From Fedora Project Wiki
| quaid | <meeting id="Docs team"> | 14:01 |
|---|---|---|
| * stickster here | 14:02 | |
| * Sparks is present | 14:02 | |
| * ke4qqq here | 14:02 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- | 14:02 | |
| DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 -- calling of the role | ||
| * danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes. | 14:02 | |
| * jjmcd is here | 14:02 | |
| * quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine | 14:03 | |
| danielsmw | s/ine/ive | 14:03 |
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"] | 14:03 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- | 14:04 | |
| DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and | ||
| beats | ||
| quaid | ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead? | 14:05 |
| ke4qqq | we are looking for a lead for relnotes | 14:06 |
| ke4qqq | decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding | 14:06 |
| stickster | There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there? | 14:06 |
| ke4qqq | we've had a few | 14:06 |
| ke4qqq | no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though | 14:06 |
| jjmcd | Isn't it more like under the bus | 14:07 |
| ke4qqq | jjmcd: that isn't until after release | 14:07 |
| stickster | When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility? | 14:07 |
| ke4qqq | FUDcon technically | 14:08 |
| ke4qqq | we should have a contingency plan methinks | 14:08 |
| * jsmith sneaks in late | 14:08 | |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it. | 14:08 |
| stickster | I think the handoff is not as hard as people think | 14:09 |
| Sparks | The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some | 14:09 |
| activity on the page. | ||
| quaid | we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge | 14:09 |
| * ke4qqq shoves Sparks | 14:09 | |
| stickster | Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person | 14:09 |
| ke4qqq | is that enough? | 14:09 |
| quaid | ha! | 14:09 |
| jjmcd | stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us -- kinda scary | 14:10 |
| quaid | how about this .... | 14:10 |
| quaid | what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11 | 14:10 |
| quaid | and jjmcd and others who might be interested | 14:10 |
| quaid | commit to a Lt. role | 14:10 |
| quaid | and we rotate for F12 | 14:10 |
| stickster | It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page | 14:10 |
| quaid | ? | 14:10 |
| Sparks | quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation? :) | 14:10 |
| stickster | Sparks: That's not a bad idea | 14:10 |
| * herlo is here today | 14:10 | |
| quaid | Sparks: +10 | 14:10 |
| * jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant" | 14:10 | |
| * Sparks declares jsmith next. | 14:10 | |
| jjmcd | Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12 | 14:11 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Works for me | 14:11 |
| stickster | Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do | 14:11 |
| away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with. | ||
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| ke4qqq | outstanding! | 14:11 |
| stickster | If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. | 14:11 |
| stickster | If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. | 14:11 |
| stickster | oops, sorry | 14:11 |
| Sparks | The page is at Documentation_Beats by the way. | 14:12 |
| Sparks | If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11 | 14:12 |
| stickster | jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw | 14:13 |
| stickster | Have the beats now been scrubbed? | 14:13 |
| stickster | Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away? | 14:13 |
| Sparks | stickster: The scrubbing is in progress | 14:14 |
| Sparks | stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases. | 14:14 |
| Sparks | I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable | 14:14 |
| quaid | it is page renaming that has to happen next :) | 14:15 |
| quaid | each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case. | 14:15 |
| stickster | IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh. | 14:15 |
| stickster | +1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content. | 14:15 |
| stickster | Good clarifications. | 14:15 |
| stickster | But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material. | 14:16 |
| quaid | right | 14:16 |
| stickster | It's time for some bold moves here. | 14:16 |
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| stickster | To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the | 14:17 |
| process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work? | ||
| Sparks | Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of? | 14:17 |
| quaid | on the first one ... | 14:17 |
| quaid | I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first | 14:17 |
| quaid | then we publicize like crazy | 14:17 |
| stickster | Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion | 14:17 |
| quaid | as for 2 ... | 14:18 |
| Sparks | I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form. That would make it real easy. | 14:18 |
| stickster | quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions) | 14:18 |
| quaid | it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier. | 14:18 |
| quaid | harveybetty was working on that, for example | 14:18 |
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| stickster | Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes. | 14:18 |
| Sparks | Okay | 14:19 |
| jjmcd | It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from | 14:19 |
| Missouri on that | ||
| stickster | Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new | 14:19 |
| feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open | ||
| Sparks | So give them a sandbox and let them go. | 14:19 |
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 14:20 | |
| stickster | Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town" | 14:20 |
| quaid | yeah | 14:20 |
| Sparks | stickster: Okay, well we can do that. | 14:20 |
| quaid | that might be enough of a template :) | 14:20 |
| -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@user-24-214-179-165.knology.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] | 14:20 | |
| Sparks | Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done. | 14:21 |
| ke4qqq | can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether? | 14:21 |
| Sparks | We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such. | 14:21 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then | 14:21 |
| -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD1623.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 14:21 | |
| quaid | ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree | 14:22 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out | 14:22 |
| quaid | we just have to suck that in | 14:22 |
| ke4qqq | surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it. | 14:22 |
| ke4qqq | ahhhh | 14:22 |
| ke4qqq | that's a bit easier | 14:22 |
| jjmcd | The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes | 14:22 |
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| jjmcd | Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools | 14:23 |
| quaid | no, it's true | 14:23 |
| Sparks | Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and | 14:23 |
| start advertising. | ||
| quaid | features are only highlighted groupings of changes | 14:23 |
| quaid | but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set | 14:24 |
| quaid | Sparks: +1 | 14:24 |
| jjmcd | Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important | 14:24 |
| -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@130-127-20-68.mauldin.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting | 14:24 | |
| Sparks | quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening. Shouldn't take long. Then we'll be ready. | 14:25 |
| * danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate. | 14:25 | |
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| quaid | ok, ready to move on from release notes? | 14:25 |
| Sparks | +1 | 14:25 |
| stickster | bam! pow! | 14:25 |
| ke4qqq | +1 | 14:25 |
| jsmith | +0.98 (after inflation) | 14:26 |
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| herlo | +1 | 14:26 |
| jjmcd | lets go | 14:26 |
| * herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :) | 14:26 | |
| jsmith | herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p | 14:27 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal | 14:27 | |
| * jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient" | 14:27 | |
| quaid | true dat | 14:27 |
| herlo | it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times | 14:27 |
| quaid | but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :) | 14:27 |
| * jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D | 14:27 | |
| quaid | heh | 14:27 |
| Sparks | So I'm thinking Friday at... 2? | 14:28 |
| jds2001 | lol | 14:28 |
| jjmcd | Would Friday at 4 be better? | 14:28 |
| quaid | Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for | 14:28 |
| herlo | +1 | 14:28 |
| jds2001 | unless you want FESCo clash :D | 14:28 |
| herlo | okay not really ^^ | 14:28 |
| Sparks | quaid: True | 14:28 |
| ke4qqq | FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view? | 14:28 |
| jsmith | ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates? | 14:29 |
| Sparks | Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion. | 14:29 |
| ke4qqq | jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors | 14:29 |
| quaid | ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right? | 14:30 |
| Sparks | +1 | 14:30 |
| jsmith | +1 | 14:30 |
| stickster | Not against, +1 | 14:30 |
| jjmcd | +1 | 14:30 |
| stickster | We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time | 14:31 |
| Sparks | stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution. | 14:31 |
| quaid | no you got the right thing | 14:32 |
| quaid | FDSCo_meeting_matrix | 14:32 |
| quaid | Sparks made that and we can start populating it | 14:32 |
| stickster | awesome. | 14:33 |
| quaid | we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal | 14:33 |
| Sparks | yes | 14:33 |
| quaid | ok, then ... | 14:33 |
| quaid | anything else on this 'un? | 14:33 |
| Sparks | nope | 14:34 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh | 14:34 | |
| quaid | anyone not read my email to the list? | 14:34 |
| quaid | if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D | 14:34 |
| jjmcd | which email to which list? | 14:34 |
| quaid | jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l | 14:34 |
| jjmcd | ahhhhh | 14:34 |
| * Sparks commented on it | 14:35 | |
| quaid | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html | 14:35 |
| * jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still | 14:35 | |
| quaid | oh, interesting viewpoint | 14:36 |
| quaid | I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair | 14:36 |
| quaid | and that means at least that many who could be steering | 14:36 |
| quaid | in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition. | 14:36 |
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| -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk | 14:36 | |
| jjmcd | Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course | 14:37 |
| quaid | we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck | 14:37 |
| ke4qqq | voter turnout in general does | 14:37 |
| jjmcd | Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier | 14:37 |
| jsmith | Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election | 14:38 |
| jjmcd | We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets | 14:38 |
| jjmcd | Roger that jsmith | 14:38 |
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| ke4qqq | I don't think there is really any alternative | 14:39 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does. | 14:39 |
| quaid | yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :) | 14:40 |
| stickster | I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader. | 14:41 |
| * stickster sent overdue response to list | 14:41 | |
| ke4qqq | stickster: will you explain why? | 14:41 |
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| ke4qqq | or should I read that in your email? | 14:41 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-) | 14:42 |
| stickster | I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee. | 14:42 |
| stickster | The number of votes is likely to be very small. | 14:42 |
| quaid | hmm | 14:42 |
| quaid | we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee? | 14:42 |
| Sparks | How many in the committee? | 14:43 |
| stickster | I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?". | 14:43 |
| ke4qqq | at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce?? | 14:43 |
| Sparks | I don't think we need more than a handful of people. | 14:43 |
| ke4qqq | I tend to agree with that logic | 14:43 |
| ke4qqq | but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership | 14:43 |
| stickster | Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is | 14:44 |
| no SCo, but plenty is getting done. | ||
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| stickster | FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy. | 14:44 |
| Sparks | What is the election requirement? Just a leader or what? | 14:44 |
| stickster | Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC | 14:45 |
| meeting. | ||
| stickster | Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor. | 14:45 |
| jjmcd | I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or | 14:45 |
| whatever | ||
| quaid | it's fair view, though | 14:45 |
| stickster | I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree. | 14:45 |
| quaid | we did steering committee back then because that was the best way | 14:45 |
| quaid | things have evolved in the overall project, here too | 14:45 |
| stickster | (or even a few people, for that matter) | 14:45 |
| quaid | the main reason | 14:45 |
| stickster | quaid: Right. | 14:45 |
| quaid | for a steering committee formality | 14:45 |
| quaid | is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs" | 14:46 |
| quaid | and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively | 14:46 |
| stickster | I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment. | 14:46 |
| quaid | otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title. | 14:46 |
| stickster | Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead. | 14:46 |
| quaid | cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc. | 14:46 |
| quaid | (IMO) | 14:47 |
| * jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot" | 14:47 | |
| jjmcd | yeah, good point. To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that | 14:47 |
| quaid | stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action | 14:47 |
| stickster | Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better. | 14:47 |
| stickster | quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though) | 14:47 |
| quaid | hmmm ... good stuff this | 14:48 |
| quaid | so where to next? | 14:48 |
| stickster | So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I | 14:48 |
| think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks" | ||
| quaid | stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election? | 14:49 |
| stickster | Yes. | 14:49 |
| * quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc. | 14:49 | |
| jjmcd | Concensus can be kind of mushy | 14:49 |
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| ke4qqq | stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines | 14:49 |
| ke4qqq | I though election was a must? | 14:49 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject | 14:50 |
| stickster | Oops, scratch that. | 14:50 |
| stickster | That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower | 14:50 |
| stickster | this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way. | 14:50 |
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| stickster | A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X." | 14:50 |
| jjmcd | Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from? | 14:51 |
| stickster | Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects | 14:51 |
| quaid | jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :) | 14:51 |
| stickster | jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad) | 14:51 |
| from them | ||
| jjmcd | Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard | 14:52 |
| * stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now | 14:52 | |
| * stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02 | 14:52 | |
| quaid | ok, so the deal is ... | 14:52 |
| quaid | we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules | 14:52 |
| quaid | Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement. | 14:52 |
| -!- stickster is now known as stickster_mtg | 14:52 | |
| quaid | we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see. | 14:53 |
| quaid | what I'd like to do ... | 14:53 |
| quaid | is decide _on_list_ how to proceed: | 14:53 |
| quaid | * elections or no | 14:53 |
| quaid | * steering or no | 14:53 |
| quaid | * sig or sub-proj | 14:53 |
| quaid | etc. | 14:53 |
| quaid | does that make sense? | 14:54 |
| Sparks | +1 | 14:54 |
| jjmcd | Yes, let's suck in some other voices | 14:54 |
| Sparks | quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list. Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses. | 14:54 |
| jjmcd | This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful | 14:55 |
| quaid | can someone else .. | 14:55 |
| quaid | take a stab at explaining this via the list? | 14:55 |
| ke4qqq | lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I | 14:55 |
| like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined | ||
| Sparks | quaid: On it | 14:55 |
| quaid | Sparks: thx | 14:55 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Who is going to say that? | 14:57 |
| quaid | ok, time runneth short | 14:58 |
| ke4qqq | you can - didn't you say you were on it? | 14:58 |
| quaid | I think we have what we need on this topic, yes? | 14:58 |
| Sparks | +1 | 14:58 |
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| ke4qqq | yes | 14:58 |
| jjmcd | yep | 14:58 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like | 14:59 | |
| quaid | two voices so far: | 14:59 |
| quaid | King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC | 14:59 |
| quaid | and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest | 14:59 |
| quaid | in supporting any PHP solution. | 14:59 |
| danielsmw | yup. | 14:59 |
| quaid | (with Drupal up on the list somewhere.) | 15:00 |
| * herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well | 15:00 | |
| quaid | herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all | 15:00 |
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| quaid | the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross. | 15:00 |
| jsmith | herlo: I refuse to use Drupal. If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it. | 15:01 |
| * jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it | 15:01 | |
| danielsmw | i've expressed interest in drupal before | 15:01 |
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| quaid | ok, that's the status :) | 15:01 |
| jsmith | herlo: Can I be more clear? I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS | 15:01 |
| danielsmw | but never really for a good reason | 15:01 |
| danielsmw | so i'm wondering | 15:01 |
| danielsmw | while we have some people here | 15:01 |
| herlo | jsmith: start licking | 15:02 |
| danielsmw | what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for? | 15:02 |
| quaid | ok | 15:02 |
| danielsmw | s/should/shouldn't/ | 15:02 |
| quaid | since we are over our hour ... | 15:02 |
| quaid | can we take the CMS discussion | 15:02 |
| quaid | to #fedora-docs | 15:02 |
| danielsmw | +1 | 15:02 |
| quaid | with the note for the record that .. | 15:02 |
| quaid | "more discussion on list" | 15:02 |
| jjmcd | R | 15:02 |
| quaid | ok then | 15:02 |
| quaid | R? | 15:02 |
| herlo | I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work. I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love | 15:02 |
| you man! | ||
| jjmcd | Roger | 15:02 |
| quaid | cool | 15:02 |
| jsmith | danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog | 15:03 |
| jsmith | danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL | 15:03 |
| jjmcd | Pefformance is my main beef | 15:03 |
| quaid | ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait | 15:03 |
| herlo | moving along? | 15:03 |
| jjmcd | Oui | 15:03 |
| quaid | closing I think yes | 15:03 |
| quaid | 5 | 15:03 |
| quaid | 4 | 15:03 |
| quaid | 3 | 15:03 |
| quaid | 2 | 15:03 |
| quaid | 1 | 15:03 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 15:03 |