Meeting:Board meeting 2009-01-06

Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-01-06

FAMSCo Chair Approval

• FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair
• RESOLUTION: Francesco Ugolini is unanimously confirmed as the FAMSCo chair

Q&A Topics

• When will the last board appointment be announced?
• What are the board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings?
• What is being done to improve our testing procedures?
• When will more information be disclosed about The Incident?
• What is the status of the security response plan?
• What audio/video options are available for people who cannot come to FUDCon?

#fedora-board-meeting

stickster	Before we get started, I just wanted to say thank you to Karsten and Jef for working with the Board for the last year	11:01
quaid	my deep pleasure	11:01
* quaid thanks the Academy and all the little people		11:01
quaid	*sniff* I know you love me, you really do!	11:02
stickster	Please sweep your own flowers off the stage as you depart for the cheap seats	11:02
mdomsch	hear hear!	11:02
stickster	In all seriousness though, these guys have both done a great job representing community interests on the Board over the last 12 months	11:03
f13	indeed	11:03
stickster	All right, if no one has anything to add, we'll do our one agenda item, which is FAMSCo chair approval	11:03
stickster	poelcat: Did you have anything else on the agenda for the last Board meeting?	11:03
stickster	(for this Board)	11:04
poelcat	stickster: that was it	11:04
quaid	oh, you mean I have one last chance to redefine all the guidelines and stage a coup?	11:04
* quaid thought he was a lame duck		11:04
* stickster vetoes quaid on the forehead		11:05
quaid	shoot, forgot about that one	11:05
stickster	:-)	11:05
spevack	stickster: finally a chance to use the veto! :)	11:05
quaid	does this mean I have to return the rubber stamp, too?	11:05
mdomsch	I want the rubber stamps bought to FUDCon	11:05
mdomsch	brought	11:05
stickster	I think I forgot to give Harald his when I saw him at LinuxTag.	11:05
spevack	i bought them for last year's fudcon... some people got them, but i don't know who	11:05
stickster	OK, back on topic...	11:06
* skvidal has never gotten a rubber stamp :(		11:06
* quaid never actually go his, to be honest		11:06
skvidal	and I've been on the board for-freaking-ever	11:06
mdomsch	nor I	11:06
quaid	skvidal: you *are* the rubber stamp	11:06
* spot stamps all over the place		11:06
* notting has one. but it's in his cube in raleigh		11:06
spevack	we'll make more :)	11:06
stickster	skvidal: I'll bring yours to FUDCon, it's up to you to remind me to give it to you :-)	11:06
skvidal	ok	11:07
stickster	OK, FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair. In favor?	11:07
mdomsch	+1	11:07
notting	+1	11:07
f13	+1	11:07
ctyler	+1	11:07
skvidal	is there any reason to be against him that I haven't heard?	11:07
* spot stamps		11:07
spot	err, +1	11:07
* quaid stamps +1 as well		11:07
skvidal	I kept looking - but I couldn't find anything terribly controversial	11:07
h\h	+1	11:07
skvidal	okay, +1	11:07
quaid	skvidal: actually, he rocks	11:07
stickster	Everyone loves fugolini AFAICT.	11:07
skvidal	since all the cool kids are doing it	11:07
skvidal	okie	11:07
stickster	He's done a fantastic job for months in this role, and was re-nominated by the new FAMSCo	11:08
mdomsch	you get the elected officials you deserve - Ambassadors are doing a great job => fugolini will continue to do a great job	11:08
stickster	precisely.	11:08
stickster	So the Board has spoken unanimously as well and confirms FAMSCo's selection.	11:09
stickster	Congratulations and good luck to Francesco!	11:09
stickster	So, shall we move to Q&A then?	11:09
spevack	inode0 asks when the final appointed board member will be announced.	11:10
stickster	By tomorrow.	11:10
spoleeba	stupid bosses	11:10
spoleeba	talking to me at 10 am	11:10
stickster	spoleeba: Welcome :-)	11:10
spevack	alrighty then. inode0 also asks what the Board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings	11:11
quaid	did he mean all of them or just the Board's?	11:11
ctyler	these townhall meetings, or the ones that were run during the election(s)?	11:11
spot	people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings.	11:11
stickster	In further answer to the previous question, I spent part of yesterday talking to a few people who were either up for, or put people up for, nomination	11:11
spevack	i believe he means, actually, the election town hall meetings	11:11
stickster	Just had to finish those discussions today	11:11
stickster	eof	11:12
spevack	as opposed to these monthly ones	11:12
ctyler	I think the election townhalls were good, but underattended	11:12
ctyler	I would recommend that in the future people who can't attend synchronously be permitted to send questions to the moderator via e-mail in advance	11:12
quaid	the biggest problem I had was the lack of controversy; not sure if it was the questions or the medium, but people just tended to agree with each other :)	11:13
ctyler	Everyone can read the transcripts after	11:13
quaid	ctyler: +1	11:13
stickster	ctyler: That's a very good suggestion.	11:13
notting	ctyler: that is a good idea. they seemed OK to me. i think enough people attended to make them worthwhile, although more is always good	11:13
spoleeba	quaid, wow...a lack of controversy...as a bad thing	11:14
mdomsch	Do we need _more_ townhalls? The board had 2, fesco 1, ambassadors 1	11:14
stickster	But I think this also highlights the fact that when you have many people working cooperatively in a collaborative project, it's hard to find differentiators, as opposed to what happens in the party system	11:14
quaid	spoleeba: ok, that was unkind of me ...	11:14
spoleeba	quaid, don't we have enough drama on -devel-list?	11:14
quaid	more like, there was an unusual level of agreement compared to f-devel-l	11:14
quaid	and if you don't read the devel list	11:14
quaid	you don't see these people in the other medium	11:14
* quaid wasn't the only person who 'complained' about that; he saw it in the public channels		11:15
spoleeba	quaid, here's what that tells me... the people who are stadning up to be leaders..are rational..reasonable..and well informed people	11:15
quaid	otoh, as you say, if we are truly in agreement, who cares?	11:15
skvidal	quaid: true	11:15
spoleeba	quaid, what we are lacking...is a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist	11:16
quaid	spoleeba: well, that works for a standing group; but an electing group is harder, esp. when folks aren't the ones responsible for the sharp stuff that people are mad about.	11:16
ctyler	as long as they don't stick the knife in to things that no one cares about, just to get the reaction	11:17
spevack	inode0 notes that some candidates did not attend, which made it difficult to compare them to the ones who did, [aside from grading on punctuality, moderator's addition]	11:17
spoleeba	quaid, if people arent asking the hot questions..we wont see scandalous answers	11:17
* quaid ponders creating a page of controversial topics/memes for the future :)		11:17
mdomsch	spevack, inode0, I think that was true only of the single ambassadors townhall; for the board, everyone attended at least one of the two	11:17
skvidal	to be fair	11:18
spoleeba	mdomsch, you could make attendance a requirement to be on the ballot	11:18
mdomsch	that was a challenge - the global diversity of timezones of the candidates	11:18
quaid	well, for things that matter, I've been on confcalls etc. early in the morning.	11:18
skvidal	most of the hot topics for fedora are really only issues for folks who don't already realize that legal "resolves" a number of our "controversies"	11:18
quaid	but there are work schedules and such we cannot work around.	11:18
stickster	Non-attendance would have a natural effect on voting in the same way as it would in an election for public office, I think. People will support a candidate in part based on that candidate's willingness to show up and voice views	11:19
stickster	But in part if the voter supports a candidate regardless, it may not matter	11:19
ctyler	timezone: a good test of a candidate's negotiating skills, then :-)	11:19
spoleeba	stickster, once you have my vote...i really dont want to be bothered having to hear you talk to me any more	11:19
stickster	"And please stop calling my house with your recorded messages."	11:20
spevack	next question, whenever you want it. vwbusguy asks about what is being done to improve and modify our testing procedures, referencing packagekit/dbus problem but also a new kernel that broke sound for many users as two recent examples of things not being properly tested before they are pushed out.	11:20
quaid	although I really liked the idea and execution of the townhall IRC meetings, and agree that questions in advance is a good idea, I wonder if we want to invite list-based discussions on e.g. f-advisory-board	11:20
spoleeba	so this is the first time we did it.. if the biggest problems were lack of contraversy and underattendance...i think solving the attendance problem and getting more questions in..will solve the lack of contraversy problem	11:21
f13	spevack: I can take that question	11:21
f13	spevack: vwbusguy- couple things. 1) the kernel breaking intel audio was known, but pushed anyway as it fixed a lot more than it broke, according to the kernel folks, and they expected a fix for the intel folks soon.	11:21
f13	spevack: vwbusguy-: 2) I have a fudcon talk planned and hackfest on getting some dirt simple reactive testing in place, that should catch some of this, but mostly it would be package repo consistancy level testing, as opposed to software functionality testing.	11:22
f13	spevack: vwbusguy-: There is another fudcon talk planned regarding the status and future of Fedora QA/Testing that dwelves into some software that is being worked on and some strategies.	11:23
* quaid notes that more than just knowing the answers, f13 was specifically tasked by the Board with this whole ball of wax after the DBus problems		11:23
f13	A big F11 goal is to improve in meaningful ways to maintainers/users the testing we do.	11:23
stickster	We should make a point of recording that particular session at BarCamp if at all possible	11:23
f13	stickster: both of them.	11:23
stickster	f13: Right, I'm obviously on a delay	11:24
quaid	ctyler: side note, good first-thing FUDCon activity for vid cameras is to pick the must-have sessions	11:24
ctyler	stickster: will make a point of that	11:24
spevack	f13: pingou_laptop asks if in cases where an update with known breakage is pushed for other valid reasons, if the breakages could be known so that (for example) people with that sound card could know to skip the update. is there any mechanism for that sort of notification?	11:24
ctyler	quaid: I'm still hopeful that we can cover most/all of the sessions	11:24
* stickster should also point out that the particulars of the PK/DBus problem might not have been caught by an automated testing system		11:25
skvidal	spevack: not sure how we would do that	11:25
stickster	There will always be room for human error as long as we want our maintainers to have any degree of flexibility greater than zero.	11:25
skvidal	we don't have a way to tell users anything	11:25
stickster	The objective is to minimize it.	11:25
spevack	skvidal: caillon noted that it could simply go into the update text, perhaps?	11:25
quaid	skvidal: announce-list?	11:25
notting	all we have is update metadata, and you can't really expose hardware-specific things there	11:26
notting	fyi: is this a board level issue? or is this fesco & sigs?	11:26
skvidal	quaid: haha, right	11:26
quaid	skvidal: srsly	11:26
spoleeba	f13, the dbus update would not have been caught at the repo consistency level i dont think.. it was an api break now a depchain break	11:26
spoleeba	f13, now/not	11:26
f13	spevack: pingou_laptop: extra notes in the bodhi update would be one place to add that info	11:26
f13	spoleeba: that's why I mentioned the difference between consistency and functional testing	11:27
stickster	quaid: There's a huge gap in the subscriptions to fedora-announce-list. Because we can't ensure users see information there, it's not a good enough way of sending notices to the overall public.	11:27
spoleeba	f13, you know what would be keen...like super-keen... tieing that sort of thing to smolt as an optional service	11:27
quaid	stickster: maybe *that* is a Board issue	11:27
f13	spoleeba: consistency testing is relatively easy to accomplish with today's tools and I feel we could have valuable testing going in a matter of days or weeks, whereas functional testing is much harder to get going.	11:27
quaid	announce list is so low traffic, we really really really need people who use Fedora to be on it	11:27
spoleeba	f13, if you sign up for smolt...then known breakage that affects your system will earn you an extra special notification	11:27
f13	spoleeba: smolt is certainly on the design boards and thoughts for the future.	11:27
notting	gate it to rss, include a live bookmark in the default ff package?	11:27
stickster	quaid: How do we force them to sign up for it?	11:28
quaid	stickster: not force, advertise and market	11:28
quaid	stickster: also, if we use the channel for comms	11:28
f13	we need to do more with rss feeding	11:28
f13	and adding them to ff	11:28
stickster	We already market it directly to fedora-list, Fedora Forum, etc.	11:28
quaid	stickster: and people complain about not knowing stuff on e.g. f-list, then we remind them to join the announce list	11:28
spoleeba	notting, client side ticker feed by default on the desktop would be a good way to tell users that it exists	11:28
f13	although FF rss reading is /terrible/	11:28
f13	I wonder if we can pre-add it to liferea?	11:29
quaid	+1	11:29
quaid	or a default "Fedora notice" desktop applet that pulls in the RSS for just announce-list	11:29
notting	f13: but FF is a whole lot more likely to be used by default than liferea, or <kde equivalent>, or google reader, or...	11:29
quaid	"You've got a message from Fedora"	11:29
stickster	I think having an announcement feed as a default in all RSS products we carry might be worthwhile	11:29
ctyler	rss panel applet?	11:29
stickster	That's a singular deviation from upstream that might be worthwhile.	11:30
f13	notting: sure, we just dont' have to stop with FF	11:30
spot	hey, lets add RSS to packagekit	11:30
spot	*ducks*	11:30
f13	this is a great idea, who can we assign this to? (:	11:30
* spevack throws rotten fruit at spot		11:30
skvidal	so our server users don't deserve to get notices like this?	11:31
notting	bodhi already does rss of the updateinfo, right?	11:31
mdomsch	mugshot? :-)	11:31
f13	notting: yes	11:31
notting	skvidal: i'm sure there's a text mode rss reader somewheree	11:31
f13	skvidal: server users should be reading email (:	11:31
skvidal	f13: to be fair	11:31
f13	notting: ish, the bodhi feed isn't entirely complete as the emails	11:31
skvidal	server users aren't using fedora	11:31
skvidal	:)	11:31
stickster	skvidal, *: Maybe what we need, to start with, is a survey that helps us understand the breadth of the problem among groups like users, developers, and admins.	11:31
skvidal	stickster: haha	11:32
stickster	skvidal: We'll announce the survey on fedora-announce-list	11:32
f13	oops	11:32
skvidal	stickster: like I said, ha ha	11:32
spot	</nelson>	11:33
spevack	Ok, moving on?	11:33
stickster	Is there something actionable we can take from this?	11:33
stickster	Users clearly need more information than they're getting.	11:33
stickster	We can take this to FAB for exploration	11:33
ctyler	Sounds good.	11:34
skvidal	stickster: OR	11:34
f13	yeah, I think this is something that we should turn over to the userbase at large	11:34
skvidal	users need less breakage than they're getting	11:34
f13	skvidal: I think thats an "and" rather than an "or"	11:34
stickster	skvidal: essentially though, it's both	11:34
stickster	f13: +1	11:34
stickster	Move on?	11:35
ctyler	q++	11:36
spevack	nirik asks when we will see more disclosure regarding The Incident from last year?	11:36
spevack	(captializations are my flourish)	11:36
skvidal	spevack: you could capitalize all the letters	11:36
* skvidal looks at stickster		11:36
stickster	nirik: I hope I will be able to do this soon -- probably not by or at FUDCon	11:36
spot	i would say "soon", but i might get hit with more fruit	11:36
stickster	spot: No worries, I did it for you.	11:36
skvidal	spot: or wors	11:37
spoleeba	encourage smolt usage...magically tie known breakage to affected hardware in smolt...inform clients with smolt UUIDs that their system is affected by known breakage in the update..allow users to choose to hold back the update based on local policy needs	11:37
spoleeba	crap lagging	11:37
spot	i can assure that neither stickster nor me has forgotten this	11:37
spot	we are making daily efforts to bring things to their proper and visible conclusion	11:37
spoleeba	spot, will there be a press conference-like opportunity to take questions at the time of disclosure?	11:37
stickster	It was one of the last things I worked on before I went on holiday break, and one of the first things I was working on when I came back.	11:37
spot	spoleeba: i'm going to go out on a limb and say yes.	11:38
spot	if not a formalized one, definitely through something like lwn	11:38
notting	note: *take* questions. not necessarily answer them. *ducks*	11:38
quaid	"that	11:38
ctyler	spot, stickster: the total silence is making it appear like it's fallen off the plate, maybe a "we haven't forgotten" planet post?	11:38
stickster	We can't expect to do a disclosure and expect no feedback.	11:38
quaid	"that's a very good question. it reminds me of the time ..."	11:38
spoleeba	spot, i want a formal one...on irc...with a transscript	11:39
skvidal	ctyler: "we're not dead, yet"	11:39
stickster	ctyler: This should suffice, since LWN tends to attend and cover our meetings	11:39
spevack	stickster: can you confirm that everything you have permission to release has been released? In other words, that you are not sitting on any info that is allowed to be public. (I created this question from reading the chatter in -public)	11:39
spoleeba	spot, becacuse quite frankly...i do not trust laypress editorializing	11:39
quaid	stickster: or invite LWN specifically to that meeting	11:39
stickster	ctyler: I think announcements that say "We have nothing to announce yet" are worthless.	11:39
spot	i can confirm that, spevack.	11:39
spot	we are not sitting on anything we have permission to release.	11:39
ctyler	stickster: Yes, but "it's not dead" has value.	11:40
ctyler	a *lot* of value, sometimes	11:40
spoleeba	spot, i want a formal press opportunity..with a transscript..where everyone who is going to write about it..gets a chance to direct ask and have their questions not answered	11:40
spot	spoleeba: i'm not opposed to that. ;)	11:40
quaid	stickster: to be honest, I agree; I just caught up on the f-ambassadors-l thread where you responded with reasonable information, and that was a month ago; it would have been OK to have bounced that same info as a blog post or something.	11:41
spoleeba	spot, and if laypress dotn show up to that..and then editorialize about it..im going to be there..and im going to tear their heartless heart out	11:41
spot	heck, stickster is ex-gov. He's good at it. :)	11:41
quaid	people specifically asked along the way for 'nothing new, not forgotten' updates.	11:41
f13	spoleeba: going back to QA efforts. My goal with F11 is to stop dreaming about what we /could/ do in a grand future with perfect tools, and instead concentrate on what we can accomplish /now/ with the tools we have /now/. We've spent too much time dreaming and trying to create this great wonderful thing and in the mean time failures are slipping through the cracks that we could easily catch	11:42
spevack	Sonar_Guy notes that along with The Incident, there was discussion about creating a security response plan for if/when there is a next time. Where are we with that?	11:43
stickster	Sonar_Guy: Good question, mmcgrath and I are meeting at FUDCon (with any other interested parties) to talk about this very subject.	11:43
stickster	We want to prepare a communications plan that sets out reasonable expectations and timeline so that people know what to expect, and when.	11:43
stickster	And to the maximum possible extent, will make disclosures to the community as early as possible, along the whole process.	11:44
skvidal	stickster: you sure nothing could come out about The Incident before friday?	11:45
skvidal	stickster: it would make a nice icebreaker for fudcon	11:45
skvidal	and it would mean I wouldn't have to remember what we can't say	11:45
skvidal	which is a plus b/c my muddled mind has been slowly losing containment on which things fall into which box, So I default to not saying ANYTHING which just sucks	11:45
stickster	It does suck, and I'm incredibly sensitive to the fact that Fedora people have been put in a situation where they can't be fully open and transparent to our community.	11:46
stickster	I think the whole community needs to understand that the very few Fedora people who have substantial knowledge about The Incident are not being quiet because they want to.	11:48
spevack	i'm putting out one last call for questions/follow ups in -public	11:48
* spevack likes how others are capitalizing it now :)		11:48
spoleeba	skvidal, oh man...i can just imagine the contorted look on your face at fudcon when you try to mentally parse if you can say something	11:48
spoleeba	skvidal, and then the sad clown face at the end of the process when you give up	11:49
stickster	spoleeba: It will look much the same as when I offer him a bite of my hamburger	11:49
spevack	viking_ice reaffirms his belief that any info (even if the info is no new info) is better than silence.	11:49
ctyler	+1	11:49
f13	there are two camps to that	11:49
f13	on the one side, saying "we haven't forgotten this, but we still can't tell you anything" does help people know that we haven't forgotten it	11:50
f13	on the other side it's continual invitiations to flame and rant and whatever	11:50
stickster	And then there's the inevitable follow up questions that prompts. When one can't answer those either, has the announcement really been anything other than a red herring?	11:50
ctyler	"Comments on this post are closed"	11:50
stickster	It's simply not appropriate to comment further until there's something substantial to tell people.	11:51
f13	I agree there is value to letting people know we haven't forgotten, but that has to be balanced with how often we poke people in the eye with "ha ha we still can't tell you!"	11:51
stickster	And I have every intention of doing that, as I pointed out in the last announcement we made.	11:51
stickster	^^ my last comment was in response to myself, not f13	11:51
stickster	spevack: Are there any other questions waiting?	11:54
spevack	viking_ice asks what is in place for people who can't be at FUDCon to participate in some sessions.	11:54
stickster	ctyler: Take it away!	11:54
ctyler	We're audiocasting one stream and video-recording as many as possible for later posting on the web.	11:54
ctyler	Where "as many as possible" == 3, maybe 4 right now, more if we get extra camcorders	11:55
ctyler	Watch the planet for audio stream info.	11:55
ctyler	(All this applies to the Saturday sessions)	11:56
stickster	I think ctyler also put a call out for anyone else willing to bring a camcorder for recording purposes, yes?	11:57
ctyler	yes, x2	11:57
quaid	do you want more audio capability?	11:58
spevack	there are no other questions in -public, FWIW	11:58
ctyler	quaid: We thought we'd start small, better to stream one well than go too big and fall flat	11:58
quaid	ctyler: not streaming, capture	11:59
quaid	agreed on the size of the bite we are taking this time	11:59
spoleeba	quaid, thats a microphone investment still i think	11:59
f13	a nibble is better than naught	11:59
ctyler	quaid: my own personality is to want to do things well -- too well. Looking at mdomsch's OLS videos made me realize that a camcorder can do an adequate capture of a session	12:00
spoleeba	quaid, once you know that your equipment works as expected..you can duplicate the purchase and record more next time	12:00
* mdomsch resembles adequate :-)		12:00
ctyler	I was planning too complicated until I realized that Matt had done a great job with a single device :-)	12:01
quaid	actually, i agree about camcorder audio, just don't tell Colby that :D	12:01
mdomsch	to be fair, at OLS, the speakers are mic'd	12:01
ctyler	True that	12:01
mdomsch	if the classrooms we're in have mics, that'd be way cool	12:02
mdomsch	somehow I doubt it though	12:02
stickster	mdomsch: I don't think they do, judging by the site info, which has been very complete in other respects	12:02
ctyler	I don't think they're big enough to warrant it, looking at the photos	12:02
stickster	I could envision spending actual funds on audio capture equipment and including that with anything we ship to support future Fedora events	12:02
spoleeba	stickster, "actual" funds	12:02
quaid	stickster: I expect e.g. NA Ambassadors will take some lessons from this weekend and work that in to budget in the future	12:03
ctyler	basic wireless lavs are cheap these days, if we had budget to do some at some point that would be awesome	12:03
stickster	So along with the schwag we box up a mic in an appropriate container to record the event	12:03
stickster	(or mics)	12:03
ctyler	perfect	12:03
quaid	yep, that's the Event_Box	12:03
* spevack can find the budget, if we can believe that things will be cared for. but we have to take that chance, of course. trust in the people who have the event box		12:03
spoleeba	spevack, can you put a depreciation timescale into that..so that you can expect to need a replacement box in say 2 years?	12:04
spoleeba	spevack, or 10..or something	12:04
spevack	sure, whatever	12:04
spevack	so, who owns figuring out what we need to buy?	12:05
* spevack only owns paying for it :)		12:05
quaid	Ambassadors	12:05
spevack	ok i'll take it to Ambassadors list	12:06
stickster	spevack: quaid: ctyler: I would recommend that in addition to any lavs we also think about a powered room-type condenser mic	12:07
spoleeba	stickster, for questions?	12:07
spevack	also, i'd like a pony	12:07
stickster	And a jetski.	12:07
mdomsch	the parabolic laser mics are too expensive? :-)	12:07
stickster	OK, weeds.	12:07
ctyler	pony on a jetski	12:07
spoleeba	stickster, bah... snowmachine	12:07
stickster	spevack: Any other issues left?	12:07
spevack	nope	12:08
stickster	All right, let's call this one unless there's an objection	12:08
ctyler	-1 objection, +1 wrap	12:08
spoleeba	please...end this meeting..end my obligation to be at these meetings	12:08
spevack	spoleeba: watch your words or you'll "volunteer" to be the moderator	12:08
mdomsch	spoleeba missed stickster's thanks at the start of the meeting	12:09
spoleeba	mdomsch, bah	12:09
mdomsch	"you are dismissed, with the thanks of the court"	12:09
stickster	spoleeba: You'll receive the roses later :-)	12:09
spoleeba	stickster, humbug	12:09
mdomsch	your check for $1.32 will be sent to your employer to cover lost wages	12:09
stickster	"This moment of silence has been duly noted and deducted from your pay."	12:10
stickster	Thanks, everyone, for coming and for your participation!	12:10
* quaid +1 wrap		12:10
stickster	Thanks to all the community members for their questions too	12:10
stickster	spevack: Fine job moderating as always, thanks	12:11
spevack	my pleasure	12:11
spevack	peaceout	12:11
spoleeba	mdomsch, and the cost of the stamp will be deducted...of course	12:11

#fedora-board-public

spevack	inode0: i will ask it	11:02
inode0	What are the thoughts about the effectiveness of the townhall meetings now that some time has passed to reflect on them?	11:02
inode0	hard to complain about that answer :)	11:11
spevack	are there any other questions for the Fedora board?	11:11
* inode0 meant all of them but any thoughts about them are welcome		11:12
jjmcd	New F11 feature - IRC rotten fruit	11:12
spevack	jjmcd: ?	11:12
pingou_laptop	<spot> people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings.	11:12
spevack	any questions.... about anything related to Fedora?	11:13
* nirik will ask the obvious one again		11:13
nirik	any new news on the breakin? ;)	11:14
spevack	nirik: added to the queue :)	11:14
* spevack should just ask that one by default first each month		11:14
* inode0 notes that lack of attendance by candidates was an issue for him ... not just the audience		11:15
spevack	you mean that some candidates did not attend?	11:15
caillon	spevack, make the question sound more exasperated each time though	11:16
spevack	caillon: ok :)	11:16
inode0	yes, making it hard to compare them with the ones who did attend	11:16
vwbusguy-	I have concerns with what we are doing for testing	11:16
vwbusguy-	the dbus / packagekit thing was one issue	11:17
inode0	maybe I should just say that it seemed to weigh in favor of candidates who did attend for those not real familiar with everyone to begin with	11:17
vwbusguy-	but a new kernel that takes out sound for a large user base just happened too	11:17
vwbusguy-	Are any measures being taken to revise the way we test things before they are deployed?	11:17
Southern_Gentlem	<spoleeba> "...is a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist" nominates spoleeba for that position	11:17
spevack	vwbusguy-: good question.	11:18
spevack	i'll ask it	11:18
EvilBob	I liked the town hall sessions that I attended, I found them quite helpful.	11:18
viking_ice	This has been discussed a bit on the QA channel..	11:19
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy-, links to bugzilla help as well	11:20
vwbusguy-	sure, I'll just put a query up showing my CC list, haha	11:21
quaid	Southern_Gentlem: oh, that's one of the reasons Jef and I are happily off the Board, now we can go back to being iconoclasts	11:21
spevack	nirik: your question is next	11:21
quaid	"I'm a divider, not a healer."	11:21
pingou_laptop	in reaction to f13 sentence, could the users be warned in such case ?	11:23
pingou_laptop	so that people with those sound card would only update if they want	11:23
caillon	it should have been part of the update text. was it not?	11:24
caillon	then again, most people won't read update text for everything they install.	11:25
pingou_laptop	that's one and the other is that you have that text when you are updating...	11:25
inode0	please no popups :)	11:25
pingou_laptop	so too late :/	11:25
vwbusguy-	perhaps have a sign off on some common hardware fo rupdates	11:26
vwbusguy-	we collect smolt profiles	11:26
caillon	pingou_laptop, if you use packagekit, it will have the text there if you click on the individual update.	11:26
vwbusguy-	do we use them?	11:26
jjmcd	Perhaps there needs to be a separate admon/warning text	11:26
pingou_laptop	maybe I should try pk then ^^	11:26
inode0	can introduction of breakage go into the release notes which can easily be read before updating?	11:26
jjmcd	caillon: When you have three dozen updates how many of those do you read	11:26
caillon	jjmcd, i honestly do read them all.	11:27
spevack	Any other followup questions on this particular topic?	11:27
jjmcd	But if there was one place to look for uh-oh's	11:27
vwbusguy-	maybe have something as obvious as the Ubuntu + firefox EULA thing, haha	11:27
caillon	vwbusguy-, you mean the fedora thing.	11:28
pingou_laptop	spevack, just, somewhere is better than nowhere (related to the announce ml)	11:28
vwbusguy-	caillon, just meant in the way it was meant to grab users intentions... nvm, not a discussion I want to get into here	11:28
vwbusguy-	*attention	11:28
Southern_Gentlem	why not put that issue in the changelogs of the kernel and send a message on fedora -aanounce	11:29
SMParrish	tell f13 I can add the feed to liferea since I'm the package maintainer	11:29
pingou_laptop	+1	11:29
caillon	vwbusguy-, i know exactly what you're talking about. it's the thing that I personally worked with Mozilla on for months.	11:29
caillon	vwbusguy-, you were simply assigning the credit to the wrong place. that's all i was commenting on.	11:30
viking_ice	packagekit needs to be able to revert to the older version ( rpm -Uhv --oldpackage ) then users could just simply revert if the *new* package breaks things for them..	11:30
quaid	inode0: did you see mizmo's latest post about all the chatty desktop :)	11:30
EvilBob	stickster: default = -1	11:30
inode0	quaid: yes and it scared me :)	11:30
quaid	inode0: we don't have a release notes that rolls with updates though	11:30
inode0	quaid: sorry, I meant the changelog	11:31
quaid	jjmcd: there could be a wiki page, but again, how do we tell people about it	11:31
quaid	inode0: ah, yes	11:31
quaid	caillon++ on the Fedora thing, btw :)	11:31
jjmcd	Trouble is, one person's wheat is another's chaff	11:32
caillon	quaid :)	11:32
vwbusguy-	unfortunately wiki is not a good method	11:32
Southern_Gentlem	viking_ice, in the case of the kernel you should have the old kernel anyways	11:32
skvidal	viking_ice: reverting is A LOT more troublesome than you think	11:32
inode0	if people care they should already read the changelog I would think	11:32
vwbusguy-	If users checked ?Bugs/Common we'd have a lot less of them in #Fedora	11:32
vwbusguy-	*/Bugs	11:32
quaid	vwbusguy-: that's true	11:33
vwbusguy-	quaid, what about sending out errata, like in RHEL systems	11:33
viking_ice	skvidal: depends on what you are reverting :)	11:34
skvidal	viking_ice: which is, of course, the problem	11:34
* EvilBob reverts viking_ice		11:34
quaid	vwbusguy-: we do, it's called 'package-announce' and it's freaking full of messages	11:34
* viking_ice rev back		11:34
quaid	vwbusguy-: but you mean, like RHN which knows what you have installed?	11:35
EvilBob	package-announce is worthless	11:35
skvidal	quaid: which we can't do for privacy reasons	11:35
quaid	vwbusguy-: what we don't have is such a creature, although we potentially could	11:35
quaid	skvidal: well, if people subscribed, etc.	11:35
vwbusguy-	quaid, yes, but then again you aren't going to have nearly as many updates pushed in RHEL either	11:35
jjmcd	but giving users granular control over an RSS feed might do the trick	11:35
skvidal	quaid: and we'd need infrastructure to handle all those users going to a common place	11:35
skvidal	quaid: which we do NOT have	11:35
skvidal	to be fair the yum-security plugin can help with a lot of this	11:36
quaid	nope, that would be a big initiative	11:36
skvidal	it can give the user the info about updates they want	11:36
jds2001	spevack: no, it's The Incident(TM) :)	11:36
vwbusguy-	two things about smolt - if we could interface with smolt to get messages out specific to hardware setups that would be great. But why don't we look at common hardware setups in smolt and test to those hardware setups?	11:36
quaid	skvidal: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-isv-sig-list/2008-December/msg00016.html when you get a chance	11:36
* pingou_laptop send rotten fruit to spot		11:37
spevack	jds2001: right	11:37
spevack	:)	11:37
nirik	spevack: thanks for the florishes. ;)	11:37
* quaid shoots Mailman for the message formatting on that page, *ick*		11:37
* jds2001 hurls rotten fruit at stickster and spot		11:37
nirik	soon is good, of course now would be better, but hey. ;)	11:37
viking_ice	Last time I heard sticksters is just sitting on that info..	11:37
Sonar_Guy	also along with nirik question has a security plan been drafted as was discussed in the mailing list discussion	11:38
pingou_laptop	and did the signature process changed ?	11:39
spevack	pingou_laptop: what do you mean?	11:40
spevack	any follow ups or new questions?	11:41
pingou_laptop	IIRC the workflow to change the package was supposed to be changed, did it happen already ? (I might remember wrongly)	11:41
spevack	is this in reference to the testing topic, or the security incident topic?	11:42
skvidal	security incident topic, I think	11:42
Sonar_Guy	spevack: along with the incident there was discussion of creating a security plan, what has happened with that?	11:42
Sonar_Guy	stickster: wish I could be there but alas work does not currently permit the current schedule.	11:44
spevack	stickster: i would be interested in participating in that session	11:45
* nirik would also like to attend, time permitting.		11:45
viking_ice	hum so RH is not permitting.. Anyway leaving people in the dark is ( certainly for this long time ) is not the way to go....	11:45
* quaid will try to be there, too		11:45
* pingou_laptop wishes he could..		11:46
quaid	viking_ice: unless it *is* the way to got ...	11:46
ianweller	what is The Incident they're referring to? :/	11:46
spevack	pingou_laptop: if they can figure out a way for me to paticipate as a remotee, they can figure out way for you to also :)	11:46
nirik	viking_ice: you do realize that fedora people are trying as hard as they can to release info, but this is all legal stuff, so it has to be approved by lawyers.	11:46
quaid	viking_ice: the problem is, when you have something that could cross in to legal/law enforcement grounds	11:46
* vwbusguy- reserves his verdict until we have 'official' information		11:46
quaid	viking_ice: you *have* to trust the incident response team	11:46
ianweller	is this new today?	11:47
jjmcd	ianweller: Hardly	11:47
spevack	ianweller: we're talking about the thing from august or september, whenever it was	11:47
ianweller	spevack: oh. ok	11:47
spevack	thus the capitalizations :)	11:47
pingou_laptop	spevack, would be great !	11:47
ianweller	i called it the Great Catastrophe of August	11:47
ianweller	;)	11:47
EvilBob	"The Incident"	11:48
ianweller	good thing nothing bad happened today though, i guess!	11:48
EvilBob	coming to a theater near you	11:48
spevack	ianweller: your glass is half full, sir	11:48
spevack	any other questions for the board?	11:48
viking_ice	any info is better then no info ( some progress reports for example from the Team incident )	11:48
* mmcgrath wonders if anyone else was asked about the break during christmas from friends and family.		11:49
EvilBob	mmcgrath: I was	11:50
spevack	mmcgrath: i'm still trying to get my family past "so wait, they pay you to work on something that you give away for free"	11:50
mmcgrath	heh	11:50
ianweller	spevack: hey, same here!	11:50
ianweller	er	11:50
pingou_laptop	spevack, g'd luck with that !	11:50
ianweller	mmcgrath: ^^	11:50
ianweller	;)	11:50
pingou_laptop	I am to	11:50
ianweller	er, yeah, actually, towards spevack. god i'm confused	11:50
spevack	ianweller: i'm happy to have another chat with your dad if necessary :)	11:51
skvidal	spevack: hahahaha	11:51
ianweller	spevack: no, they're cool with it. ;)	11:51
spevack	i know!	11:51
ianweller	something to keep me out of trouble!	11:52
lmacken	maybe we should have an Incident roundtable discussion at FUDCon to talk about policies/procedures/infrastructure that has come out of it, along with other ways to handle this situation better in the future ?	11:52
pingou_laptop	isn't it already planned ?	11:52
skvidal	pingou_laptop: it is	11:52
* lmacken hasn't checked the schedule in a while		11:52
lmacken	good	11:52
pingou_laptop	:)	11:53
quaid	lmacken: yep, stickster mentioned it and invited all interested	11:53
lmacken	good good.. it'll give me a chance to talk about the new IDS that is in the works :)	11:53
viking_ice	will there be live streaming from fudcon so fedorians that are unable to attend might be able to do so via irc channel ?	11:53
viking_ice	and participate..	11:54
ianweller	they're working on live audio streaming... i dunno about video	11:54
ianweller	i haven't been following too closely	11:54
spevack	you're about to get your answer ianweller	11:54
pingou_laptop	could those info be grouped somewhere ? wiki/blog/announce ml ?	11:55
jds2001	already on the wiki on the main fudcon page	11:56
pingou_laptop	ok	11:56
jds2001	if you have a camcorder and can bring it, please do!	11:56
viking_ice	Cant some money be spent in "conference" HW gear that could be used on fedora conferences world wide	11:56
jds2001	ambassadors budget is fairly tight	11:57
spevack	viking_ice: we could look into it	11:57
jds2001	we tried some things for Q4 but it was denied, iirc - spevack would know more than I :)	11:57
ianweller	ctyler: if i don't get around to posting a streaming link in #fudcon's /topic, i hope that you can :)	11:57
spevack	viking_ice: i have no idea what that sort of stuff costs	11:57
spevack	jds2001: we might want to revisit that in 3 weeks, since we'll be closer to the end of the quarter and if there's money leftover, we should spend it	11:57
ctyler	ianweller: will do	11:58
EvilBob	If people steal banners and other stuff (IIRC this happened in the past), you think they will not think twice about a camera?	11:58
spevack	EvilBob: as long as the camera isn't fedora branded :)	11:58
EvilBob	lol	11:58
quaid	EvilBob: bingo, that's a key problem for any hardware	11:58
quaid	we need people to hold it tight all day, etc.	11:59
Fingaz	have you tried to see if the people you are renting the space from for the conference has cameras that can be used as part of the event?	11:59
EvilBob	we all have felt safe leaving our laptops laying around at Fudcons I think, but community hardware... Idunno.	11:59
viking_ice	EvilBob: one would think the people that are responsible for using the HW ( recording/mixing ) would keep and eye on it..	11:59
viking_ice	+this is something that needs to be light since it would travel from conference to conference..	12:00
Fingaz	typically hotels will have that kind of equipment around. Maybe not a lot of it but some	12:00
jds2001	Fingaz: we're at MIT, a university	12:01
jds2001	not a hotel or anything.	12:01
quaid	Fingaz: yes, we talked with e.g. MIT groups, no bites, or anything we could afford	12:02
EvilBob	Thanks to the Board for the public meeting.	12:02
Fingaz	haha just point your webcam at them and start recording. man that would suck	12:02
quaid	heh, herlo did that last time, it was better than nothing	12:03
inode0	spevack: I'll add this to the agenda tonight and try to get herlo to volunteer :)	12:06
spevack	inode0: perfect	12:06
spevack	inode0: let's spend the money in q4	12:06
spevack	we'll add it to what i already allocated for you guys	12:06
inode0	ok	12:06
quaid	yeah, that was what I was leaning toward; we'd learn stuff this weekend with herlo, then he can take the action back to FAMnA	12:07
viking_ice	Hum perhaps Fedora Camera crew that follows the equipment where ever it goes..	12:07
quaid	viking_ice: we tried that, but RHT won't fund e.g. Colby Hoke for Fedora full time :.	12:07
viking_ice	the knowledge on how to setup and use atleast needs to be spread around..	12:07
jds2001	you paying the salray and travel? :)	12:07
quaid	that's true; should be in a binder that travels with the equipment.	12:08
jds2001	and Colby could write that, best practices, etc.	12:08
jds2001	which btw, what's Colby bringing of RHT's, since he's in the van from RDU?	12:09
viking_ice	Basically you need a head guy that come with the equipment hooks it up and uses then volunteers to film the stuff..	12:09
viking_ice	running around with mic and so fourth..	12:09
viking_ice	And this actually is a full time job..	12:09
jds2001	viking_ice: this person must be paid.	12:09
jds2001	viking_ice: and travel. Are you willing to foot the bill? We'd gladly take it :)	12:10
viking_ice	wont women and booze suffice ;)	12:10
spevack	thanks for your time, all.	12:10
spevack	the official part of this meeting is over :)	12:10

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