BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Feb-17

Attendees

• tk009
• jds2001
• iarlyy
• mcepl
• adamw
• comphappy
• hyee
• John5342

Previous Meeting/Mailing list Follow-up

• Continued discussion on team and individual goals for the F11 development cycle.
• Status of metrics reports
• Addition of BugZappers signatures for bugzilla

• Reviving Bug Days (this was missed as we ran out of time, but will be on the agenda for the next meeting.)

Current

• After continued discussion about BugZappers goals for this development cycle, the decision was made by vote to set our objective to that of stabilizing the new bug count against the core component list. We will be using bugzilla's built-in report capability to monitor our progress until the metrics reports are in place.
• comphappy provided an update to the status of the metrics reports. No definitive time set for when they will be operational, however excellent progress has been made. Thanks comphappy!
• The proposal by adamw to have signatures for BugZappers on bugzilla was put to a vote and passed. This will be implemented using a Greasemonkey script, and as such, its use will be voluntary yet highly encouraged. Rahul Sundaram's proposal to "...look at GNOME Bugzilla customizations which include automatically indicating who the person responding to bugzilla report is, a point system, easy stock response system etc." will be discussed in future for possible implementation.

Follow-up Actions

• All triagers are encouraged to continue the discussion to refine and/or expound on the newly stated goal for the BugZappers during this development cycle.

• No specific individual tasks were assigned during this meeting.

IRC Transscript

John5342	i am here but probably not taking part.	Feb 17 07:01
adamw	gflargle	Feb 17 07:01
tk009	=)	Feb 17 07:01
*adamw issues the customary West Coast Meeting Schedule Curse		Feb 17 07:01
tk009	anythink you want said in the meeting john?	Feb 17 07:02
tk009	lol	Feb 17 07:02
tk009	nice and early for you adam	Feb 17 07:02
John5342	not as such. am currently in hospital getting over meningitis so just not very with it	Feb 17 07:02
tk009	sorry to hear that, get better brother	Feb 17 07:02
John5342	am apparently over the worst so should be back proper next week	Feb 17 07:03
adamw	get well soon john	Feb 17 07:03
tk009	where is mcepl I know he was around	Feb 17 07:03
adamw	mcepl: wakey wakey	Feb 17 07:03
tk009	ok well I guess we get started	Feb 17 07:04
adamw	OK	Feb 17 07:04
tk009	oh how about hyee	Feb 17 07:05
adamw	sorry, call of nature, back in 3	Feb 17 07:05
tk009	I know he wanted to be here as well	Feb 17 07:05
hyee	here..I'm new	Feb 17 07:05
tk009	welcome	Feb 17 07:05
John5342	hyee: welcoe to the group then	Feb 17 07:05
hyee	thanks...I'm axious to get dirty	Feb 17 07:06
tk009	the only thing from last weeks meeting is the change to the component list, well that and the continued talk on goals	Feb 17 07:07
tk009	we were to follow up that meeting in the mailing list, that didn't really happen though	Feb 17 07:07
*jds2001 here		Feb 17 07:07
tk009	welcome brother =)	Feb 17 07:07
adamw	back	Feb 17 07:08
adamw	hyee: hi, welcome  :)	Feb 17 07:08
tk009	did anyone have thoughts on the goals for this development cycle? wb adam	Feb 17 07:08
adamw	nothing further than last week: keep it simple and pick the things already	Feb 17 07:09
hyee	sorry where are theses goals published	Feb 17 07:09
tk009	yes	Feb 17 07:10
iarlyy	BugZappers/Goals	Feb 17 07:10
tk009	well in an email, not really published	Feb 17 07:10
tk009	that isnt up to date	Feb 17 07:10
iarlyy	ops.	Feb 17 07:10
adamw	hyee: they haven't been agreed yet. they've been kicked about for like three weeks...	Feb 17 07:10
adamw	i figure when we can actually agree on what they are, they'll be put on the wiki :/	Feb 17 07:11
hyee	ok..I see them...is there more current updates	Feb 17 07:11
tk009	the goal I purposed last week was, set a goal to triage x numbers of bugs against a component from the new list	Feb 17 07:11
tk009	comphappy added to that, saying he felt we should stabilize the NEW bug count first	Feb 17 07:12
hyee	are these goals overall or for just a partiular release	Feb 17 07:12
adamw	hyee: that's not defined, it can be part of the discussion	Feb 17 07:12
tk009	if you have any idea's hyee this is the place for them	Feb 17 07:13
hyee	I have not really look at the scope as I'm still trying to get a handle on the scope	Feb 17 07:13
tk009	I know the feeling =)	Feb 17 07:14
adamw	it doesn't seem like enough people are here to sensibly set the goals :\	Feb 17 07:14
hyee	how many folks do we have doing this?	Feb 17 07:14
jds2001	dont know that we really know.	Feb 17 07:14
adamw	hyee: i'm fairly new too (though I'm working for RH). so far I've seen about 3-4 people actively doing bugzapping stuff.	Feb 17 07:15
adamw	hyee: so we definitely need more. =)	Feb 17 07:15
jds2001	adamw: how did this work in MDV?	Feb 17 07:15
adamw	let's have a 'welcome hyee and make him work' session in -bugzappers after this	Feb 17 07:15
jds2001	let's learn from experience here :D	Feb 17 07:16
adamw	for now i guess we should keep the meeting on track	Feb 17 07:16
hyee	yikes...are we going 10 knots against a 100 knot headwind or something else	Feb 17 07:16
adamw	jds2001: heh. sorry to disappoint you: equally badly =)	Feb 17 07:16
adamw	jds2001: MDV had about 3 active triagers. now I'm gone, 2. :P	Feb 17 07:16
jds2001	heh	Feb 17 07:16
hyee	that ok..I just need to know if it's bigger than a breadbox...	Feb 17 07:16
adamw	hyee: mostly people are running to stand still in their chosen areas (e.g. fcami does xorg)	Feb 17 07:17
adamw	hyee: overall I'm not sure what's happening, which is part of why comphappy (who isn't here right now) is writing a neat system that'll do stats for us	Feb 17 07:17
hyee	well it looks like I have an opportunity to really get dirty	Feb 17 07:17
adamw	hyee: for sure  :)	Feb 17 07:17
jds2001	hyee: oh yes  :)	Feb 17 07:18
tk009	it is hard to ask more of people that are already contributing, but that is what we are doing	Feb 17 07:18
tk009	asking to go a step further	Feb 17 07:18
adamw	hyee: there are active people who aren't here this morning - poelcat (who's sort of the bugzappers group leader), fcami for e.g.	Feb 17 07:18
tk009	jds2001 is the bugzapper leader	Feb 17 07:19
tk009	=)	Feb 17 07:19
jds2001	well, i founded it, I guess  :)	Feb 17 07:19
hyee	ok..where can I start...I'm new to this..but having being doing QA professionally for at least 10 years	Feb 17 07:19
jds2001	awesome.	Feb 17 07:19
adamw	jds2001: you're leader emeritus  ;)	Feb 17 07:19
jds2001	so you know what makes a bug actionable to a developer.	Feb 17 07:19
adamw	as i said...can we get through the meeting topics first?	Feb 17 07:19
jds2001	sure.	Feb 17 07:20
adamw	tk009: what's next?	Feb 17 07:20
tk009	have we decided to move past the goals	Feb 17 07:20
adamw	guess so	Feb 17 07:21
hyee	you mention someone is doing stats..what's the bug trend look like	Feb 17 07:21
tk009	I feeling is we shouldnt let any more time slip on finding our goals as a team or individually	Feb 17 07:21
hyee	that might give us a clue how we should look at the goals	Feb 17 07:22
tk009	yes	Feb 17 07:22
tk009	compahppy suggested we need to stabilize the NEW bug count	Feb 17 07:22
adamw	that would make sense to me as an initial short-term target	Feb 17 07:22
tk009	fro what I know...	Feb 17 07:22
hyee	how do we stablize the bug count...but setting the bar higher??	Feb 17 07:22
tk009	we cant see those numbers	Feb 17 07:22
tk009	only RH people can	Feb 17 07:23
adamw	hyee: btw, what 'stabilising' would mean is, having at least as many bugs triaged as are filed (they come in 'new', they go out 'assigned')	Feb 17 07:23
tk009	I think it's a good idea as well	Feb 17 07:23
adamw	comphappy: yaay, just the dude	Feb 17 07:23
hyee	that first pass look may need folks with more knowledge and expereince than me	Feb 17 07:24
comphappy	adamw: what did I break this time	Feb 17 07:24
tk009	hehe	Feb 17 07:24
adamw	comphappy: =) nothing, jut we'd been talking about your metrics	Feb 17 07:24
adamw	yaay, mcepl's here too	Feb 17 07:24
tk009	we were waiting for you and you grand plan =)	Feb 17 07:24
adamw	comphappy, mcepl - we were talking about goals and trying to set the damn things this time - you guys have any input into that?	Feb 17 07:25
comphappy	oh, well I just put a 120lbs robot in the mail that has been all my time for the last 6 weeks, so now my life can return to fedora	Feb 17 07:25
mcepl	all: I am sorry -- my computer crashed hard	Feb 17 07:25
comphappy	I can only be on for about 5min	Feb 17 07:25
adamw	comphappy: can you make another one to triage bugs? =)	Feb 17 07:26
mcepl	comphappy: what is the status of GM packaging?	Feb 17 07:26
comphappy	mcepl: I hit a wall with the local dir part which is key	Feb 17 07:26
adamw	comphappy: and since you're going to have to leave, can we get your vote on the signatures-for-triagers thing?	Feb 17 07:27
comphappy	I am waiting for some help from upstream on that	Feb 17 07:27
comphappy	+1	Feb 17 07:27
adamw	ok, thanks.	Feb 17 07:27
tk009	that was next after goals	Feb 17 07:27
comphappy	mcepl: that could be added to the GM script ?	Feb 17 07:27
comphappy	a "sign" button	Feb 17 07:27
jds2001	tk009: we can see pretty much whatever numbers we need.	Feb 17 07:28
adamw	mcepl: any input on goals? we were discussing comphappy's suggestion of first aiming simply to stabilize the NEW count.	Feb 17 07:28
mcepl	sorry, I am apparently really behind -- what's signatures-for-triagers?	Feb 17 07:28
tk009	we will go back to it mcepl	Feb 17 07:29
tk009	we got a bit ahead	Feb 17 07:29
tk009	we are still on goals	Feb 17 07:29
tk009	please	Feb 17 07:29
adamw	sorry, just wanted to make sure we got comphappy's vote before he had to leave.	Feb 17 07:29
comphappy	I was thinking of focusing on our core components though with the NEW count stabilization	Feb 17 07:29
tk009	+1	Feb 17 07:29
comphappy	the whole shabang was a little of a disaster last time	Feb 17 07:29
adamw	yep, works for me	Feb 17 07:29
tk009	how do we best go about implementing that	Feb 17 07:30
*comphappy makes a note to figure out how to track that in triage web		Feb 17 07:30
tk009	hehe	Feb 17 07:30
tk009	yes and tracking is important	Feb 17 07:30
comphappy	for now a bz report can give you a now figure for that	Feb 17 07:30
adamw	it would be possible to do it in the bugzilla report interface if comphappy moves to Guatemala and takes the code with him.	Feb 17 07:31
adamw	bit icky, but you can do it.	Feb 17 07:31
adamw	so that shouldn't be a problem.	Feb 17 07:31
comphappy	would have to be scripted still to run through the list of comp i think	Feb 17 07:31
*comphappy is running behind, sorry, see you all later		Feb 17 07:32
tk009	any idea on how many new bugs are reported per day?	Feb 17 07:32
tk009	be well brother	Feb 17 07:32
adamw	cya comp	Feb 17 07:32
adamw	for all components, if the random day I looked at this last week is accurate, ± 100	Feb 17 07:32
adamw	not sure for core components	Feb 17 07:32
jds2001	probably ~90  :)	Feb 17 07:33
adamw	ok, bit less - between 15th and 16th, 67 bugs were created	Feb 17 07:33
*jds2001 just guessing.		Feb 17 07:33
adamw	(you can do this with an advanced search)	Feb 17 07:33
tk009	given our numbers can we meet that goal?	Feb 17 07:33
adamw	i'd say that would be about 1-2hrs work per person per day, with current numbers...	Feb 17 07:34
tk009	so yes	Feb 17 07:34
tk009	=)	Feb 17 07:34
adamw	oh, 5 of those were Review Requests, which I don't think need triaging.	Feb 17 07:34
comphappy	comphappy:points to triage metrics http://www.brennanashton.com/triageweb/components you can take a look at one week of data there for any comp	Feb 17 07:34
adamw	actually, about 10.	Feb 17 07:35
tk009	so about 10 bugs per member per day	Feb 17 07:35
adamw	if everyone who shows up here or on the list gets to doing some active triaging, yep.	Feb 17 07:36
iarlyy	triageweb is in realtime? or only an example?	Feb 17 07:36
*adamw hides behind a rock		Feb 17 07:36
tk009	my triage suckage would be a bit pressed to do that	Feb 17 07:36
tk009	its real data but for example for now	Feb 17 07:36
comphappy	iralyy, it is still very alpha but will update every day when it goes a bit more live	Feb 17 07:36
comphappy	that was a sample of one week	Feb 17 07:36
iarlyy	ok	Feb 17 07:37
adamw	still, I think this shows it's a reasonable goal to shoot for...	Feb 17 07:38
tk009	ok I think we have a goal to shoot for here, stabilize new bug count	Feb 17 07:38
adamw	yaay.	Feb 17 07:38
tk009	are we agreed on this goal?	Feb 17 07:38
*adamw raises hand		Feb 17 07:38
hyee	ok..what do I know	Feb 17 07:38
adamw	iarlyy, mcepl?	Feb 17 07:39
mcepl	+1	Feb 17 07:39
iarlyy	+1	Feb 17 07:39
iarlyy	should have a way to identify that a bugzapper taking actions on a bug	Feb 17 07:39
tk009	that is next	Feb 17 07:40
adamw	;)	Feb 17 07:40
iarlyy	ah ok. :D	Feb 17 07:40
tk009	this goal needs more but this is a good start	Feb 17 07:41
tk009	ok lets move to bug signatures for bugzilla	Feb 17 07:42
tk009	we can continue the goals talk in the list and irc	Feb 17 07:42
adamw	hi kevin	Feb 17 07:43
tk009	kev is always early =)	Feb 17 07:43
adamw	let's make him triage =)	Feb 17 07:43
adamw	ok, signatures!	Feb 17 07:43
tk009	done already	Feb 17 07:43
tk009	never having done a GM script I dont know how hard it is or how long to implement	Feb 17 07:44
adamw	shall we explain signatures again for the lost?	Feb 17 07:45
tk009	yes please if you wont dam	Feb 17 07:45
tk009	I type to damn slow	Feb 17 07:45
tk009	let me try that again, please explain adam	Feb 17 07:46
adamw	OK	Feb 17 07:47
adamw	and now mcepl's back  :)	Feb 17 07:47
adamw	signatures is my proposal: it's simply that we have a text signature for bugzappers that is used whenever we work on a bug	Feb 17 07:47
mcepl	.yeah, Rawhide is fun  ;-)	Feb 17 07:47
adamw	it would just say something like "Fedora Bugzappers group" with a link to the Wiki space	Feb 17 07:47
adamw	mcepl: i'm on rawhide, works fine here  ;)	Feb 17 07:47
adamw	point of this is a) makes it obvious when bugzappers are working on a bug, b) explains to reporters that we're not the developers, c) raises visibility of the group	Feb 17 07:48
mcepl	OK, combination of Rawhide, vpnc, and couple of other ingredients makes my life busy  ;-)	Feb 17 07:48
*adamw stabs vpnc in the eye		Feb 17 07:48
tk009	I thought the wording was good and it lets everyone know who the triagers are	Feb 17 07:48
adamw	so, anyone have comments or voting on the proposal?	Feb 17 07:48
tk009	those that dont want to use can not install the GM script	Feb 17 07:49
mcepl	adamw: -1 or at least needs more talk -- let me explain	Feb 17 07:49
adamw	OK	Feb 17 07:49
mcepl	oh, it is NOT mandatory, right?	Feb 17 07:49
adamw	er. didn't specify that either way.	Feb 17 07:49
tk009	correct	Feb 17 07:49
mcepl	I know that many developers are pissed off from needless comments (and you will be too -- believe me)	Feb 17 07:49
tk009	we have to let people make that choice	Feb 17 07:49
tk009	explain please mcepl	Feb 17 07:50
tk009	that is 2 -1's by the way	Feb 17 07:50
tk009	there was one in the list as well	Feb 17 07:51
mcepl	moreover, when you make comment it is obvious who made it; maybe ask bugzilla maintainers to give you something to the name, so that it will write "Comment #5 From Matej Cepl <Fedora bug triager> <date>".	Feb 17 07:51
mcepl	which cannot be done by GM, but it should be possible to do it with cooperation from bugzilla folks.	Feb 17 07:51
tk009	right now mcepl...	Feb 17 07:51
tk009	if I triage a bug no one knows who tk009 is	Feb 17 07:52
tk009	you they know =)	Feb 17 07:52
mcepl	... when would signature be added?	Feb 17 07:52
mcepl	(infamous vigilant on RH bugzilla Matej Cepl ;-))	Feb 17 07:52
adamw	mcepl: that would work, but it's a bit subtle - it can quite easily be missed.	Feb 17 07:52
mcepl	well, it should be there just for those who are interested in such things	Feb 17 07:53
adamw	mcepl: i'm confused as to exactly what your objection is. this doesn't add anything to the volume of comments left by triagers. all it does is add a couple of lines to each comment to clarify who the person is...	Feb 17 07:53
adamw	mcepl: how do I know if I'm going to be interested or not? =)	Feb 17 07:53
mcepl	Oh, OK -- so when I switch bug from NEW to ASSIGNED or clear needinfo bit, nothing would be added?	Feb 17 07:53
adamw	again, that's an implementation detail, but we could do it that way, certainly	Feb 17 07:54
adamw	and it would probably work fine, thinking about it	Feb 17 07:54
adamw	the proposal is basically 'when leaving a comment, have a signature on it'	Feb 17 07:54
tk009	I thought of it as just an addition to our comments	Feb 17 07:55
adamw	i'm happy with agreeing not to add a comment where you otherwise wouldn't, that's fine.	Feb 17 07:55
tk009	saying we commented and we are a triager	Feb 17 07:55
mcepl	then we could just edit strings in GM scripts plus add a button "add signature to the comment box" ... sure, I can do that.	Feb 17 07:55
tk009	that is all we are doing here =)	Feb 17 07:56
adamw	could the gm script just do it automatically when sending a comment, or is that unworkable?	Feb 17 07:56
mcepl	no, because I don't how to distinguish ... err, actually I know ... yes, I can do it.	Feb 17 07:56
adamw	(that could be optional...i dunno if gm is that sophisticated though)	Feb 17 07:56
adamw	still, though, seems like we can basically do it well enough to work. OK  :) thanks for that...	Feb 17 07:56
tk009	ok we are decided then	Feb 17 07:57
adamw	tk009: what was the -1 on the list? let me look that up...	Feb 17 07:57
mcepl	if the length of text in the comment box is >0, then this text would be appended to the end of the comment. Is that good?	Feb 17 07:57
adamw	i don't see one - rahul made a *further* suggestion, but it wasn't a -1	Feb 17 07:57
tk009	we are about out of time today, we should continue on bugzappers and of course o the list.	Feb 17 07:58
adamw	mcepl: works for me, yep. we may want to make it optional if some people might not want to sign all of their comments, or if it can't be made optional, not do it and just rely on a manual button	Feb 17 07:58
tk009	well his issue is mine as well	Feb 17 07:58
adamw	but we can hash that out on the list.	Feb 17 07:58
tk009	I use so many names none match up	Feb 17 07:58
adamw	hyee: still around?	Feb 17 07:58
hyee	yep	Feb 17 07:59
tk009	should we continue in bugzappers	Feb 17 07:59
adamw	hyee: OK - if you pop into #fedora-bugzappers , we can all help you get started  :)	Feb 17 07:59
tk009	yes	Feb 17 07:59
hyee	ok	Feb 17 07:59
tk009	thank you everyone for coming today, anything before we close?	Feb 17 07:59
tk009	that's a wrap then, see you in bugzappers	Feb 17 08:00

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