From Fedora Project Wiki
Meeting
| quaid | <meeting id="Docs team"> | <a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a> |
|---|---|---|
| * stickster here | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| * Sparks is present | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| * ke4qqq here | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008</a> -- calling of the role | ||
| * danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes. | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| * jjmcd is here | <a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a> | |
| * quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine | <a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a> | |
| danielsmw | s/ine/ive | <a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a> |
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"] | <a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a> | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- | <a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a> | |
| <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008</a> -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and | ||
| beats | ||
| quaid | ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead? | <a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a> |
| ke4qqq | we are looking for a lead for relnotes | <a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a> |
| ke4qqq | decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding | <a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a> |
| stickster | There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there? | <a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a> |
| ke4qqq | we've had a few | <a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a> |
| ke4qqq | no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though | <a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a> |
| jjmcd | Isn't it more like under the bus | <a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a> |
| ke4qqq | jjmcd: that isn't until after release | <a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a> |
| stickster | When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility? | <a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a> |
| ke4qqq | FUDcon technically | <a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a> |
| ke4qqq | we should have a contingency plan methinks | <a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a> |
| * jsmith sneaks in late | <a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a> | |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it. | <a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a> |
| stickster | I think the handoff is not as hard as people think | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| Sparks | The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| activity on the page. | ||
| quaid | we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| * ke4qqq shoves Sparks | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> | |
| stickster | Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| ke4qqq | is that enough? | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| quaid | ha! | <a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a> |
| jjmcd | stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us -- kinda scary | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | how about this .... | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11 | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | and jjmcd and others who might be interested | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | commit to a Lt. role | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | and we rotate for F12 | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| stickster | It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| quaid | ? | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| Sparks | quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation? :) | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| stickster | Sparks: That's not a bad idea | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| * herlo is here today | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> | |
| quaid | Sparks: +10 | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> |
| * jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant" | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> | |
| * Sparks declares jsmith next. | <a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a> | |
| jjmcd | Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12 | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Works for me | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| stickster | Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with. | ||
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> | |
| ke4qqq | outstanding! | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| stickster | If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| stickster | If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| stickster | oops, sorry | <a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a> |
| Sparks | The page is at <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats,">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats,</a> by the way. | <a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a> |
| Sparks | If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11 | <a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a> |
| stickster | jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw | <a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a> |
| stickster | Have the beats now been scrubbed? | <a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a> |
| stickster | Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away? | <a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a> |
| Sparks | stickster: The scrubbing is in progress | <a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a> |
| Sparks | stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases. | <a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a> |
| Sparks | I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable | <a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a> |
| quaid | it is page renaming that has to happen next :) | <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> |
| quaid | each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case. | <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> |
| stickster | IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh. | <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> |
| stickster | +1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content. | <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> |
| stickster | Good clarifications. | <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> |
| stickster | But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material. | <a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a> |
| quaid | right | <a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a> |
| stickster | It's time for some bold moves here. | <a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a> |
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| -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@mail.thepcagroup.com] has quit [Client Quit] | <a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a> | |
| stickster | To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work? | ||
| Sparks | Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of? | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| quaid | on the first one ... | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| quaid | I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| quaid | then we publicize like crazy | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| stickster | Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion | <a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a> |
| quaid | as for 2 ... | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| Sparks | I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form. That would make it real easy. | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| stickster | quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions) | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| quaid | it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier. | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| quaid | harveybetty was working on that, for example | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@rrcs-72-43-197-222.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> | |
| stickster | Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes. | <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> |
| Sparks | Okay | <a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a> |
| jjmcd | It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from | <a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a> |
| Missouri on that | ||
| stickster | Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new | <a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a> |
| feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open | ||
| Sparks | So give them a sandbox and let them go. | <a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a> |
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> | |
| stickster | Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town" | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> |
| quaid | yeah | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> |
| Sparks | stickster: Okay, well we can do that. | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> |
| quaid | that might be enough of a template :) | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> |
| -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@user-24-214-179-165.knology.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] | <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a> | |
| Sparks | Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done. | <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a> |
| ke4qqq | can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether? | <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a> |
| Sparks | We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such. | <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a> |
| quaid | ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then | <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a> |
| -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@p4FDD1623.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a> | |
| quaid | ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| quaid | ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| quaid | we just have to suck that in | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| ke4qqq | surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it. | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| ke4qqq | ahhhh | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| ke4qqq | that's a bit easier | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| jjmcd | The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes | <a href="#t14:22" class="time">14:22</a> |
| -!- mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a> | |
| jjmcd | Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools | <a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a> |
| quaid | no, it's true | <a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a> |
| Sparks | Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and | <a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a> |
| start advertising. | ||
| quaid | features are only highlighted groupings of changes | <a href="#t14:23" class="time">14:23</a> |
| quaid | but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set | <a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a> |
| quaid | Sparks: +1 | <a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a> |
| jjmcd | Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important | <a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a> |
| -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@130-127-20-68.mauldin.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:24" class="time">14:24</a> | |
| Sparks | quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening. Shouldn't take long. Then we'll be ready. | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> |
| * danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate. | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> | |
| -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@rrcs-72-43-197-222.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> | |
| quaid | ok, ready to move on from release notes? | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> |
| Sparks | +1 | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> |
| stickster | bam! pow! | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> |
| ke4qqq | +1 | <a href="#t14:25" class="time">14:25</a> |
| jsmith | +0.98 (after inflation) | <a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a> |
| -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a> | |
| herlo | +1 | <a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a> |
| jjmcd | lets go | <a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a> |
| * herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :) | <a href="#t14:26" class="time">14:26</a> | |
| jsmith | herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> | |
| * jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient" | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> | |
| quaid | true dat | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> |
| herlo | it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> |
| quaid | but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :) | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> |
| * jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> | |
| quaid | heh | <a href="#t14:27" class="time">14:27</a> |
| Sparks | So I'm thinking Friday at... 2? | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| jds2001 | lol | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| jjmcd | Would Friday at 4 be better? | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| quaid | Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| herlo | +1 | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| jds2001 | unless you want FESCo clash :D | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| herlo | okay not really ^^ | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| Sparks | quaid: True | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| ke4qqq | FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view? | <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> |
| jsmith | ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates? | <a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a> |
| Sparks | Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion. | <a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a> |
| ke4qqq | jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors | <a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a> |
| quaid | ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right? | <a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a> |
| Sparks | +1 | <a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a> |
| jsmith | +1 | <a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a> |
| stickster | Not against, +1 | <a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a> |
| jjmcd | +1 | <a href="#t14:30" class="time">14:30</a> |
| stickster | We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time | <a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a> |
| Sparks | stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution. | <a href="#t14:31" class="time">14:31</a> |
| quaid | no you got the right thing | <a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a> |
| quaid | <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix</a> | <a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a> |
| quaid | Sparks made that and we can start populating it | <a href="#t14:32" class="time">14:32</a> |
| stickster | awesome. | <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a> |
| quaid | we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal | <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a> |
| Sparks | yes | <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a> |
| quaid | ok, then ... | <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a> |
| quaid | anything else on this 'un? | <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a> |
| Sparks | nope | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> | |
| quaid | anyone not read my email to the list? | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| quaid | if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| jjmcd | which email to which list? | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| quaid | jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| jjmcd | ahhhhh | <a href="#t14:34" class="time">14:34</a> |
| * Sparks commented on it | <a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a> | |
| quaid | <a href="http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html">http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html</a> | <a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a> |
| * jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still | <a href="#t14:35" class="time">14:35</a> | |
| quaid | oh, interesting viewpoint | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> |
| quaid | I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> |
| quaid | and that means at least that many who could be steering | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> |
| quaid | in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition. | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> |
| -!- J5 [n=quintice@nat/redhat/x-4b4a82606c3ac184] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> | |
| -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk | <a href="#t14:36" class="time">14:36</a> | |
| jjmcd | Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course | <a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a> |
| quaid | we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck | <a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a> |
| ke4qqq | voter turnout in general does | <a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a> |
| jjmcd | Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier | <a href="#t14:37" class="time">14:37</a> |
| jsmith | Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election | <a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a> |
| jjmcd | We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets | <a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a> |
| jjmcd | Roger that jsmith | <a href="#t14:38" class="time">14:38</a> |
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| ke4qqq | I don't think there is really any alternative | <a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a> |
| Sparks | jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does. | <a href="#t14:39" class="time">14:39</a> |
| quaid | yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :) | <a href="#t14:40" class="time">14:40</a> |
| stickster | I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader. | <a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a> |
| * stickster sent overdue response to list | <a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a> | |
| ke4qqq | stickster: will you explain why? | <a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a> |
| -!- QuickStart [n=QUICKSTA@pool-72-88-190-6.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | <a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a> | |
| ke4qqq | or should I read that in your email? | <a href="#t14:41" class="time">14:41</a> |
| stickster | ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-) | <a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a> |
| stickster | I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee. | <a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a> |
| stickster | The number of votes is likely to be very small. | <a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a> |
| quaid | hmm | <a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a> |
| quaid | we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee? | <a href="#t14:42" class="time">14:42</a> |
| Sparks | How many in the committee? | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| stickster | I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?". | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| ke4qqq | at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce?? | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| Sparks | I don't think we need more than a handful of people. | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| ke4qqq | I tend to agree with that logic | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| ke4qqq | but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership | <a href="#t14:43" class="time">14:43</a> |
| stickster | Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is | <a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a> |
| no SCo, but plenty is getting done. | ||
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| stickster | FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy. | <a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a> |
| Sparks | What is the election requirement? Just a leader or what? | <a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a> |
| stickster | Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| meeting. | ||
| stickster | Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor. | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| jjmcd | I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| whatever | ||
| quaid | it's fair view, though | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| stickster | I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree. | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| quaid | we did steering committee back then because that was the best way | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| quaid | things have evolved in the overall project, here too | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| stickster | (or even a few people, for that matter) | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| quaid | the main reason | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| stickster | quaid: Right. | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| quaid | for a steering committee formality | <a href="#t14:45" class="time">14:45</a> |
| quaid | is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs" | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| quaid | and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| stickster | I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment. | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| quaid | otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title. | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| stickster | Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead. | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| quaid | cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc. | <a href="#t14:46" class="time">14:46</a> |
| quaid | (IMO) | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> |
| * jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot" | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> | |
| jjmcd | yeah, good point. To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> |
| quaid | stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> |
| stickster | Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better. | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> |
| stickster | quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though) | <a href="#t14:47" class="time">14:47</a> |
| quaid | hmmm ... good stuff this | <a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a> |
| quaid | so where to next? | <a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a> |
| stickster | So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I | <a href="#t14:48" class="time">14:48</a> |
| think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks" | ||
| quaid | stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election? | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> |
| stickster | Yes. | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> |
| * quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc. | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> | |
| jjmcd | Concensus can be kind of mushy | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> |
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| ke4qqq | stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> |
| ke4qqq | I though election was a must? | <a href="#t14:49" class="time">14:49</a> |
| stickster | ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject | <a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a> |
| stickster | Oops, scratch that. | <a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a> |
| stickster | That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower | <a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a> |
| stickster | this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way. | <a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a> |
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| stickster | A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X." | <a href="#t14:50" class="time">14:50</a> |
| jjmcd | Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from? | <a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a> |
| stickster | <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects</a> | <a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a> |
| quaid | jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :) | <a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a> |
| stickster | jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad) | <a href="#t14:51" class="time">14:51</a> |
| from them | ||
| jjmcd | Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> |
| * stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> | |
| * stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02 | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> | |
| quaid | ok, so the deal is ... | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> |
| quaid | we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> |
| quaid | Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement. | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> |
| -!- stickster is now known as stickster_mtg | <a href="#t14:52" class="time">14:52</a> | |
| quaid | we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see. | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | what I'd like to do ... | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | is decide _on_list_ how to proceed: | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | * elections or no | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | * steering or no | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | * sig or sub-proj | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | etc. | <a href="#t14:53" class="time">14:53</a> |
| quaid | does that make sense? | <a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a> |
| Sparks | +1 | <a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a> |
| jjmcd | Yes, let's suck in some other voices | <a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a> |
| Sparks | quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list. Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses. | <a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a> |
| jjmcd | This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| quaid | can someone else .. | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| quaid | take a stab at explaining this via the list? | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| ke4qqq | lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined | ||
| Sparks | quaid: On it | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| quaid | Sparks: thx | <a href="#t14:55" class="time">14:55</a> |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Who is going to say that? | <a href="#t14:57" class="time">14:57</a> |
| quaid | ok, time runneth short | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
| ke4qqq | you can - didn't you say you were on it? | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
| quaid | I think we have what we need on this topic, yes? | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
| Sparks | +1 | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
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| ke4qqq | yes | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
| jjmcd | yep | <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a> |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> | |
| quaid | two voices so far: | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> |
| quaid | King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> |
| quaid | and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> |
| quaid | in supporting any PHP solution. | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> |
| danielsmw | yup. | <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> |
| quaid | (with Drupal up on the list somewhere.) | <a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a> |
| * herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well | <a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a> | |
| quaid | herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all | <a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a> |
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| quaid | the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross. | <a href="#t15:00" class="time">15:00</a> |
| jsmith | herlo: I refuse to use Drupal. If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it. | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| * jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> | |
| danielsmw | i've expressed interest in drupal before | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
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| quaid | ok, that's the status :) | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| jsmith | herlo: Can I be more clear? I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| danielsmw | but never really for a good reason | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| danielsmw | so i'm wondering | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| danielsmw | while we have some people here | <a href="#t15:01" class="time">15:01</a> |
| herlo | jsmith: start licking | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| danielsmw | what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for? | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | ok | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| danielsmw | s/should/shouldn't/ | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | since we are over our hour ... | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | can we take the CMS discussion | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | to #fedora-docs | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| danielsmw | +1 | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | with the note for the record that .. | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | "more discussion on list" | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| jjmcd | R | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | ok then | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | R? | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| herlo | I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work. I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| you man! | ||
| jjmcd | Roger | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| quaid | cool | <a href="#t15:02" class="time">15:02</a> |
| jsmith | danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| jsmith | danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| jjmcd | Pefformance is my main beef | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| herlo | moving along? | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| jjmcd | Oui | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | closing I think yes | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | 5 | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | 4 | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | 3 | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | 2 | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | 1 | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |
| quaid | </meeting> | <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> |