From Fedora Project Wiki
Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-01-06
FAMSCo Chair Approval
- FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair
- RESOLUTION: Francesco Ugolini is unanimously confirmed as the FAMSCo chair
Q&A Topics
- When will the last board appointment be announced?
- What are the board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings?
- What is being done to improve our testing procedures?
- When will more information be disclosed about The Incident?
- What is the status of the security response plan?
- What audio/video options are available for people who cannot come to FUDCon?
#fedora-board-meeting
| stickster | Before we get started, I just wanted to say thank you to Karsten and Jef for working with the Board for the last year | 11:01 |
|---|---|---|
| quaid | my deep pleasure | 11:01 |
| * quaid thanks the Academy and all the little people | 11:01 | |
| quaid | *sniff* I know you love me, you really do! | 11:02 |
| stickster | Please sweep your own flowers off the stage as you depart for the cheap seats | 11:02 |
| mdomsch | hear hear! | 11:02 |
| stickster | In all seriousness though, these guys have both done a great job representing community interests on the Board over the last 12 months | 11:03 |
| f13 | indeed | 11:03 |
| stickster | All right, if no one has anything to add, we'll do our one agenda item, which is FAMSCo chair approval | 11:03 |
| stickster | poelcat: Did you have anything else on the agenda for the last Board meeting? | 11:03 |
| stickster | (for this Board) | 11:04 |
| poelcat | stickster: that was it | 11:04 |
| quaid | oh, you mean I have one last chance to redefine all the guidelines and stage a coup? | 11:04 |
| * quaid thought he was a lame duck | 11:04 | |
| * stickster vetoes quaid on the forehead | 11:05 | |
| quaid | shoot, forgot about that one | 11:05 |
| stickster | :-) | 11:05 |
| spevack | stickster: finally a chance to use the veto! :) | 11:05 |
| quaid | does this mean I have to return the rubber stamp, too? | 11:05 |
| mdomsch | I want the rubber stamps bought to FUDCon | 11:05 |
| mdomsch | brought | 11:05 |
| stickster | I think I forgot to give Harald his when I saw him at LinuxTag. | 11:05 |
| spevack | i bought them for last year's fudcon... some people got them, but i don't know who | 11:05 |
| stickster | OK, back on topic... | 11:06 |
| * skvidal has never gotten a rubber stamp :( | 11:06 | |
| * quaid never actually go his, to be honest | 11:06 | |
| skvidal | and I've been on the board for-freaking-ever | 11:06 |
| mdomsch | nor I | 11:06 |
| quaid | skvidal: you *are* the rubber stamp | 11:06 |
| * spot stamps all over the place | 11:06 | |
| * notting has one. but it's in his cube in raleigh | 11:06 | |
| spevack | we'll make more :) | 11:06 |
| stickster | skvidal: I'll bring yours to FUDCon, it's up to you to remind me to give it to you :-) | 11:06 |
| skvidal | ok | 11:07 |
| stickster | OK, FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair. In favor? | 11:07 |
| mdomsch | +1 | 11:07 |
| notting | +1 | 11:07 |
| f13 | +1 | 11:07 |
| ctyler | +1 | 11:07 |
| skvidal | is there any reason to be against him that I haven't heard? | 11:07 |
| * spot stamps | 11:07 | |
| spot | err, +1 | 11:07 |
| * quaid stamps +1 as well | 11:07 | |
| skvidal | I kept looking - but I couldn't find anything terribly controversial | 11:07 |
| h\h | +1 | 11:07 |
| skvidal | okay, +1 | 11:07 |
| quaid | skvidal: actually, he rocks | 11:07 |
| stickster | Everyone loves fugolini AFAICT. | 11:07 |
| skvidal | since all the cool kids are doing it | 11:07 |
| skvidal | okie | 11:07 |
| stickster | He's done a fantastic job for months in this role, and was re-nominated by the new FAMSCo | 11:08 |
| mdomsch | you get the elected officials you deserve - Ambassadors are doing a great job => fugolini will continue to do a great job | 11:08 |
| stickster | precisely. | 11:08 |
| stickster | So the Board has spoken unanimously as well and confirms FAMSCo's selection. | 11:09 |
| stickster | Congratulations and good luck to Francesco! | 11:09 |
| stickster | So, shall we move to Q&A then? | 11:09 |
| spevack | inode0 asks when the final appointed board member will be announced. | 11:10 |
| stickster | By tomorrow. | 11:10 |
| spoleeba | stupid bosses | 11:10 |
| spoleeba | talking to me at 10 am | 11:10 |
| stickster | spoleeba: Welcome :-) | 11:10 |
| spevack | alrighty then. inode0 also asks what the Board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings | 11:11 |
| quaid | did he mean all of them or just the Board's? | 11:11 |
| ctyler | these townhall meetings, or the ones that were run during the election(s)? | 11:11 |
| spot | people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings. | 11:11 |
| stickster | In further answer to the previous question, I spent part of yesterday talking to a few people who were either up for, or put people up for, nomination | 11:11 |
| spevack | i believe he means, actually, the election town hall meetings | 11:11 |
| stickster | Just had to finish those discussions today | 11:11 |
| stickster | eof | 11:12 |
| spevack | as opposed to these monthly ones | 11:12 |
| ctyler | I think the election townhalls were good, but underattended | 11:12 |
| ctyler | I would recommend that in the future people who can't attend synchronously be permitted to send questions to the moderator via e-mail in advance | 11:12 |
| quaid | the biggest problem I had was the lack of controversy; not sure if it was the questions or the medium, but people just tended to agree with each other :) | 11:13 |
| ctyler | Everyone can read the transcripts after | 11:13 |
| quaid | ctyler: +1 | 11:13 |
| stickster | ctyler: That's a very good suggestion. | 11:13 |
| notting | ctyler: that is a good idea. they seemed OK to me. i think enough people attended to make them worthwhile, although more is always good | 11:13 |
| spoleeba | quaid, wow...a lack of controversy...as a bad thing | 11:14 |
| mdomsch | Do we need _more_ townhalls? The board had 2, fesco 1, ambassadors 1 | 11:14 |
| stickster | But I think this also highlights the fact that when you have many people working cooperatively in a collaborative project, it's hard to find differentiators, as opposed to what happens in the party system | 11:14 |
| quaid | spoleeba: ok, that was unkind of me ... | 11:14 |
| spoleeba | quaid, don't we have enough drama on -devel-list? | 11:14 |
| quaid | more like, there was an unusual level of agreement compared to f-devel-l | 11:14 |
| quaid | and if you don't read the devel list | 11:14 |
| quaid | you don't see these people in the other medium | 11:14 |
| * quaid wasn't the only person who 'complained' about that; he saw it in the public channels | 11:15 | |
| spoleeba | quaid, here's what that tells me... the people who are stadning up to be leaders..are rational..reasonable..and well informed people | 11:15 |
| quaid | otoh, as you say, if we are truly in agreement, who cares? | 11:15 |
| skvidal | quaid: true | 11:15 |
| spoleeba | quaid, what we are lacking...is a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist | 11:16 |
| quaid | spoleeba: well, that works for a standing group; but an electing group is harder, esp. when folks aren't the ones responsible for the sharp stuff that people are mad about. | 11:16 |
| ctyler | as long as they don't stick the knife in to things that no one cares about, just to get the reaction | 11:17 |
| spevack | inode0 notes that some candidates did not attend, which made it difficult to compare them to the ones who did, [aside from grading on punctuality, moderator's addition] | 11:17 |
| spoleeba | quaid, if people arent asking the hot questions..we wont see scandalous answers | 11:17 |
| * quaid ponders creating a page of controversial topics/memes for the future :) | 11:17 | |
| mdomsch | spevack, inode0, I think that was true only of the single ambassadors townhall; for the board, everyone attended at least one of the two | 11:17 |
| skvidal | to be fair | 11:18 |
| spoleeba | mdomsch, you could make attendance a requirement to be on the ballot | 11:18 |
| mdomsch | that was a challenge - the global diversity of timezones of the candidates | 11:18 |
| quaid | well, for things that matter, I've been on confcalls etc. early in the morning. | 11:18 |
| skvidal | most of the hot topics for fedora are really only issues for folks who don't already realize that legal "resolves" a number of our "controversies" | 11:18 |
| quaid | but there are work schedules and such we cannot work around. | 11:18 |
| stickster | Non-attendance would have a natural effect on voting in the same way as it would in an election for public office, I think. People will support a candidate in part based on that candidate's willingness to show up and voice views | 11:19 |
| stickster | But in part if the voter supports a candidate regardless, it may not matter | 11:19 |
| ctyler | timezone: a good test of a candidate's negotiating skills, then :-) | 11:19 |
| spoleeba | stickster, once you have my vote...i really dont want to be bothered having to hear you talk to me any more | 11:19 |
| stickster | "And please stop calling my house with your recorded messages." | 11:20 |
| spevack | next question, whenever you want it. vwbusguy asks about what is being done to improve and modify our testing procedures, referencing packagekit/dbus problem but also a new kernel that broke sound for many users as two recent examples of things not being properly tested before they are pushed out. | 11:20 |
| quaid | although I really liked the idea and execution of the townhall IRC meetings, and agree that questions in advance is a good idea, I wonder if we want to invite list-based discussions on e.g. f-advisory-board | 11:20 |
| spoleeba | so this is the first time we did it.. if the biggest problems were lack of contraversy and underattendance...i think solving the attendance problem and getting more questions in..will solve the lack of contraversy problem | 11:21 |
| f13 | spevack: I can take that question | 11:21 |
| f13 | spevack: vwbusguy- couple things. 1) the kernel breaking intel audio was known, but pushed anyway as it fixed a lot more than it broke, according to the kernel folks, and they expected a fix for the intel folks soon. | 11:21 |
| f13 | spevack: vwbusguy-: 2) I have a fudcon talk planned and hackfest on getting some dirt simple reactive testing in place, that should catch some of this, but mostly it would be package repo consistancy level testing, as opposed to software functionality testing. | 11:22 |
| f13 | spevack: vwbusguy-: There is another fudcon talk planned regarding the status and future of Fedora QA/Testing that dwelves into some software that is being worked on and some strategies. | 11:23 |
| * quaid notes that more than just knowing the answers, f13 was specifically tasked by the Board with this whole ball of wax after the DBus problems | 11:23 | |
| f13 | A big F11 goal is to improve in meaningful ways to maintainers/users the testing we do. | 11:23 |
| stickster | We should make a point of recording that particular session at BarCamp if at all possible | 11:23 |
| f13 | stickster: both of them. | 11:23 |
| stickster | f13: Right, I'm obviously on a delay | 11:24 |
| quaid | ctyler: side note, good first-thing FUDCon activity for vid cameras is to pick the must-have sessions | 11:24 |
| ctyler | stickster: will make a point of that | 11:24 |
| spevack | f13: pingou_laptop asks if in cases where an update with known breakage is pushed for other valid reasons, if the breakages could be known so that (for example) people with that sound card could know to skip the update. is there any mechanism for that sort of notification? | 11:24 |
| ctyler | quaid: I'm still hopeful that we can cover most/all of the sessions | 11:24 |
| * stickster should also point out that the particulars of the PK/DBus problem might not have been caught by an automated testing system | 11:25 | |
| skvidal | spevack: not sure how we would do that | 11:25 |
| stickster | There will always be room for human error as long as we want our maintainers to have any degree of flexibility greater than zero. | 11:25 |
| skvidal | we don't have a way to tell users anything | 11:25 |
| stickster | The objective is to minimize it. | 11:25 |
| spevack | skvidal: caillon noted that it could simply go into the update text, perhaps? | 11:25 |
| quaid | skvidal: announce-list? | 11:25 |
| notting | all we have is update metadata, and you can't really expose hardware-specific things there | 11:26 |
| notting | fyi: is this a board level issue? or is this fesco & sigs? | 11:26 |
| skvidal | quaid: haha, right | 11:26 |
| quaid | skvidal: srsly | 11:26 |
| spoleeba | f13, the dbus update would not have been caught at the repo consistency level i dont think.. it was an api break now a depchain break | 11:26 |
| spoleeba | f13, now/not | 11:26 |
| f13 | spevack: pingou_laptop: extra notes in the bodhi update would be one place to add that info | 11:26 |
| f13 | spoleeba: that's why I mentioned the difference between consistency and functional testing | 11:27 |
| stickster | quaid: There's a huge gap in the subscriptions to fedora-announce-list. Because we can't ensure users see information there, it's not a good enough way of sending notices to the overall public. | 11:27 |
| spoleeba | f13, you know what would be keen...like super-keen... tieing that sort of thing to smolt as an optional service | 11:27 |
| quaid | stickster: maybe *that* is a Board issue | 11:27 |
| f13 | spoleeba: consistency testing is relatively easy to accomplish with today's tools and I feel we could have valuable testing going in a matter of days or weeks, whereas functional testing is much harder to get going. | 11:27 |
| quaid | announce list is so low traffic, we really really really need people who use Fedora to be on it | 11:27 |
| spoleeba | f13, if you sign up for smolt...then known breakage that affects your system will earn you an extra special notification | 11:27 |
| f13 | spoleeba: smolt is certainly on the design boards and thoughts for the future. | 11:27 |
| notting | gate it to rss, include a live bookmark in the default ff package? | 11:27 |
| stickster | quaid: How do we force them to sign up for it? | 11:28 |
| quaid | stickster: not force, advertise and market | 11:28 |
| quaid | stickster: also, if we use the channel for comms | 11:28 |
| f13 | we need to do more with rss feeding | 11:28 |
| f13 | and adding them to ff | 11:28 |
| stickster | We already market it directly to fedora-list, Fedora Forum, etc. | 11:28 |
| quaid | stickster: and people complain about not knowing stuff on e.g. f-list, then we remind them to join the announce list | 11:28 |
| spoleeba | notting, client side ticker feed by default on the desktop would be a good way to tell users that it exists | 11:28 |
| f13 | although FF rss reading is /terrible/ | 11:28 |
| f13 | I wonder if we can pre-add it to liferea? | 11:29 |
| quaid | +1 | 11:29 |
| quaid | or a default "Fedora notice" desktop applet that pulls in the RSS for just announce-list | 11:29 |
| notting | f13: but FF is a whole lot more likely to be used by default than liferea, or <kde equivalent>, or google reader, or... | 11:29 |
| quaid | "You've got a message from Fedora" | 11:29 |
| stickster | I think having an announcement feed as a default in all RSS products we carry might be worthwhile | 11:29 |
| ctyler | rss panel applet? | 11:29 |
| stickster | That's a singular deviation from upstream that might be worthwhile. | 11:30 |
| f13 | notting: sure, we just dont' have to stop with FF | 11:30 |
| spot | hey, lets add RSS to packagekit | 11:30 |
| spot | *ducks* | 11:30 |
| f13 | this is a great idea, who can we assign this to? (: | 11:30 |
| * spevack throws rotten fruit at spot | 11:30 | |
| skvidal | so our server users don't deserve to get notices like this? | 11:31 |
| notting | bodhi already does rss of the updateinfo, right? | 11:31 |
| mdomsch | mugshot? :-) | 11:31 |
| f13 | notting: yes | 11:31 |
| notting | skvidal: i'm sure there's a text mode rss reader somewheree | 11:31 |
| f13 | skvidal: server users should be reading email (: | 11:31 |
| skvidal | f13: to be fair | 11:31 |
| f13 | notting: ish, the bodhi feed isn't entirely complete as the emails | 11:31 |
| skvidal | server users aren't using fedora | 11:31 |
| skvidal | :) | 11:31 |
| stickster | skvidal, *: Maybe what we need, to start with, is a survey that helps us understand the breadth of the problem among groups like users, developers, and admins. | 11:31 |
| skvidal | stickster: haha | 11:32 |
| stickster | skvidal: We'll announce the survey on fedora-announce-list | 11:32 |
| f13 | oops | 11:32 |
| skvidal | stickster: like I said, ha ha | 11:32 |
| spot | </nelson> | 11:33 |
| spevack | Ok, moving on? | 11:33 |
| stickster | Is there something actionable we can take from this? | 11:33 |
| stickster | Users clearly need more information than they're getting. | 11:33 |
| stickster | We can take this to FAB for exploration | 11:33 |
| ctyler | Sounds good. | 11:34 |
| skvidal | stickster: OR | 11:34 |
| f13 | yeah, I think this is something that we should turn over to the userbase at large | 11:34 |
| skvidal | users need less breakage than they're getting | 11:34 |
| f13 | skvidal: I think thats an "and" rather than an "or" | 11:34 |
| stickster | skvidal: essentially though, it's both | 11:34 |
| stickster | f13: +1 | 11:34 |
| stickster | Move on? | 11:35 |
| ctyler | q++ | 11:36 |
| spevack | nirik asks when we will see more disclosure regarding The Incident from last year? | 11:36 |
| spevack | (captializations are my flourish) | 11:36 |
| skvidal | spevack: you could capitalize all the letters | 11:36 |
| * skvidal looks at stickster | 11:36 | |
| stickster | nirik: I hope I will be able to do this soon -- probably not by or at FUDCon | 11:36 |
| spot | i would say "soon", but i might get hit with more fruit | 11:36 |
| stickster | spot: No worries, I did it for you. | 11:36 |
| skvidal | spot: or wors | 11:37 |
| spoleeba | encourage smolt usage...magically tie known breakage to affected hardware in smolt...inform clients with smolt UUIDs that their system is affected by known breakage in the update..allow users to choose to hold back the update based on local policy needs | 11:37 |
| spoleeba | crap lagging | 11:37 |
| spot | i can assure that neither stickster nor me has forgotten this | 11:37 |
| spot | we are making daily efforts to bring things to their proper and visible conclusion | 11:37 |
| spoleeba | spot, will there be a press conference-like opportunity to take questions at the time of disclosure? | 11:37 |
| stickster | It was one of the last things I worked on before I went on holiday break, and one of the first things I was working on when I came back. | 11:37 |
| spot | spoleeba: i'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. | 11:38 |
| spot | if not a formalized one, definitely through something like lwn | 11:38 |
| notting | note: *take* questions. not necessarily answer them. *ducks* | 11:38 |
| quaid | "that | 11:38 |
| ctyler | spot, stickster: the total silence is making it appear like it's fallen off the plate, maybe a "we haven't forgotten" planet post? | 11:38 |
| stickster | We can't expect to do a disclosure and expect no feedback. | 11:38 |
| quaid | "that's a very good question. it reminds me of the time ..." | 11:38 |
| spoleeba | spot, i want a formal one...on irc...with a transscript | 11:39 |
| skvidal | ctyler: "we're not dead, yet" | 11:39 |
| stickster | ctyler: This should suffice, since LWN tends to attend and cover our meetings | 11:39 |
| spevack | stickster: can you confirm that everything you have permission to release has been released? In other words, that you are not sitting on any info that is allowed to be public. (I created this question from reading the chatter in -public) | 11:39 |
| spoleeba | spot, becacuse quite frankly...i do not trust laypress editorializing | 11:39 |
| quaid | stickster: or invite LWN specifically to that meeting | 11:39 |
| stickster | ctyler: I think announcements that say "We have nothing to announce yet" are worthless. | 11:39 |
| spot | i can confirm that, spevack. | 11:39 |
| spot | we are not sitting on anything we have permission to release. | 11:39 |
| ctyler | stickster: Yes, but "it's not dead" has value. | 11:40 |
| ctyler | a *lot* of value, sometimes | 11:40 |
| spoleeba | spot, i want a formal press opportunity..with a transscript..where everyone who is going to write about it..gets a chance to direct ask and have their questions not answered | 11:40 |
| spot | spoleeba: i'm not opposed to that. ;) | 11:40 |
| quaid | stickster: to be honest, I agree; I just caught up on the f-ambassadors-l thread where you responded with reasonable information, and that was a month ago; it would have been OK to have bounced that same info as a blog post or something. | 11:41 |
| spoleeba | spot, and if laypress dotn show up to that..and then editorialize about it..im going to be there..and im going to tear their heartless heart out | 11:41 |
| spot | heck, stickster is ex-gov. He's good at it. :) | 11:41 |
| quaid | people specifically asked along the way for 'nothing new, not forgotten' updates. | 11:41 |
| f13 | spoleeba: going back to QA efforts. My goal with F11 is to stop dreaming about what we /could/ do in a grand future with perfect tools, and instead concentrate on what we can accomplish /now/ with the tools we have /now/. We've spent too much time dreaming and trying to create this great wonderful thing and in the mean time failures are slipping through the cracks that we could easily catch | 11:42 |
| spevack | Sonar_Guy notes that along with The Incident, there was discussion about creating a security response plan for if/when there is a next time. Where are we with that? | 11:43 |
| stickster | Sonar_Guy: Good question, mmcgrath and I are meeting at FUDCon (with any other interested parties) to talk about this very subject. | 11:43 |
| stickster | We want to prepare a communications plan that sets out reasonable expectations and timeline so that people know what to expect, and when. | 11:43 |
| stickster | And to the maximum possible extent, will make disclosures to the community as early as possible, along the whole process. | 11:44 |
| skvidal | stickster: you sure nothing could come out about The Incident before friday? | 11:45 |
| skvidal | stickster: it would make a nice icebreaker for fudcon | 11:45 |
| skvidal | and it would mean I wouldn't have to remember what we can't say | 11:45 |
| skvidal | which is a plus b/c my muddled mind has been slowly losing containment on which things fall into which box, So I default to not saying ANYTHING which just sucks | 11:45 |
| stickster | It does suck, and I'm incredibly sensitive to the fact that Fedora people have been put in a situation where they can't be fully open and transparent to our community. | 11:46 |
| stickster | I think the whole community needs to understand that the very few Fedora people who have substantial knowledge about The Incident are not being quiet because they want to. | 11:48 |
| spevack | i'm putting out one last call for questions/follow ups in -public | 11:48 |
| * spevack likes how others are capitalizing it now :) | 11:48 | |
| spoleeba | skvidal, oh man...i can just imagine the contorted look on your face at fudcon when you try to mentally parse if you can say something | 11:48 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, and then the sad clown face at the end of the process when you give up | 11:49 |
| stickster | spoleeba: It will look much the same as when I offer him a bite of my hamburger | 11:49 |
| spevack | viking_ice reaffirms his belief that any info (even if the info is no new info) is better than silence. | 11:49 |
| ctyler | +1 | 11:49 |
| f13 | there are two camps to that | 11:49 |
| f13 | on the one side, saying "we haven't forgotten this, but we still can't tell you anything" does help people know that we haven't forgotten it | 11:50 |
| f13 | on the other side it's continual invitiations to flame and rant and whatever | 11:50 |
| stickster | And then there's the inevitable follow up questions that prompts. When one can't answer those either, has the announcement really been anything other than a red herring? | 11:50 |
| ctyler | "Comments on this post are closed" | 11:50 |
| stickster | It's simply not appropriate to comment further until there's something substantial to tell people. | 11:51 |
| f13 | I agree there is value to letting people know we haven't forgotten, but that has to be balanced with how often we poke people in the eye with "ha ha we still can't tell you!" | 11:51 |
| stickster | And I have every intention of doing that, as I pointed out in the last announcement we made. | 11:51 |
| stickster | ^^ my last comment was in response to myself, not f13 | 11:51 |
| stickster | spevack: Are there any other questions waiting? | 11:54 |
| spevack | viking_ice asks what is in place for people who can't be at FUDCon to participate in some sessions. | 11:54 |
| stickster | ctyler: Take it away! | 11:54 |
| ctyler | We're audiocasting one stream and video-recording as many as possible for later posting on the web. | 11:54 |
| ctyler | Where "as many as possible" == 3, maybe 4 right now, more if we get extra camcorders | 11:55 |
| ctyler | Watch the planet for audio stream info. | 11:55 |
| ctyler | (All this applies to the Saturday sessions) | 11:56 |
| stickster | I think ctyler also put a call out for anyone else willing to bring a camcorder for recording purposes, yes? | 11:57 |
| ctyler | yes, x2 | 11:57 |
| quaid | do you want more audio capability? | 11:58 |
| spevack | there are no other questions in -public, FWIW | 11:58 |
| ctyler | quaid: We thought we'd start small, better to stream one well than go too big and fall flat | 11:58 |
| quaid | ctyler: not streaming, capture | 11:59 |
| quaid | agreed on the size of the bite we are taking this time | 11:59 |
| spoleeba | quaid, thats a microphone investment still i think | 11:59 |
| f13 | a nibble is better than naught | 11:59 |
| ctyler | quaid: my own personality is to want to do things well -- too well. Looking at mdomsch's OLS videos made me realize that a camcorder can do an adequate capture of a session | 12:00 |
| spoleeba | quaid, once you know that your equipment works as expected..you can duplicate the purchase and record more next time | 12:00 |
| * mdomsch resembles adequate :-) | 12:00 | |
| ctyler | I was planning too complicated until I realized that Matt had done a great job with a single device :-) | 12:01 |
| quaid | actually, i agree about camcorder audio, just don't tell Colby that :D | 12:01 |
| mdomsch | to be fair, at OLS, the speakers are mic'd | 12:01 |
| ctyler | True that | 12:01 |
| mdomsch | if the classrooms we're in have mics, that'd be way cool | 12:02 |
| mdomsch | somehow I doubt it though | 12:02 |
| stickster | mdomsch: I don't think they do, judging by the site info, which has been very complete in other respects | 12:02 |
| ctyler | I don't think they're big enough to warrant it, looking at the photos | 12:02 |
| stickster | I could envision spending actual funds on audio capture equipment and including that with anything we ship to support future Fedora events | 12:02 |
| spoleeba | stickster, "actual" funds | 12:02 |
| quaid | stickster: I expect e.g. NA Ambassadors will take some lessons from this weekend and work that in to budget in the future | 12:03 |
| ctyler | basic wireless lavs are cheap these days, if we had budget to do some at some point that would be awesome | 12:03 |
| stickster | So along with the schwag we box up a mic in an appropriate container to record the event | 12:03 |
| stickster | (or mics) | 12:03 |
| ctyler | perfect | 12:03 |
| quaid | yep, that's the Event_Box | 12:03 |
| * spevack can find the budget, if we can believe that things will be cared for. but we have to take that chance, of course. trust in the people who have the event box | 12:03 | |
| spoleeba | spevack, can you put a depreciation timescale into that..so that you can expect to need a replacement box in say 2 years? | 12:04 |
| spoleeba | spevack, or 10..or something | 12:04 |
| spevack | sure, whatever | 12:04 |
| spevack | so, who owns figuring out what we need to buy? | 12:05 |
| * spevack only owns paying for it :) | 12:05 | |
| quaid | Ambassadors | 12:05 |
| spevack | ok i'll take it to Ambassadors list | 12:06 |
| stickster | spevack: quaid: ctyler: I would recommend that in addition to any lavs we also think about a powered room-type condenser mic | 12:07 |
| spoleeba | stickster, for questions? | 12:07 |
| spevack | also, i'd like a pony | 12:07 |
| stickster | And a jetski. | 12:07 |
| mdomsch | the parabolic laser mics are too expensive? :-) | 12:07 |
| stickster | OK, weeds. | 12:07 |
| ctyler | pony on a jetski | 12:07 |
| spoleeba | stickster, bah... snowmachine | 12:07 |
| stickster | spevack: Any other issues left? | 12:07 |
| spevack | nope | 12:08 |
| stickster | All right, let's call this one unless there's an objection | 12:08 |
| ctyler | -1 objection, +1 wrap | 12:08 |
| spoleeba | please...end this meeting..end my obligation to be at these meetings | 12:08 |
| spevack | spoleeba: watch your words or you'll "volunteer" to be the moderator | 12:08 |
| mdomsch | spoleeba missed stickster's thanks at the start of the meeting | 12:09 |
| spoleeba | mdomsch, bah | 12:09 |
| mdomsch | "you are dismissed, with the thanks of the court" | 12:09 |
| stickster | spoleeba: You'll receive the roses later :-) | 12:09 |
| spoleeba | stickster, humbug | 12:09 |
| mdomsch | your check for $1.32 will be sent to your employer to cover lost wages | 12:09 |
| stickster | "This moment of silence has been duly noted and deducted from your pay." | 12:10 |
| stickster | Thanks, everyone, for coming and for your participation! | 12:10 |
| * quaid +1 wrap | 12:10 | |
| stickster | Thanks to all the community members for their questions too | 12:10 |
| stickster | spevack: Fine job moderating as always, thanks | 12:11 |
| spevack | my pleasure | 12:11 |
| spevack | peaceout | 12:11 |
| spoleeba | mdomsch, and the cost of the stamp will be deducted...of course | 12:11 |
#fedora-board-public
| spevack | inode0: i will ask it | 11:02 |
|---|---|---|
| inode0 | What are the thoughts about the effectiveness of the townhall meetings now that some time has passed to reflect on them? | 11:02 |
| inode0 | hard to complain about that answer :) | 11:11 |
| spevack | are there any other questions for the Fedora board? | 11:11 |
| * inode0 meant all of them but any thoughts about them are welcome | 11:12 | |
| jjmcd | New F11 feature - IRC rotten fruit | 11:12 |
| spevack | jjmcd: ? | 11:12 |
| pingou_laptop | <spot> people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings. | 11:12 |
| spevack | any questions.... about anything related to Fedora? | 11:13 |
| * nirik will ask the obvious one again | 11:13 | |
| nirik | any new news on the breakin? ;) | 11:14 |
| spevack | nirik: added to the queue :) | 11:14 |
| * spevack should just ask that one by default first each month | 11:14 | |
| * inode0 notes that lack of attendance by candidates was an issue for him ... not just the audience | 11:15 | |
| spevack | you mean that some candidates did not attend? | 11:15 |
| caillon | spevack, make the question sound more exasperated each time though | 11:16 |
| spevack | caillon: ok :) | 11:16 |
| inode0 | yes, making it hard to compare them with the ones who did attend | 11:16 |
| vwbusguy- | I have concerns with what we are doing for testing | 11:16 |
| vwbusguy- | the dbus / packagekit thing was one issue | 11:17 |
| inode0 | maybe I should just say that it seemed to weigh in favor of candidates who did attend for those not real familiar with everyone to begin with | 11:17 |
| vwbusguy- | but a new kernel that takes out sound for a large user base just happened too | 11:17 |
| vwbusguy- | Are any measures being taken to revise the way we test things before they are deployed? | 11:17 |
| Southern_Gentlem | <spoleeba> "...is a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist" nominates spoleeba for that position | 11:17 |
| spevack | vwbusguy-: good question. | 11:18 |
| spevack | i'll ask it | 11:18 |
| EvilBob | I liked the town hall sessions that I attended, I found them quite helpful. | 11:18 |
| viking_ice | This has been discussed a bit on the QA channel.. | 11:19 |
| Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy-, links to bugzilla help as well | 11:20 |
| vwbusguy- | sure, I'll just put a query up showing my CC list, haha | 11:21 |
| quaid | Southern_Gentlem: oh, that's one of the reasons Jef and I are happily off the Board, now we can go back to being iconoclasts | 11:21 |
| spevack | nirik: your question is next | 11:21 |
| quaid | "I'm a divider, not a healer." | 11:21 |
| pingou_laptop | in reaction to f13 sentence, could the users be warned in such case ? | 11:23 |
| pingou_laptop | so that people with those sound card would only update if they want | 11:23 |
| caillon | it should have been part of the update text. was it not? | 11:24 |
| caillon | then again, most people won't read update text for everything they install. | 11:25 |
| pingou_laptop | that's one and the other is that you have that text when you are updating... | 11:25 |
| inode0 | please no popups :) | 11:25 |
| pingou_laptop | so too late :/ | 11:25 |
| vwbusguy- | perhaps have a sign off on some common hardware fo rupdates | 11:26 |
| vwbusguy- | we collect smolt profiles | 11:26 |
| caillon | pingou_laptop, if you use packagekit, it will have the text there if you click on the individual update. | 11:26 |
| vwbusguy- | do we use them? | 11:26 |
| jjmcd | Perhaps there needs to be a separate admon/warning text | 11:26 |
| pingou_laptop | maybe I should try pk then ^^ | 11:26 |
| inode0 | can introduction of breakage go into the release notes which can easily be read before updating? | 11:26 |
| jjmcd | caillon: When you have three dozen updates how many of those do you read | 11:26 |
| caillon | jjmcd, i honestly do read them all. | 11:27 |
| spevack | Any other followup questions on this particular topic? | 11:27 |
| jjmcd | But if there was one place to look for uh-oh's | 11:27 |
| vwbusguy- | maybe have something as obvious as the Ubuntu + firefox EULA thing, haha | 11:27 |
| caillon | vwbusguy-, you mean the fedora thing. | 11:28 |
| pingou_laptop | spevack, just, somewhere is better than nowhere (related to the announce ml) | 11:28 |
| vwbusguy- | caillon, just meant in the way it was meant to grab users intentions... nvm, not a discussion I want to get into here | 11:28 |
| vwbusguy- | *attention | 11:28 |
| Southern_Gentlem | why not put that issue in the changelogs of the kernel and send a message on fedora -aanounce | 11:29 |
| SMParrish | tell f13 I can add the feed to liferea since I'm the package maintainer | 11:29 |
| pingou_laptop | +1 | 11:29 |
| caillon | vwbusguy-, i know exactly what you're talking about. it's the thing that I personally worked with Mozilla on for months. | 11:29 |
| caillon | vwbusguy-, you were simply assigning the credit to the wrong place. that's all i was commenting on. | 11:30 |
| viking_ice | packagekit needs to be able to revert to the older version ( rpm -Uhv --oldpackage ) then users could just simply revert if the *new* package breaks things for them.. | 11:30 |
| quaid | inode0: did you see mizmo's latest post about all the chatty desktop :) | 11:30 |
| EvilBob | stickster: default = -1 | 11:30 |
| inode0 | quaid: yes and it scared me :) | 11:30 |
| quaid | inode0: we don't have a release notes that rolls with updates though | 11:30 |
| inode0 | quaid: sorry, I meant the changelog | 11:31 |
| quaid | jjmcd: there could be a wiki page, but again, how do we tell people about it | 11:31 |
| quaid | inode0: ah, yes | 11:31 |
| quaid | caillon++ on the Fedora thing, btw :) | 11:31 |
| jjmcd | Trouble is, one person's wheat is another's chaff | 11:32 |
| caillon | quaid :) | 11:32 |
| vwbusguy- | unfortunately wiki is not a good method | 11:32 |
| Southern_Gentlem | viking_ice, in the case of the kernel you should have the old kernel anyways | 11:32 |
| skvidal | viking_ice: reverting is A LOT more troublesome than you think | 11:32 |
| inode0 | if people care they should already read the changelog I would think | 11:32 |
| vwbusguy- | If users checked ?Bugs/Common we'd have a lot less of them in #Fedora | 11:32 |
| vwbusguy- | */Bugs | 11:32 |
| quaid | vwbusguy-: that's true | 11:33 |
| vwbusguy- | quaid, what about sending out errata, like in RHEL systems | 11:33 |
| viking_ice | skvidal: depends on what you are reverting :) | 11:34 |
| skvidal | viking_ice: which is, of course, the problem | 11:34 |
| * EvilBob reverts viking_ice | 11:34 | |
| quaid | vwbusguy-: we do, it's called 'package-announce' and it's freaking full of messages | 11:34 |
| * viking_ice rev back | 11:34 | |
| quaid | vwbusguy-: but you mean, like RHN which knows what you have installed? | 11:35 |
| EvilBob | package-announce is worthless | 11:35 |
| skvidal | quaid: which we can't do for privacy reasons | 11:35 |
| quaid | vwbusguy-: what we don't have is such a creature, although we potentially could | 11:35 |
| quaid | skvidal: well, if people subscribed, etc. | 11:35 |
| vwbusguy- | quaid, yes, but then again you aren't going to have nearly as many updates pushed in RHEL either | 11:35 |
| jjmcd | but giving users granular control over an RSS feed might do the trick | 11:35 |
| skvidal | quaid: and we'd need infrastructure to handle all those users going to a common place | 11:35 |
| skvidal | quaid: which we do NOT have | 11:35 |
| skvidal | to be fair the yum-security plugin can help with a lot of this | 11:36 |
| quaid | nope, that would be a big initiative | 11:36 |
| skvidal | it can give the user the info about updates they want | 11:36 |
| jds2001 | spevack: no, it's The Incident(TM) :) | 11:36 |
| vwbusguy- | two things about smolt - if we could interface with smolt to get messages out specific to hardware setups that would be great. But why don't we look at common hardware setups in smolt and test to those hardware setups? | 11:36 |
| quaid | skvidal: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-isv-sig-list/2008-December/msg00016.html when you get a chance | 11:36 |
| * pingou_laptop send rotten fruit to spot | 11:37 | |
| spevack | jds2001: right | 11:37 |
| spevack | :) | 11:37 |
| nirik | spevack: thanks for the florishes. ;) | 11:37 |
| * quaid shoots Mailman for the message formatting on that page, *ick* | 11:37 | |
| * jds2001 hurls rotten fruit at stickster and spot | 11:37 | |
| nirik | soon is good, of course now would be better, but hey. ;) | 11:37 |
| viking_ice | Last time I heard sticksters is just sitting on that info.. | 11:37 |
| Sonar_Guy | also along with nirik question has a security plan been drafted as was discussed in the mailing list discussion | 11:38 |
| pingou_laptop | and did the signature process changed ? | 11:39 |
| spevack | pingou_laptop: what do you mean? | 11:40 |
| spevack | any follow ups or new questions? | 11:41 |
| pingou_laptop | IIRC the workflow to change the package was supposed to be changed, did it happen already ? (I might remember wrongly) | 11:41 |
| spevack | is this in reference to the testing topic, or the security incident topic? | 11:42 |
| skvidal | security incident topic, I think | 11:42 |
| Sonar_Guy | spevack: along with the incident there was discussion of creating a security plan, what has happened with that? | 11:42 |
| Sonar_Guy | stickster: wish I could be there but alas work does not currently permit the current schedule. | 11:44 |
| spevack | stickster: i would be interested in participating in that session | 11:45 |
| * nirik would also like to attend, time permitting. | 11:45 | |
| viking_ice | hum so RH is not permitting.. Anyway leaving people in the dark is ( certainly for this long time ) is not the way to go.... | 11:45 |
| * quaid will try to be there, too | 11:45 | |
| * pingou_laptop wishes he could.. | 11:46 | |
| quaid | viking_ice: unless it *is* the way to got ... | 11:46 |
| ianweller | what is The Incident they're referring to? :/ | 11:46 |
| spevack | pingou_laptop: if they can figure out a way for me to paticipate as a remotee, they can figure out way for you to also :) | 11:46 |
| nirik | viking_ice: you do realize that fedora people are trying as hard as they can to release info, but this is all legal stuff, so it has to be approved by lawyers. | 11:46 |
| quaid | viking_ice: the problem is, when you have something that could cross in to legal/law enforcement grounds | 11:46 |
| * vwbusguy- reserves his verdict until we have 'official' information | 11:46 | |
| quaid | viking_ice: you *have* to trust the incident response team | 11:46 |
| ianweller | is this new today? | 11:47 |
| jjmcd | ianweller: Hardly | 11:47 |
| spevack | ianweller: we're talking about the thing from august or september, whenever it was | 11:47 |
| ianweller | spevack: oh. ok | 11:47 |
| spevack | thus the capitalizations :) | 11:47 |
| pingou_laptop | spevack, would be great ! | 11:47 |
| ianweller | i called it the Great Catastrophe of August | 11:47 |
| ianweller | ;) | 11:47 |
| EvilBob | "The Incident" | 11:48 |
| ianweller | good thing nothing bad happened today though, i guess! | 11:48 |
| EvilBob | coming to a theater near you | 11:48 |
| spevack | ianweller: your glass is half full, sir | 11:48 |
| spevack | any other questions for the board? | 11:48 |
| viking_ice | any info is better then no info ( some progress reports for example from the Team incident ) | 11:48 |
| * mmcgrath wonders if anyone else was asked about the break during christmas from friends and family. | 11:49 | |
| EvilBob | mmcgrath: I was | 11:50 |
| spevack | mmcgrath: i'm still trying to get my family past "so wait, they pay you to work on something that you give away for free" | 11:50 |
| mmcgrath | heh | 11:50 |
| ianweller | spevack: hey, same here! | 11:50 |
| ianweller | er | 11:50 |
| pingou_laptop | spevack, g'd luck with that ! | 11:50 |
| ianweller | mmcgrath: ^^ | 11:50 |
| ianweller | ;) | 11:50 |
| pingou_laptop | I am to | 11:50 |
| ianweller | er, yeah, actually, towards spevack. god i'm confused | 11:50 |
| spevack | ianweller: i'm happy to have another chat with your dad if necessary :) | 11:51 |
| skvidal | spevack: hahahaha | 11:51 |
| ianweller | spevack: no, they're cool with it. ;) | 11:51 |
| spevack | i know! | 11:51 |
| ianweller | something to keep me out of trouble! | 11:52 |
| lmacken | maybe we should have an Incident roundtable discussion at FUDCon to talk about policies/procedures/infrastructure that has come out of it, along with other ways to handle this situation better in the future ? | 11:52 |
| pingou_laptop | isn't it already planned ? | 11:52 |
| skvidal | pingou_laptop: it is | 11:52 |
| * lmacken hasn't checked the schedule in a while | 11:52 | |
| lmacken | good | 11:52 |
| pingou_laptop | :) | 11:53 |
| quaid | lmacken: yep, stickster mentioned it and invited all interested | 11:53 |
| lmacken | good good.. it'll give me a chance to talk about the new IDS that is in the works :) | 11:53 |
| viking_ice | will there be live streaming from fudcon so fedorians that are unable to attend might be able to do so via irc channel ? | 11:53 |
| viking_ice | and participate.. | 11:54 |
| ianweller | they're working on live audio streaming... i dunno about video | 11:54 |
| ianweller | i haven't been following too closely | 11:54 |
| spevack | you're about to get your answer ianweller | 11:54 |
| pingou_laptop | could those info be grouped somewhere ? wiki/blog/announce ml ? | 11:55 |
| jds2001 | already on the wiki on the main fudcon page | 11:56 |
| pingou_laptop | ok | 11:56 |
| jds2001 | if you have a camcorder and can bring it, please do! | 11:56 |
| viking_ice | Cant some money be spent in "conference" HW gear that could be used on fedora conferences world wide | 11:56 |
| jds2001 | ambassadors budget is fairly tight | 11:57 |
| spevack | viking_ice: we could look into it | 11:57 |
| jds2001 | we tried some things for Q4 but it was denied, iirc - spevack would know more than I :) | 11:57 |
| ianweller | ctyler: if i don't get around to posting a streaming link in #fudcon's /topic, i hope that you can :) | 11:57 |
| spevack | viking_ice: i have no idea what that sort of stuff costs | 11:57 |
| spevack | jds2001: we might want to revisit that in 3 weeks, since we'll be closer to the end of the quarter and if there's money leftover, we should spend it | 11:57 |
| ctyler | ianweller: will do | 11:58 |
| EvilBob | If people steal banners and other stuff (IIRC this happened in the past), you think they will not think twice about a camera? | 11:58 |
| spevack | EvilBob: as long as the camera isn't fedora branded :) | 11:58 |
| EvilBob | lol | 11:58 |
| quaid | EvilBob: bingo, that's a key problem for any hardware | 11:58 |
| quaid | we need people to hold it tight all day, etc. | 11:59 |
| Fingaz | have you tried to see if the people you are renting the space from for the conference has cameras that can be used as part of the event? | 11:59 |
| EvilBob | we all have felt safe leaving our laptops laying around at Fudcons I think, but community hardware... Idunno. | 11:59 |
| viking_ice | EvilBob: one would think the people that are responsible for using the HW ( recording/mixing ) would keep and eye on it.. | 11:59 |
| viking_ice | +this is something that needs to be light since it would travel from conference to conference.. | 12:00 |
| Fingaz | typically hotels will have that kind of equipment around. Maybe not a lot of it but some | 12:00 |
| jds2001 | Fingaz: we're at MIT, a university | 12:01 |
| jds2001 | not a hotel or anything. | 12:01 |
| quaid | Fingaz: yes, we talked with e.g. MIT groups, no bites, or anything we could afford | 12:02 |
| EvilBob | Thanks to the Board for the public meeting. | 12:02 |
| Fingaz | haha just point your webcam at them and start recording. man that would suck | 12:02 |
| quaid | heh, herlo did that last time, it was better than nothing | 12:03 |
| inode0 | spevack: I'll add this to the agenda tonight and try to get herlo to volunteer :) | 12:06 |
| spevack | inode0: perfect | 12:06 |
| spevack | inode0: let's spend the money in q4 | 12:06 |
| spevack | we'll add it to what i already allocated for you guys | 12:06 |
| inode0 | ok | 12:06 |
| quaid | yeah, that was what I was leaning toward; we'd learn stuff this weekend with herlo, then he can take the action back to FAMnA | 12:07 |
| viking_ice | Hum perhaps Fedora Camera crew that follows the equipment where ever it goes.. | 12:07 |
| quaid | viking_ice: we tried that, but RHT won't fund e.g. Colby Hoke for Fedora full time :. | 12:07 |
| viking_ice | the knowledge on how to setup and use atleast needs to be spread around.. | 12:07 |
| jds2001 | you paying the salray and travel? :) | 12:07 |
| quaid | that's true; should be in a binder that travels with the equipment. | 12:08 |
| jds2001 | and Colby could write that, best practices, etc. | 12:08 |
| jds2001 | which btw, what's Colby bringing of RHT's, since he's in the van from RDU? | 12:09 |
| viking_ice | Basically you need a head guy that come with the equipment hooks it up and uses then volunteers to film the stuff.. | 12:09 |
| viking_ice | running around with mic and so fourth.. | 12:09 |
| viking_ice | And this actually is a full time job.. | 12:09 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: this person must be paid. | 12:09 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: and travel. Are you willing to foot the bill? We'd gladly take it :) | 12:10 |
| viking_ice | wont women and booze suffice ;) | 12:10 |
| spevack | thanks for your time, all. | 12:10 |
| spevack | the official part of this meeting is over :) | 12:10 |
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