work on the public interface for later deployment. | <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a> |
| warren | a Stop button in the developer bodhi interface would be important if we do any auto-promotion | <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a> |
| notting | and then,we have the stop wars! | <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a> |
| f13 | we'll see. I don't see this as a higher priority to other things like dep checking or auto buildroot population with bodhi sanity checking. | <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a> |
| warren | nod | <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a> |
| warren | So we don't deploy auto-promotion at all until dep checking or auto buildroot population are done? | <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a> |
| f13 | well, not necessarily, but if only one person is working on bodhi, there are priorities. | <a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a> |
| f13 | so I'm happy with that aspect of things. | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| warren | I highly suggest that a Stop button at least in the maintainer bodhi interface is a prerequisite for auto-promotion. | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| f13 | warren: sure. | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| f13 | warren: I think a stop button is absolutely a pre-req | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| f13 | the priorities I'm talking about are say autopromotion period vs ability to depcheck updates | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| notting | how many updates have we had that would have needed a stop button? | <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a> |
| f13 | A couple, but those may have been broken deps related | <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a> |
| f13 | I think there have been some kde testing-updates that are broken and would get a STOP vote | <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a> |
| jeremy | notting: I can arrange for some ;-) | <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a> |
| notting | ok. just want to make sure we're not beating the cart before the dead horse | <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a> |
| warren | anything more on this topic? | <a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a> |
| f13 | for stopping? not from me. | <a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a> |
| warren | I have to go | <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a> |
| f13 | are there more aspects of autopromotion that we should discuss? | <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a> |
| f13 | warren: can you wikize your proposal somewhere so we can all reference it and make changes as we go along? | <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a> |
| warren | f13, ok sure | <a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a> |
| f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Open Discussion
|
<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a> | |
| f13 | anything anybody wants to discuss? | <a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a> |
| f13 | ok, guess I'll wrap it up | <a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a> |
| f13 | thanks all. | <a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a> |
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