From Fedora Project Wiki
Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-11-19
Topics Discussed
- Releasing Fedora 9 on CD--up to the Fedora Board to decide what they want
- Enabling Jigdo
- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease
- create and host templates outside of Fedora for now
- if in time there is enough demand, possibly add to compose process
IRC Transcript
| --- Log opened Mon Nov 19 12:58:47 2007 | ||
| -!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 82 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normal] | 12:58 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #fedora-meeting was synced in 1 secs | 12:58 | |
| * kanarip is here | 13:01 | |
| * poelcat here | 13:03 | |
| * jwb is here | 13:04 | |
| f13 | oh yeah. | 13:05 |
|---|---|---|
| f13 | it's that time. | 13:05 |
| -!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting | 13:05 | |
| f13 | jeremy notting warren wwoods spot ping | 13:05 |
| * spot is around | 13:05 | |
| * jeremy is around | 13:05 | |
| * warren here | 13:06 | |
| * EvilBob is round... | 13:06 | |
| f13 | kanarip: what was the url to your wiki page regarding jigdo? | 13:07 |
| * notting is here | 13:07 | |
| kanarip | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease | 13:07 |
| f13 | thanks, adding it to the agenda page, I forgot to do that earlier. | 13:08 |
| -!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease | 13:10 | |
| f13 | lets all take a moment to review this | 13:10 |
| * warren tries to load page | 13:10 | |
| * warren still waiting | 13:11 | |
| jwb | so that is mostly a benefit for the mirror servers? | 13:13 |
| f13 | jwb: it can be a benefit to users too | 13:13 |
| poelcat | jwb and users too | 13:13 |
| jwb | how? | 13:13 |
| f13 | jwb: if they have content downloaded, jigdo can use that downlaoded content to construct the iso, instead of having to download the entire iso | 13:14 |
| jwb | i rolled that into mirroring | 13:14 |
| poelcat | my own example is that I sync a local rawhide tree and usually when a new iso comes out I have 75% of the content already... why download it all again via bittorrent? | 13:14 |
| spot | maybe i don't understand jigdo, but it sounds like it would make getting isos massively more complicated than it is now. | 13:14 |
| kanarip | jwb, the footprint on a mirror decreases by not having to host the .iso file | 13:14 |
| notting | f13: right, but that implies they *do* have the content first | 13:15 |
| jwb | poelcat, perhaps my definition of "user" is too limited. you (and i since i do the same) would not be considered "users" in my terms | 13:15 |
| jeremy | spot: it does | 13:15 |
| jwb | kanarip, right that's the major benefit i see | 13:15 |
| kanarip | spot, however Jigdo isn't mutually exclusive with torrent, or with having the .iso files on the mirrors as well | 13:15 |
| notting | one thing about the notes listed - we actually put repoview on the isos? | 13:15 |
| spot | for example, if i wanted to download fedora to a windows box... | 13:15 |
| poelcat | jwb: agreed--today :) but why not provide the opportunity to expand it | 13:15 |
| kanarip | notting, yes Fedora 8 had repoview/ on the ISOs | 13:16 |
| notting | ... why? | 13:16 |
| * jeremy is very against not having isos on mirrors. if the end result iso can be verified (sha1sum) vs the published sha1sum, I guess I'm okay with publishing jigdo files | 13:16 | |
| f13 | notting: I forgot to exclude it. | 13:16 |
| notting | jeremy: technically, spins aren't on the mirrors | 13:16 |
| spot | jeremy: agreed. i'm not against jigdo + isos, but only jigdo? Nah. | 13:16 |
| jwb | jeremy, yeah. i see it as an add-on, not a replacement | 13:16 |
| kanarip | notting, however one can exclude those files from becoming 'slices' the client wants to obtain from the mirrors and have it included in the .template files | 13:16 |
| f13 | kanarip: actually we need to just keep repoview off the iso period. | 13:17 |
| f13 | I need to make that change in pungi | 13:17 |
| f13 | jeremy: I'm with you. | 13:17 |
| kanarip | jeremy, yes sha1sums can be verified on the .iso composed with jigdo | 13:17 |
| jeremy | notting: given that all of the spins are live images, jigdo is irrelevant for them, so ... :) | 13:17 |
| f13 | The big question I have then is, for normal users (IE ones without a pile of mirrored packages), what is the point? | 13:17 |
| kanarip | in fact the .jigdo also has an md5sum for the .template | 13:17 |
| * poelcat would vote for removing the part of about not hosting isos on mirrors as the benefit of this feature | 13:18 | |
| f13 | other than yet another (confusing) method to download the release? | 13:18 |
| jwb | i like the CD set thing | 13:18 |
| jeremy | f13: I think that's perhaps just a matter of having get-fedora even clearer than it is now (it's a lot better than previous releases, but could still be better :) | 13:19 |
| kanarip | f13, for releases there may not be much of a point for users that do not have piles of files already, although jigdo can be made to thread and/or use http pipelining | 13:19 |
| f13 | so... if there is not much of a point.... | 13:19 |
| kanarip | compared to torrent however that'll not be much of an advantage | 13:20 |
| jwb | f13, jigdo seems like a good compromise for providing templates for isos we don't want to carry | 13:20 |
| jwb | e.g. CD sets | 13:20 |
| f13 | jwb: what isos, besides live, are we not going to carry? | 13:20 |
| notting | as a way to do cd sets, or everything | 13:20 |
| jwb | right | 13:20 |
| jwb | CD sets, everything, etc | 13:20 |
| f13 | jwb: I'm pretty sure the board is going to ask us to do CD sets for 9 | 13:20 |
| f13 | so that just leaves Everything. | 13:20 |
| kanarip | jwb, and for people that do have piles of files already, having a .template for the DVD is another ~24 MB but saves a lot, lot of time for the client | 13:21 |
| jwb | kanarip, sure that too. smaller benefit to most people, but still valid | 13:21 |
| poelcat | i think it is worth doing, but would not advertise as part of get-fedora, at least not for F9 | 13:22 |
| f13 | jwb: if we're not hosting the Everything cd sets, where would the jigdo template for them come from? | 13:22 |
| poelcat | for the people that can take advantage of it, is the burden on rel-eng too high to justify doing? | 13:22 |
| jwb | f13, people could create them and provide the templates? | 13:23 |
| f13 | poelcat: I'm still trying to understand what the burden is. | 13:23 |
| f13 | jwb: where would we put them? Changes to the release tree are costly and should be avoided if at all possible | 13:23 |
| poelcat | f13: fwict creating the template | 13:23 |
| jwb | f13, i'm not following | 13:24 |
| f13 | poelcat: but if we're not creating teh /content/ that the template would be useful for... | 13:24 |
| kanarip | poelcat, maybe i can answer that... partly | 13:24 |
| f13 | jwb: other people make content and provide templates, where do we /put/ those templates? | 13:24 |
| jwb | releases/N/jigo? | 13:24 |
| jwb | i dunno | 13:24 |
| jwb | that seems like a fairly small detail | 13:24 |
| kanarip | poelcat, creating the files for an Everything spin including CD, DVD and DVD Dual Layer media in one run takes about 6 hours | 13:25 |
| jwb | maybe i'm oversimplifying things | 13:25 |
| kanarip | how about in the $arch/ directory next to iso/ and os/, jigdo/ | 13:25 |
| poelcat | f13: i was thinking about doing them myself and putting them on fedorapeople page, but it would make more sense to have them in a central place | 13:25 |
| kanarip | these templates are still arch specific really | 13:25 |
| jwb | kanarip, that's actually what i meant, yes | 13:25 |
| f13 | kanarip: are you going to have the templates ready when we release it to mirrors? | 13:26 |
| f13 | kanarip: often times mirrors will sync release one, and never again. Getting content changed in the release tree is not trivial. | 13:26 |
| kanarip | f13, i can | 13:26 |
| kanarip | f13, i understand | 13:26 |
| kanarip | f13, for Fedora 9 (and t1-3) however including the jigdo file and templates would be relatively easy though, right? | 13:27 |
| f13 | again, it has to be ready at release time | 13:28 |
| kanarip | as long as the releases/ tree doesn't change during a release, right? | 13:28 |
| kanarip | right, i understand | 13:28 |
| f13 | will you have Everything templates ready at release time? | 13:28 |
| f13 | or rather, ready the 7~ days before release when we hand content off to be synced? | 13:29 |
| kanarip | if i can get some pre-release access to the released tree somehow, yes | 13:29 |
| EvilBob | once the ISOs are ready we can do the jigdo dance on them | 13:29 |
| f13 | is there a reason the templates have to be on the mirrors or in the release tree? Couldn't they be offered up elsewhere? | 13:30 |
| f13 | since we're not going to advertise it on get-fedora... | 13:30 |
| jwb | they could | 13:30 |
| kanarip | f13, is that the target? complete Everything/ Spins? | 13:30 |
| kanarip | f13, no reason to have the files in the release tree | 13:30 |
| kanarip | f13, spins.fp.org/jigdo is just as good | 13:30 |
| kanarip | anywhere actually | 13:31 |
| f13 | kanarip: well, if the board comes back and says they want CD versions of the Fedora spin, that just leaves Everything to worry about. | 13:31 |
| jwb | why would the board do that? | 13:32 |
| kanarip | because there is a number of users that wants the CD's, as the numbers of downloads from Fedora Unity spins have shown | 13:32 |
| f13 | jwb: because they feel there is still enough want/desire for that media, and if the project is going to produce tha tmedia and make it easily available, it should go through the same compose/QA processes that the other bits of the release goes though. | 13:33 |
| Southern_Gentlem | jwb because from our respins 20% of the downloads have been cd | 13:33 |
| jwb | so rel-eng was wrong | 13:33 |
| jwb | this is good. means we learned something | 13:33 |
| f13 | jwb: releng + the board. | 13:34 |
| f13 | jwb: not doing CD media wasn't our decision alone | 13:34 |
| jwb | sure | 13:34 |
| jwb | fedoraproject was wrong | 13:34 |
| jwb | :) | 13:34 |
| kanarip | +, now we have a way to potentially decrease the overhead these extra images take on mirror disc space | 13:35 |
| Southern_Gentlem | jwb no sense beating a dead horse | 13:35 |
| jwb | Southern_Gentlem, wasn't | 13:35 |
| kanarip | f13, concerning the footprint on the mirrors btw... i was wondering why most of them still carry FC1-FC5, is that ever going to expire? | 13:35 |
| f13 | kanarip: except that I don't feel comfortable /at/ /all/ not having the actual content on mirrors. | 13:35 |
| f13 | kanarip: it'll likely expire when the master expires it. | 13:36 |
| jwb | f13, some of the big mirrors actually run with those older versions | 13:36 |
| kanarip | f13, i understand, as i said none of this is mutually exclusive with current distribution methods | 13:36 |
| kanarip | i wouldn't want that either | 13:36 |
| kanarip | so what are we planning to do? release F9t1 with jigdo, after it's released create the jigdo files and publish them somewhere? | 13:39 |
| f13 | it seems to me that if we're hosting the jigdo files outside of the tree, they could be produced at any time right? | 13:39 |
| f13 | by any body? | 13:39 |
| kanarip | at any time, right | 13:40 |
| jwb | yes, as long as the content they're created against doesn't change | 13:40 |
| kanarip | by anybody, right | 13:40 |
| kanarip | jwb, +1 | 13:40 |
| jwb | i liked the idea of having them hosted on spins.fp.org | 13:40 |
| f13 | so then really, as far as releng is concerned, it's just business as usual no? We produce trees/isos, put them in expected places, somebody can come along and make jigdo files for them and add it to spins.fp.o | 13:41 |
| kanarip | f13, yes | 13:41 |
| jwb | i think so. have to do the board approval dance? | 13:41 |
| jeremy | shouldn't be any need | 13:42 |
| poelcat | in time though, if demand is high enough, mabye tag onto the end of the compose process by releng and then everything stays in sync and is automated? | 13:42 |
| jwb | jeremy, oh true | 13:42 |
| jeremy | poelcat: yeah. this lets us see what the real demand with a lower-weight process first | 13:42 |
| poelcat | wow, that makes too much sense :) | 13:43 |
| jeremy | I know. crazy, isn't it? | 13:43 |
| f13 | Proposal: Jigdo feature owner works on getting up spins.fp.o to be able to host jigdo files. Files are created out of band initially and hosted there. | 13:44 |
| f13 | +1 | 13:44 |
| jwb | +1 | 13:44 |
| jeremy | +1 | 13:45 |
| spot | +1 | 13:45 |
| kanarip | +1 | 13:45 |
| notting | +1 | 13:45 |
| jwb | poelcat, ? | 13:46 |
| poelcat | +1 | 13:46 |
| Southern_Gentlem | +1 | 13:46 |
| f13 | Southern_Gentlem: hey now... | 13:47 |
| EvilBob | lol | 13:47 |
| f13 | that's the majority of us, looks like it passes. | 13:47 |
| Southern_Gentlem | fyi http://f3dora.org/paste/555 you can see the demand for FU f8 cd jigdo | 13:48 |
| -!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Goals for F9 release | 13:48 | |
| f13 | Last week I had asked ya'll to think up some goals for the release cycle, so that we can file milestones in Trac to track progress and deadlines. | 13:48 |
| poelcat | Does gcc4.3 fit in here? | 13:48 |
| f13 | Did anybody come up with anything? I know I failed to file my signing server stuff. | 13:48 |
| jeremy | poelcat: it's a release feature, not anything rel-eng specific | 13:49 |
| jwb | i have a few things that are sort of rel-eng related | 13:49 |
| poelcat | jeremy: mass rebuild? | 13:49 |
| jwb | but it depends on the outcome of other discussions | 13:49 |
| f13 | poelcat: I'm thinking more regarding infrastructure changes or policy changes during the release. LIke introducing a signing server | 13:50 |
| jwb | f13, question for you... can the arch teams use trac as well? | 13:50 |
| * poelcat withdraws his suggestion and holds for later | 13:50 | |
| f13 | jwb: our rel-eng trac instance, or their own instance on fedora hosted projects? | 13:51 |
| jwb | either. though rel-eng would obviously be simpler overall | 13:51 |
| f13 | I don't see a reason to deny that. | 13:51 |
| poelcat | does "secondary arch" project already have a trac instance? | 13:52 |
| f13 | poelcat: I don't think so | 13:52 |
| jwb | poelcat, what secondary arch project? | 13:52 |
| jwb | :) | 13:52 |
| poelcat | lol | 13:52 |
| poelcat | jwb: i keep hearing things are happening in different places | 13:52 |
| jwb | f13, reason i ask is that i would think the 2ndary arch teams might want to "clone" some of the milestones you've already created | 13:52 |
| f13 | jwb: yeah, I don't know of a good way to do that in Trac. | 13:53 |
| jwb | ok, well new ones are fine too | 13:53 |
| f13 | I'd have to get a list of names to add the trac admins for this instance, but should be OK | 13:54 |
| jwb | ok | 13:55 |
| jwb | we'll work that out later | 13:55 |
| f13 | well... in the interest of actually getting something done today, is there anything else anybody would like to talk about? | 13:55 |
| -!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering - Open Discussion | 13:55 | |
| jwb | do we need to run the jidgo thing by fesco? | 13:56 |
| f13 | jwb: it's a proposed Feature | 13:57 |
| f13 | jwb: therefor it'll go through FESCo | 13:57 |
| jwb | oh, right | 13:57 |
| jwb | sorry | 13:57 |
| poelcat | f13: do we need a mass rebuild for gcc4.3 ? | 13:57 |
| f13 | poelcat: I haven't looked closely at the feature page, but we'll deal with that when it comes time to review all features | 13:57 |
| poelcat | f13: I'm not sure if their is a feature page | 13:58 |
| * poelcat can't spell | 13:58 | |
| f13 | poelcat: until there is, I'm not going to plan for a mass rebuild (: | 13:59 |
| poelcat | f13: :) this should get interesting | 13:59 |
| poelcat | when i asked Uli he said "it is just a complier" :) | 13:59 |
| f13 | poelcat: point him at the part of the feature planning where "would involve coordinating with large sets of other packages" | 14:00 |
| f13 | or that concept | 14:00 |
| * poelcat completely agrees | 14:00 | |
| poelcat | i'll work on this a little more then | 14:00 |
| jwb | poelcat, why did you ask Uli? | 14:01 |
| poelcat | jwb: i'm having internal meetings with each of the groups to see what they are thiking about or planning for F9 | 14:02 |
| jwb | isn't jakub the gcc maintainer? | 14:02 |
| poelcat | jwb: correct | 14:02 |
| jwb | did you ask jakub? | 14:02 |
| poelcat | jwb: i'm going to talk to him | 14:03 |
| jwb | poelcat, ok. there are certain things that could benefit from a rebuild with 4.3 | 14:03 |
| jwb | but i'll refrain from commenting on that since it wouldn't make sense overall | 14:03 |
| f13 | if there's nothing else... | 14:05 |
| -!- f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 14:06 | |
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