Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090121

quaid	<meeting id="Docs team">	14:01
* stickster here		14:02
* Sparks is present		14:02
* ke4qqq here		14:02
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --		14:02
DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 -- calling of the role
* danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes.		14:02
* jjmcd is here		14:02
* quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine		14:03
danielsmw	s/ine/ive	14:03
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-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --		14:04
DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and
beats
quaid	ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead?	14:05
ke4qqq	we are looking for a lead for relnotes	14:06
ke4qqq	decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding	14:06
stickster	There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there?	14:06
ke4qqq	we've had a few	14:06
ke4qqq	no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though	14:06
jjmcd	Isn't it more like under the bus	14:07
ke4qqq	jjmcd: that isn't until after release	14:07
stickster	When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility?	14:07
ke4qqq	FUDcon technically	14:08
ke4qqq	we should have a contingency plan methinks	14:08
* jsmith sneaks in late		14:08
Sparks	ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it.	14:08
stickster	I think the handoff is not as hard as people think	14:09
Sparks	The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some	14:09
activity on the page.
quaid	we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge	14:09
* ke4qqq shoves Sparks		14:09
stickster	Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person	14:09
ke4qqq	is that enough?	14:09
quaid	ha!	14:09
jjmcd	stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us -- kinda scary	14:10
quaid	how about this ....	14:10
quaid	what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11	14:10
quaid	and jjmcd and others who might be interested	14:10
quaid	commit to a Lt. role	14:10
quaid	and we rotate for F12	14:10
stickster	It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page	14:10
quaid	?	14:10
Sparks	quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation?  :)	14:10
stickster	Sparks: That's not a bad idea	14:10
* herlo is here today		14:10
quaid	Sparks: +10	14:10
* jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant"		14:10
* Sparks declares jsmith next.		14:10
jjmcd	Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12	14:11
Sparks	jjmcd: Works for me	14:11
stickster	Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do	14:11
away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with.
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ke4qqq	outstanding!	14:11
stickster	If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.	14:11
stickster	If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.	14:11
stickster	oops, sorry	14:11
Sparks	The page is at Documentation_Beats, by the way.	14:12
Sparks	If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11	14:12
stickster	jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw	14:13
stickster	Have the beats now been scrubbed?	14:13
stickster	Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away?	14:13
Sparks	stickster: The scrubbing is in progress	14:14
Sparks	stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases.	14:14
Sparks	I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable	14:14
quaid	it is page renaming that has to happen next :)	14:15
quaid	each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case.	14:15
stickster	IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh.	14:15
stickster	+1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content.	14:15
stickster	Good clarifications.	14:15
stickster	But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material.	14:16
quaid	right	14:16
stickster	It's time for some bold moves here.	14:16
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stickster	To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the	14:17
process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work?
Sparks	Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of?	14:17
quaid	on the first one ...	14:17
quaid	I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first	14:17
quaid	then we publicize like crazy	14:17
stickster	Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion	14:17
quaid	as for 2 ...	14:18
Sparks	I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form. That would make it real easy.	14:18
stickster	quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions)	14:18
quaid	it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier.	14:18
quaid	harveybetty was working on that, for example	14:18
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stickster	Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes.	14:18
Sparks	Okay	14:19
jjmcd	It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from	14:19
Missouri on that
stickster	Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new	14:19
feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open
Sparks	So give them a sandbox and let them go.	14:19
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stickster	Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town"	14:20
quaid	yeah	14:20
Sparks	stickster: Okay, well we can do that.	14:20
quaid	that might be enough of a template :)	14:20
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Sparks	Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done.	14:21
ke4qqq	can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether?	14:21
Sparks	We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such.	14:21
quaid	ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then	14:21
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quaid	ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree	14:22
quaid	ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out	14:22
quaid	we just have to suck that in	14:22
ke4qqq	surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it.	14:22
ke4qqq	ahhhh	14:22
ke4qqq	that's a bit easier	14:22
jjmcd	The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes	14:22
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jjmcd	Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools	14:23
quaid	no, it's true	14:23
Sparks	Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and	14:23
start advertising.
quaid	features are only highlighted groupings of changes	14:23
quaid	but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set	14:24
quaid	Sparks: +1	14:24
jjmcd	Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important	14:24
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Sparks	quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening. Shouldn't take long. Then we'll be ready.	14:25
* danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate.		14:25
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quaid	ok, ready to move on from release notes?	14:25
Sparks	+1	14:25
stickster	bam! pow!	14:25
ke4qqq	+1	14:25
jsmith	+0.98 (after inflation)	14:26
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herlo	+1	14:26
jjmcd	lets go	14:26
* herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :)		14:26
jsmith	herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p	14:27
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal		14:27
* jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient"		14:27
quaid	true dat	14:27
herlo	it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times	14:27
quaid	but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :)	14:27
* jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D		14:27
quaid	heh	14:27
Sparks	So I'm thinking Friday at... 2?	14:28
jds2001	lol	14:28
jjmcd	Would Friday at 4 be better?	14:28
quaid	Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for	14:28
herlo	+1	14:28
jds2001	unless you want FESCo clash :D	14:28
herlo	okay not really ^^	14:28
Sparks	quaid: True	14:28
ke4qqq	FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view?	14:28
jsmith	ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates?	14:29
Sparks	Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion.	14:29
ke4qqq	jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors	14:29
quaid	ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right?	14:30
Sparks	+1	14:30
jsmith	+1	14:30
stickster	Not against, +1	14:30
jjmcd	+1	14:30
stickster	We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time	14:31
Sparks	stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution.	14:31
quaid	no you got the right thing	14:32
quaid	FDSCo_meeting_matrix	14:32
quaid	Sparks made that and we can start populating it	14:32
stickster	awesome.	14:33
quaid	we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal	14:33
Sparks	yes	14:33
quaid	ok, then ...	14:33
quaid	anything else on this 'un?	14:33
Sparks	nope	14:34
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh		14:34
quaid	anyone not read my email to the list?	14:34
quaid	if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D	14:34
jjmcd	which email to which list?	14:34
quaid	jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l	14:34
jjmcd	ahhhhh	14:34
* Sparks commented on it		14:35
quaid	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html	14:35
* jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still		14:35
quaid	oh, interesting viewpoint	14:36
quaid	I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair	14:36
quaid	and that means at least that many who could be steering	14:36
quaid	in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition.	14:36
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jjmcd	Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course	14:37
quaid	we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck	14:37
ke4qqq	voter turnout in general does	14:37
jjmcd	Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier	14:37
jsmith	Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election	14:38
jjmcd	We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets	14:38
jjmcd	Roger that jsmith	14:38
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ke4qqq	I don't think there is really any alternative	14:39
Sparks	jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does.	14:39
quaid	yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :)	14:40
stickster	I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader.	14:41
* stickster sent overdue response to list		14:41
ke4qqq	stickster: will you explain why?	14:41
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ke4qqq	or should I read that in your email?	14:41
stickster	ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-)	14:42
stickster	I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee.	14:42
stickster	The number of votes is likely to be very small.	14:42
quaid	hmm	14:42
quaid	we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee?	14:42
Sparks	How many in the committee?	14:43
stickster	I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?".	14:43
ke4qqq	at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce??	14:43
Sparks	I don't think we need more than a handful of people.	14:43
ke4qqq	I tend to agree with that logic	14:43
ke4qqq	but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership	14:43
stickster	Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is	14:44
no SCo, but plenty is getting done.
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stickster	FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy.	14:44
Sparks	What is the election requirement? Just a leader or what?	14:44
stickster	Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC	14:45
meeting.
stickster	Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor.	14:45
jjmcd	I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or	14:45
whatever
quaid	it's fair view, though	14:45
stickster	I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree.	14:45
quaid	we did steering committee back then because that was the best way	14:45
quaid	things have evolved in the overall project, here too	14:45
stickster	(or even a few people, for that matter)	14:45
quaid	the main reason	14:45
stickster	quaid: Right.	14:45
quaid	for a steering committee formality	14:45
quaid	is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs"	14:46
quaid	and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively	14:46
stickster	I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment.	14:46
quaid	otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title.	14:46
stickster	Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead.	14:46
quaid	cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc.	14:46
quaid	(IMO)	14:47
* jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot"		14:47
jjmcd	yeah, good point. To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that	14:47
quaid	stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action	14:47
stickster	Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better.	14:47
stickster	quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though)	14:47
quaid	hmmm ... good stuff this	14:48
quaid	so where to next?	14:48
stickster	So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I	14:48
think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks"
quaid	stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election?	14:49
stickster	Yes.	14:49
* quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc.		14:49
jjmcd	Concensus can be kind of mushy	14:49
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ke4qqq	stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines	14:49
ke4qqq	I though election was a must?	14:49
stickster	ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject	14:50
stickster	Oops, scratch that.	14:50
stickster	That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower	14:50
stickster	this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way.	14:50
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stickster	A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X."	14:50
jjmcd	Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from?	14:51
stickster	Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects	14:51
quaid	jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :)	14:51
stickster	jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad)	14:51
from them
jjmcd	Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard	14:52
* stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now		14:52
* stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02		14:52
quaid	ok, so the deal is ...	14:52
quaid	we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules	14:52
quaid	Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement.	14:52
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quaid	we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see.	14:53
quaid	what I'd like to do ...	14:53
quaid	is decide _on_list_ how to proceed:	14:53
quaid	* elections or no	14:53
quaid	* steering or no	14:53
quaid	* sig or sub-proj	14:53
quaid	etc.	14:53
quaid	does that make sense?	14:54
Sparks	+1	14:54
jjmcd	Yes, let's suck in some other voices	14:54
Sparks	quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list. Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses.	14:54
jjmcd	This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful	14:55
quaid	can someone else ..	14:55
quaid	take a stab at explaining this via the list?	14:55
ke4qqq	lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I	14:55
like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined
Sparks	quaid: On it	14:55
quaid	Sparks: thx	14:55
Sparks	ke4qqq: Who is going to say that?	14:57
quaid	ok, time runneth short	14:58
ke4qqq	you can - didn't you say you were on it?	14:58
quaid	I think we have what we need on this topic, yes?	14:58
Sparks	+1	14:58
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ke4qqq	yes	14:58
jjmcd	yep	14:58
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like		14:59
quaid	two voices so far:	14:59
quaid	King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC	14:59
quaid	and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest	14:59
quaid	in supporting any PHP solution.	14:59
danielsmw	yup.	14:59
quaid	(with Drupal up on the list somewhere.)	15:00
* herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well		15:00
quaid	herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all	15:00
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quaid	the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross.	15:00
jsmith	herlo: I refuse to use Drupal. If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it.	15:01
* jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it		15:01
danielsmw	i've expressed interest in drupal before	15:01
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quaid	ok, that's the status :)	15:01
jsmith	herlo: Can I be more clear? I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS	15:01
danielsmw	but never really for a good reason	15:01
danielsmw	so i'm wondering	15:01
danielsmw	while we have some people here	15:01
herlo	jsmith: start licking	15:02
danielsmw	what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for?	15:02
quaid	ok	15:02
danielsmw	s/should/shouldn't/	15:02
quaid	since we are over our hour ...	15:02
quaid	can we take the CMS discussion	15:02
quaid	to #fedora-docs	15:02
danielsmw	+1	15:02
quaid	with the note for the record that ..	15:02
quaid	"more discussion on list"	15:02
jjmcd	R	15:02
quaid	ok then	15:02
quaid	R?	15:02
herlo	I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work. I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love	15:02
you man!
jjmcd	Roger	15:02
quaid	cool	15:02
jsmith	danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog	15:03
jsmith	danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL	15:03
jjmcd	Pefformance is my main beef	15:03
quaid	ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait	15:03
herlo	moving along?	15:03
jjmcd	Oui	15:03
quaid	closing I think yes	15:03
quaid	5	15:03
quaid	4	15:03
quaid	3	15:03
quaid	2	15:03
quaid	1	15:03
quaid	</meeting>	15:03