Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090121

Meeting

quaid	<meeting id="Docs team">	<a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a>
* stickster here		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
* Sparks is present		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
* ke4qqq here		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008</a> -- calling of the role
* danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes.		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
* jjmcd is here		<a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a>
* quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine		<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>
danielsmw	s/ine/ive	<a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a>
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-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --		<a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a>
<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008</a> -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and
beats
quaid	ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead?	<a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a>
ke4qqq	we are looking for a lead for relnotes	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
ke4qqq	decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
stickster	There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there?	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
ke4qqq	we've had a few	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
ke4qqq	no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though	<a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a>
jjmcd	Isn't it more like under the bus	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
ke4qqq	jjmcd: that isn't until after release	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
stickster	When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility?	<a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a>
ke4qqq	FUDcon technically	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
ke4qqq	we should have a contingency plan methinks	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
* jsmith sneaks in late		<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
Sparks	ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it.	<a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a>
stickster	I think the handoff is not as hard as people think	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
Sparks	The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
activity on the page.
quaid	we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
* ke4qqq shoves Sparks		<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
stickster	Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
ke4qqq	is that enough?	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
quaid	ha!	<a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a>
jjmcd	stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us  --  kinda scary	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	how about this ....	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	and jjmcd and others who might be interested	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	commit to a Lt. role	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	and we rotate for F12	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
stickster	It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	?	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
Sparks	quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation?  :)	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
stickster	Sparks: That's not a bad idea	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
* herlo is here today		<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
quaid	Sparks: +10	<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
* jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant"		<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
* Sparks declares jsmith next.		<a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a>
jjmcd	Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
Sparks	jjmcd: Works for me	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
stickster	Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with.
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ke4qqq	outstanding!	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
stickster	If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
stickster	If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
stickster	oops, sorry	<a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a>
Sparks	The page is at <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats,">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats,</a> by the way.	<a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a>
Sparks	If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11	<a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a>
stickster	jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
stickster	Have the beats now been scrubbed?	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
stickster	Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away?	<a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a>
Sparks	stickster: The scrubbing is in progress	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
Sparks	stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases.	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
Sparks	I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable	<a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a>
quaid	it is page renaming that has to happen next :)	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
quaid	each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
stickster	IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
stickster	+1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
stickster	Good clarifications.	<a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a>
stickster	But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material.	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
quaid	right	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
stickster	It's time for some bold moves here.	<a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a>
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stickster	To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work?
Sparks	Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of?	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
quaid	on the first one ...	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
quaid	I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
quaid	then we publicize like crazy	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
stickster	Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion	<a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a>
quaid	as for 2 ...	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
Sparks	I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form.  That would make it real easy.	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
stickster	quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions)	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
quaid	it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier.	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
quaid	harveybetty was working on that, for example	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
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stickster	Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes.	<a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a>
Sparks	Okay	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
jjmcd	It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
Missouri on that
stickster	Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open
Sparks	So give them a sandbox and let them go.	<a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a>
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stickster	Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town"	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
quaid	yeah	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
Sparks	stickster: Okay, well we can do that.	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
quaid	that might be enough of a template :)	<a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>
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Sparks	Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
ke4qqq	can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether?	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
Sparks	We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such.	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
quaid	ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then	<a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>
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quaid	ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
quaid	ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
quaid	we just have to suck that in	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
ke4qqq	surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it.	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
ke4qqq	ahhhh	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
ke4qqq	that's a bit easier	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
jjmcd	The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes	<a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a>
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jjmcd	Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
quaid	no, it's true	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
Sparks	Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
start advertising.
quaid	features are only highlighted groupings of changes	<a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a>
quaid	but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set	<a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a>
quaid	Sparks: +1	<a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a>
jjmcd	Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important	<a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a>
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Sparks	quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening.  Shouldn't take long.  Then we'll be ready.	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
* danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate.		<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
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quaid	ok, ready to move on from release notes?	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
Sparks	+1	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
stickster	bam! pow!	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
ke4qqq	+1	<a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a>
jsmith	+0.98 (after inflation)	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
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herlo	+1	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
jjmcd	lets go	<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
* herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :)		<a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a>
jsmith	herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal		<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
* jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient"		<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
quaid	true dat	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
herlo	it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
quaid	but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :)	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
* jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D		<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
quaid	heh	<a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a>
Sparks	So I'm thinking Friday at... 2?	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
jds2001	lol	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
jjmcd	Would Friday at 4 be better?	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
quaid	Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
herlo	+1	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
jds2001	unless you want FESCo clash :D	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
herlo	okay not really ^^	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
Sparks	quaid: True	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
ke4qqq	FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view?	<a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>
jsmith	ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates?	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
Sparks	Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion.	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
ke4qqq	jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors	<a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>
quaid	ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right?	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
Sparks	+1	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
jsmith	+1	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
stickster	Not against, +1	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
jjmcd	+1	<a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a>
stickster	We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
Sparks	stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution.	<a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a>
quaid	no you got the right thing	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
quaid	<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix</a>	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
quaid	Sparks made that and we can start populating it	<a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a>
stickster	awesome.	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
quaid	we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
Sparks	yes	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
quaid	ok, then ...	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
quaid	anything else on this 'un?	<a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>
Sparks	nope	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh		<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
quaid	anyone not read my email to the list?	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
quaid	if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
jjmcd	which email to which list?	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
quaid	jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
jjmcd	ahhhhh	<a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a>
* Sparks commented on it		<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
quaid	<a href="http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html">http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html</a>	<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
* jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still		<a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a>
quaid	oh, interesting viewpoint	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
quaid	I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
quaid	and that means at least that many who could be steering	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
quaid	in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition.	<a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a>
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jjmcd	Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
quaid	we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
ke4qqq	voter turnout in general does	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
jjmcd	Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier	<a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a>
jsmith	Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election	<a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a>
jjmcd	We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets	<a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a>
jjmcd	Roger that jsmith	<a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a>
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ke4qqq	I don't think there is really any alternative	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
Sparks	jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does.	<a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a>
quaid	yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :)	<a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a>
stickster	I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader.	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
* stickster sent overdue response to list		<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
ke4qqq	stickster: will you explain why?	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
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ke4qqq	or should I read that in your email?	<a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a>
stickster	ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-)	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
stickster	I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee.	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
stickster	The number of votes is likely to be very small.	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
quaid	hmm	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
quaid	we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee?	<a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a>
Sparks	How many in the committee?	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
stickster	I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?".	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
ke4qqq	at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce??	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
Sparks	I don't think we need more than a handful of people.	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
ke4qqq	I tend to agree with that logic	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
ke4qqq	but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership	<a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a>
stickster	Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
no SCo, but plenty is getting done.
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stickster	FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy.	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
Sparks	What is the election requirement?  Just a leader or what?	<a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>
stickster	Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
meeting.
stickster	Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor.	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
jjmcd	I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
whatever
quaid	it's fair view, though	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
stickster	I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree.	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
quaid	we did steering committee back then because that was the best way	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
quaid	things have evolved in the overall project, here too	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
stickster	(or even a few people, for that matter)	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
quaid	the main reason	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
stickster	quaid: Right.	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
quaid	for a steering committee formality	<a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a>
quaid	is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs"	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
quaid	and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
stickster	I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment.	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
quaid	otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title.	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
stickster	Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead.	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
quaid	cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc.	<a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a>
quaid	(IMO)	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
* jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot"		<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
jjmcd	yeah, good point.  To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
quaid	stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
stickster	Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better.	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
stickster	quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though)	<a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a>
quaid	hmmm ... good stuff this	<a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a>
quaid	so where to next?	<a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a>
stickster	So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I	<a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a>
think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks"
quaid	stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election?	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
stickster	Yes.	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
* quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc.		<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
jjmcd	Concensus can be kind of mushy	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
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ke4qqq	stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
ke4qqq	I though election was a must?	<a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a>
stickster	ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
stickster	Oops, scratch that.	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
stickster	That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
stickster	this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way.	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
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stickster	A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X."	<a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a>
jjmcd	Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from?	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
stickster	<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects</a>	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
quaid	jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :)	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
stickster	jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad)	<a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a>
from them
jjmcd	Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
* stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now		<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
* stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02		<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
quaid	ok, so the deal is ...	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
quaid	we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
quaid	Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement.	<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
-!- stickster is now known as stickster_mtg		<a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a>
quaid	we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see.	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	what I'd like to do ...	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	is decide _on_list_ how to proceed:	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	* elections or no	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	* steering or no	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	* sig or sub-proj	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	etc.	<a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a>
quaid	does that make sense?	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
Sparks	+1	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jjmcd	Yes, let's suck in some other voices	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
Sparks	quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list.  Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses.	<a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>
jjmcd	This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
quaid	can someone else ..	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
quaid	take a stab at explaining this via the list?	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
ke4qqq	lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined
Sparks	quaid: On it	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
quaid	Sparks: thx	<a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a>
Sparks	ke4qqq: Who is going to say that?	<a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a>
quaid	ok, time runneth short	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
ke4qqq	you can - didn't you say you were on it?	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
quaid	I think we have what we need on this topic, yes?	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
Sparks	+1	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
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ke4qqq	yes	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
jjmcd	yep	<a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like		<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
quaid	two voices so far:	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
quaid	King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
quaid	and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
quaid	in supporting any PHP solution.	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
danielsmw	yup.	<a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a>
quaid	(with Drupal up on the list somewhere.)	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
* herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well		<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
quaid	herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
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quaid	the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross.	<a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a>
jsmith	herlo: I refuse to use Drupal.  If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it.	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
* jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it		<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
danielsmw	i've expressed interest in drupal before	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
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quaid	ok, that's the status :)	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
jsmith	herlo: Can I be more clear?  I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
danielsmw	but never really for a good reason	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
danielsmw	so i'm wondering	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
danielsmw	while we have some people here	<a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a>
herlo	jsmith: start licking	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
danielsmw	what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for?	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	ok	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
danielsmw	s/should/shouldn't/	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	since we are over our hour ...	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	can we take the CMS discussion	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	to #fedora-docs	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
danielsmw	+1	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	with the note for the record that ..	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	"more discussion on list"	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
jjmcd	R	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	ok then	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	R?	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
herlo	I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work.  I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
you man!
jjmcd	Roger	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
quaid	cool	<a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a>
jsmith	danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
jsmith	danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
jjmcd	Pefformance is my main beef	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
herlo	moving along?	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
jjmcd	Oui	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	closing I think yes	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	5	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	4	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	3	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	2	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	1	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>
quaid	</meeting>	<a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a>