ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-nov-19

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-11-19

Topics Discussed

• Releasing Fedora 9 on CD--up to the Fedora Board to decide what they want
• Enabling Jigdo
• http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease
• create and host templates outside of Fedora for now
• if in time there is enough demand, possibly add to compose process

IRC Transcript

--- Log opened Mon Nov 19 12:58:47 2007
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 82 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normal]		<a href="#t12:58" class="time">12:58</a>
-!- Irssi: Join to #fedora-meeting was synced in 1 secs		<a href="#t12:58" class="time">12:58</a>
* kanarip is here		<a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
* poelcat here		<a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
* jwb is here		<a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13	oh yeah.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	it's that time.	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting		<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13	jeremy notting warren wwoods spot ping	<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
* spot is around		<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
* jeremy is around		<a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
* warren here		<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
* EvilBob is round...		<a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13	kanarip: what was the url to your wiki page regarding jigdo?	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
* notting is here		<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
kanarip	<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease</a>	<a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13	thanks, adding it to the agenda page, I forgot to do that earlier.	<a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease</a>		<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13	lets all take a moment to review this	<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
* warren tries to load page		<a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
* warren still waiting		<a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
jwb	so that is mostly a benefit for the mirror servers?	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	jwb: it can be a benefit to users too	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
poelcat	jwb and users too	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
jwb	how?	<a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13	jwb: if they have content downloaded, jigdo can use that downlaoded content to construct the iso, instead of having to download the entire iso	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
jwb	i rolled that into mirroring	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
poelcat	my own example is that I sync a local rawhide tree and usually when a new iso comes out I have 75% of the content already... why download it all again via bittorrent?	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
spot	maybe i don't understand jigdo, but it sounds like it would make getting isos massively more complicated than it is now.	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
kanarip	jwb, the footprint on a mirror decreases by not having to host the .iso file	<a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
notting	f13: right, but that implies they *do* have the content first	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
jwb	poelcat, perhaps my definition of "user" is too limited.  you (and i since i do the same) would not be considered "users" in my terms	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
jeremy	spot: it does	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
jwb	kanarip, right that's the major benefit i see	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
kanarip	spot, however Jigdo isn't mutually exclusive with torrent, or with having the .iso files on the mirrors as well	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
notting	one thing about the notes listed - we actually put repoview on the isos?	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
spot	for example, if i wanted to download fedora to a windows box...	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
poelcat	jwb: agreed--today :) but why not provide the opportunity to expand it	<a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
kanarip	notting, yes Fedora 8 had repoview/ on the ISOs	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
notting	... why?	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
* jeremy is very against not having isos on mirrors. if the end result iso can be verified (sha1sum) vs the published sha1sum, I guess I'm okay with publishing jigdo files		<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	notting: I forgot to exclude it.	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
notting	jeremy: technically, spins aren't on the mirrors	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
spot	jeremy: agreed. i'm not against jigdo + isos, but only jigdo? Nah.	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
jwb	jeremy, yeah.  i see it as an add-on, not a replacement	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
kanarip	notting, however one can exclude those files from becoming 'slices' the client wants to obtain from the mirrors and have it included in the .template files	<a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13	kanarip: actually we need to just keep repoview off the iso period.	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	I need to make that change in pungi	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	jeremy: I'm with you.	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
kanarip	jeremy, yes sha1sums can be verified on the .iso composed with jigdo	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
jeremy	notting: given that all of the spins are live images, jigdo is irrelevant for them, so ... :)	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13	The big question I have then is, for normal users (IE ones without a pile of mirrored packages), what is the point?	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
kanarip	in fact the .jigdo also has an md5sum for the .template	<a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
* poelcat would vote for removing the part of about not hosting isos on mirrors as the benefit of this feature		<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13	other than yet another (confusing) method to download the release?	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
jwb	i like the CD set thing	<a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
jeremy	f13: I think that's perhaps just a matter of having get-fedora even clearer than it is now (it's a lot better than previous releases, but could still be better :)	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
kanarip	f13, for releases there may not be much of a point for users that do not have piles of files already, although jigdo can be made to thread and/or use http pipelining	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
f13	so... if there is not much of a point....	<a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
kanarip	compared to torrent however that'll not be much of an advantage	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
jwb	f13, jigdo seems like a good compromise for providing templates for isos we don't want to carry	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
jwb	e.g. CD sets	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	jwb: what isos, besides live, are we not going to carry?	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
notting	as a way to do cd sets, or everything	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
jwb	right	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
jwb	CD sets, everything, etc	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	jwb: I'm pretty sure the board is going to ask us to do CD sets for 9	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13	so that just leaves Everything.	<a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
kanarip	jwb, and for people that do have piles of files already, having a .template for the DVD is another ~24 MB but saves a lot, lot of time for the client	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
jwb	kanarip, sure that too.  smaller benefit to most people, but still valid	<a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
poelcat	i think it is worth doing, but would not advertise as part of get-fedora, at least not for F9	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13	jwb: if we're not hosting the Everything cd sets, where would the jigdo template for them come from?	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
poelcat	for the people that can take advantage of it, is the burden on rel-eng too high to justify doing?	<a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
jwb	f13, people could create them and provide the templates?	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	poelcat: I'm still trying to understand what the burden is.	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13	jwb: where would we put them?  Changes to the release tree are costly and should be avoided if at all possible	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
poelcat	f13: fwict creating the template	<a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
jwb	f13, i'm not following	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	poelcat: but if we're not creating teh /content/ that the template would be useful for...	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
kanarip	poelcat, maybe i can answer that... partly	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13	jwb: other people make content and provide templates, where do we /put/ those templates?	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
jwb	releases/N/jigo?	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
jwb	i dunno	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
jwb	that seems like a fairly small detail	<a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
kanarip	poelcat, creating the files for an Everything spin including CD, DVD and DVD Dual Layer media in one run takes about 6 hours	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
jwb	maybe i'm oversimplifying things	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
kanarip	how about in the $arch/ directory next to iso/ and os/, jigdo/	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
poelcat	f13: i was thinking about doing them myself and putting them on fedorapeople page, but it would make more sense to have them in a central place	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
kanarip	these templates are still arch specific really	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
jwb	kanarip, that's actually what i meant, yes	<a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13	kanarip: are you going to have the templates ready when we release it to mirrors?	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13	kanarip: often times mirrors will sync release one, and never again.  Getting content changed in the release tree is not trivial.	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
kanarip	f13, i can	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
kanarip	f13, i understand	<a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
kanarip	f13, for Fedora 9 (and t1-3) however including the jigdo file and templates would be relatively easy though, right?	<a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13	again, it has to be ready at release time	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
kanarip	as long as the releases/ tree doesn't change during a release, right?	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
kanarip	right, i understand	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	will you have Everything templates ready at release time?	<a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13	or rather, ready the 7~ days before release when we hand content off to be synced?	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
kanarip	if i can get some pre-release access to the released tree somehow, yes	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
EvilBob	once the ISOs are ready we can do the jigdo dance on them	<a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13	is there a reason the templates have to be on the mirrors or in the release tree?  Couldn't they be offered up elsewhere?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13	since we're not going to advertise it on get-fedora...	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
jwb	they could	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
kanarip	f13, is that the target? complete Everything/ Spins?	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
kanarip	f13, no reason to have the files in the release tree	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
kanarip	f13, spins.fp.org/jigdo is just as good	<a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
kanarip	anywhere actually	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13	kanarip: well, if the board comes back and says they want CD versions of the Fedora spin, that just leaves Everything to worry about.	<a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
jwb	why would the board do that?	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
kanarip	because there is a number of users that wants the CD's, as the numbers of downloads from Fedora Unity spins have shown	<a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13	jwb: because they feel there is still enough want/desire for that media, and if the project is going to produce tha tmedia and make it easily available, it should go through the same compose/QA processes that the other bits of the release goes though.	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
Southern_Gentlem	jwb because from our respins 20% of the downloads have been cd	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	so rel-eng was wrong	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
jwb	this is good.  means we learned something	<a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13	jwb: releng + the board.	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13	jwb: not doing CD media wasn't our decision alone	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
jwb	sure	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
jwb	fedoraproject was wrong	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
jwb	:)	<a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
kanarip	+, now we have a way to potentially decrease the overhead these extra images take on mirror disc space	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
Southern_Gentlem	jwb no sense beating a dead horse	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
jwb	Southern_Gentlem, wasn't	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
kanarip	f13, concerning the footprint on the mirrors btw... i was wondering why most of them still carry FC1-FC5, is that ever going to expire?	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	kanarip: except that I don't feel comfortable /at/ /all/ not having the actual content on mirrors.	<a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
f13	kanarip: it'll likely expire when the master expires it.	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
jwb	f13, some of the big mirrors actually run with those older versions	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
kanarip	f13, i understand, as i said none of this is mutually exclusive with current distribution methods	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
kanarip	i wouldn't want that either	<a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
kanarip	so what are we planning to do? release F9t1 with jigdo, after it's released create the jigdo files and publish them somewhere?	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13	it seems to me that if we're hosting the jigdo files outside of the tree, they could be produced at any time right?	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13	by any body?	<a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
kanarip	at any time, right	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
jwb	yes, as long as the content they're created against doesn't change	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
kanarip	by anybody, right	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
kanarip	jwb, +1	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
jwb	i liked the idea of having them hosted on spins.fp.org	<a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13	so then really, as far as releng is concerned, it's just business as usual no?  We produce trees/isos, put them in expected places, somebody can come along and make jigdo files for them and add it to spins.fp.o	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
kanarip	f13, yes	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
jwb	i think so.  have to do the board approval dance?	<a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
jeremy	shouldn't be any need	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
poelcat	in time though, if demand is high enough, mabye tag onto the end of the compose process by releng and then everything stays in sync and is automated?	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jwb	jeremy, oh true	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
jeremy	poelcat: yeah.  this lets us see what the real demand with a lower-weight process first	<a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a>
poelcat	wow, that makes too much sense :)	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jeremy	I know.  crazy, isn't it?	<a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
f13	Proposal:  Jigdo feature owner works on getting up spins.fp.o to be able to host jigdo files.  Files are created out of band initially and hosted there.	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
f13	+1	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
jwb	+1	<a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
jeremy	+1	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
spot	+1	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
kanarip	+1	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
notting	+1	<a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
jwb	poelcat, ?	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
poelcat	+1	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
Southern_Gentlem	+1	<a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a>
f13	Southern_Gentlem: hey now...	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
EvilBob	lol	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
f13	that's the majority of us, looks like it passes.	<a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
Southern_Gentlem	fyi <a href="http://f3dora.org/paste/555">http://f3dora.org/paste/555</a> you can see the demand for FU f8 cd jigdo	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Goals for F9 release		<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13	Last week I had asked ya'll to think up some goals for the release cycle, so that we can file milestones in Trac to track progress and deadlines.	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
poelcat	Does gcc4.3 fit in here?	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13	Did anybody come up with anything?  I know I failed to file my signing server stuff.	<a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
jeremy	poelcat: it's a release feature, not anything rel-eng specific	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
jwb	i have a few things that are sort of rel-eng related	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
poelcat	jeremy: mass rebuild?	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
jwb	but it depends on the outcome of other discussions	<a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
f13	poelcat: I'm thinking more regarding infrastructure changes or policy changes during the release.  LIke introducing a signing server	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
jwb	f13, question for you... can the arch teams use trac as well?	<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
* poelcat withdraws his suggestion and holds for later		<a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a>
f13	jwb: our rel-eng trac instance, or their own instance on fedora hosted projects?	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
jwb	either.  though rel-eng would obviously be simpler overall	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
f13	I don't see a reason to deny that.	<a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a>
poelcat	does "secondary arch" project already have a trac instance?	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
f13	poelcat: I don't think so	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jwb	poelcat, what secondary arch project?	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jwb	:)	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
poelcat	lol	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
poelcat	jwb: i keep hearing things are happening in different places	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
jwb	f13, reason i ask is that i would think the 2ndary arch teams might want to "clone" some of the milestones you've already created	<a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a>
f13	jwb: yeah, I don't know of a good way to do that in Trac.	<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
jwb	ok, well new ones are fine too	<a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a>
f13	I'd have to get a list of names to add the trac admins for this instance, but should be OK	<a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a>
jwb	ok	<a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a>
jwb	we'll work that out later	<a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a>
f13	well... in the interest of actually getting something done today, is there anything else anybody would like to talk about?	<a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Discussion		<a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a>
jwb	do we need to run the jidgo thing by fesco?	<a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a>
f13	jwb: it's a proposed Feature	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
f13	jwb: therefor it'll go through FESCo	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
jwb	oh, right	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
jwb	sorry	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
poelcat	f13: do we need a mass rebuild for gcc4.3 ?	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
f13	poelcat: I haven't looked closely at the feature page, but we'll deal with that when it comes time to review all features	<a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a>
poelcat	f13: I'm not sure if their is a feature page	<a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a>
* poelcat can't spell		<a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a>
f13	poelcat: until there is, I'm not going to plan for a mass rebuild (:	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
poelcat	f13: :)  this should get interesting	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
poelcat	when i asked Uli he said "it is just a complier" :)	<a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a>
f13	poelcat: point him at the part of the feature planning where "would involve coordinating with large sets of other packages"	<a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a>
f13	or that concept	<a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a>
* poelcat completely agrees		<a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a>
poelcat	i'll work on this a little more then	<a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a>
jwb	poelcat, why did you ask Uli?	<a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a>
poelcat	jwb: i'm having internal meetings with each of the groups to see what they are thiking about or planning for F9	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
jwb	isn't jakub the gcc maintainer?	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
poelcat	jwb: correct	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
jwb	did you ask jakub?	<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
poelcat	jwb: i'm going to talk to him	<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>
jwb	poelcat, ok.  there are certain things that could benefit from a rebuild with 4.3	<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>
jwb	but i'll refrain from commenting on that since it wouldn't make sense overall	<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>
f13	if there's nothing else...	<a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a>
-!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule		<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>

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